EPTThis can be viable build but not to take fast third with more likely to make 2base push and take third behind it.
[G]NaNiwa's PvZ gateway expand into phoenix build - Page 3
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
This can be viable build but not to take fast third with more likely to make 2base push and take third behind it. | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On August 24 2012 16:43 TheKleszcz wrote: Hi! I'm a novice player and I've begun testing it against AI. Instead of early expanding the computer almost always goes for Zergling/Roach rush. How do you adjust your strategy if you scout an incoming rush? I've found it's much harder to initially harass with your 1st Zealot if they have Roaches. Sorry for the late reply. There's no need to pressure a zerg that's still on 1 base, the zealot is of course quite useless against roaches. With the stalker you can stick around to see what he's up to untill his speed is done. Use the timings in the tutorial to determine when your opponents speed can be done based off his gas timing. You have until 24 seconds after the pool to get your probe in his base to take a last peek at his gas before the zerglings come out. With this build you can hold anything as long as you scout it in time. So the timing when you scout an incoming rush is important. Did you scout his gas timing, his roach warren timing or did you see the attack coming when it already was halfway across the map? Is you opponent on 1 base, 2 base or 3 bases? When your opponent is still on 1 base (and mining gas) I recommend building the wall with 2 cannons before the nexus. If your opponent is on 2 bases I recommend using your first phoenix to scout his base, you can always make a 2nd cannon early if you suspect your opponent might be up to something. Don't forget to place your zealot at the watchtower and use the stalker to kite the roaches to stall the attack. I hope this is somewhat usefull, I'm not used to 1 base play from zerg, especially not roaches. I'm not sure what league you are in or what level you set the AI to. If you provide me with a replay or the build order your opponent is doing I might be able to help you more. | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On August 27 2012 20:38 ThatGuy89 wrote: ive tried this a few times in high plat, and it doesnt show me any results. Every game ive done this, ive just had the zerg all in me - which is successful for him in most cases - so it seems pretty pointless. If his all in doesnt work it just leaves us both a bit crippled. Are there maps where its better/worse to do this on? I think the build is very precise when it comes to dealing with all-ins, which can lead to a lot of frustration when you at first try to work with it. I don't think if you hold an all-in, that you are both crippled. It of course depends on the all-in. I'll try to do a write-up on scouting: Your first scout it of course the probe scout (at 9 or 11). You get in his base and see the pool timing. If it is early (6-10pool) you can chronoboost out a zealot then chase the ling out of your base when the stalker comes out. Try to get your natural wall up asap to deal with a possible speedling follow-up. It is very difficult to scout the zerg because of the early queen. If it isn't a early pool check for the gas. Even though unlikely, still very possible. If your opponent goes for something like 14gas 14pool I don't recommend poking with the stalker because you really can't lose it. Get your wall up at your natural before the nexus and get 2 sentries before getting the stargate. Make sure to chronoboost out workers so this will not set you behind in economy due to the later nexus. Also be on top of your forcefields. In lower leagues this can be very hard but once you're able to do so it'll work wonders. I even have a replay included where it shows how important that sentry is. If your opponent isn't getting gas before the queen is out (you can scout him untill that point), you're good to go. Start pressuring with the zealot/stalker and see how he responds. Does he make spines? extra queens? a lot of slow lings? Make sure you don't lose the stalker and keep a probe at his 3rd base. Behind this you want to make your wall at your natural fast. with the sentry and the cannon you can hold any mass speedling attack if you wall off completely with a zealot or a stalker. The 2 forcefields you'll have are essential to hold off a late baneling bust. If that happens, make sure you stop phoenix production and use the 2 gateways you have for extra defense. Sentries and cannons are very good against baneling busts. Baneling busts are still possible off 3 hatcheries so always pay attention to your natural. I hope this quick write-up on scouting helped you. If I was wrong and it doesn't apply to the trouble you have with the build please send me replays so that I can help you. Edit: I don't that there are any maps where the build is overall better. Smaller maps help you pressure with the zealot/stalker earlier but also allow your opponent's all-in to hit faster. Bigger maps are good for phoenix but also gives your stalker less time to harras. Because of the long rush distance it takes some time to get to your opponent's base but you also have to leave earlier to get back safe to your own base. | ||
