On August 17 2012 05:06 IPA wrote: I base trade every single time I scout this coming and win 4/5 games. I pray for this build to hit me because it seems so easy to defeat. Granted, I am only playing at a 1k pt Masters level, but base trade seems like the best, easiest option to defeat this. Why bother with trying to hold?
Yeah, base trading works. But you shouldn't have to basetrade. Afaik, it's the only all-in where basetrading is the most reliable option haha. Personally, I'd rather defend with something cool like banerain and have a huge lead than to force it into a 2base vs 1base where he has map control...again, hopefully all methods are equally viable ^^
how does the basetrade usually work out? what if they go for your natural then main, and you dont have time to spine up to protect your tech?
Generally, once you scout that they're all-in, you should turn all your drones at your third into spines at your natural. You should have enough time for the spines to get up if you start shortly before he moves out. Often Protoss will wait for a warp in, which takes ~15-20 seconds with a warp prism, longer with a pylon. That should give your spiens enough time.
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Your macro seems really off . You dont really seem to make anything. The toss also made his robo over a minute late at 6:45.
You start drop tech at 8:10. That means it would have finished by 10:20, which means your third is already dead and toss is just going back home with a huge lead.
At 8:00 you only have 60 supply too, with only 40 workers, which is 2 drones BEHIND a diamond protoss.
ps - overlord speed takes about half the time that droptech takes, never start them both at the same time...
Toss pushes out at 9:47 with only 2 immortals. When the engagement finally occurs, it's 11:30, which would be easy for any zerg, as you can be maxed on roach/ling by 11:30.
Despite your damage, Toss' army is still completely alive, except for the sentries.
Dude, all you are doing, is a 2 base ling/baneling drop build, but taking a third hatchery, against diamond protoss. I hate to say it, but in diamond, you can get away with anything. The macro of both the zerg and Toss in this game is really bad, and then makes the game look completely different. I assure you, that at higher levels of play, this just isn't viable, but in diamond, it looks pretty close.
You talk about getting a quick lair and earlier gas to pull this off, and as a result, you are about 20 drones behind at the 8:00 mark, and hell, 15 drones behind at the 6:00 mark. You are killing yourself ecnonomically. You don't think every zerg in the world doesnt want a quicker lair and have tech out against 2 base toss pushes? In this game, all you do is a 2 base ling/bane build with a third just taken, your economy is terrible in this game, which is why your army value is only equal to toss when he pushes out, when instead it should be like 2x his army value.
I don't think you know what you are talking about, and you are saying something because it's what works for you in Diamond. if you want to say "this works for me in diamond", that's fine, but this would not work at all at higher levels of play, and multiple masters+ have spoken and said your build doesn't work, at all. Why not just take 5 bases as Zerg in the early game? Because it just hurts your econ too much. You taking gas so early just kills your econ, it's pretty clear to see.
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
You want to be ling heavy in a base trade, roaches don't have the dps that lings have to win a base trade. If you go mutas, you shouldn't even make any roaches at all, and if you go roach/ling base trade, you only need 10-20 as if you were fighting straight up to bust the wall-in.
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
Your macro seems really off . You dont really seem to make anything. The toss also made his robo over a minute late at 6:45.
You start drop tech at 8:10. That means it would have finished by 10:20, which means your third is already dead and toss is just going back home with a huge lead.
At 8:00 you only have 60 supply too, with only 40 workers, which is 2 drones BEHIND a diamond protoss.
ps - overlord speed takes about half the time that droptech takes, never start them both at the same time...
Toss pushes out at 9:47 with only 2 immortals. When the engagement finally occurs, it's 11:30, which would be easy for any zerg, as you can be maxed on roach/ling by 11:30.
Despite your damage, Toss' army is still completely alive, except for the sentries.
Dude, all you are doing, is a 2 base ling/baneling drop build, but taking a third hatchery, against diamond protoss. I hate to say it, but in diamond, you can get away with anything. The macro of both the zerg and Toss in this game is really bad, and then makes the game look completely different. I assure you, that at higher levels of play, this just isn't viable, but in diamond, it looks pretty close.
You talk about getting a quick lair and earlier gas to pull this off, and as a result, you are about 20 drones behind at the 8:00 mark, and hell, 15 drones behind at the 6:00 mark. You are killing yourself ecnonomically. You don't think every zerg in the world doesnt want a quicker lair and have tech out against 2 base toss pushes? In this game, all you do is a 2 base ling/bane build with a third just taken, your economy is terrible in this game, which is why your army value is only equal to toss when he pushes out, when instead it should be like 2x his army value.
