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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
Now if you're outclassing the opponent I can imagine this working, but against an evenly matched opponent I don't like my chances. Anyone has any luck with Hydra/Ling? I just don't see the point of making Roaches and the Toss composition is specifically designed to slaughter Roaches  | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 26 2012 05:34 Kraelog wrote: I've just been watching Jaedong on his stream and his response against the AI is almost indentical to the one proposed by the two above posters. The problem is still have (aside from Jaedong still losing) is that you can only win if the Protoss overextends. Even delaying the push over and over only means the Toss ball becomes bigger and bigger to the point where no amount of ling/roach can deal with it. Basically when there are 10+ Sentry the amount of FF is almost infinite. Now if you're outclassing the opponent I can imagine this working, but against an evenly matched opponent I don't like my chances. Anyone has any luck with Hydra/Ling? I just don't see the point of making Roaches and the Toss composition is specifically designed to slaughter Roaches Hydra ling works pretty well but it's not auto-win If the toss composition is too big, probably hydra-ling will loose. Would need some testings. If the protoss goes out too late, it could be good if zerg had drops. This way, he could tradebase and be sure to win... (zerg always win tradebase) | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
 Really thorough; I tried it out and really like it. So to clarify, you skip +1 cara and completely stop using lings, except for the initial ~20 to delay him? Like slow roaches with double creep spread is a good idea. Does it not work to take a 5:45 double gas then go lair->speed and get it done in time? | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On December 26 2012 06:16 Mavvie wrote: Wow sCCrooked, merry fucking Christmas Really thorough; I tried it out and really like it. So to clarify, you skip +1 cara and completely stop using lings, except for the initial ~20 to delay him? Like slow roaches with double creep spread is a good idea. Does it not work to take a 5:45 double gas then go lair->speed and get it done in time? I know the question was to sccroocked but this is exactly how I play and it does work good (5:45 gas). Earlier roach speed lets you to be aggresive with your roaches as well not with just lings and force the fight right outside toss base or somewhere in the middle of the map when his army is still relatively weak. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 26 2012 06:16 Mavvie wrote: Wow sCCrooked, merry fucking Christmas Really thorough; I tried it out and really like it. So to clarify, you skip +1 cara and completely stop using lings, except for the initial ~20 to delay him? Like slow roaches with double creep spread is a good idea. Does it not work to take a 5:45 double gas then go lair->speed and get it done in time? Merry Xmas to all of you as well. I was with family until literally just now so I hope you'll forgive the late response. I skip the evo chamber at the usual 7:00-ish mark and get it around 8:00 with the macro hatch. Since the very nature of the push means they will have chrono'd out +1 attack, it would probably be better to upgrade melee or something since once you hold this, you will be pushing back and killing him off. I still make lings but its a lot less. You basically go PURE ling to throw him into zealot-production and then behind it you make nothing but pure roach which really hard-counters his zealots. Then he has a bunch of sentries with next to no energy left and the 3 immortals. With enough roaches, you should be able to pick them off or at least kill all the sentries so he can't protect his army anymore. I've tried the 5:45 gas into lair -> speed, but I just don't like when speed finishes. I need to be able to prevent any possible proxy pylons and I feel that speed with slightly delayed lair (I mean its only 50 seconds or so from normal) deals with this fine. Roach speed even with an 8:00 lair or so will come right around 10:30 and it lets you get more units out NOW and then boost the macro. The units are necessary because of the very weak and vulnerable move-out stage of the P from his natural. Then you invest a bit into roach speed, an evo and a macro hatch because you know around that later time is when he can actually have a warp prism to reinforce. You're matching his early unit moveout with early units and you're matching his macro-reinforcement timings with your own macro investment timings. The truth is against Top 50 GMs, I've found that roaches in the field engagements are actually pretty damn bad because you really NEED them in mass to stop this. I know that because there's immortals and sentries it seems counter-intuitive, but if you make ENOUGH STUFF, you can stop it. That being said, many strategies will be viable at the ladder level which is what this thread is for. So in my opinion, many styles need to be looked at and