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On August 27 2012 20:43 Veriol wrote: This build only is hoping for zerg scouting bad and macro bad. In ur first game in the VOD u take third with 4 zealots sentry a 3 stalkers at 11:30 how is that even viable 10 roaches kill that and by 11:30 ppl have 10 roaches. But then again most zergs dont know how greedy this is so they turtle and tech to infestors to play it safe while there is 4minutes timing for easy win. This can be viable build but not to take fast third with more likely to make 2base push and take third behind it. I don't agree with that at all. It is all about what you scout with the phoenix. In the game you're reffering to I saw that my opponent litteraly only had 1 roach which I killed with the phoenix. If my opponent had more units at that point in time I would've waited with the 3rd base a bit. I've said in the tutorial that you can get a voidray out to defend your 3rd against roach agression as well. Here is a replay of a game I played 2 days ago against a zerg that made a lot more units. With the phoenix I saw his high speedling count and decided to do some more warp-ins and delay my 3rd base. http://drop.sc/243758 Here is also a FPVOD of the game: http://twitch.tv/jaypower/b/329808160?t=2460s | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
Edit: also sorry for posting 4 times in a short period of time, should've merged all the replies. | ||
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Ea
United States121 Posts
1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE? 2. In the event the zerg takes his 3rd fast regardless of the opening (let's assume no pylon block), what is the best possible way to punish him? I've seen Jangbi's aggressive 1 gate really shine against greedy zergs, and of course there are a plethora of all-ins to use, but to merely pressure, what is the best possible approach? CB gateway units? 4 gate pressure? Or do you feel that the phoenix do enough damage to stabilize/favor your side? 3. When do you suggest the tech of choice? The timing of, say, a robo/TC? Thanks, cool guide, I really appreciate it. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8302 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8302 Posts
First time ever trying it, he's top eight plat, I'm plat as well (second game of the new season for me so with the new and improved ranking unsure exactly how high in plat I'll be, I was 7th in my division last season). He scouts that this is gateway first and panics HARD. Throws down 6 spines in his main, cancels his expansion at his third, I've got a pylon blocking at his natural. When he kills that pylon eventually I lose my first unit, and when I poke with zealot/stakler at his newly forming expansion I lose the zealot... and that's it. No more units lost on my side, and soon the phoenixes came in. Drone after drone fell before my might, and by the end of it He had lost 3875 units, I had lost 200. I shit you not. Fuck it, I'm posting this in a new post rather than editing it in so people can see it this game was just too fun! Oooh, and Seed is doing this build in IPTL right now. | ||
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Stunergy
United States41 Posts
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On September 05 2012 11:08 Ea wrote: + Show Spoiler + I like this build, but I do have a couple of questions 1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE? 2. In the event the zerg takes his 3rd fast regardless of the opening (let's assume no pylon block), what is the best possible way to punish him? I've seen Jangbi's aggressive 1 gate really shine against greedy zergs, and of course there are a plethora of all-ins to use, but to merely pressure, what is the best possible approach? CB gateway units? 4 gate pressure? Or do you feel that the phoenix do enough damage to stabilize/favor your side? 3. When do you suggest the tech of choice? The timing of, say, a robo/TC? Thanks, cool guide, I really appreciate it. Sorry for the very late reply. 1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus. 2. When I see my opponent take his 3rd base instead of his natural I try to pressure him with a 3gate (after expand). I wall off my natural with 2 gateways after the nexus instead of a forge and a gateway and I don't take my 2nd gas until later. Of course this isn't always succeeding and I'm not sure how much you would have to commit to make it worth the delay in tech. So right now I'm not sure what the best responds. 