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On November 19 2012 16:02 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site) Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
With the mass spine build, wouldn't he have been able to cancel a bunch of spines if he saw an expand? That would leave you with a nice drone lead + infestors, how would he be that far behind?
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I played against this on ladder yesterday, and I don't see it as that powerful. I guess mid master toss' are bad :D
http://drop.sc/277042
I go 5:45 double gas, and got a late roach warren + evo (forgot; would've liked it at 7:15-7:30). I just swarm his all in and win easily, kinda funny. A +2 blink/immortal all in later and he GG's, I had >80 drones, hive, and yeah definitely a winning position.
Good replay to watch IMO, an extremely clean defense.
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On November 20 2012 08:31 Mavvie wrote:I played against this on ladder yesterday, and I don't see it as that powerful. I guess mid master toss' are bad :D http://drop.sc/277042I go 5:45 double gas, and got a late roach warren + evo (forgot; would've liked it at 7:15-7:30). I just swarm his all in and win easily, kinda funny. A +2 blink/immortal all in later and he GG's, I had >80 drones, hive, and yeah definitely a winning position. Good replay to watch IMO, an extremely clean defense.
Not to diminish your play or anything, but that replay is pretty irrelevant. He made the worst possible mistakes while moving out: he never used his stalker to scout ahead (he should have scouted that amount of zergling close to the watch tower), he misplaced his force fields which were completely useless since he didn't put distance between his army and your roaches (they were basically shooting without hindrance, like there was no force field at all) and he just rallied away his warp prism to your third without ever having it factor into the battle (wouldn't have made much of a difference probably, but still, Parting's WP micro IS part of how he keeps the immortals alive especially against large waves of zerglings).
You played really well, but he played really bad, this is not how a sentry/immortal all in is supposed to go. It's not one of those all ins that work because you get the enemy off guard and can safely a-move to victory, it's strong because the units involved are strong if used correctly.
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Someone really needs to perfect Parting's method, lol. WCS replays out sooooooon...!
What Suppy did was hilarious. I've seen him do that before but he sure went overkill. Irony is that Parting could just retreat, lol.
EDIT: There is a short window of time for Protoss to make the right call, isn't there? Also congrats Suppy. You did amazing  .
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That's how I hold it nowadays:
http://drop.sc/277340
I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build.
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On November 20 2012 13:29 Qwyn wrote:Someone really needs to perfect Parting's method, lol. WCS replays out sooooooon...! What Suppy did was hilarious. I've seen him do that before but he sure went overkill. Irony is that Parting could just retreat, lol. EDIT: There is a short window of time for Protoss to make the right call, isn't there? Also congrats Suppy. You did amazing .
Trust me, many protosses are already doing that. ; )
I already have very extensive notes on this build for example. (:
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On November 21 2012 05:17 Evaner wrote:That's how I hold it nowadays: http://drop.sc/277340I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build.
Ok so basically, its standard opening and building all units you can from 8:00 ?
Did you take only 3 gas because of the supply block or do you take always only 3 gas ?
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I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
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On November 21 2012 07:13 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 05:17 Evaner wrote:That's how I hold it nowadays: http://drop.sc/277340I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build. Ok so basically, its standard opening and building all units you can from 8:00 ? Did you take only 3 gas because of the supply block or do you take always only 3 gas ?
Yes it's very similar to a standard opening but you need to have a macro hatchery going and the upgrade in production (carapace) by the 7:50, at 8:00 you must have alredy started your unit production. The macro hatchery is to support the ling swarm, you never want to have more than 3 gasses or you'll have to go for a mostly roach composition.
A roach only defense is hopeless against any proper Immortal all in, not only it forces you into +attack ranged which is bad for late game transitions, but you won't even have speed by the time he's in your base. You will need lings to bite forcefields and snipe sentries or it's impossible to hold it.
