On December 19 2012 00:26 oOOoOphidian wrote: DRG did the build as I described against Creator on Antiga in GSL, against MC twice in OSL (easily killing him when he opened phoenix), and other players have used it the same way as well. I suppose the one you are copying is slightly different, and in fact I've seen a few other variations as well.
I've considered writing a guide on the build, as commentators never point it out and it was only mimicked a little bit by some foreigners (goswser used it against Rain, for example). Now that I have the time maybe I will do so. Feel free to link any other vods you know of, especially given that the OSL vods are bogus (require a new subscription...)
I'll try to find more. I really wish they commentators would stop mistaking this build for just normal play. There's extremely specific reasons we're making these adjustments to the build we're scouting lol.
Also keep it up phidian! I remember watching your OSL casts near the end of BW's life
Zerg hwaiting! We'll crack this >
DRG also did this every game against creator in their second meeting (ro16?) and DRGseemed to be miles behind every game, because creator stayed in his base. One game also showed how your lair is too late to react to DTs, you need to scout them out or guess, though DRG got lucky and won that game because creator made some poor choices under pressure in a weird counterattack situation. It looked like DRG was really getting outclassed, but I'm pretty sure that's only because he was playing every game from a disadvantage because he did not want to lose to the immortal all in.
and I don't have the vods, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least partially responsible for his unfortunate series against Rain in the OSL.
Yeah I noticed he was using this build in that series against Creator twice and it revealed how to play it in many situations. I have experienced that it's actually very solid against FFE DT builds. He didn't use the build at all against Rain in OSL finals, which I thought was a very unfortunate choice given that Rain was playing fairly greedy 3 base builds every game into a huge timing attack.
This is 3hatch before pool... I though we were talking about the DRG build with 70 supply at 7:27?
If you watch DRG's games, he does go 3 hatch before pool whenever the protoss doesn't scout. It's a reaction to the greedy nexus first/in base forge/no scout play that Parting does a lot to boost up his timings. If your opponent is less greedy you can play less greedy, however.
Fenner did a video on standard zvp openings in which he hits 70 supply at 7:10. This obviously won't happen every game but if you can reach 70 supply in the 7:20 range you are in an excellent position moving into the midgame, regardless of his strategy. For those curious about hitting that 70 supply here is the video:
To be honest if you hit this supply mark you will beat sentry immortal all ins up to at GM level, once their force fields start getting very good it becomes harder but with good engagements you will be able to win.
On December 20 2012 11:42 aLtNXZ wrote: Fenner did a video on standard zvp openings in which he hits 70 supply at 7:10. This obviously won't happen every game but if you can reach 70 supply in the 7:20 range you are in an excellent position moving into the midgame, regardless of his strategy. For those curious about hitting that 70 supply here is the video:
To be honest if you hit this supply mark you will beat sentry immortal all ins up to at GM level, once their force fields start getting very good it becomes harder but with good engagements you will be able to win.
There are some conditions attached with being able to get 70 supply by 7:10-7:20, something I've done some testing on myself. My opener is slightly different from fenner's but it's essentially equivalent. Assuming you don't get harassed at all you can reach almost 80 supply by 8min, which is pretty amazing.
Conditions:
- Can't get natural hatch blocked - Can't get pressured by protoss at all. If they send out a zealot stalker to harass the third there's no way you'll hit 70 supply by then unless you think you can stop that with 4 lings and a queen lol - Must be able to rule out potential early allin as rw comes down after the 7:20 mark - I skip the creep tumour that connects the natural to the third in favour of another inject
So yeah, realistically speaking, you should expect around 65 supply with pylon block, 60 with zealot stalker harass. Also I feel like you're on slightly too many drones at that 7:20 mark, around 58 after putting down rw evo macro, so I'd make another queen instead of those 3 extra drones to try and hold immo/sentry with mass roach/ling.
