|
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple!  Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps.
hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
|
On December 21 2012 06:31 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps. hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o
The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
|
On December 21 2012 08:27 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 06:31 sCCrooked wrote:On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps. hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings.
It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post.
For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
|
On December 21 2012 08:33 KarneEspada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:27 Zennith wrote:On December 21 2012 06:31 sCCrooked wrote:On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps. hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings. It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
Can you post the rep?
|
On December 21 2012 08:35 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:33 KarneEspada wrote:On December 21 2012 08:27 Zennith wrote:On December 21 2012 06:31 sCCrooked wrote:On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps. hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings. It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones. Can you post the rep?
I'd like to ask him first just in case he'd rather I not for some reason. In the mean time I am going to continue laddering today and see if I can make a good example of my own. :D I may actually already have a replay of my own, let me look...
|
On December 21 2012 08:39 KarneEspada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:35 Defenestrator wrote:On December 21 2012 08:33 KarneEspada wrote:On December 21 2012 08:27 Zennith wrote:On December 21 2012 06:31 sCCrooked wrote:On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps. hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings. It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones. Can you post the rep? I'd like to ask him first just in case he'd rather I not for some reason. In the mean time I am going to continue laddering today and see if I can make a good example of my own. :D I may actually already have a replay of my own, let me look...
The reason I ask is because I think that point about 38 lings outside his base at 9:15~9:20 is pretty key, but I'm not sure at what point you need to stop droning and start producing units to hit this benchmark. Can you provide some supply/timing benchmarks that someone should be hitting in order to achieve this (like post-7:00 benchmarks)?
|
On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00.
Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build:
A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish.
Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order.
Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it.
Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
I have no idea how you manage to have carapace, ling speed and lair off of two gasses taken at 6:00 all ready at 9:20. Is this even mathematically possible? My carapace finishes at like 10:30.
|
On December 21 2012 10:46 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00.
Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build:
A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish.
Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order.
Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it.
Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
I have no idea how you manage to have carapace, ling speed and lair off of two gasses taken at 6:00 all ready at 9:20. Is this even mathematically possible? My carapace finishes at like 10:30.
No it isn't, with his build carapace will finish at around the 10:20 mark, however I assume this isn't an issue for the mass ling surround at 9:15. To my knowledge +1 attack does not finish for the protoss until later in the push so having carapace at that point is unnecessary. However I am more curious about how he affords such an early macro hatchery and a roach warren + evo at 6:30 (not sure if i read this wrong but 6:30 is earlier than normal).
|
United Kingdom20282 Posts
On December 21 2012 08:33 KarneEspada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:27 Zennith wrote:On December 21 2012 06:31 sCCrooked wrote:On December 21 2012 06:18 KarneEspada wrote:Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this. Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple! Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2. The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 10:00 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! Obviously this may not work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. Thanks, I hope this helps. hihi, is your buddy on the NA server? I'd love to see this style in action but I'm probably not the one to attempt it. It sounds viable though since its similar to what I do, except I have roach/ling (about 30+ speedlings first though). I have some GM friends who could do the immo/sentry to them :o The problem is, he's saying he has the lings by 10 minutes. By 10 minutes on Ohana, a good protoss is basically at your base. And that's too late for lings. It depends on the version of the push, if it's a faster version you can still easily have the lings there ready in time. 10:00 is just the absolute max. In general you should have the lings there 9:20, I should be more specific and add that to my post. For example, I watched my GM friend play this vs. a GM protoss on Ohana, he had 38 lings outside of his base at 9:19 with 18 on the way and 58 drones.
Its still too late. PartinG moves out with 3 immortals, ~8 sentries and stalker at 8:50, and you are wrong, +1 attack can be worked in if you just build it instead of one of the 3 sentries pre-warpgate or something along those lines. If you are betting on him not having +1 attack at 9:20, well, i hope you are feeling lucky.