I don't think you know what you are talking about, and you are saying something because it's what works for you in Diamond. if you want to say "this works for me in diamond", that's fine, but this would not work at all at higher levels of play, and multiple masters+ have spoken and said your build doesn't work, at all. Why not just take 5 bases as Zerg in the early game? Because it just hurts your econ too much. You taking gas so early just kills your econ, it's pretty clear to see.
please stop telling everybody toss kills the 3rd @ 10:00-10:15. its just outright wrong! i posted a replay of grubby where he does one of the fastest sentry immortal all ins and ret doesnt delay him and still arrives @ 10:30. post pro replays where they get 4 gas, do the sentry immortal all in and arrive @ 10:00 at the 3rd.
here´s another video (it copies the exact BO of sase vs stephano) which also arrives at around 10:30-10:40. also without any stalling from Z:
Basetrading is better if you're even in roach:ling ratio; I often make the mistake of being super ling-heavy, then simcity or multiple cannons = gg for me. Generally if you can have ~15-20 roaches and any number of zerglings, you'll be guaranteed to at least snipe everything in his natural. I believe that's what is demonstrated in blade's replays in the roach/ling basetrade section.
You want to be ling heavy in a base trade, roaches don't have the dps that lings have to win a base trade. If you go mutas, you shouldn't even make any roaches at all, and if you go roach/ling base trade, you only need 10-20 as if you were fighting straight up to bust the wall-in.
I guess, but you need critical mass (~20 IMO) of roaches to break down walls, zealots, and artosis pylons. Generally the way the timings work I'll have ~15-20 roaches with up to 40 speedlings. Perhaps +1 melee out of evo chamber is a good idea for vs sentry/immortal all-ins if you basetrade.
Stephano just beat this build 3 games in a row on his stream. It looks like he knows what to do to beat it. When the toss left his natural he would have about 20 speedlings and 4 roaches ready to snipe all the sentries or waste most of the forcefields. He would then put up spines at his third and crush the attack with roach/ling. Of course, this guy is Stephano, his style of defense may be too risky for it to work well for your average master Joe.
Ok that's really smart, I always wonder why intercepting it right when it leaves isn't done more often. Say you're facing someone who's actually good, and moves out with 3 immortals and 6 sentries @ 9:00. If you started making lings ~8:15-8:30, you could have 20-30 lings. I'm no math expert, but you should be able to do crippling damage to his push with the first few lings you make. Unforunately, 4 roaches can't 1 shot sentries (I think? 16x4=64 damage is less than 80 health), but 5 roaches should be able to. I honestly would like to see a pro replay where this is proven to not be viable.
I've been going double evo against any FFE that isn't a gateway timing. +1/+1 helps so much since lings are the ones doing the real DPS. But I still lose to it a lot. I think maybe I need to emulate what I saw on Stephano's stream today, where he sends units, some roaches and a bunch of lings, and immediately starts trying to snipe sentries/waste FFs the moment the Toss leaves his natural.
I don't think it's possible to beat if you don't force the Toss to waste any sentries or FFs as he approaches your third, I don't care how good of a surround you get, proper FFs will still kill you with reinforcing units from WP.
^ yea I've been thinking double evo would be a good idea. When I play against immortal/sentry using roach/ling straight up, I always seem to bank a lot of money, even with pretty good injects. But you can't get any tech out like hydras or infestors, I feel like 1/1 is really the only tech you can get that would be safe and timely.
Every time I try to do the whole bait-ff thing, it doesn't work too well. I find the loss in lings in doing so outweighs the forcefields you may force out. It's a lot easier to hold immortal/sentry if you are at 140 supply at 10:30+ instead of 120. No reason not to try to get a sentry left by itself or anything, or delay the push by as much as you can, though. But I've beaten it without having to waste a ton of FF. But that was against a ladder toss, so maybe it isn't viable at high levels to let toss arrive with full energy.
post pro replays where they get 4 gas, do the sentry immortal all in and arrive @ 10:00 at the 3rd.
You asked for it, you got it.