3. I like to get my tech as soon as I have have 100 gas available while making phoenix and getting my +1 attack. The timing on this will of course depend on how much gas you spend on sentries and stalkers. I try to get as few as possible of those to get my tech going fast. On September 13 2012 08:23 TheDougler wrote: + Show Spoiler + Thanks for writing this! Trying to go stargate in all matchups (maybe not PvT I guess) this season. Looks like this aims for a macro game too which is excellent. Still don't quite get how this deals with mass roach though. If you know a roach heavy attack is coming you can make a voidray first or build extra cannons. This defense is very similair to how FFE'ing players would defend it. You just have to know it's coming. For a more detailed description on how to recognize a roach attack or how to defend it I recommend watching my follow-up tutorial I made exclusively about scouting. If you have more questions or things you feel I didn't cover, please let me know. I will awnser sooner this time. On September 14 2012 08:28 Stunergy wrote: + Show Spoiler + @jaypower, Thanks for the build, I've been using it against some masters (I'm only plat), and have been winning some good games. But, I did some experiments with this build for like 4 hours last night, and I find that a really good follow up after the stargate harass is actually twilight council into chargelot and archon. Most players go ling infestor when they see this style being used. I've been doing a very strong plus 2 attack with chargelot/archon attack while i grab my third. Even against roaching players, this seams to work very well because they dont have roach speed, and are behind on upgrades. And it will completely shut down a muta player since you will have ht, and a stargate. Hey thx for the reply. I can relate to that for sure. I've had zergs going for fast infestors, to get rid of the phoenix, and staying on speedlings for a long time quite a bit, even if they intended to go roach/infestor. chargelot/archon can be very strong against that. Thanks everyone for the kind replies, I will be making more guides/video tutorials in the future. I have a new video card and a new mic so I'm really motivated to keep on producing content. I'm also working on my english  . I'll try to make 1 guide/video tutorial per week, quality goes over quantity however. For now here's 2 short follow-up tutorials to this guide that go more in-dept on scouting in the early/mid-game. I hope you like the quality of the new mic.Part 1: + Show Spoiler + Part 2: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:04 JayPower wrote:1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus. I like basically everything you said in this post, but flying your overlord into my main base 90% of the time means it shows up basically to find a gateway right as my stalker pops out to shot it down, especially if I'm skipping zealot (which I will do unless I see an early enough pool not to cancel the zealot). So if you scout the main against non-FFE with your overlord, prepare to be 100 minerals in the hole if I opened 13 gate 15 gas because your overlord almost never has a hiding space within reach in my main base (since we don't play Shattered Temple anymore, all the hiding spots are at the natural). It's fine if you plan accordingly and don't let the supply block and 100 minerals+larva sink screw up your timings...but that's often exactly what it does. Then there's also the factor of having no overlord where you normally would have one for later: to check my gases, to fly into my base later to check tech/gateway count, etc. And you can't just think, "I'll fly another ovie over there; it'll be just fine!" because I have stalkers and there's a strong chance I'll find that overlord and shoot it down, depending on the map. It's possible, of course--but dangerous. | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On September 18 2012 15:32 ineversmile wrote: I like basically everything you said in this post, but flying your overlord into my main base 90% of the time means it shows up basically to find a gateway right as my stalker pops out to shot it down, especially if I'm skipping zealot (which I will do unless I see an early enough pool not to cancel the zealot). So if you scout the main against non-FFE with your overlord, prepare to be 100 minerals in the hole if I opened 13 gate 15 gas because your overlord almost never has a hiding space within reach in my main base (since we don't play Shattered Temple anymore, all the hiding spots are at the natural). It's fine if you plan accordingly and don't let the supply block and 100 minerals+larva sink screw up your timings...but that's often exactly what it does. Then there's also the factor of having no overlord where you normally would have one for later: to check my gases, to fly into my base later to check tech/gateway count, etc. And you can't just think, "I'll fly another ovie over there; it'll be just fine!" because I have stalkers and there's a strong chance I'll find that overlord and shoot it down, depending on the map. It's possible, of course--but dangerous. Oh I was actually refering to a little while later in the game. When the stalker (and maybe zealot) come out, but you don't see a 2nd nexus. Of course checking the gasses in the main tells a lot, but if the stalker is out on the map you might want to send it in. Especially if both gasses are taken. But you're right, the overlord at the natural is way more important and you don't want to send an overlord in that fast. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
