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On October 23 2012 03:11 Bellazuk wrote:
My most effective build in ZvP is 2 base ling hydra. Why ? because it requires the protoss to exactly scout it at the right time and go fast colo. If you scout hes going fast colo means he will lack mobility and units to pressure you from taking a 3rd. In that situation I chose to go mutas and if I see him going heavily on stalkers and colo then I'll go corruptor instead of mutas and roach. 2 base hydra ling timing will come sooner than any protoss rushing colo, so you will kill most likely his sentrys, his core, few zealots and stalkers while u expend and go for mutas. It's not standard and as it's not standard thats what makes it very good. I'm playing top master level.
Its totally lame, abusing the lack of scouting capabilities that the protoss race has... i dont like it very much 
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On October 23 2012 03:11 Bellazuk wrote:
My most effective build in ZvP is 2 base ling hydra. Why ? because it requires the protoss to exactly scout it at the right time and go fast colo. If you scout hes going fast colo means he will lack mobility and units to pressure you from taking a 3rd. In that situation I chose to go mutas and if I see him going heavily on stalkers and colo then I'll go corruptor instead of mutas and roach. 2 base hydra ling timing will come sooner than any protoss rushing colo, so you will kill most likely his sentrys, his core, few zealots and stalkers while u expend and go for mutas. It's not standard and as it's not standard thats what makes it very good. I'm playing top master level.
With all due respect, I can't imagine a build like that ever working at even a mid masters level.
What does 2 base ling hydra do? It hard counters every 2 base all in (except 2 base colossus all in I guess). Cool. If he scouts your super late third and the # of hydras he really should just take a third once he gets AoE, preferably colossi, while camping his natural behind sentries + cannons. You won't be able to break up the ramp, and you set your economy, upgrades, and other tech super far behind.
Hydra/ling is the answer to immortal/sentry, but not off of 2 bases.
Here's some theorycrafting:
Stephano gas timings starts lair ~7:20
Lair takes 80 seconds, so we're at 8:40 by the time lair finishes
Hydra den takes 40, so 9:20 is when we can make hydralisks + get the upgrade
Hydralisks take 30 seconds + travel time, so we'll definitely have hydras ready to fight at 10:00, which is when the fastest immo/sentry timing can hit you. Fuck yeah, it's like Stephano knows what he's doing.
Assuming you get the hydralisk upgrade as soon as the den pops (it takes 80 seconds), it'll be finished at 10:45ish (nobody's macro is perfect).
So you can get hydras out in time, range will finish in time to be useful. No need to do this on 2 bases.
I think that +1 upgrades can be finished in time if you start them early.
I'm considering 2x gas at 6:00 followed by another 7:00 2x gas to get up to 4 quickly enough to afford hydra range, lair, ling speed, and hydras.
Really, I think this is the way to beat it.
My thoughts on nydus: It's the same thing as baseracing, except you're investing at least 200/200 for a way to reinforce quicker and get back home to defend almost instantly. Not worth it IMO, a heavily spined natural + reinforcing lings should do the trick. 2 base vs 1 Zerg wins, especially considering that Protoss will lose a lot of tech structures even if he perma-forcefields the main.
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I'm not convinced hydra range is necessary to hold. Hydras have a lot higher dps and more range than roaches even without the upgrade; I've seen a mid-masters replay of hydra/ling vs sentry/immo without range owning it pretty hard (he was researching drop, a 300/300 investment, and still held easily). I still need to toy around with this but I've been thinking about going standard ling/roach and then going reactive hydras (putting a hydra den down after lair, only 100/100, and building hydras only if I see the allin). Even 5-6 hydras can make a huge difference vs this push, and they don't require energy and have sustained dps (unlike infestors). Also, there's no long-range AOE so as long as you have something shielding them and they're staying alive, they're pretty darned good.
My experience with hydra also tells me 15 is a little high considering the gas investment; 8-10 with roach/ling support seems better for a longer game or if he waits for colossi, and shouldn't make too big of a difference in actually holding the push.
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TLO defeated Mana's 2base immortal all in last month with some pretty creative play... Upon scouting the 2base all in, he decided to sack his 3rd and nat, built a ton of spines at the top of his main's ramp, and base raced using nydus. Risky and gimicky but if you can get the nydus up it looks very hard for toss to defend.