Properly executed hits before 10:30. For safety sake I think a build that can defend the push at 10 min would be ideal. Only thing that works for me is playing a bad toss or base trading and making spines at natural to reset the game to 2 base vs 1 base.
I usually say 10:30 they are at your base at the latest, and 9:30 they push out at the latest. What I meant in reference to Chaos' post was that his third would have no units to protect it, that's why it would be dead at 10:00, as in dead meat. But an immortal/sentry all-in can really hit and push out 30 seconds earlier than 10:30/9;)30, I just say 10:30/9:30 as reference numbers as the latest possible timing.
Things like your opening are a big part of it. You can a good 30 seconds down in your build if you go, say, nexus/forge/gateway/2ndpylon/cannon or nexus/gateway/forge.
like belial said its nexus first (which makes it faster) AND he takes the 3rd and 4th gas VERY late (6:00 and 6:30) which means his sentrys will have less energy. so this is basically the fastest possible sentry immortal all in. i posted 4 replays after FFE with faster gases where pros arrived @ 10:30 WITHOUT zerg attacking (on GM/high master level this will be 10-20 sec later = 10:40-10:50). so perhaps vs nexus first and late gases it MIGHT be better to just go roach ling since he has less FF energy. but even in your replay P wouldve arrived @ 10:15 at the 3rd so you would need to stall only for 15-25 sec to get banedrop ready which you can do easily.
even if you lose your 3rd you can just crush his army with banedrop afterwards and just win the game OR spine up and basetrade drop his main (like ling muta).
AND you can just take your gas @ 5:20 and get drop @ 10:20 if you still feel its too late (which it isnt with stalling).
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in.
To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army.
So I did the math for the minerals lost. I had 3 larvae idle at 5:29, and 6 more idle at 5:45 ( natural larvae spawning occurred at the same time as the injected larvae ) and those got spent at around 6 minutes. In total this macro mistake costed me a total of 120 minerals, WOE is me, I couldn't hold any all in without those extra two pairs of zerglings. While it would be nice to have those extra minerals ( and it is inexcusable to not be perfect in those drone building moments ) it isn't game ending.
While I feel flattered that you compared me to Jaedong, I think you are comparing me to a no gas Zerg that didn't have a pylon block. If you really want to compare my macro ability with pros, I would recommend Dimaga, as he is the one I most emulate. For your pleasure I did some analysis from his games at Dreamhack Summer.
To give you proof that Dimaga's macro is infact good enough, here's a replay of him going for a gasless build. He has 44 supply at 6:00. http://drop.sc/239728
Now onto the replays of the earlier gas builds. Here are two replays of him hitting 38 supply with a gas at 4:30, against Fraer - http://drop.sc/239729 and against Naniwa - http://drop.sc/239731 . We'll move back to those replays later to clear things up around the 8 minute mark.
Now here's a game of him hitting 44 supply with a 4:30 gas. For the record, he didn't have any pylon blocks and wasn't delayed on any of his hatcheries, and only made 2 lings to get that, thats how he managed to get out extra supply. http://drop.sc/239732
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote:
You start drop tech at 8:10. That means it would have finished by 10:20, which means your third is already dead and toss is just going back home with a huge lead.
My third is already dead? You mean the instant protoss gets to my third, it is just insta-gibbed? You mean that I have no way of stopping him from bee-lining to my third with zerglings to delay his time there? You mean that my gas-steal didn't delay him for atleast 10 seconds? Please show me a replay of a Protoss killing a third at 10:20 while moving out at 9:30 with an immortal push with you delaying his push with Zerglings, I will gladly back off my claim if you can provide proof that that third is dead by 10:20.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: At 8:00 you only have 60 supply too, with only 40 workers, which is 2 drones BEHIND a diamond protoss.
Now here's an interesting statistic that relies on those two replays that I told you to come back at. At 8 minutes, Dimaga has around 40 workers ( even sub 40 workers ) at that time frame. As you can see, he easily holds an 8 minute pressure with pure speedling ( something any double gas at 6 minute Zerg HAS to defend with Roaches because speed won't be out in time, forcing you to waste gas in units rather than tech like an upgrade ). As long as you start unit production soon enough ( which you should since a warpgate push is EASILY scouted ) you will be fine unless your dronecout is like 35 or whatever.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: ps - overlord speed takes about half the time that droptech takes, never start them both at the same time...