Maybe... open up standard, 3 hatch, first gas the moment you drop your third hatch, 2nd gas at 6:00, 3rd gas at 6:30. Now, Lair before ling speed, RW/evo at 7:00 (this is all assuming you don't scout a gateway all in based on their gas count, if you do, you can get RW a bit earlier). Upgrade +1 attack, not range (you can cancel this for 4 more roaches if you scout gateway all in), macro hatch. Immediately start Drop tech upon Lair completion, we don't need Roach Speed, Bane Nest when Drop is 50% done, OV speed when Drop is 70% done, morph as many banelings as possible and go ling bain rain. Sac 3rd if necessary, but let the drones mine as long as possible. You can build roaches as buffer if necessary, but not to many, we need gas.
Going to test against CPU now to see how it times out with Parting's push, I want to see how far along drop is when he initially hits at around 9:10 or so...
EDIT: With Lair at 6:05, my Drop wasn't done until 9:50 ish. Way too late. So, 5 minute Lair? Lol.
EDIT2: I'm considering going for 2 base play --> 3rd or all in, depending on what I scout. 14/14, with a 5 min Lair, then alter my play based on scouting. Use speedlings to deny any fast third, and alter my Lair tech depending on what I scout. If I scout sentry all in or sentry --> third, I can go for ling bane rain all in off 2 bases. If I scout SG, I can go for ling hydra push (on smaller maps) or ling hydra with a forward nydus. I can also go for 2 extra queens (for a total of 4) and get infestor tech, then a third (against SG openers) but that seems a bit too... conservative.
2 base muta --> 3rd is also an option, against 4 gate sentry --> 3rd, or against VR openers.
Err against blink all ins, with 5 min Lair I should have Infestor tech out before the stalkers reach that critical mass...
If I scout 2 base colossus, I can immediately take a third knowing they won't push without that 3rd Colossus, and go for roach/ling/infestor or roach/ling/corruptor.
Idk, it all seems sooooo scouting dependant and it's pretty easy to deny scouting or trick the Zerg with just relying on gas reads.
Keep in mind, any two base play probably won't see an immortal/sentry all in. Everything that I have read, immortal/sentry is used against 3 hatch no gas. If they don't see the third hatch, if they see two base play, they will either go 2 base collosus or immortal/sentry expand.
So unless the mindset of the reaction to not seeing a third has changed, saying 'Don't go 3 hatch no gas' to beat immortal sentry, is similar to saying 'Don't go 3 hatch before pool to beat 2 rax'.
On December 20 2012 11:42 aLtNXZ wrote: Fenner did a video on standard zvp openings in which he hits 70 supply at 7:10. This obviously won't happen every game but if you can reach 70 supply in the 7:20 range you are in an excellent position moving into the midgame, regardless of his strategy. For those curious about hitting that 70 supply here is the video:
To be honest if you hit this supply mark you will beat sentry immortal all ins up to at GM level, once their force fields start getting very good it becomes harder but with good engagements you will be able to win.
There are some conditions attached with being able to get 70 supply by 7:10-7:20, something I've done some testing on myself. My opener is slightly different from fenner's but it's essentially equivalent. Assuming you don't get harassed at all you can reach almost 80 supply by 8min, which is pretty amazing.
Conditions:
- Can't get natural hatch blocked - Can't get pressured by protoss at all. If they send out a zealot stalker to harass the third there's no way you'll hit 70 supply by then unless you think you can stop that with 4 lings and a queen lol - Must be able to rule out potential early allin as rw comes down after the 7:20 mark - I skip the creep tumour that connects the natural to the third in favour of another inject
So yeah, realistically speaking, you should expect around 65 supply with pylon block, 60 with zealot stalker harass. Also I feel like you're on slightly too many drones at that 7:20 mark, around 58 after putting down rw evo macro, so I'd make another queen instead of those 3 extra drones to try and hold immo/sentry with mass roach/ling.
Yes its amazing, but its also incredibly greedy. I don't know many who don't use at least a stalker to harass at high level.
