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On December 12 2012 10:11 Zelniq wrote:as interesting as all of these are im sure, none of them are the immortal/sentry build we're talking about. with two exceptions i guess, the 2nd video (hyun vs oz 2)..except oz seemingly has only 2immortals there with sentries moving down his ramp..and he has them in some weird spread out line thats super easy to surround with lings and game ends immediately cus of that mistake. that's still interesting tho but it just sounds like an adjustment protosses need to start looking out for. tlo's build is neat but his opponent forgot warpgate..for so long that he didn't notice until warpgate would normally be finished and he tried to morph them to warpgates. so he had no warpgates when tlo dropped lol. oh and i dont have a gom sub so i cant see that sniper vs parting's 3 immortal sentry..im really curious as to the details as to how exactly parting lost..but it sounds like it could have been parting's mistake or not being prepared for early lings to attack as he moved out of his base with his only sentry/immortal army? maybe his units were kinda spread out in the open and then got surrounded?
Here's what Sniper did:
Daybreak, Hatch 1st, 3 min 3rd. Droned up to 63, got a 7 min Roach Warren, 8 min macro Hatch, got +1 Carapace, didn't build any units until 8 minutes.
Tried to delay Parting, but wasn't able to kill anything or bait a lot of force fields. At 10:00 Parting was already at the choke at his 3rd. Flanked from behind, while attacking from the front. Parting crucially missed his 1st set of force fields and let some Zerglings and Roaches in, which took out a few Sentries.
Sniper also took out the reinforcement pylons, and Parting missed another set of forcefields as he was trying to prevent him from doing that and lost more Sentries. Once the Sentries were gone, Sniper eventually overwhelmed him.
Edit: At 10 minutes Sniper has: 21 Roaches, 28 Speedlings, +1 Carapace, 4 Queens, 63 Drones and a Spore Crawler in front of his 3rd, which forced Parting to pull the WP back a little until it was killed.
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On December 12 2012 12:09 Mavvie wrote:Well I actually like this idea: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/14pbnp/saviors_guide_on_beating_the_immortal_sentry_all/TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
I was considering posting it on TL XD its really effective, and as I mentioned in the guide, undefeated as long as my macro as good ^.^
Figured I'd get a bit of hate considering my IGN is savior tho XD, having said that already getting hate in r/starcraft so I may aswell post it so more peopl see
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^ well just because you haven't lost with it doesn't mean it's viable at higher levels. Like I've never lost to the all in with roach/ling, but pros never do it so obviously something makes it unviable. I'm not that sure about mutas. I don't think you can afford 50 lings + >10 banes at 9:00, a 10+ spine wall at 9:00, and mutas while making lings at home. I do like the idea of a bane bust counter. How about 30 lings and 6 banes? Does the same, but a much smaller investment. You may even be able to save the third! 3 base vs 1 = GG.
I think it's totally worth experimenting with, I like banelings 
What do you mean getting hate because your name is saviour? :O
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On December 12 2012 13:06 Mavvie wrote:^ well just because you haven't lost with it doesn't mean it's viable at higher levels. Like I've never lost to the all in with roach/ling, but pros never do it so obviously something makes it unviable. I'm not that sure about mutas. I don't think you can afford 50 lings + >10 banes at 9:00, a 10+ spine wall at 9:00, and mutas while making lings at home. I do like the idea of a bane bust counter. How about 30 lings and 6 banes? Does the same, but a much smaller investment. You may even be able to save the third! 3 base vs 1 = GG. I think it's totally worth experimenting with, I like banelings What do you mean getting hate because your name is saviour? :O
that bw guy sAviOr, my name comes from the song by rise against tho, it's them being a bit pedantic really.
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I still think that the idea of Nydus (after research, I see that TLO has done this as well) is itself underused. It allows you to pressure and basetrade while still defending your main base. It's been the most consistent defense for me (I'm currently 1K masters).
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Strangely, I advocated for a similar eco ling-bane counter bust a month ago :
+ Show Spoiler +On November 15 2012 21:33 houstil wrote:
I am no longer active on EU the server but a few weeks ago, when playing for my team I designed a macro oriented counter to the imo-sentry all-in.
We know that without tech (mutas, hydras or infester) it's very hard to fight the toss army head-on. But getting the tech quickly enough to defend this very early push require a big cut on economy (late third), which can be easily scouted and exploited by the Toss.
I used to do a roach/ling/hydra defense on 3 bases using standard stephano gas and tech timing but I only defended barely and I was in a bad position if the Toss just took a safe third defended by sentry/imo once he forced enough hydras and followed by a pre-hive colossus push. As soon as colossus hit the battleground, supply and resource tied in hydras become a huge liability.