I'll take that into account next time. I figured I had the extra gas to dump it in the upgrade, might do a roach speed upgrade instead of overlord speed right away. Thanks for pointing that out.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: Toss pushes out at 9:47 with only 2 immortals. When the engagement finally occurs, it's 11:30, which would be easy for any zerg, as you can be maxed on roach/ling by 11:30.
Granted, he did delay his push enough to get +1/+1 out rather than drops, which would have helped much more ( and is exactly what kind of style I prefer if the Protoss goes for anything other than rushing for a fast immortal-sentry push ).
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: Despite your damage, Toss' army is still completely alive, except for the sentries.
Dude, all you are doing, is a 2 base ling/baneling drop build, but taking a third hatchery, against diamond protoss. I hate to say it, but in diamond, you can get away with anything. The macro of both the zerg and Toss in this game is really bad, and then makes the game look completely different. I assure you, that at higher levels of play, this just isn't viable, but in diamond, it looks pretty close.
Despite me completely botching the control and thus not killing off the army in one go, I find myself in a similar 'you are boned' situation when I get more than 6 roaches forcefielded out anyway.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: You talk about getting a quick lair and earlier gas to pull this off, and as a result, you are about 20 drones behind at the 8:00 mark, and hell, 15 drones behind at the 6:00 mark. You are killing yourself ecnonomically. You don't think every zerg in the world doesnt want a quicker lair and have tech out against 2 base toss pushes? In this game, all you do is a 2 base ling/bane build with a third just taken, your economy is terrible in this game, which is why your army value is only equal to toss when he pushes out, when instead it should be like 2x his army value.
The ONLY and I repeat ONLY time I go for a fast lair and drop tech is when I get enough intell that this Immortal Sentry push is coming. I won't do it against a Blink stalker attack, I won't do it against a Voidray Phoenix style, I won't do it against a gateway attack, only specifically against an immortal sentry push. I am doing a '2 base all in' against a similar 2 base all in Protoss because I scout just that, I'm not doing this stuff blindly. The way this build works is killing off the sentries or delaying him with the threat of banelings being dropped before he can forcefield off my Zerglings, flooding in right away after the Sentries and possibly supporting Zealots have gone down. You aren't supposed to go in and slowly bait out forcefields like you would with a Roach-Ling army. It is supposed to suffocate the push in one huge wave, rather than chipping away at it giving yourself less room for error because having a large enough chunk of your army forcefielded off means its GG anyway.
On August 17 2012 05:52 Belial88 wrote: I don't think you know what you are talking about, and you are saying something because it's what works for you in Diamond. if you want to say "this works for me in diamond", that's fine, but this would not work at all at higher levels of play, and multiple masters+ have spoken and said your build doesn't work, at all. Why not just take 5 bases as Zerg in the early game? Because it just hurts your econ too much. You taking gas so early just kills your econ, it's pretty clear to see.
Please tell me more about how I don't know anything and that I'm just some shrub that does shit randomly. You're comparing apples with oranges here. I play a faster tech style that yes does have less drones by the 8 minute mark in favour of that faster tech, while you play a much more econ focussed style that gets gas later in favour of those extra drones. I don't go around spewing that your style is inviable because it gets ling speed out later than 8 minutes either, so why do you have to claim that this faster gas style only works in diamond while one of the top Zergs in EU, Dimaga ( as of now rank 36 in the world on the ladder ) has clearly shown that it does work in GM and yes tournament level games. These are two sides of the same coin, not 'this sucks and this rocks'.
I don't mind being called a diamond shrub by you, considering your standards are so high that even missing out on 4 drones would constitute as an enormous fail in macro for you. But please compare my style to similar gas styles rather than something completely different. /endrant
I didn't read all the messages ( i just ctrl + f'ed ) and i am suprised that nobody speaks about Hydras. I am a mid Master Zerg and i am creating a " original " transition against Sentry/Robo all in.
I open as usual with double expand, 6min double gas, etc ...
When I scout late 2 gaz in oponent's natural, i immediatly put an Hydralisk Den and creat many Overlord. After 60 drones on 4 gas / 3 bases i creat many many ling to put pressure in the protoss's natural ( around 9min ), force forcefield and delay a little bit his push. When the Hydralisk Den is finish i creat as many Hydra as I can and attack with Ling/Hydra ( don't forget +1 range for them ).
Keep reinforcing with Ling/Hydra and add some Roaches because the Protoss will often go to Collosus.
