A few weeks ago I experimented with going straight into a banenest and then banespeed the second my lair finished when i scouted/guessed this allin was coming. (its usually pretty obvious through the early sentry production and robo almost always at natural next to nexus),
At first I was toying with speedbanes in all matchups because I was dealing with massive delay but actually had massive success especially against this build. 3-way flank and they need to leave 0 gaps or risk losing all their sentries. Usually there's a gap and you just win. Alternately they spam most of their FF and on the 2nd wave there is a gap and you clear it out. It's still a narrow fight relying on the same control as roachling defense but I found it to be more reliable and more punishing on opponent's mistakes. Creep-spread is a massive bonus of course.
Sorry don't have any replays on the laptop I'm posting from. This was at high master KR and high gm NA though. Try it out if you like
Good guide, as a Gold league player, even if there are some debatable parts of the guide it was still useful.
Thing about these all-in pushes is that when Protoss players memorise the builds, they're super easy to execute if you aren't a complete spanner. You just have to be a massively better player overall to be able to stop them cold.
It's the same as the situation with the 12 min roachmax, Zergs memorised that build and it was difficult for Protoss to stop it. Protoss players just had to scout hard and be prepared for it, change up their builds.
Key to beating these all-ins in my opinion is to constantly be reading up on the metagame and scout hard. I feel like if I miss a little macro or micro the game isn't over however if I miss a key scout, I'm stuffed.
Thanks! Actually, it's a very hard build to execute perfectly. I'm considering throwing together a small [G] or [D] thread on how to execute it optimally. My first time in a custom game I was able to move out with 3 immortals and 9 sentries at 9:00 flat off a nexus first build, with 7 gates total finishing up, but I was lucky to barely dodge supply blocks and barely make gas timings.
You're generally right, but imo the Stephano-style roach max is easily defended....unless Zerg researches drops then IMO it's undefendable. It relies on forcefields to keep the roaches at bay, but big drops on the army make it pretty unstoppable. Ladder PvZ is free wins if they don't win with a 2base all in. I find on ladder roach drops also win vs Mech if I go mutas to force thors/no tanks.
I digress. Knowing the metagame is important, scouting is important, knowing how to react is even more important. I feel the other way around, but that's because I usually scout obsessively. There's no reason to not know the exact second he takes each geyser, plants down each building, including his expansions and tech choices. 200 minerals and you're guaranteed to scout everything. However, if you do miss a scout, you will lose. You just shouldn't
AFAIK, no gas at natural @ 6:30 means either +1 zealot pressure or all-in, 1 gas is either blink, DTs, stargate, or some kind of robo expand, and 4 gas is a tech-heavy 2-base all-in, on ladder this usually means sentry/immortal. In my experience, 6:45 is the better timing if they opened forge-first (not nexus first), because of worse mechanics and gameplay at my level.
Not wrong
I've noticed that there's actually no real guide on doing immortal/sentry, just some shitty +1/+1 variation that hits way late.
Edit: I've been playing around in practice games, and honestly DIMAGA's ling/bane drop style of ZvP must be the future of the matchup. There simply is /no/ counter to ling/bane drops. Air play is OK, but you might kill 2 overlords? before i blow up all your probes, sentries, and stalker/zealots. Even floating 1k minerals (macro hatch or two is necessary I think) I can crush my practice partners it's just insane. It sucks that the timings don't quite work to defend this all-in.
I would like to get some help about the scouting phase... A friend of mine use pretty much same timing gaz and forge activation for a zealot +1 push into blink stalker +2. So if i don't scout robo i can't be sure which one it is. I love to play muta ling against protoss and would like to deal with sentry immo push using mutas lings, but a build order without a fast roach warren get destroyed by the zealot +1 push (7min10) so is there any way when you scout to see the difference between those two builds ? thx a lot if someone can help me with this.
^ Post a rep then. We can't really help you without a rep.
If your friend is doing his own gas timing, then it just means the build should be easier for you to handle as it's later/weaker.
Fast +1 zealot pushes can only come if he doesnt take any gas by 6:30. if he doesn't take any gas by 6:30 with immortals, you should easily be maxed by the time he arrives at your base, at which point you simply spread your units and easily crush him from 2 directions.
