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On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
I actually totally forgot about this. I don't even think this needs a double roach warren because that would cost a bit too much and if scouted will just force the toss to defend and take a little later 3rd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the Immortal/Sentry all-in Parting does he doesn't use an obs. If that is the case then burrow roaches "might" work. And if they do get an observer maybe by that time our production is actually good enough to stop it. Again this is assuming Parting's style has no obs (I didn't even think to check about on obs in his game vs. Losira, but I think he didn't).
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On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote:
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
I think this says a lot about game balance and relative skill it takes to play the races.
Protoss can just FFE, do immortal all in without even having to adjust to watch zerg does, brainlessly follow a build order because it's easy and don't have to worry about any real harasses. Then protoss players think this is "perfect play". Maybe it is perfect play because protoss is that much easier to play.
The protoss player then has a sense of entitlement because no zerg plays 'even close to perfect'. Yeah it's because zerg is much harder to play when facing this strategy whereas Protoss just mindlessly follows the build order and auto wins. No pro zerg has figured out a solution to this build, there's a reason for that. Also, sorry but your "perfect" forcefields are actually a reflection of how broken this build is, protoss already has such an advantage, forcefields just rape even harder.
Fix this blizzard
User was warned for this post
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On October 29 2012 01:06 Mavvie wrote:Baserace can still work. If you spine your natural instead of your main, it's then 2 base vs 1 where your lair tech is done. Mutas, anyone? 
Yeah Immortals and Zealots cares a lot about spine crawler wall ...:D
Seriously, its just 1 zealots warp in and A-move into spine forrest and spines died very quickly
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On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
I have tried you just don't have the roach count when it matters. If you can surprise them maybe but the amount of roaches you have when he goes at 9-10 min just isn't enough especially if you didn't know the all in was coming.
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Just want to say I've faced this build many times and I've only beaten it when they make a major mistake. I'm a top 8 Diamond Zerg with 200+ APM and yesterday I lost to a mid gold player in a custom game that did this build. Even a gold player can make the buildings at the right time and just a move and spam FF. I scouted it very early (saw the robo being built) and made nothing but units off of 73 drones. Still lost handily even with 5 spines at my third and harassing his army from the second he left his base. Keep in mind I regularly beat top diamond/low master Z/T/P in normal macro games. If this build is so incredibly easy a gold player has no problem learning it in two hours and then can take games from High Diamond/Low Masters players, it's a joke and is absolutely no different from the Terran 1/1/1 that Protoss cried about for so long and got nerfed.
I have a friend that is a mid gold Zerg I'm going to teach this build to tonight and I'll post replays of him beating myself and some high masters friends with it. If you can learn it in a few hours and can beat people 2+ leagues higher than you, it's not skill and it's certainly not starcraft.
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it does seem problematic; though i should note that it's also a highly optimized build, most counterbuild attempts haven't had nearly as much refinement put into them as this build has.
Balancing would go better if blizz addressed core issues sooner, rather than dancing around the issue; forcefields have been trouble from day 1, warpgate too.
Is there a list of alternate strats that have been tried to counter this?
Have you tried smaller drone counts nefarious? how does burrow work in terms of buying time for more tech to come out?
I'm not a great player mechanically, but i'm good at analyzing strats, i'd love to talk to people about possible counters.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
and made nothing but units off of 73 drones
There's your problem. Toss has 44 probes. If you had time to drone to 73, it was either not anywhere near a standard immortal all in (with a move out at or just before the 9 minute mark and an engagement around 10) and you misread it completely and played badly, or you droned to 73 and are complaining that you failed to defeat a 44-worker all in which hit before you built a significant army.
If he's not engaging you at these sharp timings or overprobes a bunch, then the reaction you need is completely different, and its not textbook immortal all in, its a slow and weird immortal push that you should be reacting to differently and correctly.
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^Yeah. MrLlama defends it with a 50 drone ling/bane sorta thing, seems smart. Mass ling/bane if he moves out at 9:00, otherwise drone up and get infestors. Seems pretty legit, might try it. Often Protoss's forcefields aren't perfect, but they're good enough to deal with roach/ling. However if the lings explode and eliminate all traces of sentries instantaneously, it might be a good idea. I'll probably have to try it out more. I'm not adding content to the OP because I'm personally not totally convinced about these methods. If someone writes out a post outlining the method, and has masters+ level replays to back it up, I'll definitely add it. But I can't even trust my own skill level; I thought hydras were viable 
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"Has Life, your teammate, been able to stop your Immortal rushes?