Counter attacking seem to be the solution because the Toss usually just wall off and doesn't keep any defending army to make the strongest push possible. But with usual timings only a small roach/ling army can be at the Toss nat when the WonWonWon train as left the station. To get a really theatening roach/ling army at Toss door around 9min, you have to delay either eco (less saturation) or tech (later roach speed and infestors).
Considering all this I got my idea of a reactive eco ling-baneling counter bust. This a reactive build and it should be able to defend this all-in but also put the zerg player in a good position for a standard macro game.
The first phase of the build focus on maximizing the mineral input and drone production during the first 7min of the game. We want to get a 3 bases fully mineral saturated (48 drones) ASAP. Delaying gas until 6:30 and not building any creep tumor should allow you to reach full min saturation around 7:10 and stop
producing drone at 7:30. 7:30 is the turning point when you should have identified the build 100%, but against quick gateway pressure, you have to adapt earlier (if no gas at nat and no third building at 6:45, emergency roach warren
and 2 spine at the third plus a few zerglings should keep you safe).
When the standard 7min overlord sac has seen many sentry and a robo, the build is clearly identified. So the reaction is as follow : ling speed with the first 100 gas from 3 gas at 6:30 (ling speed will be ready around 9:10), and then
baneling nest (begin ~7:30, finish ~8:30) and then lair. Regarding mineral allocation, when you reach 57 drones (3*16+3*3) you should build a macro hatch, a fourth extractor, 5 more drones and a fourth queen. Any mineral left go to zerglings (zerglings production begins around 7:30 to get 2 injects rounds-60lings at the Toss door at 9min).
We can't defend the third, but with a quick mineral saturation it will pay for itself. If the all-in is certain, you should begin spining up the nat at 8:30. As you plan to sac the third, just morph 8 drones from the third to the nat. The 8
drones left will be transfered just before his army hit your third to make 4 additionnals spines (put the other on min). With the flood of 3 injected hatch building lings and 12 spines, you should have no problem defending your nat.
You also have to be careful of your building placement : the macro hatch is safer in the the main, and don't build any extractor in the third before taking the first 4.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00, when the WonWonWon train is cruising in the
midle of the map (according to Remarks guide). 10 banes is enough to destroy any wall (forge is 10 IIRC) so even if he left a single sentry at home you should make short work of the nat with zerglings amazing dps output, probes will fall to any baneling left.
Now your zerglings could get scouted and no doubt that he has enough sentry to defend if he decide not to push. In this situation we have a fall-back plan. At 9:10, your lair should finish and you should have just enough gas to build a
spire. The threat of the counter attack and the army dance should buy enough time to have mutas before he can safely attack you or get his third. And from there the game is simple. You just have to threaten a ling/bane/muta counter attack while growing your econ advantage and teching. Given that you have 10+ spines already, any base race scenario is an autowin.
So here is the build order :
Standard 3 hatch opening, don't build a third queen until the third hatch is built because you will need the extra min to spend it on the extra larvae given by not building a creep tumor, spend queen energy only on injects.
6:30 3 gas
7:00 send ov to scout and assert the WonWonWon build
7:20 ling speed, add an extractor
7:30 baneling nest, first round of lings stop drone production at 60 drones, add macro hatch, 4th queen
7:50 build lair in your main
8:00 2nd round of lings
8:30 build as many banes as you can in a hidden location don't be afraid to cancel if he chase your army, time is on your side. Spine up your nat, continue ling production if he is agressive.
9:00 destroy his naked nat if he pushed, ling speed will finish shortly
9:10 build a spire if he stayed defensive
Pros :
- fully reactive build, doesn't sacrifice eco, slighly later tech but the first round of zerglings can delay Toss third for a long time to compensate.
- no need to invest heavily in the defense before 8min (the 2nd round of lings). And if he doesn't look agressive, you don't have to morph banes.
- a near bo win if he push and doesn't stop the counter attack, wich will often be the case on ladder given the surprise effect
- no big tell until zergling production for the protoss to identify the BO
- bo still very strong against stargate play (good eco, ling and banes to deny the third)
Cons :
- weaker than standard build to +1 gateway pressure or just zealot/stalker harass
(you have to be very active with the initial 4 lings to scout for that and be prepared in time)
- if you fail to scout you can be caught with your pants down at a wrong timing (DT pressure, gateway all-in, zeal/archon all-in ...)
