EPTWhat I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him
[G] ZvP: Defeating the Sentry/Immortal All-in - Page 2
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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Genovi
Sweden388 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Good guide but I could argue if some of those methods are not too risky. What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him True, but immortals and forcefields help Protoss absorb a million banelings without taking much damage. I agree that it would help buy time, because if 3 banelings connect with his sentries he loses the game. I'm definitely going to look into banelings + drops more, it seems much more reliable than the other methods, which are really trying to put out an electrical fire with water. I've slammed some clowns who've done this all-in pretty hard with 6 queens and just upgraded ling with some spine. Maybe they were bads. Shit, no maybe... They were bads. It's just that none of these units really "counters" the queen since the range upgrade. I really hate making roaches against this all-in, and base-trading with roach ling can be a little crazy on maps like Shakuras, Ohana, Entombed and anything else with easily defended nat. This does tend to hit before 3 base muta or pathogen glands, so I've become quite the fan of dealing with it using the ling cloud. The problem for my method is a misread when it turns into a colossus build instead. What? Sentries make queens useless with guardian shield, and usually by the time they attack it's 6+ sentries, 3 immortals, and 7-14 stalkers. Queens do 4 DPS if there's guardian shield, and 2 DPS if there's guardian shield and +1 armor. Lings can be forcefielded, you won't hold an upgrade advantage against a Protoss who opens forge first, ever. I wish for people to post replays of these methods working/not working, I'd like to get up a replay bank! No guide is complete without replays, and I don't feel good enough to post mine. As a side note, the last 4 Protoss players have done this all-in to me haha. Im a high master z (1400) and this guide helped me so much. Just by giving me some specifics on ideas of how to hold this off. I honestly have felt like in many situations the battle with this push comes down to purely forcefields but mutas really work!! Glad to hear it!  Yeah, honestly it's not that good an all-in unless executed perfectly. And with proper macro and strategy it should be easy to hold! I still lose to it a lot, hooray for being a noob! (Y)So when you say mutas really work, do you mean with Nestea's opening, or a more standard gasless 3 hatch build into fast lair/mutas? | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
I don't play against GMs, so why bother? Also, I did say the people I've beaten who do this all-in using my lazy method are most likely bad, or at least worse than me (also bad). | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Also I know we are all very greedy with our inject,. but a bit of creep really does help out so much. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 16 2012 07:44 Oboeman wrote: When trying to use roach ling, make sure you have both roaches and lings on all sides of your flank. If you hit with roaches from one side and lings from the other, it's pretty easy to forcefield you out while still killing many units. If you have roach/ling on both sides, it's much harder and he needs to use more than twice as many forcefields. Also I know we are all very greedy with our inject,. but a bit of creep really does help out so much. Good point, I'll add that in now. Creep spread is terrifically good at helping with engagements against sentry/immortal. And while you're right about flank with roach/ling on both sides, I find it takes too much time and APM for my mind to muster, but I'll add a note about that as well. Thanks! | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 16 2012 08:51 ODKStevez wrote: The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p I've never heard of infestors being used against this. I guess FG kills sentries very well, but really... Also timing is an issue. I believe infestors take as long as Baneling drops, but you need to have gas for 4+ infestors at 31 seconds into pathogen glands. Doubt it's viable, I'd love to see a replay! No, robo expands aren't that much like all-ins. In an expand, he will take a third and play defensive. In an all-in, he moves out of his base and goes to yours. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:09 Mavvie wrote: I've never heard of infestors being used against this. I guess FG kills sentries very well, but really... Also timing is an issue. I believe infestors take as long as Baneling drops, but you need to have gas for 4+ infestors at 31 seconds into pathogen glands. Doubt it's viable, I'd love to see a replay! No, robo expands aren't that much like all-ins. In an expand, he will take a third and play defensive. In an all-in, he moves out of his base and goes to yours. 2 base ling/infestor will crush it but you won't get 3 base infestors out in time unless you are like not droning and go lair really fast. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Edit: Blade, I played a game against this all-in on ladder, went to basetrade, but saw 5 cannons and was like "shit gg". What do you do if you've already heavily invested into roaches, but can't basetrade? | ||
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Walitgon
Australia550 Posts
