On October 27 2012 04:37 BigDates wrote: As useless as hydras are, they counter sentry immortal well. You'll easily be able to scout this by just sending lings in (either up the ramp, or if they take their nat, straight into the nat). If you see ~50% of sentries or more in the army and you know they have a robo, may as well just tech hydras, and then go for a spire after. (the hydralisks deal more dps than the mutalisks, and are going to do far more damage vs the sentries (10 damage instead of a mutalisks 7, with a faster attack speed) And then once you defend the push you can expand, and then start the spire for the possibility of collosus coming out.
On October 26 2012 03:59 doggy wrote: why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors. times
The protoss will have expanded by 9:30. If they havent, then you'll be able to defend against this attack even easier. Dumping a bunch of spines and massing roaches against mass immorals is about the least intelligent thing you can do. It takes 10 spine crawler hits to just take down the sheilds of a single immortal, as an immortal can trounce through the defences, not to mention you can work your way at a certain angle to minimize the damage the immortals take. You will lose the base trade in this case, even with lings at your nat (sentries just ff lings, lings = useless)
Reading is difficult, isnt it? You will never engage the immortal based army with your roaches, as i mentioned, you even quoted it. If they scout you going for hydras, they can just get their third slightly later and go for a 3 base colossi timing which will most likely rape you. The Spinecrawlers are also not there to kill the immortals. nor the lings - as i mentioned, theyre just - combined with queens, and maybe some drone buffer, your buying time method while your infestors are building.
And btw, no, hydras DONT counter a immo sentry push well. They only do if P screws his forcefields up. You can zone out hydras pretty well, even with the range upgrade. Maybe opinions are different on that, but i bet that everyone is sure about infestors being better (especially vs gateway immo armys) instead of hydras. I played this counterattack strategy my last 20 zvps and NEVER have lost to this push. It doesnt matter how its executed or how good the Protoss is. And btw, if you would have any idea how the game works you wouldnt be a platinum league player. Im pretty sure that you dont have the understanding to give any advice to higher level play
Why are you being so rude?
Everything he said is true. As I'm sure you know, a standard sentry/immo timing doesn't get an observer until after 3 immortals and a warp prism. He actually can't "scout hydras" and then reactively take a third. He'll find out you're going hydras when his army gets sandwiched by ling/hydra and all dies.
I'm not saying hydras are the best way to counter sentry/immortal. They aren't. But they seem to be the only way to engage it head-on, and the timings just work SO well for it.
I'll definitely try out the spine/queen/ling to buy time for infestors, but I don't see it as viable. It takes 3 fungals to kill a sentry clump, so that's 600 gas (pathogen glands is 150 I think). 600 gas is also 12 hydras, and 12 hydras aren't useless once they cast their one spell.
It doesn't have to be your favourite method, but it works and you can't run around saying it doesn't.
Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
On October 28 2012 05:18 LonelyClock wrote: Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
That is...insanely confident. It kinda explains why there is no definite answer in this thread. If guys Parting practice against can't come up with a good answer, it's even harder for us.
Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
On October 28 2012 05:18 LonelyClock wrote: Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
That is...insanely confident. It kinda explains why there is no definite answer in this thread. If guys Parting practice against can't come up with a good answer, it's even harder for us.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
when a top protoss like parting says he almost never loses to his teammates using immortalsentry (yes, LIFE, the GSL champion is his teammate), you have to realize its either that nobody has found the counter, or it geniunely is impossible to hold
Before you guys panic too much remember that this is an extremely difficult all-in to pull off. Even top protosses like MC and Rain have lost games trying to do it. Your average ladder protoss is not going to be able to do perfect FFs, juggle immortals and warp-in units at the same time the way Parting does. Heck the vast majority of ladder protosses won't even be able to get the units out as fast as Parting does.
On October 28 2012 05:18 LonelyClock wrote: Seeing how Parting said he did the build about 70 times and no zerg has stopped him means most likely that all the zerg that he faces haven't tried something yet or the build is actually not suppose to fail unless the toss messes up. I don't like to think that's true, but until someone defends his immortal sentry all-in and is ahead or even, i guess we have to require the toss to mess up. The only thing I see possibly working is base trade and nydus his main while sacrificing your 3rd and nat and spinning up your main while taking out both of their bases.
