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ShamW0W
160 Posts
I've been getting out speedlings earlier than usual to make sure the P can't have a forward position set up, go back to droning some, then if it's Sentry/Immortal I harass the army all the way across the map trying to bait as many FF's as humanly possible before flanking the army with Roach/Ling. If it turns out they're taking a 3rd I take gasses 5/6, drop an infestation pit, and grab a 4th. Working out fairly well this week at least. | ||
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Xtreme94
Malaysia282 Posts
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arcane1129
United States271 Posts
-Game gets messy after he stops the push drg vs creator: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70994/?set=4&lang= -Slightly different version Both players seem to have stopped it by hitting them as soon as they leave their base | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:12 Xtreme94 wrote: Have anyone try hydra-ling? I think it counter immortal sentry all in quite hard... 1) Skipping roaches opens up a ton of other problems in early game PvZ. 2) Hydras are terrible if the Protoss doesn't commit. If P sees hydras he can just back out, tech up to colossus and take a third. Hydras are really bad offensively because of their slow speed off creep, which really limits their use on modern maps with long rush distances. I mean for what it's worth, 2base infestor and 2base muta also destroy this all-in. However, none sane would ever immortal all-in vs a 2base Zerg...same thing with going hydras, and doing exclusively those two builds opens up a ton of other problems for Z. Also, what the poster above me said is correct. Modern immortal all-ins really focus on speed so they tend to just move out with the sentries+immortals, which is a really vulnerable moment for the P. If the Zerg engages and delays in the middle of the map he has more time to increase his roach count and set up counters to further delay the attack, or flanks to engage it better. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:12 Xtreme94 wrote: Have anyone try hydra-ling? I think it counter immortal sentry all in quite hard... See this post on previous page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647¤tpage=12#226 Does anyone have replays/VODs of toss retreating vs hydra if they see it and teching to colossi? I have a hard time believing this is viable if Zerg either doesn't let toss retreat (flanks with lings), goes on the offense to at least prevent a 3rd, or just transitions properly. I remember older games where Leenock goes hydra to basically FORCE colossi and then transitions out to something like roach/corruptor and wins pretty easily. It seems that most games where I see Z go hydra and lose, they don't transition out properly or they overbuild. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:21 Defenestrator wrote: See this post on previous page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647¤tpage=12#226 Does anyone have replays/VODs of toss retreating vs hydra if they see it and teching to colossi? I have a hard time believing this is viable if Zerg either doesn't let toss retreat (flanks with lings), goes on the offense to at least prevent a 3rd, or just transitions properly. I remember older games where Leenock goes hydra to basically FORCE colossi and then transitions out to something like roach/corruptor and wins pretty easily. It seems that most games where I see Z go hydra and lose, they don't transition out properly or they overbuild. I believe Zenio used to do safety hdyra den type stuff a while ago but he's stopped; there might be something in his TL replay packs. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
Creator vs Sen on Ohana from WCS Asia, Hits at 10:20 with 2 Immortals CJherO vs Ian on Ohana from WCS Asia, With initial Warp Prism Sentry harass. Hits at 9:40 with 2 Immortals | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 03:12 monk. wrote: Here's 2 games where Zerg tries to defend with Ling/Hydra and the Protoss still just barrels through. Creator vs Sen on Ohana from WCS Asia, Hits at 10:20 with 2 Immortals CJherO vs Ian on Ohana from WCS Asia, With initial Warp Prism Sentry harass. Hits at 9:40 with 2 Immortals Thanks for these =) In both games the creep spread was mediocre, in the second hydras were not on the field in time to do anything. The first game is a pretty decent example though; however Sen make a couple of mistakes that I felt cost him, one is he took 6 gas and overcommited to hydra, slightly overdroned (he lost these drones in the first engagement), and didn't really attempt to flank (along with poor creep spread). Hydras without shielding are pretty bad. Also when someone is bearing down on you and has the advantage I feel like range comes too late to help; the 150/150 is probably better spent on units, despite what the casters said. Vs someone like creator I would think flanking and creep spread are of primary importance. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
- Rushing to infestors. - Make a tons of ling once you know he goes for Immo sentry all in. Lings lings only lings. Inject. Lings. - He cant go out until he as a valid ball to fight over 9000 zerglings - But when he goes out it's too late : you have 4-6 infestors. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Skipping roaches also opens up more problems for Zerg, specifically you can't defend any kind of +1 zealot pressure either before going robo or with a warp prism cost effectively. I've seen San outright kill a Zerg's third with just a warp prism, 2 sentires and 4gates woth of zealots because the Zerg was being greedy and trying to outright skip roaches vs a robo openig. It can work well vs just a straight up immortal all-in (especially if it's fairly delayed), but i don't think it's a solid long-term solution to it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Skipping roaches also opens up more problems for Zerg, specifically you can't defend any kind of +1 zealot pressure either before going robo or with a warp prism cost effectively. I've seen San outright kill a Zerg's third with just a warp prism, 2 sentires and 4gates woth of zealots because the Zerg was being greedy and