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On December 14 2012 00:07 zmansman17 wrote:Why don't we see more base-trading?
Sentries mainly. The banelings will need to break through the front wall, the wall at the top of the ramp, and get through force fields in order to have a chance of winning. If you only destroy the natural, toss's army should get your nat and third and you are left one base vs one base, which tends to favor toss.
Base trading can work if you go muta's. You need to sacrifice some econ for a slightly earlier lair/spire but you essentially spine up your main, sac the natural/third. First muta's need to snipe the warp prism, then fly over and get your lings/blings into the opponents main by focusing down sentrys in their main. Once your lings are in their main and natural you should be good to win.
Protoss wins the base race by keeping lings out of the main. They can double wall the front with gateways (as they will see no real army fighting their army they should know it's coming) and more cannons, warp in sentrys top of the ramp, wall off ramp fully etc etc. They can also win if they still have the warp prism by giving their units high ground vision and destroying spines with immortals.
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Why don't people spine their natural when basetrading? 1 base vs 1 base is bad, but 2 base vs 1 base is impossible to lose 
It's like what blade did in the early days of sentry/immortal; baserace, spine natural, get infestors out eventually. 2 base vs 1 base favours you, and you buy time for infestors.
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As blade and others have shown, I think base tradewith ling/roach was the answer up until summer/fall. However, Protoss players aren't dumb stale people, either. Over time, they have learned that walling the main ramp + a few emergency sentry warp-ins work very well vs base trading Zergs, securing at least 1 base + production. Not that base trade never works, but it is certainly harder to pull off now than, say, 3 months ago.
One recent example where base trade failed:
IPTL Parting vs Jaedong on Daybreak
Jaedong had only 47 drones in order to have earlier units. One can argue that base trade with higher drone count could work better, but then it hits later and Protoss army is closer to your base as well. In this game, Parting didn't use gateways to wall the main ramp for some reason, so his usual gateway wall is even stronger than this example. I'm not an expert, but I feel the era for base trade has already ended due to better Protoss play. Not sure how non-ling/roach base trade works at top level, though.
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On December 14 2012 01:52 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:07 zmansman17 wrote:On December 12 2012 12:09 Mavvie wrote:Well I actually like this idea: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/14pbnp/saviors_guide_on_beating_the_immortal_sentry_all/TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields. Why don't we see more base-trading? Sentries mainly. The banelings will need to break through the front wall, the wall at the top of the ramp, and get through force fields in order to have a chance of winning. If you only destroy the natural, toss's army should get your nat and third and you are left one base vs one base, which tends to favor toss. Base trading can work if you go muta's. You need to sacrifice some econ for a slightly earlier lair/spire but you essentially spine up your main, sac the natural/third. First muta's need to snipe the warp prism, then fly over and get your lings/blings into the opponents main by focusing down sentrys in their main. Once your lings are in their main and natural you should be good to win. Protoss wins the base race by keeping lings out of the main. They can double wall the front with gateways (as they will see no real army fighting their army they should know it's coming) and more cannons, warp in sentrys top of the ramp, wall off ramp fully etc etc. They can also win if they still have the warp prism by giving their units high ground vision and destroying spines with immortals.
why not get overlord pick-up and drop surprise UPS style
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Overlord drop takes 2-3 mins extra to research, and it costs a lot of gas. It's allin from the moment you begin saving/teching, and it takes more time. That said, if you toss opponent hits later (12:00 vs 11:00etc) especially if you have 15~ lings harassing his nat early, you might be able to crush the first attack with baneling rain.
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On December 13 2012 11:04 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 09:23 DarKcS wrote:
The viper in HOTS seems to do the trick. I just wish we had a better answer in WoL...
I think you are in the wrong thread
Oh god I'm so sorry, had a mech tab open and didn't pay attention >_>
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On December 14 2012 02:51 Orek wrote:As blade and others have shown, I think base tradewith ling/roach was the answer up until summer/fall. However, Protoss players aren't dumb stale people, either. Over time, they have learned that walling the main ramp + a few emergency sentry warp-ins work very well vs base trading Zergs, securing at least 1 base + production. Not that base trade never works, but it is certainly harder to pull off now than, say, 3 months ago. One recent example where base trade failed: IPTL Parting vs Jaedong on DaybreakJaedong had only 47 drones in order to have earlier units. One can argue that base trade with higher drone count could work better, but then it hits later and Protoss army is closer to your base as well. In this game, Parting didn't use gateways to wall the main ramp for some reason, so his usual gateway wall is even stronger than this example. I'm not an expert, but I feel the era for base trade has already ended due to better Protoss play. Not sure how non-ling/roach base trade works at top level, though.
