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Thanks for all the feedback guys =)
6xFPCs, with respect to zeal/sentry/immo, this replay is from the first post I had on this topic (not sure if you saw it): http://drop.sc/270235
For some reason this was one of my easier games; he opens with mostly zeal/sentry then switches to stalkers for reinforce. Personally I don't think zeal warpins instead of stalkers would make that big of a difference as long as lings are alive to tank, and the +1 carapace helps a lot in this regard. The other main thing though is that stalker/sentry synergize well together, while FF's will do very little for zeals when fighting hydra/ling (hydras will always be in range of zealots pretty much). Still I'll see if I can test this out.
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I am not really sure if it is at all feasible but has anyone explored using an overseer to contaminate the robo? could be usefull if it is possible to fit it in.
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On November 24 2012 07:27 Startyr wrote:
I am not really sure if it is at all feasible but has anyone explored using an overseer to contaminate the robo? could be usefull if it is possible to fit it in.
Considering that your lair finishes after his final immortal is done, seems kind of not important
Mass changeling would be a better use of resources IMO
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I think nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
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On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote:
I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
that would probably work until blizzard buff sentries to be immune to fungal
lulz
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On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote:
I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in
This was pretty awesome to watch. Nerchio and Fraer both played this out really nicely; however the skill required to pull this off seems pretty damned high. Nerchio had to have really good ling control while not missing a beat with getting infestors out in time.
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On November 24 2012 09:13 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote:
I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in that would probably work until blizzard buff sentries to be immune to fungal lulz
hah! 
I'm not against using hydras to beat this all in. It would be nice if they made hydra speed lairtech, but this is TL::Sc2Strategy not bnet forums so not really the place to discuss HOTS.
How successful have hydras been if he turns around, turtles behind colo/sentry, and pushes with 4-5 colossi and just hits a stronger pre-hive timing than usual?
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Hi all!
I'm a mid master European zerg who recently tried fast infestors and spines: it works sometimes. I usually try Nestea base trade with muta & 1-1 lings. If u have a good macro and manage to spawn 15 mutas or so, the base trade is yours. I want to try ling-roach and bane drop. The protoss army needs to be delayed by lings till minute 11 or so in order to have 1-1 and bane drop.
It goes without saying: requires a hell of a micro.
PS: can anybody provide an URL where Nerchio stops the all in? Thanks!
Edit reason: typing mistakes.
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I don't think the vods are up yet, you should keep an eye for Nerchio vs Fraer in the current Dreamhack. The game itself is only worth mentioning until Fraer decides to put the third down, it should give zergs some good ideas, although I think Fraer made the mistake of lingering on too long with his army (and possibly wasting way too many force field at the first engagement). All in all though, I personally consider Nerchio's response the best one, trying to slow the all in as much as possible by sending units along the way and threatening with an immediate base race (if you go for a base race while the protoss in already is in your base, he's going to win it; if you go for a base race while the protoss is barely outside of his own, and has to walk across nearly most of the map to get to kill you, he's probably going to lose it and will feel forced to back off and defend. This is what prompted Fraer to basically forfeit his all in even tho he had a strongly superior army - even when infestors came out).
I actually think that a superior player could figure out the proper amount of units to keep the protoss contained while still droning up as much as possible (without going straight into infestor tech). If it works, it could force the protoss to do what Fraer did -> feeling the all in is wasted and trying to get back into a macro game by placing a third, but by then you would have a commanding economic lead. The risk is of course he doesn't take the bait and just goes straight into the all in anyway, there you'd probably have to actually base race him, but you may have the ability to use all your extra drones into a very thick spine wall
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On November 24 2012 09:25 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:13 neoghaleon55 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:09 syriuszonito wrote:
I thing nerchio showed the best way to defend this all in today, that is mass some early lings to buy time to get infestors out. Infestors behind spines with ling support pretty much destory this all in that would probably work until blizzard buff sentries to be immune to fungal lulz hah! I'm not against using hydras to beat this all in. It would be nice if they made hydra speed lairtech, but this is TL::Sc2Strategy not bnet forums so not really the place to discuss HOTS. How successful have hydras been if he turns around, turtles behind colo/sentry, and pushes with 4-5 colossi and just hits a stronger pre-hive timing than usual?
FWIW, the proposed change that would make sentries immune to fungal is intended for WoL. That said, it'd be a pretty dumb patch, so I doubt it will actually be implemented.
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Well, nerchio tried ling infestor spines (not blind) against immortal sentry all in at IPL5 against naniwa... it didnt work. Protoss still destroys everything.
Nerchio picked ohana as the last map of the bo3. He probably thought he naniwa would go immo sentry and he would counter it. But he failed, naniwa just built zealots sentries immortals and nerchio was not able to block it.
I think hydras are the best choice we can do guys.
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Stephanos +1/+1 melee upgrades with late lair proved to be pretty bad against this all in as well at IPL. Still haven't seen anyone defeat it if the protoss doesn't fuck up forcefields.
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On November 30 2012 20:08 Insoleet wrote:
Well, nerchio tried ling infestor spines (not blind) against immortal sentry all in at IPL5 against naniwa... it didnt work. Protoss still destroys everything.
Nerchio picked ohana as the last map of the bo3. He probably thought he naniwa would go immo sentry and he would counter it. But he failed, naniwa just built zealots sentries immortals and nerchio was not able to block it.
I think hydras are the best choice we can do guys.
nerchio used exactly the same response as he used against Fraer on cloud kingdom at dreamhack.
against fraer, he attacked with speedlings as soon as fraer moved out, delaying the push enough for infestors.
Against naniwa, his speed was still about 10 seconds from complete when naniwa moved out so he couldn't engage, and once naniwa was at the watchtower he was able to move across the map. he didnt' get delayed nearly as much as fraer. as a result the infestors were not even close to complete.