If the Protoss was not going for a Sentry/Immo All in ( B3, or anything else on 4 gas ) just all in with Ling/Hydra => Roaches/Hydra with a proxy Nydus.
While I feel flattered that you compared me to Jaedong, I think you are comparing me to a no gas Zerg that didn't have a pylon block. If you really want to compare my macro ability with pros, I would recommend Dimaga, as he is the one I most emulate. For your pleasure I did some analysis from his games at Dreamhack Summer.
It's not about being jaedong's level, any player should be at at least 40+ supply by that point in time.
My third is already dead? You mean the instant protoss gets to my third, it is just insta-gibbed?
No, I mean because you have no means to stop a competent Toss from pushing straight into your third and securing a position that you cannot attack into (especially on a map like cloud kingdom, and even daybreak). Fortunately for you, you don't play Toss' who can execute a competent immortal/sentry all-in that will hit by 10:30.
No, I really don't see your gas steal being that effective, especially considering how much it delays you. It might delay a Toss going for a warp gate pressure, but this particular all-in is'nt pushing out the second warp gate is done. I used to do the same thing for a long time but i've stopped as I think it's a lot better to just bring the drone right home. i drone scout for gateway expands but seeing as how gateway expands dont get a core right away i think i'll stop doing that...
Please show me a replay of a Protoss killing a third at 10:20 while moving out at 9:30 with an immortal push with you delaying his push with Zerglings, I will gladly back off my claim if you can provide proof that that third is dead by 10:20.
At 10:30 Tails has not killed the third, but he is at the third on daybreak, with forcefields blocking his flank, killing the third, in a position the casters even call out as one that the third is 'killed' as in dead meat. I could find more replays/vods with some time of toss at zerg's third before 10:30. Most of them, like the one of Toss fighting at Zerg's third at 10:00, are engaging Zerg army because zerg engages, but it's obvious that if Toss was uncontested, he'd walk right into the third.
Actually the game of squirtle vs bbongbbong just linked above is a perfect example of a toss going up and attacking the third way before 10:30.
Despite me completely botching the control and thus not killing off the army in one go, I find myself in a similar 'you are boned' situation when I get more than 6 roaches forcefielded out anyway.
I don't see what miscontrol you are referring to. Your banelings hit perfectly, on top of all his sentries, and toss did what any toss would do, split his army up.
Please tell me more about how I don't know anything and that I'm just some shrub that does shit randomly. You're comparing apples with oranges here. I play a faster tech style that yes does have less drones by the 8 minute mark in favour of that faster tech, while you play a much more econ focussed style that gets gas later in favour of those extra drones. I don't go around spewing that your style is inviable because it gets ling speed out later than 8 minutes either, so why do you have to claim that this faster gas style only works in diamond while one of the top Zergs in EU, Dimaga ( as of now rank 36 in the world on the ladder ) has clearly shown that it does work in GM and yes tournament level games. These are two sides of the same coin, not 'this sucks and this rocks'.
dont mind me im just a grump. i think you post a lot of good stuff.
What you say about you getting a lair much quicker, makes a little more sense. I still don't understand though, given that Toss will throw his robo down at 5:30+ and you are taking your gas at 4:30+, I dont know how you know he's doing an immortal/sentry all-in before his build looks any different from any other toss opener...
I'm saying what I say because I have never seen any pro Zerg at gomtv use drop tech, to hold immortal/sentry (granted, every pro zerg that faces immortal/sentry loses except nestea holding it once and hyun holding it once, both with unconventional methods). On top of that, droptech can't be out in time against immortal/sentry all-ins. It seems like a lot of what you say, like about immortal sentry hitting at 11:00+, is based on *your* experiences (in diamond) rather than what is viable at higher levels of play.
I'll look over the dimaga replays later, I don't see how it's relevant though. Dimaga will be behind economically with his fast gas style if Toss plays a macro game. Speedlings alone won't hold +1 zealot pressure, also. And going for quicker gas like that just puts zerg behind in drones, if Dimaga, say, faced an immortal/sentry all-in, he'd be in a really tough spot for being a bit behind economically.
You are basically claiming that the answer to immortal/sentry is getting some sort of magical counter, but it's not - beating it is about macro, you have to have enough stuff. You are basically claiming it's not about macro. At least that's what I'm taking from it, and if you are facing such late immortal/sentry pushes, then I would see why.