And I feel like this is why nydus is so good. It lets you do damage to the protoss base while still letting you bring your army back to defend your spined-up ramp to the main.
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Have you tried defending a ramp against 4 immortals and FFs with 4-5 spines in range at most. The spines die in one burst, if the toss makes no mistakes he won't lose a single immortal before shields go down.
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On December 15 2012 10:23 DarKcS wrote:
Have you tried defending a ramp against 4 immortals and FFs with 4-5 spines in range at most. The spines die in one burst, if the toss makes no mistakes he won't lose a single immortal before shields go down.
Uh, you're wrong? The ramp plus spines plus bringing roaches back from nydus is typically more than enough.
Try watching the replays I posted.
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Just wanted to add that Leenock beat Parting at Blizzard Cup using an 8-roach + ling basetrade approach on Daybreak. Leenock forgoes roach speed and gets a late lair, but holds pretty easily. Parting even goes for the natural but Leenock gets spines in time and mops up Parting's army after killing the cyber and natural.
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On December 11 2012 08:17 Proxee wrote:
Ive had success with delaying with lings and Going for infestation pit right when my lair is done and taking 6 gases. I can delay long enough to get 4 infestors out and roach/ling. Only Diamond on KR tho.
I have a feeling this is crucial. Recently I felt like doing everything right, delaying and stuff, but he was very very sentry heavy and could just forcefield me out for weeks. I delayed, but didn't tech up to infestors, so I eventually lost more and more stuff while he lost absolutely nothing and just added more stuff. Had I gone for infestors in the back, He'd be dead, but pure mass Ling/Roach doesn't cut it against mass sentry / immo.
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To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent.
This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA.
Replays:
vs isuRDarkness
vs LaGBelieve
:note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
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On December 12 2012 08:19 larse wrote:Here are a list of recent VODs in which the Zerg successfully defend the immortal/sentry all-ins: Hyun vs OZ 1 Hyun vs OZ 2 Bischu vs Vibe CreatorPrime vs Life Oz vs TLO (TLO's drop!) Sniper's perfect defense of Parting's 3 immortal/sentry all-in: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/71013/?set=10&lang=
#1, gateway pressure -> exp, not all in.
#2 Immo/sentry all-in is super sloppy, only two immortals and no forcefields
#3 Gateways, not robo.
#4 30 seconds too late, 30 seconds of 3-base roach/ling production is ALOT
#5 No immortal/sentry all in, tries to fake all-in and then makes 1 immortal in total.
Last one, gomtv, can't watch.
Try again.
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On December 18 2012 05:52 sCCrooked wrote:To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent. This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA. Replays:vs isuRDarknessvs LaGBelieve:note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
Damn, that 70 food benchmark is though :D. I would have to see that replay of drg doing it but I find it hard to believe that he got to 70 food at 7:20 with roach warren, lair (or ling speed), evo and 3 gases. I am no drg but even in a 0 pressure game the best I could do is 67 food (and that was on 2 gas without evo). I've been checking drg/leenock/stephano supply at that time in recent games and most of the time they get around 60 so I think its a bit too much to demand non-pro players to reach 70.
On the topic, there is a recent game of stephano holding this all in against mc (millenium house lan) by just producing early roach/ling and being active with them on a map. I do believe its better than just lings, since its way easier to snipe some sentries when having a pack of roaches than with just lings. I'll try to provide some reps if I manage to win some games with it again some decent tosses.
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On December 18 2012 05:52 sCCrooked wrote:To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent. This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA. Replays:vs isuRDarknessvs LaGBelieve:note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol.
This timing was recently used by Leenock as well. He held Parting's immortal sentry all-in with this DRG build.
I've noticed that this approach is really hard to pull off against bad players who push out late with the all-in, as you won't be able to attack into them effectively and if you just wait for them to come out you have to keep rallying in units while you wait rather than tech to lair/upgrades/etc. It's easier to lose to people who are slow and wait for extra warp ins with this style, although I suppose if you do it right you can avoid that being a problem.