http://drop.sc/254673 I haven't played very much over the last two weeks, so my mechanics really slip up in this game, but this is still a pretty fair example of the transition I like from this opening: get a third, go into upgraded chargelots, and back them with constant production of either Phoenixes (in the case of mutas) or immortals (in the case of a significant commitment to roaches). Eithere way, Chargelots are a much more cost-efficient backbone of the army, and all of these units are a lot stronger against infestors/fungals than a blink stalker-based army at that stage of the game. | ||
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Sinceto
Denmark3 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
http://drop.sc/257522 You definitely should put the first 2 pylons and gateway in your main base because they're safer against 6pools, and your core needs to go down ASAP when the gateway finishes so you can't use that to wall the low ground that quickly. However, if you put your third pylon adjacent to the low ground of your ramp and you put the second gateway on the other side of the ramp, there is a one unit choke point where you can park something to block things off. In this game, I cut the Zealot because I scout speed and I know that he's attempting a bust (rather than macro play) because I see him ignoring the pylon at his natural with his lings, so we trade farms with me coming ahead based on that information. The next step is to get a 2nd gas and a sentry immediately after the first stalker, then to get a Stargate when gas allows and hug your ramp. Don't skip the Nexus; if he overmakes speedlings and cancels it then you're ahead in economy and tech in 1base vs 1base...but if he just speedling expands then you need to punish that by having a relatively even expansion timing but with a higher worker count. After you throw up the Nexus, you can either go for a wall-off at your bigger ramp (like I did in this game because it's Ohana), or you can wall to your Nexus. It's a risk-reward scenario based upon when you feel like your opponent missed a specific timing and you think you can get away with something. In this case, the bane bust came a little later than it could have, and it could have been even earlier without ling speed--but notice that I would have been safe to either because I was close enough to my small choke point that I could back up and play defense, warp in a couple zealots, and then boost a Void Ray to end his pressure for good. This is a much less map-dependent, much more economical method of dealing with Gas/Pool openings from the zerg. Rather than transitioning into a FFE and getting a really, really slow cannon, you just go into double gas ASAP and get sentries, then make a wall-off that's much more logical for opening with Stalkers. You don't need a full-blown wall-off at your natural ramp when you're opening 13 gate 15 gas. Plus, if you want to be even more safe, you can get that first Zealot and boost it instead of that extra probe boost that I did in this game. Don't cut probes or delay the Core for it, though...just build it when you have 100 minerals on it. ----- Here's a game where I play against Hatch first with a gas reactive to seeing my gateway opener and a third hatch: http://drop.sc/257531 Notice that I have a probe lead from his Hatchery timing forward, and he only makes up for it with a full round of drones that finishes at 5:35 when we're both tied at 24 workers each. My nexus has 23 seconds before it's finished, and I'm pressuring his third with a couple of stalkers. He has to either cancel the hatchery or make a bunch of lings. Since his speed timing is due to finish in a minute and a half, he chooses to go with the lings (which will have a lot more value at that timing). Because of this, my worker count gains a lead again while he builds non-drone units. All I have to do is go home with my units (or hide them in a corner) and build a full wall, and I'm infinitely far ahead. Unfortunately, I screw up the wall by not finishing it in time, and a bunch of speedlings dart through a pylon-sized crack which should have been filled, and he kills 21 workers. So he gets his lead back, but it was only because I didn't finish the secondary wall and I also missed forcefields before letting 20 lings into my base. And, even then, I stabilize with a Void Ray and transition into double forges and a third. I eventually win this game due to my opponent's poor injects and bizarre commitment to muta/ling against chargelot/phoenix, but I want to show this game for the early moments, not so much the later game. You can do so much damage with