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Yeah, hydra range isn't necessary. But it helps, so it's worth it. I guess, but you have to keep in mind they're all in. It transitions well into roach/ling/infestor to deny his third (which is 10000x better than a roach/ling max, and nowhere near as all in).
I don't like nydus play. It's a big investment for something that you can do anyways. I'm sure it works, but why would you sac the third AND natural? Just go 10 roaches rest lings so you have gas for nydus, only 3/4 gas, all drones at third turn into spines at natural. ezpz. Then it's 2 base vs 1 and you win.
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I'm not too sure that the nydus solution can really become a solid answer to play again and again against 2 base immortals: it was indeed and excellent choice by TLO, but most probably because it took his opponent by surprise, and he didn't react correctly: wouldn't just one or two warp prism drops + warp in far from the spine forest kill the zerg main anyway (especially if they attack the nydus first, to avoid any possible quick defense) ?
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^couldnt agree more.
Also, whoever's seen the carbot animation 10 kinda knows just how good immortals are against spines and hatcheries.
It's just like a regular roach/ling baserace but slightly better, slightly more expensive, arguably riskier
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Yay I've stroked your brains with hydra/ling.
Right now what I've been doing is taking normal 2 gas @6 and then taking two more when the lair is halfway done and droning up...you build up a good gas bank and can get around 9-12 hydras against immo/sentry.
I find a very powerful attack is to keep building ling hydra until around 170 supply (12:15) and pushing out /denying third and just trading as much army as possible - it really sets the protoss back and it doesn't matter how much you lose as he can't attack you...you can remake your composition much faster than he can and it only takes around 10-12 hydras to be effective.
I've transitioned into a couple different things...
a. Muta/ling, wait until you have around 17-20 mutas and push his third (it really just outright kills him, you can have this by 14 minutes if you take the 9:00 fourth).
b. Hydra/ling/corruptor with drops (fun) - you can push with what hydras you have and around 6-8 corruptors and kill him.
c. Regular old infestor broodlord (boring wtf).
What I usually do after the timing push is muta ling...plant double evo, spire, and get 4th gas immediately, definitely 6th macro hatch. It's so easy to just overwhelm the protoss.
What I've done against delayed immortal/sentry pushes is just outright killed him. This is really weird as it is something that I have not done before (this whole mentality of being as aggressive as possible and trying to kill the toss instead of waiting for infestor/broodlord). It feels really strong but is something that I'm easing into. If protoss takes an earlier third...you can just kill him.
There's a lot of situations where protoss just gets overwhelmed by this ling/hydra. The trick is in making lings off of around 6 hatches...you can clean up whatever remnants remain even if you don't win the first engagement. I'm never going to build roaches anymore unless there's a 7gate (just get safety-net warren).
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On October 23 2012 05:39 Defenestrator wrote:
I'm not convinced hydra range is necessary to hold. Hydras have a lot higher dps and more range than roaches even without the upgrade; I've seen a mid-masters replay of hydra/ling vs sentry/immo without range owning it pretty hard (he was researching drop, a 300/300 investment, and still held easily). I still need to toy around with this but I've been thinking about going standard ling/roach and then going reactive hydras (putting a hydra den down after lair, only 100/100, and building hydras only if I see the allin). Even 5-6 hydras can make a huge difference vs this push, and they don't require energy and have sustained dps (unlike infestors). Also, there's no long-range AOE so as long as you have something shielding them and they're staying alive, they're pretty darned good.
My experience with hydra also tells me 15 is a little high considering the gas investment; 8-10 with roach/ling support seems better for a longer game or if he waits for colossi, and shouldn't make too big of a difference in actually holding the push.
Honestly I would just take out roaches completely. They are useless after 13 minutes, why would you keep them in your composition at all? Every roach I build seems like a wasted piece of crap . This hydra timing is amazing because it reacts well against standard play and any bullshit that the toss might do that you miss scouting (proxy double stargate).
Yeah you don't have to get range, but you might as well considering how powerful they are against today's meta. You can afford range, drop and ovie-speed if you cut evo upgrades until after the push is held and make sure to frontload around 8-12 hydras (not saying I do that but it is possible).
The thing that is different about this composition compared to roach ling is that you can straight up kill the protoss with range. It's really weird. Just have good ling control so you don't lose them behind a FF wall and make sure to lead in with the hydras (bring lings in front @ engage). If you can get a surround it's even better b/c the protoss is being battered to pieces and can't escape. It's such a power composition.