On August 16 2012 02:43 Belial88 wrote: The reason baneling drop is not viable, but mutas are, is because mutas are about base trading, so you don't care you are losing your third hatchery before your mutas even pop, because you are relying on mutas busting down the wall-in at Toss' natural and then your ling/muta just destroys everything instantly, and then you have 30+ mutas to focus whatever Toss remakes once all of your bases are gone. Baneling drops, are meant to fight straight up with immortal/sentry, so there are problems with it's timing. You are assuming that Toss will fight you when he sees your army, but any smart Toss will just have killed your third, see the baneling+drop tech at your natural, and then go home with a huge lead, or just go straight into your natural, main, and kill you In my experience the above is wrong insfoar that drops will be ready in time and wrong insofar that you can in fact beat a toss that has just destroyed your third. I haven't got time to post a detailed guide but baneling drops are fully viable against early sentry immortal (in my experience - GM SEA, GM-level NA) The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas. If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third. My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time. This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling. Finally, MANY a time I have committed to this style and have indeed not gotten drops out of time, due to sloppiness or a misread on my part, etc. I have lost my third and gone ahead and crushed him. The reason is simple and it's sad that so many people refuse to challenge the metagame and realise the following. Ling-bling is the natural counter to everything in the sentry immortal push. So long as you can get over forcefields, you'll beat it EASILY in a straight up fight. So if you have had mining at your third for some time and are caught with your pants down massing your army, you should still have a sizeable army, and even you lose your third then and there, you should still be able to defeat his army if you chase it down. I have done this many times and it has worked.... My 2 cents. *ling-bling-drops advocate checking in* | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:47 Mavvie wrote: Ah, understandable. Also, only an idiot would would continue with the all-in upon scouting no third. Even with a 4:30 gas -> speed -> lair it's too late? Spire (100 seconds) + mutas (~30 seconds) == Infestation pit(50 seconds) + Pathogen glands (80 seconds) if my math is correct...It's possible, but I think the hard part would be having the necessary amount of gas (600+) by 31/80 on pathogen glands. Theorycrafting still, and it's never been used as by a pro as an answer. Edit: Blade, I played a game against this all-in on ladder, went to basetrade, but saw 5 cannons and was like "shit gg". What do you do if you've already heavily invested into roaches, but can't basetrade? It's close enough that you don't have enough fungals even if the infestors come out barely in time. You may have enough to kill the sentries (if he bunches them up) but you don't have the meat of a ground army needed to overwhelm it, even if there are no forcefields, because you went fast infestor, not roach ling. You need to engage him while you are fungalling (to protect the infestors, because you can't spare energy to carpet his entire army) which means you are losing units to his first round of forcefields anyway. The difference between the viability of infestor and baneling drop, is that baneling drop doesn't need time to build up energy, and it kills everything right away, instead of hurting stuff slowly over time. but you'd be surprised how many people blindly 2-base all in even if you go 2-base infestor. I don't recommend this as a viable alternative, but so many protoss players don't actually scout. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:47 Mavvie wrote: Ah, understandable. Also, only an idiot would would continue with the all-in upon scouting no third. Even with a 4:30 gas -> speed -> lair it's too late? Spire (100 seconds) + mutas (~30 seconds) == Infestation pit(50 seconds) + Pathogen glands (80 seconds) if my math is correct...It's possible, but I think the hard part would be having the necessary amount of gas (600+) by 31/80 on pathogen glands. Theorycrafting still, and it's never been used as by a pro as an answer. Edit: Blade, I played a game against this all-in on ladder, went to basetrade, but saw 5 cannons and was like "shit gg". What do you do if you've already heavily invested into roaches, but can't basetrade? If you got gas at 4:30 I imagine you could get mutas/infestors in time for the push but have to start an early lair and I don't think it's worth it. For your question you should have way more then enough roach/ling to continue with the base trade. I do anyway, I mean when I do a base trade I must have at minimum 15+ roaches with about 20+ lings. If going the base trade style you should have about that much minimum and you will easily crush through 5 cannons. So in short never been a problem  . | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time! 10:40 is way too late... Toss will have killed your third already, and should be halfway done killing your natural, while he forcefields off your slow banelings easily. A good immortal/sentry all-in will arrive at 10:30 at the latest, it should be there around 10:00-10:15. You can't really stall with lings, a good toss will move out unimpeded instead of chasing lings like a dumb dog after a car. Good guide but I could argue if some of those methods are not too risky. What I presonally do is drop a bling nest at 8.30 and morph few banes if he decides to all in. Even without drop banes are awsome against it coz a tiny error in toss ffs means gg for him Tiny error? Toss has zero macro to do at home once he pushes out, he only needs to watch his army for the rest of the game. I don't think even diamonds would make such a huge mistake... You are relying on toss making a huge blunder for your strat to work. That isn't really viable at higher levels of play. They were bads. It's just that none of these units really "counters" the queen since the range upgrade. I really hate making roaches against this all-in, and base-trading with roach ling can be a little crazy on maps like Shakuras, Ohana, Entombed and anything else with easily defended nat. This does tend to hit before 3 base muta or pathogen glands, so I've become quite the fan of dealing with it using the ling cloud. The problem for my method is a misread when it turns into a colossus build instead. Immortals rape armored units, like queens... Forcefields, sentries, stalkers, they all rape queens too. A zealot beats a queen 1v1. Sounds like you just played bads ;/ Also, any sort of colossus 2 base all-in is easily held with roach/ling. if you are having trouble against colossus all-ins, then it's just because of poor macro. Unlike what many low level people will say, it's not about infestors, it's not about bane drops, it's about good macro. With good macro, roach/ling can crush this, as can unconventional base trade play. Im a high master z (1400) and this guide helped me so much. Just by giving me some specifics on ideas of how to hold this off. I honestly have felt like in many situations the battle with this