I'm sorry, but you still haven't convinced me that baneling drops are viable. You have still yet to provide a replay of a Toss who is doing an immortal/sentry push that hits by 10:30 with at least 3 immortals, 6 sentries, and baneling droptech used to hold it.
Only way possible to get it in time is some sort of quick lair style, as you say, but I'm still skeptical that even with quick lair, you could use baneling drops to hold it. You have some replays of dimaga going quick gas, but I don't know how that is relevant, he isn't facing an immortal/sentry all-in. Maybe if I saw a high level pro replay, or a vod, of a zerg doing this, but sorry that I am a bit skeptical when a diamond zerg (not even diamond, even if another 1200 points masters zerg was saying it) is saying there's a way to beat an immortal/sentry all-in using something that no other pro or high level player has ever talked about, ever done, can't provide any replays to support it, is only based on their own ladder experiences, and has clearly not faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in. Cecil even said that this was really bad advice. I don't know what else would convince you that this isn't viable and that diamond replays aren't really going to be enough to convince people otherwise.
As little as my diamond tuppence is worth in this discussion, I've been having a lot of success against the plethora of 2 base all ins with hydra ling. Its still very rough but this is what I've been tending to do
I've been opening with 3 bases, 3 gas on 36 and speed > lair > +1 ranged attacks as the upgrades. 4 queens up, 3 for bases, 1 for creep spread (to help hydra mobility between bases), 4th gas around lair completion.Basically droning super hard until around scouting ~8mins.
If they push out, hydra ling tends to deal the damage to hold it off, while you steadily overwhelm them. If he pokes and sees hydras then moves back, you drop a spire and a nydus network, pushing to his front door to deal some damage while taking a 4th before colossus come up
If they take a 3rd, you start slamming pressure on the front door in a similar way with the nydus and punish it.
Its really rough, but pretty much based off of the day9 daily where ret's style is being discussed. I get the feeling a lot of ptoss will be like "wat?" upon seeing hydras again...
While I feel flattered that you compared me to Jaedong, I think you are comparing me to a no gas Zerg that didn't have a pylon block. If you really want to compare my macro ability with pros, I would recommend Dimaga, as he is the one I most emulate. For your pleasure I did some analysis from his games at Dreamhack Summer.
It's not about being jaedong's level, any player should be at at least 40+ supply by that point in time.
Provided they don't get pylon blocked and provided they go for a standard 6 minute double gas style. I cannot see the match of Jaedong considering that I don't have a GOM pass, so if you can tell me exactly what kind of build he is going for then we can see how our builds compare. That 40+ supply mark should be hit with a gasless style for sure, but unless you aren't meddled with it is hard to achieve with a fast gas style, that's why I ask you to compare players based on what builds they are going rather than comparing two seperate and different builds and noting that 'yep, he has drones out faster at this time' while that is a given in the first place.
My third is already dead? You mean the instant protoss gets to my third, it is just insta-gibbed?
No, I mean because you have no means to stop a competent Toss from pushing straight into your third and securing a position that you cannot attack into (especially on a map like cloud kingdom, and even daybreak). Fortunately for you, you don't play Toss' who can execute a competent immortal/sentry all-in that will hit by 10:30.
No, I really don't see your gas steal being that effective, especially considering how much it delays you. It might delay a Toss going for a warp gate pressure, but this particular all-in is'nt pushing out the second warp gate is done. I used to do the same thing for a long time but i've stopped as I think it's a lot better to just bring the drone right home. i drone scout for gateway expands but seeing as how gateway expands dont get a core right away i think i'll stop doing that...
The whole point of drops is that that impossible to attack into position never should go up by taking out the sentries. I haven't seen replays of you getting hit at that time consistantly anyway so I guess that you won't have to play competant tosses either. Not an attack on you, just a note that to your high standard, nobody gets competant until they hit their timings 100%, which rules out only about 99% of the population on the ladder.
Please show me a replay of a Protoss killing a third at 10:20 while moving out at 9:30 with an immortal push with you delaying his push with Zerglings, I will gladly back off my claim if you can provide proof that that third is dead by 10:20.