Ling roach is one of those compositions with a severe timer...@ 13 and after it just becomes useless, but with hydra range you can transition into a lot of different styles without the need for infestors to hold a push or be aggressive (as compared to roach/ling, which needs infestors if you want to do any sort of aggression, and even then most players don't and use it defensively...because it will just die).
While he switches to collosi you have a good window in time where you can get your tech of choice out (you can have it out by 14 or earlier) and hydras are not bad against 2 collosi. It's when the count gets to 3-4 that it is difficult for you to survive off of hydra/ling. But if you are aggressive as possible you can keep his ball to a minimum and deny his third, which is all that really matters.
It's really amazing against immo/sentry meta, which was designed to hold efficiently against roach/ling...it's pretty interesting how much the game has changed.
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On October 23 2012 08:09 Qwyn wrote:
It's really amazing against immo/sentry meta, which was designed to hold efficiently against roach/ling...it's pretty interesting how much the game has changed.
I find this pretty hilarious as well. Completely agree. Hydras went from good at the beginning to shit a little later (when toss meta was colossi-heavy) to pretty damned good again with the stalker/immo midgame. I definitely prefer hydra before infestor vs 2-base allins because they come out a lot faster, are not energy-dependent (infestors obviously get a lot better the more time that they're out), and require less gas.
I'm not very good with hydra/ling comps in general (I like the meaty roach shield) but I should toy around with it more.
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United States7483 Posts
Be aware if you are doing ling/hydra that it's bad on attack vs. sentry immortal, with good defensive positioning and building walls they can FF you out for weeks. Ling/hydra is good for defense, but it shouldn't be very useful if they use the immortal/sentry composition to take a third base.
Maybe throw down the hydra den and then not use it unless the attack moves out? It builds very quickly, and if you are going to skip range anyway, it seems like a decent investment.
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I appreciate the discussion and think it's really cool that all this experimentation has been going on!
In my humble opinion, I think that hydras are worthless. The only reason that they're better than infestors against sentry/immortal is because of the timing. Hydra is the /only/ lair tech that is fast enough to get out in time for the sentry/immortal timing, which is why it's the only one that's viable. Hydralisks are terrible; by the time you cross the map he can get a colossus out. They're good against sentry/immortal, but Protoss is only one tech upgrade away from making every hydralisk a waste of gas.
I'm not against a ling/hydra/infestor timing where, because of the previous investment, you replace roaches with hydras (ranged units to kill zealots and stalkers), but it would only work if they do a failed 2 base all in that forces you to make hydras.
I'd only make them if you need to in order to survive the 2 base timing.
Edit: Exactly what whitewing said 
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On October 23 2012 08:33 Whitewing wrote:
Be aware if you are doing ling/hydra that it's bad on attack vs. sentry immortal, with good defensive positioning and building walls they can FF you out for weeks. Ling/hydra is good for defense, but it shouldn't be very useful if they use the immortal/sentry composition to take a third base.
Maybe throw down the hydra den and then not use it unless the attack moves out?
Yeah I think this is a good idea, since it's only 100/100 you don't have to overcommit to hydras, because as we all know overcommitting to hydras is not a fun way to die =P
Roach/hydra can attack into a midgame toss army without too much problem. Due to the range, hydras (and roaches, to an extent) can just shoot over FF's in most scenarios. Attacking a toss at his nat and 3rd simultaneously with roach/hydra at least enables you to trade armies; you may not do so cost-effectively, but if you're preventing his 3rd you don't need to be that cost effective since you have a much better eco. Not as sure about hydra/ling; it depends on how much you let your lings get FF'd, pretty much.
Also when I've done made a safety hydra den in my games, toss players who see my hydra den with an observer first of all assume that I will:
1. automatically lose since I'm going hydra and
2. tend to overmake colossus (not the world's worst unit to overmake, but still).
Instead I just don't make any hydras and go about my business. It's worked out pretty well for me.
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Hmm that might be true but I only say that I am aggressive because I prefer to do something with the hydras instead of just leaving them....while I techswitch to muta. They can "FF me out for weeks" with their building wall but I'm also killing the wall and wasting FFs. ..and they can't really engage me until they get 2-3 collosi.