If you're really good though, even against zealot/stalker poke and a pylon block, you can achieve 67-70 supply by 7:30. I've also tried variations where there were not 2 gasses at the natural and thus I expected a pressure from 4 gates and I threw down the warren and evo at 6:35 and 7:00 respectively which still allowed me to get 70 by 7:30.
There's ways to get this mark even against GMs, but I've only just recently started being able to do it with in excess of 300 games played vs this and all vs upper 100 GMs.
The Parting games against Sniper today were totally ridiculous. If a build isn't countered in 6 months although you know it's coming... should tell you something about the state of the game.
In any case, the main flaw of Sniper is, he didn't tech, which makes poking and delayed Sentry/Immo allins even more powerful, because he will eventually so much stuff (because he isn't losing anything due to FFs), not even a 200/200 roach/ling will hold with spines. If you don't tech to infestors, you're dead. Sniper still was on Ling/Roach at 15 minutes because of Parting just sitting around pretending to attack, mostly, which triggered "get more stuff to hold" instead of "tech to infestors".
On December 20 2012 23:53 Mahtasooma wrote: The Parting games against Sniper today were totally ridiculous. If a build isn't countered in 6 months although you know it's coming... should tell you something about the state of the game.
In any case, the main flaw of Sniper is, he didn't tech, which makes poking and delayed Sentry/Immo allins even more powerful, because he will eventually so much stuff (because he isn't losing anything due to FFs), not even a 200/200 roach/ling will hold with spines. If you don't tech to infestors, you're dead. Sniper still was on Ling/Roach at 15 minutes because of Parting just sitting around pretending to attack, mostly, which triggered "get more stuff to hold" instead of "tech to infestors".
Sadly teching to infestors does nothing. The only way you can possibly get enough gas to get any decent number out is to throw down your pit as soon as lair is done and the upgrade as soon as the pit is done. 4 gas is simply not enough income to afford enough infestors.
WIth the reduced power in the infestors too, sentries can actually set up ffs and as long as they're spread out, the immortal/stalker fire will outrange your infestors and make you unable to hit sentries with fungal.
Not to mention the earliest you could possibly have any fungals is well into the 11 minute-12 minute range which is when you're not just under attack, but most likely already dead or at least down a base and your entire army + 20 something drones and a queen or so.
I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
On December 21 2012 00:11 eSuBuildings wrote: I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
Would you care to elaborate? So far you gave virtually no information, tech that doesn't help you vs this push at all and no mention of your timings for stopping his ball from growing too large.
On December 21 2012 00:11 eSuBuildings wrote: I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
Would you care to elaborate? So far you gave virtually no information, tech that doesn't help you vs this push at all and no mention of your timings for stopping his ball from growing too large.
From the tech, it is pretty easy to see what he intends to do. Get brurow roaches, (3 gas at 6:20, first lair, speed, ranged attack, tunnling/burrow gets tunnling claws at ~10 - 10:20. Sentry/immortal usually gets a warp prism and then the observer. There is a window where you burrow into the mass, snipe sentries? (immortals?) and then clean up with speedlings.
Moves out at, let's say 9:15. Warp prism is done at 9:30, An instant observer, without chrono, would finish right around 10 and then travel time. You may have a very small window where you can burrow in and snipe sentries, so that your speedlings/roaches can clean up immortal stalker/zealot fairly easily. I would say burrow move would finish approximately when the lings got the surround in that VOD. (there is no observer there, probably because he saw the nydus and thought burrow wasn't going to show up).
Burrow actually finishes 10 seconds before claws. if you know the path they are taking, you can pre-emptively burrow and unburrow under them.
So, from SC2planner, it seems using burrow/burrow move roaches against sentry immortal all in may work. It can be pulled off, but if it is pulled off does it work is another question. Another advantage, is that you don't instantly lose if they get to your natural and FF the ramp.
Of all lair tech's, claws comes out 20 seconds before infestors, and 23 seconds before muta's.
On December 21 2012 00:11 eSuBuildings wrote: I have another method to holding this, it's VERY specific though and only works best against the soul train build in which he goes for the 36 suppl robo.