See no gas at natural by 6:30 = 6:30 and 1 millisecond later, you make a roach warren.
See gas at natural by 6:30 = don't make a roach warren until like 7:30+, at which point you should easily see he has lots of sentries, or the robo, which should be in the natural. He can't really hide his immortals, and if he is going immortal/sentry, the sentries won't kill your overlords before they find that robo, which is almost always in the nat.
Blink will have stalkers instead of sentries. And your friend's quick +1 zealot push, if it takes gas, means that it isn't really a quick +1 zealot push, and you should easily have pumped enough lings to deal with it, as well as a later, standard roach warren.
Also, you can go quick mutas with a roach warren. Making the roach warren isn't a big deal. You'd rather not make it, to cut some corners, but it's not a big deal at all. You are still going lair before speed either way, so your spire timing wouldn't be affected.
the replays on "Method 3: Fast 3 base mutalisks " part are not against immo sentry push... do u have some replay of muta ling against immo sentry push ? do u trade base or fight the push ? and if u choose to trade how fast do u get ur mutas ?
^ check out my zvp guide linked in my profile. you base trade. you get your mutas as fast as you can. you should know it's at least a robo opening before lair finishes, but the earlier you know, the more corners you can cut (no macro hatch so you can make more spines, quicker lair, quicker gases, no roach warren or evo, etc) but with a standard 3 hatch opening you should get mutas out by 11:00. a good 30 seconds to a minute later then when the push is already killing your third but you should have a ton of spines up in your nat so he can't finish you off, and then your 15-20 mutas all at once will bust his wall, and your lings can stream in and win the base trade while he can't push up.
On August 23 2012 01:48 PiGStarcraft wrote: A few weeks ago I experimented with going straight into a banenest and then banespeed the second my lair finished when i scouted/guessed this allin was coming. (its usually pretty obvious through the early sentry production and robo almost always at natural next to nexus),
At first I was toying with speedbanes in all matchups because I was dealing with massive delay but actually had massive success especially against this build. 3-way flank and they need to leave 0 gaps or risk losing all their sentries. Usually there's a gap and you just win. Alternately they spam most of their FF and on the 2nd wave there is a gap and you clear it out. It's still a narrow fight relying on the same control as roachling defense but I found it to be more reliable and more punishing on opponent's mistakes. Creep-spread is a massive bonus of course.
Sorry don't have any replays on the laptop I'm posting from. This was at high master KR and high gm NA though. Try it out if you like
I experimented with baneling drops as well, but ofc it only works against the variants that hit slightly later.
I have been having success going 3 hatch roach/ling and getting a good number of spines at my natural and third.
I haven't quite refined it, but I basically go for 60 drones by 8 mins. 3 gas at 6:30, roach warren/evo at 7:00, ling speed and +1 melee. The best I have done with it, I managed to have 26 lings + 12 roaches + 11-12 spine crawlers witth +1 melee nearly complete by 10:30 (replay 1) but I think these numbers could be vastly improved upon. I also usually poke with my army to buy some time to pump more units. If you can manage to trap them on your ramp, they're screwed. (replay 2).
I am only a high diamond player so I assume better zergs could produce even more than I managed to. I believe this certainly needs to be refined more and discussed. I figure that you're going to need the spines later in the game anyway.
This is the better of my two attempts at this strategy against a masters toss: http://drop.sc/247682
This was my first attempt to use spines to hold the push. My macro is pretty sloppy. I only made 5 spines at my natural and 6 at my third. By 10:30 I have spines complete at my natural with spines finishing at the 3rd. I also have 10 roaches/10 lings. He attempts to push my natural and I trap him on my ramp and his army is decimated: http://drop.sc/247681
I hope this helps someone. I am going to be improving upon it as much as possible.
I find ling bane is quite effective. If he backs off long enough then you can get fast infestors out which will completely crush his attack. I think a good thing to note is that if he is taking the double gas then it's okay to cut drones at like 50 and start to mass lings. He will either be going immortal sentry all in (where you can hold), immortal sentry expand, where you can deny the 3rd, or voidrays where you can deny the 3rd he tries to take behind it as well and then you rush out your infestors.
In this game I grabbed a very early lair because I was planning on possibly getting drops, but I decided to abandon that idea so you don't need to grab the lair as early.