further testing is necessary on literally all of them. Far more extensive than what we have compiled so far. This is only what I've found works at top GM on the NA server and also what worked vs Parting himself. Its up to you if you want to follow it or if you feel that an alternative style works. However when creating and testing these, its very important to note that unless you're playing an extremely powerful GM level Protoss, you will not be testing against a true immortal/sentry and will not be facing nearly the challenge that exists at the top. It doesn't make them any less viable since most likely we're not all GMs and thusly won't be facing this sort of execution. The beauty in this build is that while its essentially trying to metagame the immo/sentry all-in, it actually works incredibly well as a really freakin HARD counter to the immo/sentry expand too. The reason for this should be obvious. Immo/sentry expand and all-in have similar move-out times. The all-in has 7 gates of pure reinforcement and nothing but army afterwards. The expand has 4-5 gates and makes army only if necessary. If you have enough units with proper timing to crush the all-in with 7 gates and more army, you can obliterate the expand. If you see a fast robo or something else very indicative of the all-in (seeing mass sentries, seeing immortals, etc) being aggressive is your best bet in any scenario though. Whether they move for a third or move for your third, you'll need units and fast. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 26 2012 21:56 Insoleet wrote: Do you have some replays to share with us ? I'd like to see how it works and try to do it by myself after.. I shared 2 replays a page or 2 ago but I'm trying to get a larger compilation of maybe 20-30 times of myself doing this. I haven't managed to get the guys together though since everyone is kinda doing stuff for the holidays at the moment, but as soon as we're all back in business I should have a GM replay pack of this style. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
Why is this defense not in this guide? It is solid and not based on micro. See this link http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5452705707?page=1#7 | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
In your post you say to start spines at 9:30 if he has no third at 10:00. Apart from the fact that this is impossible (benefit of the doubt; it's perfectly fine to assume that he IS doing sentry/immortal if you scout the fast 4 gas, quick robo with no obs, etc), 9:30 is about 1 minute too late to start spines. Depending on the map, you can't actually get enough spines to defend. If you want pure spines, you need about 10 at every engagement point. On a map like entombed or daybreak this can work, but on ohana/cloud kingdom/TDA/condemned etc you can't get enough spines up to kill his army, especially after a zealot warpin or two to buffer. Immortals still demolish spines, and sentries still prevent the rest of your army from engaging. It's a coinflip. If done perfectly, it CAN defend sentry/immortal on some maps. If he doesn't sentry/immortal all in, you lose (or are extremely far behind). I'm a bigger fan of a Sen-style fast +1 carapace using mass ling and engaging midmap against the first moveout, using 4-5 spines at third and natural to give the bit of support needed to force Protoss away, as well as the style that Life/sCCrooked use. It's very strong and doesn't really matter on the map or what build your opponent does. It works great against a robo/twilight expand, or fake sentry/immortal all in into third. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
On December 30 2012 06:23 LoveTool wrote: MASS SPINES - suppy defense ! Why is this defense not in this guide? It is solid and not based on micro. See this link http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5452705707?page=1#7 Because usually it doesn't work. If you know 100% sure that he's going AI immo/sentry you can on some maps try to plant a spine crawler forest but I've never really seen it work. The main problem is that you can't both plant enough spines at your third AND you natural so if the Toss has an observer or just scouts a bit with his warp prism you're screwed. If you spine wall your third he'll walk into your natural and its gg and if you spine walled your natural you lose your third and the Toss can safely take his third => gg. In the youtube video posted in the thread you linked Suppy did defend with the aformentioned strategy but the Toss could have won easily with 3 immo, 8 stalkers & 8 sentry against the 8 spines & no army left on the third. Or if he went straight to the natural it would also have been over. The only way Spine forest can work in my experience, is if you're on a large map with cross spots and you rush 3base muta. Then the walk distance gives you enough time to harass with muta's & plant a big enough forest. But I doubt good Toss (not the ones I play against :p) would go immo/sentry in those positions. EDIT: Dammit Mavie -_- | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