In practice matches, I've performed around 70 Immortal timing attacks, and I have never seen anyone block one. There are no Zergs who can defend against my Immortal rush in Wings of Liberty. If a Zerg player ever comes out who can stop my attack, he will be able to beat me.
Numerous people have wanted to learn the secret to my Immortal attacks, but even if you check out my VODs, you won't be able to find out. If I manage to win the Code S championship, I will reveal the secret to my Immortal rush, so if there are any other Protosses who want to know, they'll have to cheer for me to win."
looks like we can close this thread now
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On October 29 2012 06:36 LonelyClock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight? I actually totally forgot about this. I don't even think this needs a double roach warren because that would cost a bit too much and if scouted will just force the toss to defend and take a little later 3rd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the Immortal/Sentry all-in Parting does he doesn't use an obs. If that is the case then burrow roaches "might" work. And if they do get an observer maybe by that time our production is actually good enough to stop it. Again this is assuming Parting's style has no obs (I didn't even think to check about on obs in his game vs. Losira, but I think he didn't).
Parting builds observer after Warp Prism. So your burrow won't work for long.
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Cool, I was watching a GM Protoss's stream and he did a decent sentry/immortal all-in (he's still learning the build, but it was okay with a 9:20ish moveout)
+ Show Spoiler +
Replay: http://drop.sc/268967
Basically Zerg cuts drones at 55 (he had bad early game macro surprisingly, so I imagine you could go up to ~60 if you don't get a 6:30 roach warren against a fast natural gas...)
Mass roach/ling from 7:30 and he sorta just overran Protoss, despite okay forcefields.
Do you guys think this is viable? If you misread and he takes a third then you basically lose, but it is a great way to win against the all-in. With a better timed flank, etc, it would've been even more one-sided (it was really close in game). He has so few drones that he doesn't need a macro hatch or anything. Mass units work out okay, and if he played more economical (later roach warren, faster lair, a few more drones) it would crush the all-in for sure.
It seems interesting; I've never seen someone stop at a mere 53 drones and massing units off 3 bases.
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On October 30 2012 05:32 Mavvie wrote:Cool, I was watching a GM Protoss's stream and he did a decent sentry/immortal all-in (he's still learning the build, but it was okay with a 9:20ish moveout) + Show Spoiler +Replay: http://drop.sc/268967Basically Zerg cuts drones at 55 (he had bad early game macro surprisingly, so I imagine you could go up to ~60 if you don't get a 6:30 roach warren against a fast natural gas...) Mass roach/ling from 7:30 and he sorta just overran Protoss, despite okay forcefields. Do you guys think this is viable? If you misread and he takes a third then you basically lose, but it is a great way to win against the all-in. With a better timed flank, etc, it would've been even more one-sided (it was really close in game). He has so few drones that he doesn't need a macro hatch or anything. Mass units work out okay, and if he played more economical (later roach warren, faster lair, a few more drones) it would crush the all-in for sure. It seems interesting; I've never seen someone stop at a mere 53 drones and massing units off 3 bases.
not particularly strong play by either but well, you're not in the GSL either, so
yes, this is the way to beat the all-in.
misread in what way? unless he sets out to trick you (and well, even top level pros get baited now and then with a troll build), you should be able to drone up quickly afterwards if he doesn't attack for whatever reason - not like he will have many probes anyways.
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On October 29 2012 09:26 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Just want to say I've faced this build many times and I've only beaten it when they make a major mistake. I'm a top 8 Diamond Zerg with 200+ APM and yesterday I lost to a mid gold player in a custom game that did this build. Even a gold player can make the buildings at the right time and just a move and spam FF. I scouted it very early (saw the robo being built) and made nothing but units off of 73 drones. Still lost handily even with 5 spines at my third and harassing his army from the second he left his base. Keep in mind I regularly beat top diamond/low master Z/T/P in normal macro games. If this build is so incredibly easy a gold player has no problem learning it in two hours and then can take games from High Diamond/Low Masters players, it's a joke and is absolutely no different from the Terran 1/1/1 that Protoss cried about for so long and got nerfed.
I have a friend that is a mid gold Zerg I'm going to teach this build to tonight and I'll post replays of him beating myself and some high masters friends with it. If you can learn it in a few hours and can beat people 2+ leagues higher than you, it's not skill and it's certainly not starcraft.
The best answer is probably infestors. We need to find a way to have 3/4 fungles when the protoss army arrives on your 3rd. If you manage to fungle the sentries, its won.