TLDR:
Standard 3base late gas, 2 round of lings with speed and bane nest to treaten a timed ling/bane counter attack at 9 min, spine up the nat and sac the third if needed, buy some time for spire tech to punish heavy sentry and late third.
I don't have any valuable replay given that I don't play much ATM. But I think that given the current situation, any Zerg strugeling with the WonWonWon build should give this a try.
But sadly, I wasn't able to provide any replay and my post never gained much interest despite how much work I put into it.
Hopefully there is now more people interested in a new approach and the build will be more experimented.
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Sorry, I totally missed that! I will add this to the OP soon, but I'd appreciate more replays.
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^ The main reason this never gained any momentum is simple. The bust doesn't work unless you're in low leagues. Gate walls and a few sentry warp-ins at home will completely stop you from being able to do anything. ParTinG really has this build refined for all possible avenues of zerg reactions.
As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00
Its this part that would need to change if you really wanted to try busting them, but you might as well go for Zenio's deceptive 3 hatch ling/bane bust build if you're going to do that.
Your post says the attack can be ready at 9:00. This is already too late. WG is done, 9 sentries, 1 zealot/stalker and 3 immortals move out even before 8:50 so literally your banes won't even be arriving before his masses of ffs are already there.
Basically what you're trying to do is the roach/ling concept but with bane/ling. People were experimenting with banes but without drop its really not effective past very low masters.
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On December 13 2012 00:23 sCCrooked wrote:^ The main reason this never gained any momentum is simple. The bust doesn't work unless you're in low leagues. Gate walls and a few sentry warp-ins at home will completely stop you from being able to do anything. ParTinG really has this build refined for all possible avenues of zerg reactions. Show nested quote +As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00 Its this part that would need to change if you really wanted to try busting them, but you might as well go for Zenio's deceptive 3 hatch ling/bane bust build if you're going to do that. Your post says the attack can be ready at 9:00. This is already too late. WG is done, 9 sentries, 1 zealot/stalker and 3 immortals move out even before 8:50 so literally your banes won't even be arriving before his masses of ffs are already there. Basically what you're trying to do is the roach/ling concept but with bane/ling. People were experimenting with banes but without drop its really not effective past very low masters.
How would he have sentries out in time to stop this if you bane bust him post-moveout?
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On December 13 2012 02:02 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 00:23 sCCrooked wrote:^ The main reason this never gained any momentum is simple. The bust doesn't work unless you're in low leagues. Gate walls and a few sentry warp-ins at home will completely stop you from being able to do anything. ParTinG really has this build refined for all possible avenues of zerg reactions. As soons as the baneling nest finish (8:30), you should have around 300 gas to build 12banes in a hidden position close to the Toss nat. This means that your counter attack will hit at 9:00 Its this part that would need to change if you really wanted to try busting them, but you might as well go for Zenio's deceptive 3 hatch ling/bane bust build if you're going to do that. Your post says the attack can be ready at 9:00. This is already too late. WG is done, 9 sentries, 1 zealot/stalker and 3 immortals move out even before 8:50 so literally your banes won't even be arriving before his masses of ffs are already there. Basically what you're trying to do is the roach/ling concept but with bane/ling. People were experimenting with banes but without drop its really not effective past very low masters. How would he have sentries out in time to stop this if you bane bust him post-moveout?
Even if you wait for him to move out, you'll be facing 2 walls. 1 at the natural and 1 at the ramp between the nat and main.
When you move out with immo/sentry its not like you stop mining gas or something so you'll eventually have the ability to warp in 1-2 sentries at home to hold that ramp should the bane/ling break the nat. I'll try to find some VODs of where ParTinG stops strong counter-attacks. Holding a ramp just isn't that hard. He stops roach/ling attacks which contain far more units because these players were just trying to base-trade.
I'm also a mid-masters P so I'll tell you from the P perspective that when you move out with the 3 immortals and 9+ sentries, your WG is done and you're supposed to warp in your first round about the same time the warp prism is pretty far along. That being said, that warp in is usually at your main base and you have them meet the other forces somewhere on their way across the map. So anything before 10:00 will almost assuredly face 7 units warping in back home. You'd have to be lucky he didn't see your lings or banes and played it really greedy. Its very common for a P to warp in 1 sentry to ff the ramp to give enough time to finish warping in other sentries to hold while you kill off Zerg's bases. You can't just assume that the P isn't going to warp-in units on time when you're considering a strategy like this.
Once you're in this scenario the only way for you to even stay alive is just to spine up your main and hope he can't break it, but it doesn't matter because P will overwhelm you very shortly with far superior tech and economy.