I'm not waiting to defend the allin anymore. I just straight up attack and kill it. Being aggressive with this comp requires some finess (you can't be a moron with ur lings) and obviously hydras are pretty damn slow, but the value in it is that it cleans up the allin and puts pressure back on the toss.
It's obviously a matter of reads...if you see him expand you cut hydra production. But as long as he is allining you they are amazing. And they aren't as bad as people make them out to be. They are slow, but this is manageable.
And yes their whole purpose is to stop the allin that's why I thought about using them in the first place  .
I'd much rather be doing ling/muta but they are a nice stepping stone to getting there uncontested off of 8 gas. I just have been experimenting with hydra aggression because it is something that NO ONE does because everone universally assumes that they are terrible (because, yes, in many cases they are) and I just don't think they are as bad here as people make them out to be. They have a place, now, at least for me. And I haven't even explored other options.
I can get to 177 hydra/ling @12:15 and can be knocking on the door of the third (while also saturating 4th base gas)before he has a collosi or range out (1 at most), and it shatters stalker immortal sentry. And considering the production you have @home it seems pretty damn strong. You should already have the spire planted and almost done @ this time, and as soon as you get the 4th base gas you can be doing ling/muta max and crack what's left of his army.
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I'm looking at the ling/bane counter, now, specifically (because that style is fucking fun!). I have a way to beat the allin consistently now in hydra/ling and I'm very pleased. It doesn't require silly basetrades, I don't have to cut drones at all, and I can be aggressive and straight up attack instead of constantly pulling back and losing to silly FF walls, bad egagements and other shit like that. Actually three times now I didn't even look/micro the engagement (lol) and I still came out just fine.
Now obviously against two base collosus timings this wouldn't be effective but that's a different read. I'm not suggesting to make hydras blindly, I'm saying that you can choose to be aggressive with them if you scout gateway-centric plays into 3rd, immo/sentry allins, and other weird shit (stargate >>), because if you have reasonably good macro you can get a strong supply army that is much more competent at dishing out damage than roach/ling ever will be.
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why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors.
If you somehow missread the situation and he goes for a fast third nexus, you have a bombastic eco and tech due the overdroning. You dont build the nydus or the spinewall before protoss moves out.
This works against high masters and GMs. TLO has also shown a similiar technique quite successfully in recent times
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^Yeah, I believe that I recommend that in the OP as the best way to deal with it.......just without nydus. it's a nice touch, but totally not required.
He can move out way before 9:30. 9:00 is standard move out time. On Ohana he can be hitting your third right at 10:00.
Baseracing is mentioned in the OP. It's the best, easiest solution. I'm just saying that hydras can be used to kill the push instead of being forced to baserace. Just get infestor pit + hydra den if you suspect sentry/immo. Start pathogen glands unless he moves out. If he moves out fast, make hydras. If he's delayed, make infestors. If he takes a third, make infestors + take a fourth. Easy.
No matter what, though, if you go past 70 drones you can't defend or baserace(without nydus). Stop at 65 really, for any tech-based 2 base all in. 8:00 macro hatch, bam.
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Of course he can move out at 9.00, but you need to consider that you will pump out a round of units no matter what before that time. So if he just moves out with 2-3 immortals and some sentries, without any support, you could basically directly engage him on the middle of the map. P needs the next Warpin to move out in that cases, so 9.30 is correct.
Btw, yea youre right about the 65 drones, but i didnt mention something different. 3 Bases: 3 x 16 + 3 x 6 = 66
I still dont see why you would go for hydras. Lets just consider the Ohana case, where its most difficult in my opinion to hold that push. If he really wants to push up your ramp and kill you at 10:00, he will definately lose his natural, and furthermore his main or at least crucial tech structurs in it, because he cant spend warpins at home to defend. You maybe wont have infestors out already, but you have at least 6-10 Spines with 4 Queens (4 Queens is standard going fast 3 hatch) at your natural holding, with some lings and maybe even some drones to buffer, while your infestors (~5+ of them) are almost spawned and your nydus is ready to maybe fall back with your roach ling if need be. There is no window for the Protoss.