push comes down to purely forcefields but mutas really work!! Check out my guide then. This guide is literally a copy of posts I've made, and the big update I did to my guide a few days ago -_- I don't play against GMs, so why bother? Also, I did say the people I've beaten who do this all-in using my lazy method are most likely bad, or at least worse than me (also bad). Because if you do the 'correct' response, it's even easier to beat. The best way to beat immortal/sentry is just solid macro. Make a shitton of lings, not that many roaches, set up flanks, and you should crush immortal/sentry, as long as you don't lose too many lings trying to force out forcefields or kill pylons. The most important thing though is to scout it. When playing Zerg. That way, I believe this can be stopped with infestor ling. The scouting has to be nearly perfect but you will never die if you see this coming. The main reason this kills people is because it looks like an expand build and some people will expand ;p Scouting this build isn't really that big a deal - if you respond to it as you would any other double gas opening by Toss, by droning hard to 8:00-8:30, you'll be fine. You really don't need to start the roach warren until very late, like 8:30+, as in when lair is done, which is when an overseer will see what he's doing (if you didn't notice already). It's engaging it, that is the hardest thing to do. Only thing I can see really hurting is if you suspect air/DT play due to the gas taken and make spores and hurt your econ a bit doing that. I wouldn't say scouting is the key factor to beating this though. Pumping mass lings like you would even if you thought Toss was taking a quick third, after greedily droning up to 8:30, and then making a dozen roaches when you see toss push out, will hold this. You actually want to be as greedy as possible when against this build, so if you know someone is doing this, I'd recommend delaying gas, lair, and roach warren specfically. I'm thinking double evo might be good against this though. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
Some experts are here on this thread, so I will just add some resources people might find useful. Add them to OP if needed. Protoss side of view. This is what we are dealing with or its variant. [G] PvZ 7-gate Immortal +1/+1 Pro examples of this push where Zerg side loses: Elfi vs Stephano Game1 on Antiga Shipyard ASUS ROG Assembly Winter 2012 Push is late compared to today's more sophisticated versions but idea is the same. ZeNEX_Avenge vs EG_Idra Game 1 on Bel'shir Beach Code A 2012 GSL Season 1 Early days when this push was up and coming. Sase vs Stephano Game 3 on Metropolis MLG Spring Championship 2012 Forcefields are always better than you think they are. | ||
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kaokentake
383 Posts
most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural. pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more. mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas. If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third. My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time. This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling. How do you respond to other 2-base all-ins (especially the ones that hit earlier) with your gas timings. Do you rely primarily on denying the pylon with speedlings? The reason why the stephano gas timings are so well-loved is because it works so damn well for everything. The immortal all-in is the only thing that is actually difficult to stop, but still fine. | ||
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Walitgon
Australia550 Posts
On August 16 2012 15:32 Oboeman wrote: How do you respond to other 2-base all-ins (especially the ones that hit earlier) with your gas timings. Do you rely primarily on denying the pylon with speedlings? The reason why the stephano gas timings are so well-loved is because it works so damn well for everything. The immortal all-in is the only thing that is actually difficult to stop, but still fine. It doesn't affect your overall economy that much. You just your first 2 gas earlier, and your second two later. So you can tech to lair early if you need (which you do if you see toss has 4 gas). Therefore, you end up having about the same amount of gas. You can hold the other 2-base all-ins as well, quite easily. You can hold them with ling-bling, but, if you like you can always throw down a roach warren if you don't scout gas at toss's nat. Of course, scouting is key. Having 2 gas at 36 instead of 44 doesn't make that much of a difference to holding a 7gate all in, but it makes a huge difference holding a sentry immortal all-in with drops. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 16 2012 11:22 Belial88 wrote: 10:40 is way too late... Toss will have killed your third already, and should be halfway done killing your natural, while he forcefields off your slow banelings easily. A good immortal/sentry all-in will arrive at 10:30 at the latest, it should be there around 10:00-10:15. You can't really stall with lings, a good toss will move out unimpeded instead of chasing lings like a dumb dog after a car. obviously you havent tried it. if he moves out with sentry/immo only and doesnt FF my lings and 4-6 banes he just outright dies. if he FF you just stalled for 15 sec which is already enough. if he arrvies at 10:00-10:15 at my base it means he has to move out even earlier and has like 7 sentrys and 2-3 immos. i dont know why you keep telling its not ready and want to go muta yourself (which takes even a little longer to research as banelingdrop!). please try it. i will upload the next good replay that hits early enough. btw: just watched the replays of your ZvP thread where you and savior defend the sentry immo all in. P arrived at about 11:50, 11:30 and 11:00 at the Z bases in that replays. in all these replays banedrop would be easily be ready. just rewatched grubby vs ret: http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/318131504 grubby does a pretty much perfect sentry immo push which leaves the base at 9:30 with 2 zealots, 3 immos and 7 sentrys. it arrives at 10:30 at rets 3rd WITHOUT stalling a single second from ret! if you send some ling bling at 9:30 into the above mentioned units he HAS to FF = 15 sec = a prolevel sentry immo all in after stalling will arrive at about 10:45. | ||
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