I don't know what accounted for the difference in ling speed timing, but it seemed like naniwa just had more balls than fraer (or more confidence in his own forcefields) and pushed aggressively despite the lings, instead of waiting for more units.
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On December 01 2012 06:45 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 20:08 Insoleet wrote:
Well, nerchio tried ling infestor spines (not blind) against immortal sentry all in at IPL5 against naniwa... it didnt work. Protoss still destroys everything.
Nerchio picked ohana as the last map of the bo3. He probably thought he naniwa would go immo sentry and he would counter it. But he failed, naniwa just built zealots sentries immortals and nerchio was not able to block it.
I think hydras are the best choice we can do guys. nerchio used exactly the same response as he used against Fraer on cloud kingdom at dreamhack. against fraer, he attacked with speedlings as soon as fraer moved out, delaying the push enough for infestors. Against naniwa, his speed was still about 10 seconds from complete when naniwa moved out so he couldn't engage, and once naniwa was at the watchtower he was able to move across the map. he didnt' get delayed nearly as much as fraer. as a result the infestors were not even close to complete. I don't know what accounted for the difference in ling speed timing, but it seemed like naniwa just had more balls than fraer (or more confidence in his own forcefields) and pushed aggressively despite the lings, instead of waiting for more units.
Yeah everything felt off for Nerchio this game. In addition to late speed, he just didn't have a lot of speedlings when Naniwa moved out, which you need to bait FF's. Overall he just seemed to not play as well this game (though I didn't see the relative moveout times of Naniwa vs Fraer, though I would imagine it should be pretty much at the same time).
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Anyone having success stopping this push with pure lings? This get you infestor faster.
I was told it can be done but I am unable to do it.
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I'm having big successes with hydras lings (and roaches then) against this all in actually. (like 9 win out of 9 immortal all ins... since i use hydras. before, it was 0 win out of 9 immo all ins :D)
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On December 04 2012 00:39 b0ub0u wrote:
Anyone having success stopping this push with pure lings? This get you infestor faster.
I was told it can be done but I am unable to do it.
It's definitely doable (that's how I deal with it against master protosses, and it works very well). But you have to take lair before any upgrades bar metabolic boost, you absolutely need a macro hatch, and the key for this to work is spines, a lot of them. Lings alone don't cut it to hold until infestors. Ff you can sneak in +1 carapace just after lair it should finish during the battles and helps a lot.
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Hydras into corrupters work pretty well for me. The argument that protoss can just retreat, take a third and counter hydras with colossi is not really practical.
1. If protoss is really doing a sentry/immortal push, and not a sentry/immortal expand, he will be making 3 immortals - warp prism - observer in that order, which means he will not be able to scout the hydra tech until the first battle on the zerg side of the map. Before he sees hydras, protoss will not be taking a third nexus or making a robo bay or building more probes, because he is spending resources on warp-ins as he moves across the map. To react after seeing hydras is a complete overhaul of the protoss strategy, and not as easy as some people are suggesting.
2. The transition after hydra is not extremely hard for zerg. To build a reactive robo bay takes 65 seconds, plus another 100 seconds (assuming non stop chrono boosts) to get 2 colossi out with thermal lance upgrade, for a total of 165 seconds. It takes 100 seconds for zerg to make a spire after protoss retreats, plus 35 seconds for corrupters for a total of 135 seconds. The counter push with 3 colossi on 3 base is still very strong but no where near the level of a 3 base colossi timing from a sentry/immortal expand build, and certainly not an auto win because zerg made some hydras early on.
I will say that I've lost quite a few games when I tried to transition into ling/infestors after protoss retreats, the late infestors don't have as much energy as they would if I didn't go hydras, and not having corrupters out in time to deal with the colossi push is quite difficult. I suggest getting corrupters before infestors if you are going for a hydra defense to deal with this all-in.
3. Often times protoss will engage anyway, and while hydra/ling won't give you an auto win, it is infinitely superior compared to a roach/ling defense. If protoss loses too much, zerg has the option of making a huge round of roaches and cancel the protoss third with roach hydra before the colossi comes out.
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On December 04 2012 04:58 w3jjjj wrote:
I will say that I've lost quite a few games when I tried to transition into ling/infestors after protoss retreats, the late infestors don't have as much energy as they would if I didn't go hydras, and not having corrupters out in time to deal with the colossi push is quite difficult. I suggest getting corrupters before infestors if you are going for a hydra defense to deal with this all-in.
Pretty much agree with what you said (I think I've made many of the same points before =)), but I wanted to add that I don't see how a roach/ling defense is any different from a hydra/ling defense when the opponent retreats with one exception: prevention of the 3rd/harassing or killing the retreat is easier with roach/ling due to their speed. You see this so rarely however that I don't know how feasible it is one way or another; it depends on the unit counts and forcefields, I suppose.
As far as the transition goes however, if you're going for a roach/ling defense (which is much more difficult than a hydra/ling defense) then you're probably not getting an infestation pit anyway since you're spending all your money on units, so the timing on the tech transition is pretty much the same.
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On December 04 2012 06:13 Defenestrator wrote:
Pretty much agree with what you said (I think I've made many of the same points before =)), but I wanted to add that I don't see how a roach/ling defense is any different from a hydra/ling defense when the opponent retreats with one exception: prevention of the 3rd/harassing or killing the retreat is easier with roach/ling due to their speed. You see this so rarely however that I don't know how feasible it is one way or another; it depends on the unit counts and forcefields, I suppose.
Simple, with roach/ling, your opponent wouldn't retreat, talking about killing the retreat with roach/ling assumes something that doesn't happen. The whole point of this threat is due to the difficulty of defending with roach/ling, why else are we talking about hydras.
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EPT