You overestimate the ability of random masters (or even gm) players to execute immortal all in. They are nowhere close to PartinG. With 20-30 games practice you can get pretty close, its sad that people dont even take the time to do this, but its the truth, even at high master. The game will be decided before 10:20 if he moves correctly and you are fighting with almost pure ling waiting for carapace.
|
I think more zergs should start doing 2base muta (lair before speed) with ~1ling+queen to deny scout of the lair while 1ling scouts for probes
go muta/ling to start, then when he adds in collossi you get corrupter+muta+ling.
your first engagements of muta/ling are all about killing sentries. a-move, kill all sentries with mutas, run away. keep killing sentries and muta/ling trades effectively against protoss pre-collossi
post collossi, start adding in corrupters instead of muta. fly in with muta/corrupter, kill all the collossi, THEN swarm in with 100 zerglings against the gateway army
because your only gas is spent on mutas/upgrades, you can get dual evo chambers and power out 3/3 lings asap and compete with the tosses upgrades. then cracklings plus ultralisks and broodlords is insane
|
On December 22 2012 11:27 slipskentime wrote:
I think more zergs should start doing 2base muta (lair before speed) with ~1ling+queen to deny scout of the lair while 1ling scouts for probes
go muta/ling to start, then when he adds in collossi you get corrupter+muta+ling.
your first engagements of muta/ling are all about killing sentries. a-move, kill all sentries with mutas, run away. keep killing sentries and muta/ling trades effectively against protoss pre-collossi
post collossi, start adding in corrupters instead of muta. fly in with muta/corrupter, kill all the collossi, THEN swarm in with 100 zerglings against the gateway army
because your only gas is spent on mutas/upgrades, you can get dual evo chambers and power out 3/3 lings asap and compete with the tosses upgrades. then cracklings plus ultralisks and broodlords is insane
But against standard non-all in styles, this is really, really bad.
|
2-base infestor, however, is not really really bad. You can play it as a macro style and just rely on the supreme cost-efficiency of infestors to give you an edge. Zerg with infestors seems to be fine on equal bases with Protoss.
|
I'd just like to state in spoiler for those of you who haven't seen the finals from last night:
+ Show Spoiler +2 pages ago I said:[
We found 52 was too few, but that 56-58 drones can be safely achieved with the normal tech timings on the opener and still get forces out in time to deal with it Last night when Life held ParTinG's immo/sentry all-in, he stopped at precisely 56 drones. It seems we have something that works against the creator of the build himself at last. Lings to stop it with roaches once you see them trying to expand is the way to go.
|
It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On December 23 2012 05:16 Rossie wrote:
It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
this is not only not helpful, its not new to us and just based on this statement, I can tell you've never faced any high level execution of this build.
|
On December 23 2012 05:16 Rossie wrote:
It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
Please, go ahead and post your replays of you easily beating pro-level immortal all ins. I would like to see how you find it easy to hold.
|
On December 23 2012 05:16 Rossie wrote:
It's not hard to defeat the sentry-immortal all-in. You merely have to make Toss waste their force fields on the other side of the map. Then it's gg. The fact that this appears to be an "advanced concept" for Zerg players says a lot about the creativity, or rather the lack thereof, of that community.
User was temp banned for this post.
17 Sentries worth of forcefields baited out? LOL
|
Has anyone figured out how to stop the immo/sentry AI with Hydra/Lings? I've been using the composition with mixed succes but it seems the only one having a real chance aside from toss messing up terribly.
Here is how my games usually proceed:
15p/16h, 3rd base, gas at 6.00, rw & evo chamber. 6.30-7.00 double OL scout to see what is going on.
If I spot a robo/immortal and some sentry's.
Ling Speed, Lair, Macro Hatch, Hydra Den the moment Lair is done & immediate Hydra range.
I start massing lings but I keep 10-15 larva pooled since i'm screwed if he goes for a third and I made a ton of hydra's.
When he moves out I delay with lings as long as possible and make 10-15 Hydra's. When he arrives at my base I usually crush the attack fairly easily.
The problem I have on certain maps (Shakuras, Ohana)is when he pulls back when he sees hydra's and warps in MORE sentrys. As wierd as it sounds, he comes back with +- 10 sentry's and with a double FF wall he pushes away my army so he can just bloody walk into my natural & perma FF behind him. With a double FF wall my army can't hit anything and obviously I can't split up my army into my natural. So what on earth can i do? Going hydra delays further tech so I most likely won't have infestors ready in time.
