EPTEDIT : Just don't overmake the hydralisks.
[G] ZvP: Defeating the Sentry/Immortal All-in - Page 15
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TelecoM
United States10666 Posts
EDIT : Just don't overmake the hydralisks. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:17 GGzerG wrote: It is actually really easy to stop the immortal / sentry all in just by adding hydralisk into your mix with the roaches, the hydralisks destroy all units except colossi...I have a very high success rate stopping the immortal sentry all in with roach hydra speedling, with very few spines if timed correctly. Stephano style with hydras , the way to stop the immortal sentry all in. Then transition accordingly. EDIT : Just don't overmake the hydralisks. You can't just say its "the way to stop immortal sentry all in" without high level replays/vods. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I mean it's great if they misread or misreact and attack into you, but you're making the worst offensive unit in the game in a situation where he can back off for free. Like hydras have a huge success rate if he does attack into your concave, but that's a mistake Protoss players shouldn't make | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:30 Mavvie wrote: I should probably edit the OP about why hydras don't work. Basically upon scouting hydras they can back off, take a third for free behind colo, and shit on you with a pre-hive timing. Overmaking hydralisks...he can walk to your base and if you make less than, say, 10 hydralisks, he just kills you. If you make 10 he FFs you away and takes a third with colo, and then pre-hive timing = GG. I mean it's great if they misread or misreact and attack into you, but you're making the worst offensive unit in the game in a situation where he can back off for free. Like hydras have a huge success rate if he does attack into your concave, but that's a mistake Protoss players shouldn't make Does anyone have any VOD's/replays of this happening in a game? I hear this a lot from a theorycrafting point of view but the backing off argument has a loooooooot of problems with it if Z reacts correctly. No matter what your unit comp if you're sitting on 3 base with 55 drones to his 45 and he has no 3rd, no robo bay, and an inferior army, you're ahead. You can harass/deny his 3rd while switching tech paths in time to deal with anything he can throw at you. Also, since when are hydras the worst offensive unit in the game? they're committal, sure, but with range vs an army with a low colossi count I've found them to be quite good offensively. And also from further testing from my replay/post before, it's definitely not fast GG (for him) if he attacks into you when you have hydra. It's still not an easy hold, though I think it's much better than roach/ling. Just once all your roach/ling dies and you're just left with hydra, you have to wait for reinforcements, or use drones. Pure hydra is one of the worst unit comps in the game. I can post some reps (of wins and losses) with "reactionary" hydra (building hydras only if he moves out) if anyone's interested. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/wcsasia_1/b/335495215?t=3h2m44s http://www.twitch.tv/wcsasia/b/335373311?t=2h18m45s | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On November 16 2012 05:27 Teoita wrote: I agree on the necessity to delay the attack, but pumping units out a full minute faster than optimal is not smart when the attack is already so scary for Z. According to me, the truth is the exact opposite. 60 drones dont help you holding the push. The magic number is more like around 54. It lets you mess with the protoss from the very moment he leaves his base. If you let protoss get to the other side of the map without messing with him, you can be maxed on roaches and still lose. Historically speaking, the best zvp'ers in the world have been cutting drones earlier and earlier. The first way Z were answering immortal all-ins was the greedy way : 60 drones and a macro hatch before roach warren, lair before lingspeed to get roachspeed asap. right now you'll see more probe cut around 54 like DRG and Stephano are doing for instance. Your argument that any follow up other than immortal all in from the toss is totally fail imo, and this is why : 1) those early lingspeed and units lets you kill the immortal sentry all in or kill like 60% of it at the exact moment it leaves it base. What this means is that a protoss trying to take a 3rd and having a few less gateways can not move out of his base for a moment. If Z identifies this, he can do a round of drones and go back to army, throw down an infestation pit or whatever. This situation is even better for the Z because the carapace will then be more likely to be done before any engagment. 