trying to outright skip roaches vs a robo openig You can hold such pressure with lots and lots of speedlings. Obviously roaches are stronger, but if you've been pumping a ton of speedlings from 8:00, you can hold such pressure. Spines and a roach warren can help. This is just speaking from my personal experience when I go fast muta vs robo openers, and they do a warp prism attack instead of immortal/sentry all-in or robo expand. That's why when I go quick mutas, I pump lings from 8:30+ no matter what it seems like Toss is doing with his robo opener. I don't know the answer to immortal/sentry but quick muta has worked well for me on ladder. Not as quick as nestea but I'll try to reactively get quicker gases, spire, and cut out roaches and evo chamber if i see robo. You can get tech out in time, like infestors, if your willing to sacrifice your third and/or make lots of spines. But I just don't see massing spines or losing your third worthwhile just to get hydras or infestors out, but i do think its worthwhile with mutas. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 11 2012 11:33 kcdc wrote: I don't play Zerg, but if I did, I'd be trying all kinds of different options to make hydras defend this push. It seems like the problem is that you can't actually hit anything because you're constantly forcefielded out of range. Hydras seem like they should be a solution, but I know there are problems with the timing window and the suckiness of the hydra's stats. Still, I have a hunch that you could make it work if you ironed out a gameplan really well. Yea, but even if that did work, it would raise the problem of a mid-game plan versus a Protoss who fakes an all-in or who retreats. For example, Rain took two games off of DRG in the OSL finals just by faking the immortal all-in. Funnily enough, this forces the Zerg to make Roaches, which opens up some powerful 3-base immortal/stalker/sentry timings. I honestly suspect Blizzard will buff the Hydralisk because of this all-in. After all, they buffed an underused unit(the Immortal) when Protoss were having problems defending the 1-1-1 from Terran, which shares so many characteristics with this push in PvZ. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On November 11 2012 11:42 monk. wrote: I honestly suspect Blizzard will buff the Hydralisk because of this all-in. After all, they buffed an underused unit(the Immortal) when Protoss were having problems defending the 1-1-1 from Terran, which shares so many characteristics with this push in PvZ. Well honestly what I've been doing is taking one gas @5:00, starting quick lair with that @54/54 and then taking 3 other gasses when the lair is 30-40 percent done. I throw down a roach warren and one evo @7:30 unless you scout early pressure. When the lair pops I throw down a hydra-den and then a spire, one after the other. I am still working on figuring out the timings on this and you have to be very, VERY top-notch on your injects if you want to get all the standard benchmarks. I am now consistently able to get around 76 supply at 8 with a macro hatch, though I have to cut the creep queen (going to see where I can fit that in). What I have been doing is - if the P does an allin then I just pump out around 9 hydras and then mass lings, and then grab my gasses @ my third anyhow and make mutas along with the extra hydras (I dunno sometimes I will make more hydras but I feel like around 9-10 is about how many I feel comfortable with). I make sure to poop creep @his third as soon as the lair pops so that if he does just pull back and expand I can see it, take a 4th and transition into mass muta/ling/bane w/ a maxed timing @12/13. Just something like that has been working well for me. I love playing a Sauron-zerg style much more than the current herpa-derpa bullshit. I am making more adjustments and am ironing out the build in YABOT, probably work on it more today... | ||
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thepuppyassassin
900 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I opened 11 overpool because I took so much damage from pylon blocks in the previous games  FPVODs are cool, much more so than replays. Anyways, here's the replay in case you don't wanna watch my FPVOD: http://drop.sc/274284 Despite being horridly out of position and forgetting ling speed (foreverbronze I know), I still defend. Mutas are great because they can't be forcefielded, so even if they suck you at least get some damage in. Also mutas are unaffected by immortals, so it's basically a delayed 7gate with sentries. Sounds like an easy defense, right? I feel like at least one evo chamber is a good idea; there's plenty of time for +1/(+1). I dunno, I think fast mutas are a great idea ZvP. Maybe I only think this because it's the only game I won today, whatever. Edit: If the sentry/immortal is like the 1/1/1, then Nestea's fast mutalisk build is like HerO/MC's (not sure) fast phoenix opener :D | ||
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Keilkan
Denmark67 Posts
More often than not however, I do a hatch block onto my opponents natural. This means I can get away with teching on two bases longer than I normally would, only to double expand when my mutalisks start harassing. It is extremely rare that I meet any protoss that find a way to stabilise before the muta pack is too large for stalkers to deal with, resulting in easy GG's. If it looks like he stabilises, its just a matter of knowing when to techswitch. Assuming you do it right, you can be maxed on roaches/infestors at 16 min with a greater spire on the way and 5-6 bases to support it. I don't know if its just me, but it feels like that IF you manage to get down a hatch block you're already countering FFE, regardless of what response the Protoss might do. EDIT: If the opponent goes for a 7gate blink-allin holding can be somewhat tricky. If you manage to sniff it out in time and can get +1 armor on the lings, you'll have a much easier time defending. The rest is just getting out a critically large muta flock so his blink-micro doesn't keep every single stalker alive while all your lings die. Overwhelm his first warpin and you're golden, else you'll probably die. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
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