At 10:30 Tails has not killed the third, but he is at the third on daybreak, with forcefields blocking his flank, killing the third, in a position the casters even call out as one that the third is 'killed' as in dead meat. I could find more replays/vods with some time of toss at zerg's third before 10:30. Most of them, like the one of Toss fighting at Zerg's third at 10:00, are engaging Zerg army because zerg engages, but it's obvious that if Toss was uncontested, he'd walk right into the third.
Actually the game of squirtle vs bbongbbong just linked above is a perfect example of a toss going up and attacking the third way before 10:30.
Again, no GOM ticket. Could you be kind enough to list the units he has out in his push by this time? Because I'm pretty confident that 8 sentries and a round of Zealots easily get beaten by 24 Banelings, allowing the Zerglings to flood in straight after. I will grant you that it is hard to come back with your third lost, but without a third up for the Protoss and having the mobility of drops, it's not like you don't have the tools neccesary to harass the Protoss.
Despite me completely botching the control and thus not killing off the army in one go, I find myself in a similar 'you are boned' situation when I get more than 6 roaches forcefielded out anyway.
I don't see what miscontrol you are referring to. Your banelings hit perfectly, on top of all his sentries, and toss did what any toss would do, split his army up.
My Zerglings were attacking from behind while they should have been attacking from the front, attackign the retreating army. I should have waited until I got more Zerglings or roaches out and just posture the baneling drops rather than dropping them immediately. And I should have engaged the Immortals with the zerglings rather than the stalker fodder so a roach reinforcement could take out the rest of the army. Plenty of things went wrong in that engagement.
Please tell me more about how I don't know anything and that I'm just some shrub that does shit randomly. You're comparing apples with oranges here. I play a faster tech style that yes does have less drones by the 8 minute mark in favour of that faster tech, while you play a much more econ focussed style that gets gas later in favour of those extra drones. I don't go around spewing that your style is inviable because it gets ling speed out later than 8 minutes either, so why do you have to claim that this faster gas style only works in diamond while one of the top Zergs in EU, Dimaga ( as of now rank 36 in the world on the ladder ) has clearly shown that it does work in GM and yes tournament level games. These are two sides of the same coin, not 'this sucks and this rocks'.
dont mind me im just a grump. i think you post a lot of good stuff.
What you say about you getting a lair much quicker, makes a little more sense. I still don't understand though, given that Toss will throw his robo down at 5:30+ and you are taking your gas at 4:30+, I dont know how you know he's doing an immortal/sentry all-in before his build looks any different from any other toss opener...
You're taking a hit on your economy to have speed out in time for an 8 minute push so you won't have to invest gas into units. With that extra gas you can invest into +1/+1 for your Zerglings ( which make them absolutely rediculous, +2/+2 makes them so extremely cost effective that you can basically rely on getting three extra hatcheries, 1 macro hatch at the third and 2 extra bases, and still be safe enough to kill off a protoss push with Roach ling ). It's not like getting a gas earlier is only good when going for lair first, it has other advantages against other builds so you don't have to rely on roaches in the midgame as much unless you want to go for major pressure.
On August 17 2012 19:40 Belial88 wrote: I'm saying what I say because I have never seen any pro Zerg at gomtv use drop tech, to hold immortal/sentry (granted, every pro zerg that faces immortal/sentry loses except nestea holding it once and hyun holding it once, both with unconventional methods). On top of that, droptech can't be out in time against immortal/sentry all-ins. It seems like a lot of what you say, like about immortal sentry hitting at 11:00+, is based on *your* experiences (in diamond) rather than what is viable at higher levels of play.
I am not saying immo sentry hits at 11 minutes... I'm saying that drop tech can be out in time for an immortal sentry push that arives at your base around 10:20 to 10:30, albeit the timings are very tight. I've never said it was a guaranteed win or that it was the go to build to defend this push, much like the other options aren't. All I said that it might be a viable answer to the immortal sentry push that I prefer over just straight up losing because I got supplyblocked once, even against a diamond toss with bad timings. I can certainly work on my timings and macro to improve my defenses, but I'll keep on going for this style because it gives so much map controll against a Protoss that goes for a Robo build because of the drop tech.
On August 17 2012 19:40 Belial88 wrote: I'll look over the dimaga replays later, I don't see how it's relevant though. Dimaga will be behind economically with his fast gas style if Toss plays a macro game. Speedlings alone won't hold +1 zealot pressure, also. And going for quicker gas like that just puts zerg behind in drones, if Dimaga, say, faced an immortal/sentry all-in, he'd be in a really tough spot for being a bit behind economically.
