On December 04 2012 06:13 Defenestrator wrote: Pretty much agree with what you said (I think I've made many of the same points before =)), but I wanted to add that I don't see how a roach/ling defense is any different from a hydra/ling defense when the opponent retreats with one exception: prevention of the 3rd/harassing or killing the retreat is easier with roach/ling due to their speed. You see this so rarely however that I don't know how feasible it is one way or another; it depends on the unit counts and forcefields, I suppose.
Simple, with roach/ling, your opponent wouldn't retreat, talking about killing the retreat with roach/ling assumes something that doesn't happen. The whole point of this threat is due to the difficulty of defending with roach/ling, why else are we talking about hydras.
Yes of course, but as you said a criticism of defending with roach/ling vs defending with hydras is that if they see hydras and retreat, then supposedly you're behind than if you just went roach/ling. I'm just saying that your tech at this point is no different anyway, so it doesn't really matter (as long as you didn't overbuild hydras).
I just posted about this in another thread, but it probably fits better here:
Honestly, I've found that the best way to hold this push on Ohana involves Nydus. If you scout it or know it is coming, throw down a Nydus ASAP and use it to basetrade. Pull drones from the third to the main and spine at the top of the ramp. This way you can bring your amy back for the most part when they try to push the top of your ramp and you can hold your main while wiping out their bases entirely.
http://drop.sc/282818 - this is a replay where the toss tries to bust the main ramp after the nydus.
Obviously the execution isn't Parting level, either from them or me (I'm merely a mid-high masters player), but the idea is there and seems pretty solid.
ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
Replays?
Sounds like it could work, but I imagine you have to be super-active with your lings. I'll second the request for replays and a build =P
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
The upgrades might not be viable, but the idea of mass lings to stop the push certainly is. The problem with this style is that if they just go for the immo/sentry expand off like 5 gates into 12:30 timing push, your forces pretty much just melt. Its not always readily apparent by even a double overlord scout if they're going for this or not vs the 7 gate all-in version.
Earlier lings in mass at the front of their natural plain old stops immo/sentry cold. They will use the first warp-in as all-zealots and all you have to do is just wait 'till they move out and keep forcing them to use ffs before their second warp-in completes. If you do it right, you should be able to get 2 full rounds of ffs out of their sentries before they have enough to really threaten your lings. Then you just pull back to the second open engagement site (most of them have at least 2 main areas you can engage in between yours and his natural chokes) and do the same thing. You can get their sentries to be completely empty before they even make it over to you. I like to use 3-way surrounds and 3 control groups of army for keeping them all timed correctly, but I've seen it done with just simple mouse selection timing (its much more difficult to get this down though).
If you can macro like HyuN, all you have to do is get macro hatch and 70 supply by 7:15 and double evos going down at 6:40 or so. You'll have enough gas even with normal 2 gas at 6:00 and 1 gas at 7:00 for the double ups.
Ever since I started making that first pack of lings pop around 8:10 with speed and 1/1, I haven't had much if any trouble with immo/sentry all-ins and I can put a lot of pressure on the Protoss third if they try the immo/sentry expand (completely denying it or even killing them if they don't defend properly).
On December 10 2012 04:52 mumming wrote: ive beaten up to 1100 master toss with just mass 2-2 zergling baneling without drop into muta. I win most zvp's especially against immortal sentry. just take a little bit earlier gasses and you can but not nescessarily delay your third. If protoss tries to take third just kill him if you see any hole. Ofc attack from multiple angles and bait ff's and stuff.
just how late are these protosses attacking you? there should be no way you could have 2-2 even close to being done for this attack. even if you went for 2-2 off two base with fast gases it's impossible. you'd have to be starting 1-1 upgrades at around 4:00 ..who has 250/250 at 4 minutes? then 2-2 costs 400/400 and you need to have that money + lair ready as soon as your upgrades finish..all this with not necessarily delaying your 3rd? are you even talking about the same immortal-sentry allin?
as for the post above me..this thread's about the all-in... not the expanding to a 3rd build.
Though 2/2 is not realistic against a decent toss, 1-1 is possible, given a few extra seconds. I've seen it a couple times on pro matches - but it's still hazardous as hell.
On December 11 2012 00:32 hfsrj wrote: Though 2/2 is not realistic against a decent toss, 1-1 is possible, given a few extra seconds. I've seen it a couple times on pro matches - but it's still hazardous as hell.
There's really no reason to take such a risk just for 1/1. I mean off 3 base you can just rely on mass anything to stop their mass anything for the most part. I still greatly recommend the earlier ling pack. If you're good, 70 or greater supply by 7:15 is perfectly do-able and would let you get full 3 base saturation, all tech started (lair, evos, etc) and a lot of lings around 7:50-8:00 in plenty of time to poke around and stop them from the moment they try to step out of their base.
I'll try to get my practice buddies to play me so I can showcase this particular timing vs GM level and pro players.
Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
The difference is that pure ling styles are actually pretty challenging to pull off just because of how active you have to be with them. Pros might be able to do this, but at lower levels I'd look for a less multi-intensive solution the more common gamer might find easier to pull off. That being said, I love pure ling styles and actively advocate delaying roach production when you suspect immo/sentry composition just because of how quickly you can snatch map control until their push timing. I do however keep a warren built at the regular time just in case they decide to do some weird cancellation mind games so I can easily get back to "normal" composition for the midgame.
However, I've noticed at the GM level that Protoss are able to make really good ffs so that there's 1 tiny hole that lings can come through. They simply reinforce with pure zealot to stop my lings and create ff sim city with enough of a leak they can really slaughter lings. Then they just move the ff wall so that 1 edge of my third hatchery is within the boundaries and then they retreat after killing it having secured a very big advantage.
They cannot do this if I have roaches because the roaches can hit the zealots clogging the 1 hole they purposely made. If I go pure ling, they often switched up their ff formations and I found myself at a great disadvantage with tons of +2 zealots pouring in behind a massive ff wall and 3 immortals pounding away in the back. Just having the warren at least gives me the opportunity to create some sort of counter-tech to what I've been leading them to believe they need to create.
On another note, basically if you're doing banes without drop, you're relying on the P making a mistake by him not hitting f fast enough imo. I don't see any other way to make un-speed-upgraded banes connect well other than hoping "plz don't be paying attention right now".
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
This would seem like a great idea if 1/1 finished in time for you to engage him in the middle of the map, but I've only ever seen it complete when the P is already in your 3rd, so there's no surface area. you'd have to take some pretty early gas... does it essentially become a 2 base opening?
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
This would seem like a great idea if 1/1 finished in time for you to engage him in the middle of the map, but I've only ever seen it complete when the P is already in your 3rd, so there's no surface area. you'd have to take some pretty early gas... does it essentially become a 2 base opening?
If i remember correctly, yeah you have to stall in the middle of the map for a while as 1/1 can finish at like 10:30 off a reasonable evo chamber timing and immortal all-ins that don't get delayed can hit faster, so ideally you could defend the 3rd.
Sorry if i don't have any pro evidence to back this up
Someone gosu told me he doesn't have a hard time holding off this attack as long as he doesn't slip up his macro, with the build he uses. He plays 'standard' 3 base roach/ling but he makes an adjustment I've hardly seen anyone else make..when he does not suspect a quick warpgate attack (watching forge/chronos, suiciding overlord, gas timings), instead of getting the roach warren/evo chamber/extra gases at the usual timings, he adds another hatch in his main instead, then gets all of those afterwards. Then Lair, ling speed, melee attack upgrade, roach speed. Also gets a 4th queen I think a bit early to get some creep spread which helps a lot, set up flanks on the largest areas near the 3rd/nat.
I haven't had a chance yet to try this out but it sounds like it might make all the difference in stopping this, and I trust he knows what he's doing. Usually with most normal macro hatch timings, it doesn't quite kick in with boosting your larva in time for the key moment of holding this attack.
You've just got to be right that he doesn't go for a quick attack or you're going to be dead with such a late roach warren.
On December 11 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Many pro Z's try to delay roaches/roach upgrades and get 1/1 in time for the push, getting two evos instead of one. That idea is definitely pretty cool and it's worked very well in pro games.
I don't think you should go for 2/2 if the Protoss is 2basing though (not sure how the timings work out), and i also don't think banelings without drop do much against 10+ sentries.
This would seem like a great idea if 1/1 finished in time for you to engage him in the middle of the map, but I've only ever seen it complete when the P is already in your 3rd, so there's no surface area. you'd have to take some pretty early gas... does it essentially become a 2 base opening?
If i remember correctly, yeah you have to stall in the middle of the map for a while as 1/1 can finish at like 10:30 off a reasonable evo chamber timing and immortal all-ins that don't get delayed can hit faster, so ideally you could defend the 3rd.
Sorry if i don't have any pro evidence to back this up
It's not just stalling for 1/1, you have to keep him in the middle of the map. Even if you delay him enough that you have 1/1 by the time he gets to your base, you are still dead (sen).
I'm not sure you can stall him enough with only 0/0 lings, without losing too many of those lings.
Interesting point about the macro hatch timing. zelniq, is that macro hatch before ANY gas? or on 2 gas, before adding geysers 3-4
Ive had success with delaying with lings and Going for infestation pit right when my lair is done and taking 6 gases. I can delay long enough to get 4 infestors out and roach/ling. Only Diamond on KR tho.
On December 11 2012 10:33 Buffalo_ wrote: I've had success adding hydras with less roaches and more lings.
My only issue with using hydras to stop an immortal/sentry all in is that if you win the battle you can't counter. The hydras are too slow to move off creep. With the roaches, at least you can get speed upgrade and they can move out to deny a third. Hydras just sit in the base and take up supply. I guess you can spread creep to the fourth and use hydras as defense. Still this is more conservative than an aggressive play.
EPT