Standard 3 base opener taking 3 gas at 6:20. First 100 to lair Second 100 to speed Third 100 to attack.
The moment your lair finishes, get burrow and tunneling claws. Mass lings and then win.
Would you care to elaborate? So far you gave virtually no information, tech that doesn't help you vs this push at all and no mention of your timings for stopping his ball from growing too large.
From the tech, it is pretty easy to see what he intends to do. Get brurow roaches, (3 gas at 6:20, first lair, speed, ranged attack, tunnling/burrow gets tunnling claws at ~10 - 10:20. Sentry/immortal usually gets a warp prism and then the observer. There is a window where you burrow into the mass, snipe sentries? (immortals?) and then clean up with speedlings.
Moves out at, let's say 9:15. Warp prism is done at 9:30, An instant observer, without chrono, would finish right around 10 and then travel time. You may have a very small window where you can burrow in and snipe sentries, so that your speedlings/roaches can clean up immortal stalker/zealot fairly easily. I would say burrow move would finish approximately when the lings got the surround in that VOD. (there is no observer there, probably because he saw the nydus and thought burrow wasn't going to show up).
Burrow actually finishes 10 seconds before claws. if you know the path they are taking, you can pre-emptively burrow and unburrow under them.
So, from SC2planner, it seems using burrow/burrow move roaches against sentry immortal all in may work. It can be pulled off, but if it is pulled off does it work is another question. Another advantage, is that you don't instantly lose if they get to your natural and FF the ramp.
Of all lair tech's, claws comes out 20 seconds before infestors, and 23 seconds before muta's.
I see my point didn't make it through.
Quite simply put, the idea has been suggested before and been shot down. burrowed roach can't compete with immo/sentry. P just will back up and go again. Also usually they have an obs with them. Its literally an integral part of the build. Also the moveout timing you're using there is wrong. Assuming no weird nydus thoughts going through his head like there were in this game, the move-out is around 8:50 in most games people would consider "textbook optimal". The warp prism joins up around 9:00, not 9:30 and the push is attacking your third with a forcefield wall already in place and all 3 immortals pumping away with the 2nd full warp-in coming in at 9:45-9:50.
You're literally just hoping he didn't make an observer which is a very bad way to think at high level play.
The warp prism in that vod was not delayed at all. Unfortunately, we can't see all chrono's, but there is non-stop immortal production into warp prism and the warp prism pops out at 9:30. Unless there was a full minute where the robo was not being chronoed and could have been, the warp prism is not coming out at 9 minutes.
Is there a link to a video of the warp prism coming out at 9 minutes that builds at least one combat unit before the robo is placed? If there is, why is his warp prism 30 seconds delayed in this VOD? Here is a replay where he got the warp prism out by 9:07, what did he do differently? Did he mis-use chrono's in the gomplayer vod?
I don't think the nydus delayed his push in that VOD. The nydus attempt was killed way before the third immortal came out.
P just will back up and go again
How? Your lings or the force fields that they used to keep your lings out should be stopping them from backing up and kiting your burrowed roaches. It still needs to be roach/ling, lings need to force them to use force fields/hold them in place, and the roaches are to focus down sentry's that are trapped by either lings or force fields.
I thought the current way to hold was to get good surrounds with roach/ling, and hope they misplace some force fields and/or you snipe some full energy sentries. Are you suggesting that the resources invested into burrow/claws are less effective than having one or 2 more roaches and roach speed?
Looking at the build parting uses, it also lacks a full wall off, or a zealot blocking the hole, it has no vision of the map and, at least on ohana, doesn't have pylons in a spot to allow for a full wall off in a second location, so if you get passed the first partial wall off you are home free. Without a sentry, I don't think he would be able to pull a probe from the mineral line and wall it off while your lings are running up the ramp. Further, his sentries are delayed compared to other sentry/immortal all ins that get a sentry before the robo. There may easily be a timing to exploit in there where even a bunch of slow lings can run in and punish the build.