If Protoss decides to kill your third - say thank you. You forced a 2 vs 1 base situation where you have all your tech structurs and a ton of infestors ready, against neither colossi nor templars
Hydras are just a terrible unit, you can achieve the same thing with infestors, just by getting more of them. I really dont feel like hydras have any place in zvt or zvp. In some situations they are good, youre right. But infestors will always be better - and dont forget, there are never too many infestors :-)
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As useless as hydras are, they counter sentry immortal well. You'll easily be able to scout this by just sending lings in (either up the ramp, or if they take their nat, straight into the nat). If you see ~50% of sentries or more in the army and you know they have a robo, may as well just tech hydras, and then go for a spire after. (the hydralisks deal more dps than the mutalisks, and are going to do far more damage vs the sentries (10 damage instead of a mutalisks 7, with a faster attack speed) And then once you defend the push you can expand, and then start the spire for the possibility of collosus coming out.
On October 26 2012 03:59 doggy wrote:
why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors.
times
The protoss will have expanded by 9:30. If they havent, then you'll be able to defend against this attack even easier. Dumping a bunch of spines and massing roaches against mass immorals is about the least intelligent thing you can do. It takes 10 spine crawler hits to just take down the sheilds of a single immortal, as an immortal can trounce through the defences, not to mention you can work your way at a certain angle to minimize the damage the immortals take. You will lose the base trade in this case, even with lings at your nat (sentries just ff lings, lings = useless)
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On October 27 2012 04:37 BigDates wrote:As useless as hydras are, they counter sentry immortal well. You'll easily be able to scout this by just sending lings in (either up the ramp, or if they take their nat, straight into the nat). If you see ~50% of sentries or more in the army and you know they have a robo, may as well just tech hydras, and then go for a spire after. (the hydralisks deal more dps than the mutalisks, and are going to do far more damage vs the sentries (10 damage instead of a mutalisks 7, with a faster attack speed) And then once you defend the push you can expand, and then start the spire for the possibility of collosus coming out. Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:59 doggy wrote:
why do you consider hydras as a solution?
the best way to counter a immortal sentry push is by counterattacking and nydus. you overdrone (saturate all three bases including gas) as soon as you see him going for a early robo. you reach that saturation by about 8.30-8.45. the earliest time he can move out is 9.30.
Then you go for a huge swing of roaches (~16) and lings to counterattack the protoss as soon as he commits to the attack. While that youre teching to infestors, getting a nydus and dumb all your minerals into spines at your natural. You move all the drones from the third to your natural, you just leave three in gas. You kill protoss natural with all his tech and rescue due the nydusworm to support your infestor spine holding your natural. Then you have 2 base vs 1 base. P is fucked and cant afford a colossi or anything else transition while youre massing up infestors.
times The protoss will have expanded by 9:30. If they havent, then you'll be able to defend against this attack even easier. Dumping a bunch of spines and massing roaches against mass immorals is about the least intelligent thing you can do. It takes 10 spine crawler hits to just take down the sheilds of a single immortal, as an immortal can trounce through the defences, not to mention you can work your way at a certain angle to minimize the damage the immortals take. You will lose the base trade in this case, even with lings at your nat (sentries just ff lings, lings = useless)
Reading is difficult, isnt it? You will never engage the immortal based army with your roaches, as i mentioned, you even quoted it. If they scout you going for hydras, they can just get their third slightly later and go for a 3 base colossi timing which will most likely rape you. The Spinecrawlers are also not there to kill the immortals. nor the lings - as i mentioned, theyre just - combined with queens, and maybe some drone buffer, your buying time method while your infestors are building.
And btw, no, hydras DONT counter a immo sentry push well. They only do if P screws his forcefields up. You can zone out hydras pretty well, even with the range upgrade. Maybe opinions are different on that, but i bet that everyone is sure about infestors being better (especially vs gateway immo armys) instead of hydras. I played this counterattack strategy my last 20 zvps and NEVER have lost to this push. It doesnt matter how its executed or how good the Protoss is. And btw, if you would have any idea how the game works you wouldnt be a platinum league player. Im pretty sure that you dont have the understanding to give any advice to higher level play
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I'm mid masters for reference and use spines, +1 melee lings from 4 hatches and infestors. The build I use to get there is the standard Stephano one, and it works fine so far.
Spines are actually awesome, you do have to spread creep in front of your third but it's worth it. Infestors come a bit too late most of the time but lings and spines are sufficient to buy time, plus the spines force the protoss to bunch up, which is perfect for fungals and +1 lings chew through everything once the protoss is out of forcefields.
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EPT