The Protoss didn't attack into it like Parting, he killed a couple of spines at first, but gave up quickly and went back and took his 3rd. Then he teched to Colossus off 3 bases and did another push. As Toss was building his deathball, Jaedong retook his 3rd, moved his spines forward to protect it and kept trying to take a 4th in pretty much every position on the map, and the Toss kept denying it with Zealots and Warp Prism, but Jaedong succeeded in the end and I think it went unscouted. By the time the push came JD barely had Broodlords out and was able to hold, and from there it was gg. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
I should also mention that when you start so many spines, they will not all be done when the attack normally hits (around 10 min yes), which means they can be cancelled if toss takes a late third. The obvious reason (which you understand when you try this) is that you can't start 20+ spines all simultaneously at 9-930 or so, you just dont have that bank so you will have to spine up in rounds. This means that you start to spine up before you are 100 % sure in terms of identification, and if there is a late toss third you cancel all building spines, take a fourth and use the finished spines (8-10) to defend it + your third. In my book this is not a bad position. Fact remains this defense is a good option, and far better than some of the ones in the OP's guide. It should be in the guide. That you prefer something else is quite frankly not really relevant in that context. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
On December 30 2012 06:42 sitromit wrote: Jaedong on his stream made the mass spine thing work today on Antiga cross positions. He abandoned the 3rd the moment he saw the first Sentries moving out of the Protoss base, and delayed it a little bit by running his lings around. He never made Roaches so had more gas for Infestors. They came out just in time, barely. The Protoss didn't attack into it like Parting, he killed a couple of spines at first, but gave up quickly and went back and took his 3rd. Then he teched to Colossus off 3 bases and did another push. As Toss was building his deathball, Jaedong retook his 3rd, moved his spines forward to protect it and kept trying to take a 4th in pretty much every position on the map, and the Toss kept denying it with Zealots and Warp Prism, but Jaedong succeeded in the end and I think it went unscouted. By the time the push came JD barely had Broodlords out and was able to hold, and from there it was gg. I saw this game also, it was aired today. Good variation of spine defense @nat based on sacking third while getting infestors. Only reason he was forced to do is that he identified the build TOO LATE, so much more impressive to recover so easily as he did. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On December 30 2012 06:57 LoveTool wrote: Mavvie, you are trying to be a smart ass by trying to twist my words in that post. Instead, I suggest you just check out the links with multiple tournament level replays discussed by Suppy himself. He is a pro gamer and has even beaten Parting with it even when Parting completely abused the map (antigua) where he elevated into the main to avoid the spines and still fails. I should also mention that when you start so many spines, they will not all be done when the attack normally hits (around 10 min yes), which means they can be cancelled if toss takes a late third. The obvious reason (which you understand when you try this) is that you can't start 20+ spines all simultaneously at 9-930 or so, you just dont have that bank so you will have to spine up in rounds. Fact remains this defense is a good option, and far better than some of the ones in the OP's guide. It should be in the guide. That you prefer something else is quite frankly not really relevant in that context. I didn't twist your words, that's what you said. I also said that it's no big deal because it's perfectly reasonable to be fairly sure of what Protoss is doing before 9:00. It worked in one game. Nobody else has tried it, and PartinG himself said in an interview that it wouldn't have worked if he hadn't attacked into Suppy. Also see Kraelog's post. It doesn't work reliably. There's other coinflip ways of dealing with it like banelings, burrow tactics, 2 base drop play (arguably not the worst against other builds), etc. Nevertheless, I missed the links of Suppy discussing it and the replays so I'll check them out now. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 30 2012 06:57 LoveTool wrote: Mavvie, you are trying to be a smart ass by trying to twist my words in that post. Instead, I suggest you just check out the links with multiple tournament level replays discussed by Suppy himself. He is a pro gamer and has even beaten Parting with it even when Parting completely abused the map (antigua) where he elevated into the main to avoid the spines and still fails. I should also mention that when you start so many spines, they will not all be done when the attack normally hits (around 10 min yes), which means they can be cancelled if toss takes a late third. The obvious reason (which you understand when you try this) is that you can't start 20+ spines all simultaneously at 9-930 or so, you just dont have that bank so you will have to spine up in rounds. This means that you start to spine up before you are 100 % sure in terms of identification, and if there is a late toss third you cancel all building spines, take a fourth and use the finished spines (8-10) to defend it + your third. In my book this is not a bad position. Fact remains this defense is a good option, and far better than some of the ones in the OP's guide. It should be in the guide. That you prefer something else is quite frankly not really relevant in that context. I'll ignore your silly ad hominem against Mavvie and just get straight to a response. Basically although there's lots of potentially viable ways to stop this, this is amongst the most costly and situation-dependent I've ever seen. I'm watching your youtube link right now but just realize that your timings mentioned are late. ** Double-EDIT ** I checked your youtube link to ChanmanV's episode.... where was the immo/sentry build? I literally saw 4 gate +1 pressures and 1 immo/sentry expand after a failed Warp Prism. Unless I completely missed it, 0 of the 4 replays were the immo/sentry all-in. I just checked out your other link with eFragWinter. The game he showed for "immo/sentry all-in" was the P arriving at his base affter 11:00. That's incredibly bad timing and if I haven't stressed it enough with all my research here I'll say it again: Timing is absolutely everything in PvZ and even moreso when using the immo/sentry all-in. If the replay showcased does anything other than what Parting does down to the letter, its not a viable strategy since the version faced is beyond sub-optimal. If you're going to show something as a source, full 3 immortals and 9+ sentries better be moving out from his natural at 8:40-8:50. The first shots from his immo/sentry/gateway army also better be hitting your third absolutely no later than 9:40 and even that is generously late by almost 10 full seconds. Anything and I really do mean anything that varies even a little from those timings should not be used as a basis for creating a counter. If you know how to stop the optimized version from the progamer and creator himself, everyone else is a bloody joke. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
I didn't twist your words, that's what you said. Well, I feel that you are actually. Read the post again AND check out the link. It is not my build, it is Suppy's. My post was written in like 10 minutes based on some notes I took while watching the episode and AFTER trying the build out. Its possible I've misrepresented what he does, but if I did I don't think it is significant. What I actually wrote is I listed a number of individual hints that protoss is all inning w s/i, and how to respond. As zerg you will have to use this check list as a guide line to identify the all in. Suppy explains this in the link referenced. Basically, the more of the indicators that are identified, the higher the percentage that there is an all in coming. I did NOT write that you should not respond until 10 minutes. You can't play like that and Suppy does not suggest that either, of course. You start responding earlier and COMMIT once you are sure. Obviously, no counter to this build is a magic pill. Sentry/Immortal is a very strong attack. This is one way to deal with it and as any counter to something strong it will have possible drawbacks. Any response needs practice to work well. Anyway, here are two links for convenience for anyone who wants to for an opinion of their own. The first one covers other 2-base attacks also, so if you are only into the s/i defense you might have to skip a bit into it. Suppy on ChanmanV, ZvP stopping 2base attacks (incl s/i all in) Suppy on day9 daily beating Parting on Antigua (w. P map abuse) In other news. Another cool way I've seen to deal with it is spining the main ramp and nydusing, TLO did this a few times in a few games a couple of months ago. He said in an interview that this is now his standard response to that all in. Not sure if I've seen it broken down anywhere, would be interesting if someone knew more about that. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
On December 30 2012 07:15 sCCrooked wrote: If the replay showcased does anything other than what Parting does down to the letter, its not a viable strategy since the version faced is beyond sub-optimal. Anything and I really do mean anything that varies even a little from those timings should not be used as a basis for creating a counter. If you know how to stop the optimized version from the progamer and creator himself, everyone else is a bloody joke. I guess, if you are a pro player planning to play Parting that is true. For most of us who are just normal players for fun, I'm not so sure. You are probably right though, I guess I should not post here. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 30 2012 07:45 LoveTool wrote: Ok, fair. Well, I feel that you are actually. Read the post again AND check out the link. It is not my build, it is Suppy's. My post was written in like 10 minutes based on some notes I took while watching the episode and AFTER trying the build out. Its possible I've misrepresented what he does, but if I did I don't think it is significant. What I actually wrote is I listed a number of individual hints that protoss is all inning w s/i, and how to respond. As zerg you will have to use this check list as a guide line to identify the all in. Suppy explains this in the link referenced. Basically, the more of the indicators that are identified, the higher the percentage that there is an all in coming. I did NOT write that you should not respond until 10 minutes. You can't play like that and Suppy does not suggest that either, of course. You start responding earlier and COMMIT once you are sure. Obviously, no counter to this build is a magic pill. Sentry/Immortal is a very strong attack. This is one way to deal with it and as any counter to something strong it will have possible drawbacks. Any response needs practice to work well. Anyway, here are two links for convenience for anyone who wants to for an opinion of their own. The first one covers other 2-base attacks also, so if you are only into the s/i defense you might have to skip a bit into it. Suppy on ChanmanV, ZvP stopping 2base attacks (incl s/i all in) Suppy on day9 daily beating Parting on Antigua (w. P map abuse) In other news. Another cool way I've seen to deal with it is spining the main ramp and nydusing, TLO did this a few times in a few games a couple of months ago. He said in an interview that this is now his standard response to that all in. Not sure if I've seen it broken down anywhere, would be interesting if someone knew more about that. I actually have a note for your second link with suppy winning vs parting. Parting actually screwed up his build in this replay. He doesn't even move out until 9:30 or so. In his games vs Life, he was actually already firing shots onto Life's army at Life's natural at 9:30. TLO's method is very similar to the spine method we used to use in base-trading before Parting figured out how to stop that too. Basically he spines up as soon as the army would arrive at the third. Using all drones pulled from the third, he makes like 12-14 spines up at the top. He mines from his natural as long as the P will permit, and then pulls those drones as well making more spines and whatnot. Around the same time his third is being hit, he just loads all his roach/ling into the nydus and drops 1 worm in the main and 1 in the natural allowing him to kill both bases at once without having to worry about sentries forcefielding ramps. We already knew this one worked though and then we saw some P actually kill the third and intead of going up to the spines, they warped in units at home to kill the worms that were still in the process of building and just went home having done all the damage (3rd gone and ALL drones made into spines is the same as killing them off) he needed to do. Then P just took a third and continued as if nothing had happened. *EDIT* I guess, if you are a pro player planning to play Parting that is true. For most of us who are just normal players for fun, I'm not so sure. You are probably right though, I guess I should not post here. That's why we added all sorts of methods to the OP so you have a variety. We realize P players aren't Parting or they'd all be at the top like he is. Most of them will be vulnerable since they haven't the sheer experience that Parting does when he covers himself upon moving out. I encourage you to post here, but don't tell us that you have some all-fix or something and not expect us to look it over. There's bound to be holes in almost every example and we realize this, but its important that you mention those shortcomings of your examples in your presentation of them. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
As sCCrooked already explained, there are sufficient blind! counters to the immo/sentry allin. Pooling +1k mins to make mass spines is one of them. The extremely risky 2base muta someone else posted in another thread is also good. Baneling carpet bombs actually works incredibly well etc... The problem is that these are BLIND counters. Unless you decide at 5mins you want to defend a possible Immo AI you can't get ready for it. Whenever you are ready with baneling bombs, Spine forests with nydus, mass hydra etc.. and the Protoss decide to just take his third, you are screwed. Even if you see 2 immortals & 5+ sentries you can't be sure he isn't taking a passive third whilest anticipating the Zerg messing up his economy by overcompensating the defence against an immo/sentry allin. You will be miles behind on tech which means a pre-BL push will utterly own you since your infestors/BL are delayed extremely and your countermeasures to the phantom immo push are useless. Which is why most highlevel posters here are still experimenting with ling/roach builds since when the Toss decides to expand, you can actually do something besides cursing.... | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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