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Crooked, thanks for the reply.
I'm a little confused about how to use lings to delay the push. If I'm able to mob him with 30-40 lings right as he moves out and he only has immortal/sentry, then it seems that I can bait some FF's, which is good.
However, after the first round of warpins (usually zealots), I'm not sure what to do. Usually I will engage, they will throw down no FF's, and I'll just lose all my lings and have to rely on my reinforcements back home to help out, having killed maybe 1 sentry. This seems like a really bad trade for me, but I'm not sure what to do with the lings. What is to prevent him in this situation from just moving across the map after the first warpin? Should I just add more lings to force FF's? I think the problem here is that +1 carapace is not done yet, and the +1 zeals tear the lings to shreds.
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On December 13 2012 03:35 Defenestrator wrote:
Crooked, thanks for the reply.
I'm a little confused about how to use lings to delay the push. If I'm able to mob him with 30-40 lings right as he moves out and he only has immortal/sentry, then it seems that I can bait some FF's, which is good.
However, after the first round of warpins (usually zealots), I'm not sure what to do. Usually I will engage, they will throw down no FF's, and I'll just lose all my lings and have to rely on my reinforcements back home to help out, having killed maybe 1 sentry. This seems like a really bad trade for me, but I'm not sure what to do with the lings. What is to prevent him in this situation from just moving across the map after the first warpin? Should I just add more lings to force FF's? I think the problem here is that +1 carapace is not done yet, and the +1 zeals tear the lings to shreds.
Not a problem. I'm still sifting through masses of youtube VODs trying to find the game I'm remembering xD
The truth is so far, there's a bunch of different ways to handle this, but it still requires SO MUCH more on our part than the P. Playing from both perspectives quite often, that's how I see this matchup (when both sides go for the builds we're discussing here).
What I've been doing lately is stopping at around 54-56 drones when my double overlord poke at 6:50 sees no extra gates, but a robo and spinning forge. I make a bunch of speedlings for the first round of larva that pops and the second set of larva I spend into roaches. Around that time, your lair should be either finished or finishing even if you delayed the tech a bit.
Make a creep highway so your roaches are more mobile and make your way to the middle of the map to engage again. You should also seperate a few roaches (5-6 will do) to go start breaking down his natural wall. If you're lucky, he'll be forced to warp units in back there to defend (1 cannon and pylons won't stop 6 roaches). Now you've split his reinforcements and have opened a timing window. Before he gets to your base, you should engage him 3 times. 1 time should be just as he moves out, 1 time should be somewhere in the middle but still "his" side of the map and the other should be somewhere in the middle but closer to your bases. If you engage 3 times properly with surrounds, you'll force him to use every FF he has.
This can discourage a lot of Ps and if they feel they won't be able to make it across with enough energy, I've even seen some fall back and just take a third which then puts us behind having stopped at 56 drones instead of the usual 64. Some P are really headstrong and just want to go kill you though. That's why the roach seperation really helps. If you see a stronger wall, of course you should allocate more forces. Maybe 8-10 if you see him pylon wall and add 1-2 cannons or something drastically defensive.
Now, this does 2 things. It forces the P to attack because now its all or nothing. You've effectively siphoned off a small force that's capable of bringing down the wall and even his natural if he doesn't warp units in back there. However if he does that, his main force receives no reinforcements while yours is being reinforced by 4 hatcheries being injected with larva.
However I've found this to be incredibly hard to pull off. A few previously-GM friends and myself have been trying to mass games to figure out an effective counter. So far there's lots of theories, but not anything with a really consistent result at the pro level. It seems we're still doomed to lose to this more than we win vs it :/
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The viper in HOTS seems to do the trick. I just wish we had a better answer in WoL...
All my mech losses end up the same. I usually open ling muta with a safety roach warren, take out the Terrans 3rd and stop him from mining till the point he's mined out and secured the 3rd base with tanks + AA and I stop attacking. He splits the map and takes his 4th, he's still only on 2 bases but he usually has mass orbitals. Then I go for broods and get out 12-15 usually before the first big push. (Masters US)
Because Broods can't kite Thors at range and Thors can see high ground so sitting on hills make no difference, and Broods naturally clump up, my first 2 broods usually die to clumped Thors in 2 volleys. Once I lose my queens in this battle, I have no larvae production, but I'm broke due to the cost of Broods anyway.
Upgrades are a problem. Double spire is costly when you're rushing to hive with 0 gas remaining after spending some on roach speed, spire etc. And as I'm getting my Greater Spire, I can't upgrade... Mech players get double armories and start early, making out their numbers with easy to produce hellions that make good fodder all game long, as every Roach that's attacking a hellion during a fight nullifies the roach, while able to harass your expansions, countering mechs inabiliy.