If we go lair before speed, we can get :
- 6:00 double gas = 7:00 starting lair = 8:20 starting infestor pit = 9:10 starting glands = 9:40 starting first infestors = 10:30 infestors with fungle.
It seems that we can get infestors for the time the all in hit, right ?
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On October 30 2012 21:45 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 05:32 Mavvie wrote:Cool, I was watching a GM Protoss's stream and he did a decent sentry/immortal all-in (he's still learning the build, but it was okay with a 9:20ish moveout) + Show Spoiler +Replay: http://drop.sc/268967Basically Zerg cuts drones at 55 (he had bad early game macro surprisingly, so I imagine you could go up to ~60 if you don't get a 6:30 roach warren against a fast natural gas...) Mass roach/ling from 7:30 and he sorta just overran Protoss, despite okay forcefields. Do you guys think this is viable? If you misread and he takes a third then you basically lose, but it is a great way to win against the all-in. With a better timed flank, etc, it would've been even more one-sided (it was really close in game). He has so few drones that he doesn't need a macro hatch or anything. Mass units work out okay, and if he played more economical (later roach warren, faster lair, a few more drones) it would crush the all-in for sure. It seems interesting; I've never seen someone stop at a mere 53 drones and massing units off 3 bases. not particularly strong play by either but well, you're not in the GSL either, so yes, this is the way to beat the all-in. misread in what way? unless he sets out to trick you (and well, even top level pros get baited now and then with a troll build), you should be able to drone up quickly afterwards if he doesn't attack for whatever reason - not like he will have many probes anyways.
Misread as in he goes for a 4-5gate robo expand instead of 7gate all in. I guess if you see no obs and a delayed +1 those are telltale signs, but I can totally see misreads happening. I guess it's decent, but not worth cutting lair tech.
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I experienced my first sentry immortal all in last night on ladder and got crushed. I'm glad I found this thread.
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Dear TLNerds! and Mavvie!
I have been reading through this thread a lot recently, to see what my peers (belial, Blade, Chaos, ect) are doing these days vs protoss, and the immortal cent. all in.
When Belial said that you can not get bane rain in time for the all in 10:30+, it struck a cord in me.
I mean, was this true? I am one of those guys that wont believe it unless I see it with my own eyes.
So off to my smurf for a weeks worth of tests in zvp.
In result, I could not get bane rain ready in time for a fast immortal cent all in. However, I could for a later one, 11:30+
This is just too coin flippy for me.
so in result, you can NOT get bane drops ready for all immortal all ins when you open up 3 gasless 3 base style.
So this lead me to another question. Can one open up with any build with mid game bane drops, and still be able to have a strong enough economy for the late game?
so back to my smurf acc, for even more tests.
and in result, I have 3 replays from today.
This build was basically made up on the fly for all games. It is pretty close to standard zvz opening.
Enjoy
Vs Immortal push into late game
http://drop.sc/269466
Vs two base all in fake out into quick Third
http://drop.sc/269468
Just a mess of a game into late game
http://drop.sc/269469
I hope you enjoy these replays.
Final thoughts. This style requires higher APM, and good mechanics. Can be VERY unforgiving if you mess up.
Cheers!
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is it worth it to get borrow and tunneling claws early since they will finish before the observer arrive and that can give us an advantage over the sentries ?
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As stated before, the observer comes after the warp prism, so it may delay the push by a few seconds, but nothing enough to deal with it effectively. And if you want to say to burrow the roaches under the forcefields while being shot by immortals, I think you may have to re-evaluate your though process.
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On October 29 2012 09:07 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:52 Oboeman wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight? I have tried you just don't have the roach count when it matters. If you can surprise them maybe but the amount of roaches you have when he goes at 9-10 min just isn't enough especially if you didn't know the all in was coming.
Ok thanks. That was the impression I had, but didn't want to dismiss it without seeing or trying.
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I really appreciate your effort BuiBui, I'll be sure to check out these replays. Just curious, what level are you? You seem pretty high level.
@ahmedaak88 it's an idea, but here's some mental math (ie. gasless 3 hatch won't work):
-Lair starts at 7:20 usually
-Lair takes 80 seconds. Lair finish is 8:40
-Tunneling claws takes about 2 minutes... so it's about 10:30.
I dunno, I guess it would finish in time. You could get it if you want, it would help.
Edit: Yeah I guess it hurts your roach count. I guess it isn't viable.
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EPT