I noticed that you overdrone with it. Here's how DRG does it:
3 hatch standard opener
6 minutes take 2 gas
ling speed, roach warren ~7 minutes
drone to 52 and only get 2 gas, no lair, no evo upgrades
make 9-11 roaches (not sure why he varies this number, it's just kinda random it seems), then pure zerglings
hit their natural at 9 minutes with the 9 or so roaches and 30 speedlings with two more injects worth (~16) rallied in
take lair and get +1 carapace (this upgrade depends on your transition), as well as drone to 66 and take all your geysers (for infestor transition)
This build is particularly strong against greedy stargate openers and fast 3 nexus builds in general, while it can be weak on Entombed Valley and easily defended by 4 gate robo into a 3rd there, although it's obviously going to be strong against people who take a 3rd off things like 1 sentry, a zealot/stalker/stalker poke, or a 4gate +1 zealot timing. I used to do this build before stephano style roach/ling maxing became popular and I would just transition to roach/ling/muta after delaying their third or holding their all-in, but this style is even more refined and is strong against the immortal/sentry timing.
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On December 18 2012 22:33 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 05:52 sCCrooked wrote:To speak more for the roach/ling earliness I proposed earlier, I've had some people asking how I got to 67-70 supply before 7:20. To be honest, this replay is probabaly the best I've ever done it. DRG made it to 70 supply in his code A game vs CreatorPRIME by that benchmark in his replay, but I think I made it to 68 by that same time-mark in this game (I'm no DRG lol). I've been mass testing it vs a GM Toss and it has yielded positive results. The only problem I have is that I can't consistently reproduce the result. To be honest, its probably just him having really good micro and decisions I can't make, but the fact I've won with it before was decent. This push timing also works well vs any sort of heavy-sentry all-in like the Korean void ray + gateway unit 7-8 gate all-in with like 8-10 sentries. Although I lost the game, LaGBelieve talked with me afterwards and said the units were definitely in time. I was too dumb to realize he had proxied pylons though and his reinforcements killed me along with good ffs and the fact I'm pretty sure I missed 1 inject somewhere at the end. So basically if you're not as stupid as me, you'll be able to search for that sort of thing and stop the push cold. It works in timings with current 1300+ point GMs on NA. Replays:vs isuRDarknessvs LaGBelieve:note The game above is a pretty bad loss by me. However it should showcase the timing and how it should work in the hands of an actual GM and not a mid-master lol. This timing was recently used by Leenock as well. He held Parting's immortal sentry all-in with this DRG build. I've noticed that this approach is really hard to pull off against bad players who push out late with the all-in, as you won't be able to attack into them effectively and if you just wait for them to come out you have to keep rallying in units while you wait rather than tech to lair/upgrades/etc. It's easier to lose to people who are slow and wait for extra warp ins with this style, although I suppose if you do it right you can avoid that being a problem. I noticed that you overdrone with it. Here's how DRG does it: 3 hatch standard opener 6 minutes take 2 gas ling speed, roach warren ~7 minutes drone to 52 and only get 2 gas, no lair, no evo upgrades make 9-11 roaches (not sure why he varies this number, it's just kinda random it seems), then pure zerglings hit their natural at 9 minutes with the 9 or so roaches and 30 speedlings with two more injects worth (~16) rallied in take lair and get +1 carapace (this upgrade depends on your transition), as well as drone to 66 and take all your geysers (for infestor transition) This build is particularly strong against greedy stargate openers and fast 3 nexus builds in general, while it can be weak on Entombed Valley and easily defended by 4 gate robo into a 3rd there, although it's obviously going to be strong against people who take a 3rd off things like 1 sentry, a zealot/stalker/stalker poke, or a 4gate +1 zealot timing. I used to do this build before stephano style roach/ling maxing became popular and I would just transition to roach/ling/muta after delaying their third or holding their all-in, but this style is even more refined and is strong against the immortal/sentry timing.
Actually, it appears you're referring to a different build than the one I was showcasing. The build is as follows from this VOD.
The Code S Ro16 Auction OSL between DRG and MC. Although its a bit blurry, I believe DRG is between 67 and 70 supply when the 7:20 mark hits. I'm assuming this was probably a little off his optimal build as I've been able to achieve 70 supply with this order and I know I have to be a lot less refined than DRG.