Note: I'm only top Diamond so obviously my macro isn't really good so the basic advice is just macro better.And I certainly do not disagree with that. But on the other hand the Toss is equally bad (ideal timing +xmins..) so even if I just outmacro my way into Master i'll still have the same question against better Toss
|
I realized I never really compiled all my findings spread out in this thread into 1 post so here goes:
sCCroooked's findings regarding stopping the immortal/sentry all-in from the last 5 months of extensive testing
The best response in my opinion is roach/ling but with a variation on how you execute it.
First off, most Zs go lair first vs P. This is no longer possible with immo/sentry being so popular as it strikes before lair tech units can be out. The immo/sentry expand also has given P a very safe option to expand with this composition and its incredibly hard to tell the difference as a Z, while even a slight delay in the proper reaction could result in a game over.
To stop the immortal all-in, we must recognize its formation and its execution first.
-3 immortals + many sentries move out of natural base with warp prism on the way and a probe or 2 to build pylons
During this first stage, all the P will have is immortal/sentry with no zealot/stalker except possibly 1 single stalker which isn't a significant factor we have to consider in this since the counter-unit is the same.
So what kills 1 stalker/sentries and immortals? Bunch of speedlings! If they forcefield, even better because it still helps your cause out.
-The remaining immortals/sentries and the pylons/warp-prism will gather together in a single spot and defend it with ffs and firing behind the wall. Seeing such mass lings during the first stage of our engagements will almost always force zealot warp-ins. If they warp in stalkers, its just begging for more lings to be made.
This stage is incredibly important because its right around now that the attack looks a lot more threatening with all the warp-ins adding to its power. Since you forced a lot of zealots, make a roach round to deal with it and pre-rally them into a flank at home. They won't have speed done just yet so they're useless off creep. Position these in a nice big circle to lead them into. After 1-2 warps of zealots, you probably won't be able to force any ffs unless the P gets careless since most Ps will realize they're safe behind 14 zealots from your lings and can stop the sentry/immo from being attacked. Try to pick off sentries if you can, but whatever you do, don't waste your lings.
-Finally, the P is completely set up with immo/sentry and will be attacking into one of your bases with the intention of continually reinforcing with zealot/stalker and then winning right there.
Hopefully by this point, you've exhausted almost all the sentry energy. They might have enough for 1 more big donut of forcefields, but that should be it and you can get in with the next wave of roach/ling.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that we've broken that down and how to respond in each stage, how do we achieve all these timings?
I'd recommend following fenner's build order from this video.
Its very greedy and gets a warren too late for things like 8 gate +2 blink allins or something, but its perfect for the latest meta which is 3 base collossi pushes off immo/sentry or SG expand or the immo/sentry all-in off 2 bases. You really don't see much 4 gate +1 pressure into all-in or those as much these days.
However we're going to make a few changes to Fenner's build order for this particular all-in.
The beauty of this version is that I've found it not only works against immo/sentry all-in, but it also is fast enough and with enough economy and tech to completely kill P who use the immo/sentry as an expand off 5 gates or so.
At this point, I'm assuming everyone has seen the video or can get to 70+ supply before 7:30 rather easily (you really want before 7:15, but 7:30 is a good round number for general use here) so I shouldn't have to explain that build part. We're just going to point out all the variation changes we need to stop this push.
-Speed first, then lair (reason is we need speed to be done no later than 8:30 or so for that 8:50 first stage)
-Stop at no more than 56 drones. (reason for this is larva + timing. Those 4-8 larva can be 16 speedlings instead of drones and stopping at this number does not dent your economy badly)
-Delay macro hatch until your first ling round is made
-Spread Creep with at least 2 tumors. I usually do one with my natural queen and then once again around 50 supply mark and 6:00 from the third base
Using these variations, you get speedlings out quicker in time to deal with the oncoming push. You also have roach tech (which wouldn't have speed even close to done anyways even if lair was done) massing slowly at your base.
The purpose of these lings is more harassment. Treat them like you would a muta flock of 10 or so when facing a Terran base that already has turrets but is trying to build more on the edges or something. Its a volatile force you're facing and a few good ffs can catch some lings, so pay attention to this force very carefully.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well now that we see the variations, how do we execute this?