That is...insanely confident. It kinda explains why there is no definite answer in this thread. If guys Parting practice against can't come up with a good answer, it's even harder for us.
no, you cant stop parting's wonwonwon (immortal sentry), because he has too much soul, in order to defend, you need more soul.
on a more serios note, there has to be a counter to this, nothing is unstoppable, nobody has found the counter yet tho
Then why did blizzard buff the immortal to deal with the 1-1-1? Surely, that wasn't impossible to hold either. Yes, the toss does have to land good force fields. But it still seems a lot easier to execute than to defend. Which is a problem.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
when a top protoss like parting says he almost never loses to his teammates using immortalsentry (yes, LIFE, the GSL champion is his teammate), you have to realize its either that nobody has found the counter, or it geniunely is impossible to hold
I think he is bluffing. If you see Rain vs DRG games you will know why there is reason to bluff
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
Because protoss whined so much about 1-1-1 that they got a immortal buff. So zergs are now whining and hoping they can get a buff. I am sure most of the terrans felt they have to play the 1-1-1 perfectly and toss on ladder didn't play close to perfect either.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
when a top protoss like parting says he almost never loses to his teammates using immortalsentry (yes, LIFE, the GSL champion is his teammate), you have to realize its either that nobody has found the counter, or it geniunely is impossible to hold
I think he is bluffing. If you see Rain vs DRG games you will know why there is reason to bluff
Yeah, but Rain's version has less soul. Honestly, there is a problem when PartinG uses this pretty much EVERY game against zerg now.
On October 28 2012 18:46 pprrii wrote: Played that push about 300 times (~top 50 overall master EU). I want to say its not imba, but the only way to defend is perfect BO from zerg player. Basically you need to play Stephano style with 61, maybe 58 drones or something like that and split your army.
You cant win with basetrade, you cant win with nydus, I dont even talk about hydras, its a joke. Basetrade works only against slow immortal push or bad BO from protoss player.
I think its fair stratagy, im as protoss play absolutly perfect, so why i should lose after that? I dont face any zerg on ladder who play even close to perfect. No need to whine
I agree so, so, so much about the ~60 drones part. I feel like I kill myself nearly every game by going to 75.
You can win with basetrade, I'm not sure about Nydus though. Hydras might be viable, but honestly I can't get it to work against a high level opponent. I feel that, again, if I cut drones at 65 I would be able to hold though.
I don't think it's fair at all. If I can fucking offrace and move out at 8:55, despite almost never playing Protoss, it's not really difficult to execute. Gasless 3 hatch is pretty easy too (though a little harder IMO, not much though), but nothing I do can stop MY OWN sentry/immortal all-in. Attacking the third before 10:00 is crazy. I'll have, like, 10 roaches and 20 lings? Yeah that'll work. It hits before tech, it hits before production, I honestly think that the only way to stop it is either with a full on baserace or with ~5 spines at third and 5 at natural. You can't attack into a spine forest, but even this won't work on most maps.
The problem with the all-in isn't macro. It isn't the immortals. It isn't the upgrades, the warp prism, anything. The reason that it's so strong is forcefields. A wise man once said, "Forcefield good unit." On some maps you can just abuse the shit out of the terrain - take Antiga, Cloud, Shakuras, TDA (I don't play on it, but it would be strong IMO). I played against MVPTAiLS once in a tourney, I saw his 2 immortals and 9 sentries and was like "lol, get fucked" and dove in with a triple flank of mass roach/ling...didn't matter because his forcefields were so good that I could've been maxed and I wouldn't have killed a single of his 11 units.
I'm not claiming "imbalance" per se, I'm just saying it's a shitload easier to execute than to defend, and it's really probably impossible to defend (see ST_PartinG interview).
Just to add to that, you can't even baserace against PartinG; he sets up a secondary wall at the top of his ramp.
Just to add to that, you can't even baserace against PartinG; he sets up a secondary wall at the top of his ramp.
Like i do. Thats why basetrade is not working against this. Then just warpin some sentry Also i prefer less sentry, more zealots, because most of zerg players now make a lot of zerglings.
I kinda don't want to watch a full daily on what I think is useless against a good Protoss. It's like a regular baserace, just slightly different (mainly you spine your main instead of natural, which is WAY worse). High ground wall + sentries from Protoss and it's 1 base vs 1 base, so you lose...
I've recently played a few people that wait till right before they move out to put down 3-4 more gates so it looks like they are expanding it is just ridiculous unless you are planning for it 100% you don't even have a chance to hold still.
Does anyone have any experience with going tunneling claws first against this?
Or even double roach warren?
I haven't tried it, nor seen it tried. 3 immortals will still own your roaches very quickly, but does it let you get a good trade (ie kill sentries) in the first fight?
EPT