He does not stop at 2 gas or 52 drones. He makes more than 9-11 roaches too and actually gets melee upgrade off an 8:00 evo and although he made spores in the VOD, those minerals would've undoubtedly gone towards a macro hatch, extra queen, and 4th gas around the 8:00 mark against any other opener.
The stuff still comes out in time and you don't have to sac any econ for it. You still get your drones, you just get them faster than the 8:00 benchmark. Soon I'm sure the 7:20 will be figured out too and we'll have to do 7:00 or something equally nutty.
*Edit* Its actually better for the P's side if they go SG opening trying to take a third, not the Z's. The good thing is that whether they push or try to take a third, your forces are there in time for either scenario and you can meet him head-on forcing ffs. The reason for this is that the SG with a void ray can actually see this coming and help the P decide on composition to stop it. The absolute best thing the Z can hope for is they go for something non-air and thus are completely blind. Even with zealot/stalker harass, I can hit the benchmark without much problem and to them, it looks just like a normal 3 hatch build. What they don't realize is that just around 9:00 or so, Z is knocking on the door.
 ouble-Edit* forgot to mention "against any other opener" which kinda made the sentence not make sense lol.
*Triple-Edit* My friends in the top 50 GM and I were trying for several days different ways Z could hold a proper immo/sentry on a tough map and we found 2 really effective ways. I'll try to post more of our replays but its tough sifting through all the times the Z would make a slight mistake and not hit the benchmark or some other rather critical error.
We found 52 was too few, but that 56-58 drones can be safely achieved with the normal tech timings on the opener and still get forces out in time to deal with it.
However, if you open this way which is slightly different than the "standard", we were able to get results even with the fully-droned econ at 60+ drones.
I've been checking drg/leenock/stephano supply at that time in recent games and most of the time they get around 60 so I think its a bit too much to demand non-pro players to reach 70.
Yes but I have a feeling the reason was because they were cutting at the 56-58 drone mark in favor of units. That's what pretty much all pros have been fiddling with. Unfortunately, P have also figured out stopping at that mark gives them a timing where we simply don't have the extra 6-10 drones necessary to keep producing at that rate and still tech so we're looking for alternatives, or a way to transition safely should the map favor P and they can easily secure a third (Entombed or cloud for example).
If you watched my replays, I'm only 2-3 supply short at that benchmark and I'm certainly not pro.
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DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
Here's DRG holding Creator's immortal/sentry all-in with it: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70994/?set=4
With this particular game his 3 hatch before pool opener allows him to have 58 drones and also money for a few extra units. Sometimes he goes for +1 range and other times (vs stargate, it seems) he cancels it and goes for +1 melee intending to transition.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
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On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote:DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well. Here's DRG holding Creator's immortal/sentry all-in with it: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70994/?set=4I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol.
Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life 
Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this >
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On December 19 2012 00:30 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote:DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well. Here's DRG holding Creator's immortal/sentry all-in with it: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70994/?set=4I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...) I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol. Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this >
DRG also did this every game against creator in their second meeting (ro16?) and DRGseemed to be miles behind every game, because creator stayed in his base. One game also showed how your lair is too late to react to DTs, you need to scout them out or guess, though DRG got lucky and won that game because creator made some poor choices under pressure in a weird counterattack situation. It looked like DRG was really getting outclassed, but I'm pretty sure that's only because he was playing every game from a disadvantage because he did not want to lose to the immortal all in.
and I don't have the vods, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least partially responsible for his unfortunate series against Rain in the OSL.
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On December 19 2012 00:34 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 00:30 sCCrooked wrote:On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote:DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well. Here's DRG holding Creator's immortal/sentry all-in with it: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70994/?set=4I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...) I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol. Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this > DRG also did this every game against creator in their second meeting (ro16?) and drg was miles behind every game. only winning one game due to some silly mistakes in a weird counterattack situation (and this game also showed how your lair is too late to react to DTs, you need to scout them out or guess). it looked like DRG was really getting outclassed, but that's only because he was playing every game from a disadvantage because he did not want to lose to the immortal all in. and I don't have the vods, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least partially responsible for his unfortunate series against Rain in the OSL.
Although this is true, its also possible to switch the lair and speed timings. Speed will not be done in order for you to engage at his front though. You'll have to choose an engagement somewhere in the middle of the map instead.
However if you do this lair then speed stuff, its much closer to standard timings and thus you must stop around 56-58 drones to have forces in time.
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EPT