You are basically claiming that the answer to immortal/sentry is getting some sort of magical counter, but it's not - beating it is about macro, you have to have enough stuff. You are basically claiming it's not about macro. At least that's what I'm taking from it, and if you are facing such late immortal/sentry pushes, then I would see why.
I'm not claiming that it is the magical answer, I'm claiming that it is one of the options.You don't have to do this to not die, but if you go for this style you aren't out by default either. You will need impeccable macro in all of the cases, beit mutaling counter attack or roach ling holds. All I'm saying is that you don't NEED 60 drones desperately to hold considering your main army will be Zerglings and banelings, which require a vastly lower drone saturation to support constant production than Roaches do.
On August 17 2012 19:40 Belial88 wrote: I'm sorry, but you still haven't convinced me that baneling drops are viable. You have still yet to provide a replay of a Toss who is doing an immortal/sentry push that hits by 10:30 with at least 3 immortals, 6 sentries, and baneling droptech used to hold it.
Only way possible to get it in time is some sort of quick lair style, as you say, but I'm still skeptical that even with quick lair, you could use baneling drops to hold it. You have some replays of dimaga going quick gas, but I don't know how that is relevant, he isn't facing an immortal/sentry all-in. Maybe if I saw a high level pro replay, or a vod, of a zerg doing this, but sorry that I am a bit skeptical when a diamond zerg (not even diamond, even if another 1200 points masters zerg was saying it) is saying there's a way to beat an immortal/sentry all-in using something that no other pro or high level player has ever talked about, ever done, can't provide any replays to support it, is only based on their own ladder experiences, and has clearly not faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in. Cecil even said that this was really bad advice. I don't know what else would convince you that this isn't viable and that diamond replays aren't really going to be enough to convince people otherwise.
It is okay if I don't convince you that it is viable, or infact any of the strategy forum, because I'm not GM and clearly any advice I give would be worse than they could muster out. I recognize that my evidence has been light to say the least. The only thing I came here to actually defend was your insisted pounding on my lower drone count and supply counts at 6 and 8 minutes, while I have clearly stated that those will be lower regardless of having impeccable macro because of my earlier gas style.
I haven't proven that the baneling drop style works, which isn't why I posted that replay in the first place. I posted it to refute the claim that drop CAN'T be out in time for the push, while it clearly can be. You can keep on putting disbelief in that specific style because my evidence has been light, all I'm saying that drop can infact be out in time ( moreso if you go lair before speed, which I didnt in the replay ) and that the tech can be out to defend against this all in. Whether it is the most optimal build ever in terms of dronecount was never my intention of proving, more so it's just an option that I personally go for at 2000 MMR.
On August 17 2012 20:13 Gregseh wrote: As little as my diamond tuppence is worth in this discussion, I've been having a lot of success against the plethora of 2 base all ins with hydra ling. Its still very rough but this is what I've been tending to do
I've been opening with 3 bases, 3 gas on 36 and speed > lair > +1 ranged attacks as the upgrades. 4 queens up, 3 for bases, 1 for creep spread (to help hydra mobility between bases), 4th gas around lair completion.Basically droning super hard until around scouting ~8mins.
If they push out, hydra ling tends to deal the damage to hold it off, while you steadily overwhelm them. If he pokes and sees hydras then moves back, you drop a spire and a nydus network, pushing to his front door to deal some damage while taking a 4th before colossus come up
If they take a 3rd, you start slamming pressure on the front door in a similar way with the nydus and punish it.
Its really rough, but pretty much based off of the day9 daily where ret's style is being discussed. I get the feeling a lot of ptoss will be like "wat?" upon seeing hydras again...
I can imagine that working at our level, but it's really not viable. Hydras just suck too much. They're barely cost-effective against stalkers, I believe a zealot wins 1v1, and 1 colo will ruin your day. In theory it's not that bad, but all your hydras become useless once a colossus or storm enters the field. Also they're slow, vulnerable to force fields, really low health. Also, any build that skips roaches is vulnerable to gateway timings. You can't get hydras in time, and splings are bad vs +1 zealots.
Chaos, I'm actually surprised you're only 2000MMR. Your guides are great and have helped me win a ton, I'm surprised you're not mid+ masters. Do you just not play enough to really refine mechanics? Just curious, seems the strategy's there!
EPT