just 2 Stalkers at the third and an overlord kill or two, and you can get away with walling off the ramp with the rocks against triple hatch if you play it correctly. Yes, it's hard; it requires that you're more active with your eyes and trigger finger on forcefields at the 8 minute mark, but difficulty has nothing to do with a strategy's validity--it only means that the player needs to improve to be worthy of the strategy. | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On September 25 2012 11:17 ineversmile wrote: I have a couple more replays to add to this thread. This first one is how you should defend a baneling bust post-ling speed (which is actually a pretty late timing): http://drop.sc/257522 You definitely should put the first 2 pylons and gateway in your main base because they're safer against 6pools, and your core needs to go down ASAP when the gateway finishes so you can't use that to wall the low ground that quickly. However, if you put your third pylon adjacent to the low ground of your ramp and you put the second gateway on the other side of the ramp, there is a one unit choke point where you can park something to block things off. In this game, I cut the Zealot because I scout speed and I know that he's attempting a bust (rather than macro play) because I see him ignoring the pylon at his natural with his lings, so we trade farms with me coming ahead based on that information. The next step is to get a 2nd gas and a sentry immediately after the first stalker, then to get a Stargate when gas allows and hug your ramp. Don't skip the Nexus; if he overmakes speedlings and cancels it then you're ahead in economy and tech in 1base vs 1base...but if he just speedling expands then you need to punish that by having a relatively even expansion timing but with a higher worker count. After you throw up the Nexus, you can either go for a wall-off at your bigger ramp (like I did in this game because it's Ohana), or you can wall to your Nexus. It's a risk-reward scenario based upon when you feel like your opponent missed a specific timing and you think you can get away with something. In this case, the bane bust came a little later than it could have, and it could have been even earlier without ling speed--but notice that I would have been safe to either because I was close enough to my small choke point that I could back up and play defense, warp in a couple zealots, and then boost a Void Ray to end his pressure for good. This is a much less map-dependent, much more economical method of dealing with Gas/Pool openings from the zerg. Rather than transitioning into a FFE and getting a really, really slow cannon, you just go into double gas ASAP and get sentries, then make a wall-off that's much more logical for opening with Stalkers. You don't need a full-blown wall-off at your natural ramp when you're opening 13 gate 15 gas. Plus, if you want to be even more safe, you can get that first Zealot and boost it instead of that extra probe boost that I did in this game. Don't cut probes or delay the Core for it, though...just build it when you have 100 minerals on it. ----- Here's a game where I play against Hatch first with a gas reactive to seeing my gateway opener and a third hatch: http://drop.sc/257531 Notice that I have a probe lead from his Hatchery timing forward, and he only makes up for it with a full round of drones that finishes at 5:35 when we're both tied at 24 workers each. My nexus has 23 seconds before it's finished, and I'm pressuring his third with a couple of stalkers. He has to either cancel the hatchery or make a bunch of lings. Since his speed timing is due to finish in a minute and a half, he chooses to go with the lings (which will have a lot more value at that timing). Because of this, my worker count gains a lead again while he builds non-drone units. All I have to do is go home with my units (or hide them in a corner) and build a full wall, and I'm infinitely far ahead. Unfortunately, I screw up the wall by not finishing it in time, and a bunch of speedlings dart through a pylon-sized crack which should have been filled, and he kills 21 workers. So he gets his lead back, but it was only because I didn't finish the secondary wall and I also missed forcefields before letting 20 lings into my base. And, even then, I stabilize with a Void Ray and transition into double forges and a third. I eventually win this game due to my opponent's poor injects and bizarre commitment to muta/ling against chargelot/phoenix, but I want to show this game for the early moments, not so much the later game. You can do so much damage with just 2 Stalkers at the third and an overlord kill or two, and you can get away with walling off the ramp with the rocks against triple hatch if you play it correctly. Yes, it's hard; it requires that you're more active with your eyes and trigger finger on forcefields at the 8 minute mark, but difficulty has nothing to do with a strategy's validity--it only means that the player needs to improve to be worthy of the strategy. Thanks a lot for the replays, I really liked your play. Especially the confidence in the game on ohana, I would´ve walled before the nexus but now I learned you don´t always have to. 2nd game was a bit weird. Sucks you had so many probes killed but gj on the come back. Had a good laugh at him trying to blow up your 3rd nexus with banelings, sucks he succeed later. gg though. I´m too sure I like your nautral wall on cloud kingdom though, I much prefer the common wall at the choke. Do you think this wall gives you and advantage the normal wall doesnt give you? | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