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On November 21 2012 08:10 Evaner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 07:13 Insoleet wrote:On November 21 2012 05:17 Evaner wrote:That's how I hold it nowadays: http://drop.sc/277340I used to play a particular 3 hatch ling/hydra build that worked really well against any two base timing, Immortal all in included, but the amount of opponents I play around the top50 GM is limited and most of em started to blind counter it after losing one or two games. Overall, the build I played in the replay is the most solid but it takes decent engagements and flawless macro, otherwise you simply won't have enough. Ideally, you want to avoid the supply block at 7.10 and maybe see something with the overlord, so you don't need the 3 blind spores that I had to build. Ok so basically, its standard opening and building all units you can from 8:00 ? Did you take only 3 gas because of the supply block or do you take always only 3 gas ? Yes it's very similar to a standard opening but you need to have a macro hatchery going and the upgrade in production (carapace) by the 7:50, at 8:00 you must have alredy started your unit production. The macro hatchery is to support the ling swarm, you never want to have more than 3 gasses or you'll have to go for a mostly roach composition. A roach only defense is hopeless against any proper Immortal all in, not only it forces you into +attack ranged which is bad for late game transitions, but you won't even have speed by the time he's in your base. You will need lings to bite forcefields and snipe sentries or it's impossible to hold it.
Infested Terrans, respect how well their damage scales with upgrades!
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Italy12248 Posts
On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
Protoss always gets an obs with this build.
Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
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On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
You always build an obs after the WP and rally it to your army, by the time burrow would be a problem your obs is there.
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On November 21 2012 08:23 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow. Protoss always gets an obs with this build. Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
Isn't Evaner's response the standard one (with maybe 1 less gas)? He seems to play it out pretty cleanly from standard play. How is how he would react any different from standard?
Also, as Suppy (SuperiorWolf) said, one of the best ways to read this build is to probe count and check for chrono on the nexus, otherwise you can't know for sure. If he does have the standard ~45ish probe count and chooses to expand instead of attack, you should still have a slight edge with your higher drone count (as long as you catch his expo asap).
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On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow.
As protoss after you move out with 3 immortals you should be rallying a warp prism and then an observer (I usually rally directly onto an immortal).
So generally burrow wouldn't hit for a little while after the push it self hits, meaning that your observer should be ready by the time burrow would be scary.
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On November 21 2012 08:23 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow. Protoss always gets an obs with this build. Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
If he takes a third you just add another 2 gasses, take a forth and then the last gas. Obviously you will have made quite a few units by the time he tryes to take a third, you should easly be able to deny it and often time even snipe some sentries as soon as speed kicks in.
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Meanwhile in Korea, the last Protoss (Creator) gets knocked out of Code S. Ironic that he falls trying to use this strategy in the final game lol.
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On November 21 2012 10:10 Incomplet wrote:
Meanwhile in Korea, the last Protoss (Creator) gets knocked out of Code S. Ironic that he falls trying to use this strategy in the final game lol.
Creator tilted badly.
His timing was late, he ran his sentries in a line instead of in a ball.
Creator's always been terribad with this soul build.
Last time he tried to do this shit against DRG, he died also.
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On November 21 2012 08:23 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow. Protoss always gets an obs with this build. Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then?
I'd love to see one replay of a player WAITING for the obs before attacking the 3rd. I'm not saying you burrow and auto win, but burrow should buy you 2 injects worth of units every single time. Am I wrong about that or is that extra production not worth the earlier gas?
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On November 21 2012 11:11 Dubsy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 08:23 Teoita wrote:On November 21 2012 07:31 Dubsy wrote:
I have a question. I play Protoss and I play immortal sentry all in maybe 10-15% of my PvZ, so the sample size isn't huge, but why have I never, ever seen burrow used to help counter this? Is there not enough time to get lair and burrow done off of 3 hatch play?
It feels like burrowed lings (or god forbid 1/1 lings) would be an absolute night mare to deal with. Worst case you buy yourself a full minute or two for the obs to get there. I guess maybe that's not worth the 200 gas it takes to get lair+burrow. Protoss always gets an obs with this build. Also Evaner, do you have trouble if the Protoss just fakes the immortal all-in and expands instead (say you see 4gates, no twilight, 2 immortals, and then your ovie scout gets killed)? What's your reaction then? I'd love to see one replay of a player WAITING for the obs before attacking the 3rd. I'm not saying you burrow and auto win, but burrow should buy you 2 injects worth of units every single time. Am I wrong about that or is that extra production not worth the earlier gas?
Even if it does, i can keep warping units while you get your injects, and when my obs is here your burrow is useless. Not saying it's never worth it tho, it can help tilt the protoss player, and can be very useful on larger maps where the obs would take forever to arrive. Just saying it's not a 100% counter to the strategy altogether.
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True I guess your still adding to your army. And I guess if your gonna research something from lair you might as well go drop (although that takes longer iirc). Fair enough. Asked and answered.
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EPT