Forcing me to preemptively make 3 spines at every base to stop hellions from sitting in a safe spot behind my mineral line does just as much economic damage (300 mins + 3 drones).
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On December 13 2012 09:23 DarKcS wrote:
The viper in HOTS seems to do the trick. I just wish we had a better answer in WoL...
All my mech losses end up the same. I usually open ling muta with a safety roach warren, take out the Terrans 3rd and stop him from mining till the point he's mined out and secured the 3rd base with tanks + AA and I stop attacking. He splits the map and takes his 4th, he's still only on 2 bases but he usually has mass orbitals. Then I go for broods and get out 12-15 usually before the first big push. (Masters US)
Because Broods can't kite Thors at range and Thors can see high ground so sitting on hills make no difference, and Broods naturally clump up, my first 2 broods usually die to clumped Thors in 2 volleys. Once I lose my queens in this battle, I have no larvae production, but I'm broke due to the cost of Broods anyway.
Upgrades are a problem. Double spire is costly when you're rushing to hive with 0 gas remaining after spending some on roach speed, spire etc. And as I'm getting my Greater Spire, I can't upgrade... Mech players get double armories and start early, making out their numbers with easy to produce hellions that make good fodder all game long, as every Roach that's attacking a hellion during a fight nullifies the roach, while able to harass your expansions, countering mechs inabiliy.
Forcing me to preemptively make 3 spines at every base to stop hellions from sitting in a safe spot behind my mineral line does just as much economic damage (300 mins + 3 drones).
I think you are in the wrong thread
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Recently I had a little bit of an epiphany regarding parting's version of this all in. The only games where I've seen someone beat this with roach ling was sniper vs parting and life vs creator. I'm both these games sniper and life opened hatch first with a pre 4 min third. So my epiphany was that if Protoss hasn't probe scouted you by 2:00 (when you'd start your 15 pool), go hatch first instead. Then do the build that life did vs creator in the vod from the previous page. You can base trade or fight straight up, whichever you prefer.
If protoss probe scouts and then goes sentry immortal it is delayed by 10+ seconds which makes the push hit later than the 8:50 to 9:00 that is so scary. If he does probe scout holding it is hard but if you macro well it's definitely not impossible. However if he does go blind nexus first that's when it becomes very difficult to hold. However if you go for this hatch first play you speed up your build by 10+ seconds, putting you on an equal footing with the Protoss player. I think this will be the best way to hold the build combined with perhaps the 7:20 min macro hatchery.
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Is it ok to do a 3 hatch opening, double gas, lair, ling speed and then spire against this? Will the mutas come out in time before the toss army reaches my base?
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On December 13 2012 13:03 aLtNXZ wrote:
Recently I had a little bit of an epiphany regarding parting's version of this all in. The only games where I've seen someone beat this with roach ling was sniper vs parting and life vs creator. I'm both these games sniper and life opened hatch first with a pre 4 min third. So my epiphany was that if Protoss hasn't probe scouted you by 2:00 (when you'd start your 15 pool), go hatch first instead. Then do the build that life did vs creator in the vod from the previous page. You can base trade or fight straight up, whichever you prefer.
If protoss probe scouts and then goes sentry immortal it is delayed by 10+ seconds which makes the push hit later than the 8:50 to 9:00 that is so scary. If he does probe scout holding it is hard but if you macro well it's definitely not impossible. However if he does go blind nexus first that's when it becomes very difficult to hold. However if you go for this hatch first play you speed up your build by 10+ seconds, putting you on an equal footing with the Protoss player. I think this will be the best way to hold the build combined with perhaps the 7:20 min macro hatchery.
Interesting insight =) Seems to make sense; it can be metagame'd, but I don't see anyone doing this nowadays.
Out of curiosity, why does no one try to get spine/roach/ling against this push? Is it because immos are so strong vs spines, or just because you're not sure which angle they will come from?
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On December 12 2012 12:09 Mavvie wrote:Well I actually like this idea: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/14pbnp/saviors_guide_on_beating_the_immortal_sentry_all/TL;DR basetrade with baneling bust, spines at home, focus cyber core then get mutas. It's completely reactionary and sounds fairly viable. Forces a 2 base vs 1 base where you have mutas so that's probably good for Zerg. Not quite sure about the timings but it seems promising! Unlike other baneling variations it doesn't rely on your opponent missing forcefields.
Why don't we see more base-trading?
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EPT