I like the further wall-off on Cloud Kingdom more than the one at the natural, and I have a handful of reasons. The first and foremost one is that I intend to take a third almost every game and I want that secondary wall-off anyways, whereas the backup wall where you would FFE isn't something I actually need. The speedling timing for standard 15 hatch 16 pool with non-FFE scouting is about 8 minutes in, and then I also keep a good count of the drones/queens/defense/gases built due to my stalker pressure, so I basically know how many lings are out before speed, I have an idea about whether that second/third queen have been hitting all their injects or spreading creep, and that kinda tells me how many larvae he's going to morph in the next wave that could either be lings or drones. I try to put a pylon on the map and be prepared for the 8 minute timing, and if that doesn't hit I use a warp-in to check the third saturation which indicates how safe or greedy I should play. Dealing with that 8 minute speed timing is actually fine with the further wall-off because you can just put the 4th or 5th pylon on the high ground, like I did, and then put 2 more 3x3 structures (Gate/forge/twilight etc) and be ready to close the gap before lings come. To be really safe, you should probably just seal it off completely either with a Zealot or a pylon in the hole, and then go do all that macro at that point in time (boosting stuff and deciding tech paths=looking away from your minimap for vital seconds and it needs to happen right after that timing window when speed finishes. It would have been really, really easy to do that in the replay I posted, but I'm only human and I made that mistake. I mean, I knew the gas timing, I knew I needed to be ready, but I just didn't finish the wall-off when I was only a step away. So, if anything, the wall-off at the rocks initially is fine, and then you have enough time to stop speedlings from a standard triple hatch style. You don't actually need to do the secondary wall-off that soon, though--and that's the key thing here. If I had seen that he was droning and building spines, I wouldn't have walled off, there--I would have done it at my third about 2 minutes later and used those minerals to just build another nexus. I also don't actually want to wall-off against some roach timings, by the way. I'm playing a chargelot-based army and I need to set up concaves and surrounds, so funneling them into choke points isn't going to play to my strengths. So that's a reason why I don't want a wall-off, in case my opponent isn't going for heavy ling play. That's the main reason why I'm not a fan of the wall-off when it's against triple hatch. I did the secondary wall-off in that game (even if it was a little incomplete) because he built a ton of lings to deal with my stalkers and it was obvious that he should just use lings to try to get back into the game, but if I see droning/lots of defense/queens/gases/even early roaches, I really don't want to build that wall yet. So for those situations, it's way more efficient to wall-off the rocks ramp, go take my third, and park my army at it so that they only have to fight in one location. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20284 Posts
First time ever trying it, he's top eight plat, I'm plat as well (second game of the new season for me so with the new and improved ranking unsure exactly how high in plat I'll be, I was 7th in my division last season). He scouts that this is gateway first and panics HARD. Throws down 6 spines in his main With people as terrible as that, any low master can get a flawless victory doing anything he damn well pleases, 2base carrier would be my weapon of choice though, more fun  6 spines? Spine costs 150 minerals and a larvae. Committing 900 minerals and 6 larvae at such an early point to defending yourself on 1 base? Protoss can double expand and build a zealot, and you have nothing whatsoever to threaten him with. He's up 2 bases with the army advantage and equal tech. Quite simply any safe expand that doesnt hit a supply block or 500 resources before 100 supply should crush anything that any zerg of any skill level could possibly follow up with after building 6 spines in his main at the ~4 minute mark. | ||
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Twiggs
United States600 Posts
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