2) You are arguing that a toss can identify those early units and then all he has to do is not move out too early. Unless he makes an observer, which not a single toss does (they wanna max immortal production), he cant. He "leads with a zealot"? big deal. I have a ling outside your base, I see that, I kill your zealot with 4 slow roaches and you didnt scout anything. 3) You argue that the Z will be weaker vs anything else from toss. First of all, WE DONT CARE. Anything else than immortal all in is easier to hold in comparison. Because carapace upgrade will be done, Z is likely to not have his lings get two shotted, and because Z will have infestors. Any third from the toss will be delayed enough to make the investment in units worth it. Remember than on 3 mining base with 54 drones the Z will mine more than the toss anyway. If the Z keeps making units and he's not able to deny your third, he's doing something wrong. 4) A flood of zergling + infestor will hold any non collossus timing. But collossus timings come really later and can be hold easilly those days with corruptors infestors spines zerglings. I havent seen a Z playing good at a pro level die to those kind of timings in a long time. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 16 2012 18:03 Teoita wrote: There's vods of Zerg just getting killed anyway when he's going hydra: http://www.twitch.tv/wcsasia_1/b/335495215?t=3h2m44s http://www.twitch.tv/wcsasia/b/335373311?t=2h18m45s Monk posted these before and I replied a couple of pages back. The second game isn't really worth mentioning since he doesn't get hydras out in time. In the first game, Sen's build is not very good; he overdrones (61, general consensus seems to be 55 drones), gets 6 gas (I still can't decide if 4 or 5 is better, I think 5 is slightly better, adding the 5th when lair completes... 6 is definitely too high), and gets a late macrohatch. Those are his major errors; more minor ones/questionable decisions include not flanking, opting for +1 carapace instead of +1 melee (not sure whether or not this is good; I try to go for both), building pure hydra for reinforce (you NEED roaches or lings to shield), having poor creep spread, not getting any roaches, getting range instead of units, and losing all the drones at his 3rd in a really bad engagement. Even given all this, at one point during the fight, Creator's forces are dwindling while Sen is engaging with a large hydra concave and no lings. If he pulls back here and waits for the 24 lings he's building to reinforce, I think he had a shot of holding. Instead he loses almost all his hydras, left with 4-5 at the end of the fight, and it's all downhill from there. The margin of error when going hydra is still pretty small. Your build has to be very sharp, otherwise you don't get out enough units, and you have to be somewhat careful with your engagements. Still, it gives you a good shot at holding the push. | ||
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gautamvirk86
India55 Posts
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Rhedsa
Costa Rica594 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 18 2012 17:39 Rhedsa wrote: Yeah, but Sen held the first allin with 1-1 for his lings, but lost to the later 3Base-Collossi-allin. The only time i saw Parting not winning directly with this allin was against MVP.Sniper on Daybreak in the GSL 5 R16 Loosrs Match. Sniper delayed with lings, had 1carapace and sandwiched Parting. In the first engagement Sniper was able to kill a handful of sentries, so he could stream in and Parting gged, but it was very close nonetheless. Suppy held it with spine/ling/infestor, even though I think he's an inferior player. Parting had some insane micro in that game, but eventually Suppy was able to overwhelm him with ling/infestor. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On November 18 2012 18:24 Defenestrator wrote: Suppy held it with spine/ling/infestor, even though I think he's an inferior player. Parting had some insane micro in that game, but eventually Suppy was able to overwhelm him with ling/infestor. Do you have the VoD ? | ||
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