-While active with your lings on the map engaging his first push-out, target sentries and probes/pylons above all else. If you're REALLY lucky he'll screw up and you can surround an immortal in which case definitely take it, but this would be a rather large blunder so don't count on it. You can quite possibly pick off all probes thus crippling his reinforcement abilities and might even get a sentry or 2 killed.
-Make a round of pure roach at home after your 20-30 speedlings
-Continue to engage and surround with lings while on the map. Do not move your roaches! You basically want to set them up and then lure them into this attacking spot with the flank already set up.
-Its ok to make a few lings if you see your group of lings got ff'd or something and it caused you to lose a lot of them, but concentrate mainly on roaches. If you see they still have a considerable amount of ffs when they reach your base, you can suicide the remaining ling bunch trying to bait some more or take out some sentries.
As soon as you see them actually at your base, its time for the big attack. You need to snap that big 3 or even 4 way arc of roaches around them and prepare to back them off once he makes a donut of ffs. If you did a good job with the lings, this should be his final ffs you're seeing.
After this point, its ok to make either roaches or lings depending on what you see happening. Its very dependent at this point so I can't really guide farther than this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are there other factors I should consider?
Yes! There are things like engagement places and looking for likely places for pylons to be hidden.
On a map like Entombed, make sure that small arc behind the middle-left and middle-right rocked-off expansions is cleared. P love hiding stuff back there.
Any areas that have vision-blockers like shrubs or trees need to be checked thoroughly. A good P will send 2 probes to make pylons just in case you see one of them with the army, there's another one running around sneakily setting up places they can reinforce on the map. Sniping those probes is HUGE if you can pull it off.
In a proper engagement of the roaches, you want to set up the flanks long before you'll actually have him in there. The longer you're able to keep him busy, the more roaches you can have waiting for him there. On a map like Ohana, its very likely they'll snake up around onto where you'd normally build your 4th base and try to set up a position there.
Since you already know probably where he'll engage (Daybreak on your third's choke, Cloud Kingdom on that snaking back path to your third, etc), it shouldn't be hard to rally the eggs to different places so you have a huge flank already set up. I can't stress how important this is.
Try to save the lings as much as possible while harassing the crap out of sentries. They buy you time and weaken his potential with baiting ffs and killing sentries/probes/pylons.
The roaches are your hammer though. Think of the time you buy and the damage you do with your lings as a gauge. By killing more stuff or preventing more pylons or every time you make him use a forcefield, that hammer is raised higher and the head is given more weight as time goes on.
Ahead there be some spoilers from a game of the Blizzard Cup Finals, do not read if you don't want Parting vs Life spoiled!
+ Show Spoiler +Your object here is to make "The Hammer" part as heavy and as painful as possible. This was showcased in some replays but I don't have many of my own to give. The best execution in a pro match I've seen was in the last Blizzard Cup Finals on Entombed. Life did exactly as I've been testing and it stopped parting cold. He was trying to warp in nothing but sentries at the end because Life did so well with the lings and had so many roaches waiting when Parting finally made it over.
Now granted, I think he got pretty damned lucky with the probe/pylon snipe, but the concept is very sound and still works at top 50 GM level as I've shown before.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extra concerns I will add later into another well-written part include:
-what if they manage to get down pylons?
-actual in-depth descriptions of how to engage on every map in the current pool
-more replays of myself pulling this off at GM league level
-what if they go for 5 gate immo/sentry expand and I went for this variation? Won't I be behind?
I hope you all find my research helpful and I will continue to post my findings here.
|
I have personally been doing pretty okay vs sentry immortal the last few days.
I've been doing 15h 17p with a 3rd at 35 supply, 2 gas at 6 minutes.
I stop droning at 7:50, get ling speed before lair, then +1 attack on ranged.
I make a big round of lings, and then roaches and set up a flank right outside their natural.
I usually have units in position around 9- :10.
I flank with lings on one side and roaches on the other.
If the protoss misses forcefields it's gg because his army is not in a good position, and I can pick off key units.
If he forcefields well then I back off and go again asap. This delays his push over and over.
I guess this isn't the most informative post here, but that's what I've been doing and I've been pretty successful.
I try to get infestation pit started if their push seems to be poorly timed for the free win.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