How? Your lings or the force fields that they used to keep your lings out should be stopping them from backing up and kiting your burrowed roaches. It still needs to be roach/ling, lings need to force them to use force fields/hold them in place, and the roaches are to focus down sentry's that are trapped by either lings or force fields.
I thought the current way to hold was to get good surrounds with roach/ling, and hope they misplace some force fields and/or you snipe some full energy sentries. Are you suggesting that the resources invested into burrow/claws are less effective than having one or 2 more roaches and roach speed?
You'd be pretty surprised how hard it is to get a good 3 way surround on maps like cloud kingdom and not have him get half your forces in the ff wall so he kills all that guaranteed and any forces that are still bugging out at the forcefield edges he gets too. Any natural terrain (Ohana's middle raised things and tree islands for example) really help him accomplish these easily since it means you have to run through chokes to retreat each time and he'll probably get a good chunk if he's not a moron.
The problem is at GM level, semi-pro and professional level, the Protoss is extremely proficient at this and there's almost no way other than to just macro macro and hope he fucks up.
That's the real problem right now is a lot of people approach this very one-dimensionally. I know a decent amount of GMs and they all play very tight. I see them moving out within :15 of Parting's execution and yes the warp prism is around 9:00-9:15. Ask anyone on this board who has personally requested to face some of my practice friends. They will confirm its completely different when a solid Grandmaster's timing with this push and composition.
On December 21 2012 03:54 sCCrooked wrote: Ask anyone on this board who has personally requested to face some of my practice friends. They will confirm its completely different when a solid Grandmaster's timing with this push and composition.
It's definitely a... little harder =)
Crooked and his buddies were kind enough to let me run some games with them, as I wanted to see what the difference was between some of the opponents I've faced and someone really good was when going hydras. As stupid as it sounds, one of the biggest differences I found was simple macro. My opening 8:00 is decent, getting me to 70 supply by 8:00 (I know it can be better but he also stalker-harassed me), but I had a hard time getting out sufficient units to feel comfortable engaging his army.
The gap in skill was huge, and I'm not sure how much of the loss was just inferior macro on my part vs my actual unit comp; I'll be working to iron out the imperfections in my build. (BTW I'm sure if I had gone roach/ling I would have gotten equally, if not more, stomped =P) I don't have an opinion on tunneling claws one way or another, I can see the potential of it with very good micro, but the build in the hands of a good protoss is a somewhat different ballgame.
On a related note, I felt that stopping drones at 8:00 was not the way to go, unless I had a much earlier macrohatch as I was not able to get out enough lings to delay at all. I feel like you need at least 36 speedlings or so to trade/harass cost efficiently when he moves out. Is 8:00 still when people stop droning for this, or is it earlier (especially with the more optimized openers that are coming out, like 70 supply by 7:15)?
Alright, I've been watching this thread for a while and I still haven't seen this.
Hello! I am a ~1K pt master's Zerg and I learned this answer to the sentry/immortal push from my GM friend. It's actually quite simple!
Play standard, 15p/16h ~21-26 3rd. 2 gases at 6:00. Now, you have all discussed the tells that it is coming. When you know this, you need to do these changes to the standard build: A slightly delayed standard rw / evo: ~6:30ish. Ling speed - > +1 carapace - > Lair in that order. Macro hatch at 6:45, make sure to work in a queen for extra injects for it. Stop drones at 58-60, take no more gases. Stay on 2.
The trick is that you need to pump lings the moment you are saturated. You should have +1 carapace and 40+ lings outside of his base by 9:20 to meet his army to force FF's and do damage if you determine you can engage (Do not sac your army, you just want to engage and force some FF's). While doing this, you should be pumping additional lings and about 10 roaches. Make sure you get another good engagement in the open and it really is this simple! I am not entirely sure if it work in Code S, but my GM friend has been doing it for a very long time and he has no issue, nor do I. It is extremely key that you do not engage fully if you do not have +1 carapace finished.
EPT