0. Basic build is, 2gas@6; @7 Scout, roach, evo, +2gas, liar, (then speed); Scout will tell (if not allin it´ll be defensive and you can pressure). @ around 8-8:30 4th hatch(macro). Build up to 60 drones before any units (NO MORE OR YOU ARE DEAD!). Build only units from now until you either see a third or you defended successfully. You need to have 2 overlords at his base (it´s standard but sometimes poeple forget it). 1. With my Evo i go +1 defense 2. Build 16 Roaches max. ( you need 12 roaches to two-shot an immortal, that´s the logic behind it, but you really only get that if you are lucky so don´t yount on it, I´m reluctant to build more than 12 actually so...) 3. MASS LINGS YEAH! 4. Catch him midmap, (atleast twice!) Notes: Idea: I tried all the other methods and this was the most successfull in my league. (mid-master) Scouting: early 4 gas, a robo and 4 finishing gates, a ton of sentrys and no stalkers (if theres 2 stalkers it´s most likely blink but most of the time you can scout the tech. Send a ling a bit after the overlord or a second one if you are not sure. General: If you get supplyblocked once you are dead. You HAVE to micro well (Focusfire, flanks, etc.). If you miss one inject you are Dead. Now of course these thing are against highmasters. I won with a missed inject against a midmaster too. This technique worked for me till top 8 master players. I can´t get any further in Ladder (cuz of my other matchups) and my Clan has no Grandmasters. But I guess since there only is a short percentage of players better than that; this could be helpful to somebody. Key to this method (for me) is the +1 carapace, it makes your lings unstoppable (again :D). About creep: I do this from time to time on certain maps (e.g. Ohana) because you have to certain that the protoss comes from that angle (otherwise it´s wasted). Also you shouldn´t rely on the creep, but attack him way before that. Reps: If you want, but it´s kinda that what the op already did, just a little adjustment here and there (which worked for me). | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
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whereismymind
United Kingdom717 Posts
Very disappointed scarlett didn't do that on antiga either.. + she didn't scout gases with ovie. Well it's easy to talk, but I think she was just very very nervous, since she didn't play well on 2nd and 3rd game too. A lot of reserve in Scarlett still.  | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
To beat this you may have to mess with him at about the 9 minute mark. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
http://twitch.tv/sc2_4/b/340983033 Starts at the 1 hr 30 min. mark almost exactly. Game is on Antiga. Suppy basically assumes the immo/sentry allin and goes for a ton of spines straight into infestor. Parting sees the spines and is hesitant to go in; he then uses elevator play into Suppy's main base.Suppy moves all his spines to his main where a looooong battle ensues. Parting consistently picks up his immortals, keeping them alive with nearly 0 health and some amazing warp prism micro. Eventually, Suppy has to pull a ton of drones, but holds, leaving him with infestor/ling and 33 drones. Parting tries to take a 3rd but Suppy counters with his forces, and Parting GG's. One reason the hold takes so long and has to pull so many drones is due to Parting's amazing control. Suppy probably could have fungal'd and focused down the warp prism with better control earlier, leaving him in a much better spot. Or he could have tried hydras =P Sen also held Parting's allin on Daybreak with roach/ling, but Parting was able to kill Sen with a followup. I think this game was more or less even after the allin, but Parting just had a better followup. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
But after I defeated Scarlett, Suppy examined her replays. Having seen my timings and strategies in those replays, Suppy blindly built 15 Spine Crawlers and Zerglings even before I had moved out to attack. My pride as a professional gamer could not tolerate such actions, so I decided to show him what for by attacking him even harder. This is not a legit way to hold this push. | ||
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Siggeh
Norway71 Posts
And very important that the map is Cloud kingdom thx. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:57 sitromit wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382863 This is not a legit way to hold this push. Agreed. The only way Suppy beat PartinG in the first 2 games was basically by meta'ing him and taking a bunch of shortcuts. Then PartinG played standard and beat him 3 straight with relative ease. Not taking anything away from Suppy, but PartinG is kinda good. The way Suppy played was not losing necessarily if Parting hadn't moved out, since he had infestor tech, a ton of drones, and a lot of spines (which he would have needed later anyway). However, he definitely assumed immo/sentry and his strat would have put him behind alternatives (like not getting a billion spines) if Parting had chosen to just expand. And also, it was cool to see a foreigner hold Parting's infamous push =) | ||
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
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