On September 06 2012 08:20 ambikalx wrote: I have been having success going 3 hatch roach/ling and getting a good number of spines at my natural and third.
I haven't quite refined it, but I basically go for 60 drones by 8 mins. 3 gas at 6:30, roach warren/evo at 7:00, ling speed and +1 melee. The best I have done with it, I managed to have 26 lings + 12 roaches + 11-12 spine crawlers witth +1 melee nearly complete by 10:30 (replay 1) but I think these numbers could be vastly improved upon. I also usually poke with my army to buy some time to pump more units. If you can manage to trap them on your ramp, they're screwed. (replay 2).
I am only a high diamond player so I assume better zergs could produce even more than I managed to. I believe this certainly needs to be refined more and discussed. I figure that you're going to need the spines later in the game anyway.
This is the better of my two attempts at this strategy against a masters toss: http://drop.sc/247682
This was my first attempt to use spines to hold the push. My macro is pretty sloppy. I only made 5 spines at my natural and 6 at my third. By 10:30 I have spines complete at my natural with spines finishing at the 3rd. I also have 10 roaches/10 lings. He attempts to push my natural and I trap him on my ramp and his army is decimated: http://drop.sc/247681
I hope this helps someone. I am going to be improving upon it as much as possible.
I don't have time to watch replays (I'll be sure to watch and add to OP if it's relevant!), but while I was thinking about this it seems to be really good on stupid maps. For example, Cloud Kingdom, bottom left spawn. If you build ~6 spines to the right of the third hatchery it would be a huge help. Setting up a flank would also be great, so you can pounce on him as soon as he engages the spines. It basically prevents him from abusing the map too much. He can either forcefield himself in (yay delaying his push by 15 seconds!), or he can forcefield off your flank and engage some roach/ling backed by 6 spines, or he can forcefield the spines and eat up your big roach/ling flank. Seems effective; give your army some cost-efficient ranged attack :D Only on Cloud Kingdom would I do it -- personally I'm comfortable holding it on any other map (that I don't have vetoed lol)
Llama, that video was awesome. I'll be sure to add it to the OP once I have some free time, also Belial it's an example of ling/bane being used in a top level game to stop immortal/sentry all-in! Not sure how much of it was luck though; you did force him to use like 20 forcefields on that small number of lings. Still, looks promising. Banelings! :D
^ Suppy essentially seems to do that. Some people were saying "Oh suppy beats it with ling/infestor!" but it wasn't really true, he holds it using mass spines, not ling/infestor. He's able to buy time with the spines to get ling/infestor. I'm not really sure how viable it is because he comments in that particular game that he woudl ahve lost if toss just pushed (because infestors can't be out in time, so it's essentially just naked spines...), but i think the idea of using spines itself isn't a bad one. Maybe combined with something more conventional like roach/ling... maybe even mutas, and i think it's definitely viable.
I surprised there's still no concensus to really beat immortal/sentry. Or why don't toss just do it every game. They do it on ohana every single time though.
Mrllama and mavvie - i'm really not sure about that ling/bane video. I'm not going to say that it's clearly not a good example or evidence, it looks like it has potential. It's not ling/bane drop though, I don't think drops would work at all. That Toss only had 2 immortals instead of 3, and unfortunately warped in a shitton of zealots, which was kind of weird (i get he saw lots of lings, but generally stalkers are the warp in of choice after pushing out). I think if that Toss kept his back against the wall and forcefielded better, he would have had that game. His forcefields were absolutely terrible though. Even at ~9:00 when you engaged with slowlings, he didn't forcefield until his sentry was half dead, and why was his army split apart from eachother.
Could banespeed come out in time against immortal/sentry though? That'd be interesting. It's also probably very map dependent too. I don't see that approach working at all on a map like cloud kingdom.
On September 06 2012 12:47 Belial88 wrote: Mrllama and mavvie - i'm really not sure about that ling/bane video. I'm not going to say that it's clearly not a good example or evidence, it looks like it has potential. It's not ling/bane drop though, I don't think drops would work at all. That Toss only had 2 immortals instead of 3, and unfortunately warped in a shitton of zealots, which was kind of weird (i get he saw lots of lings, but generally stalkers are the warp in of choice after pushing out). I think if that Toss kept his back against the wall and forcefielded better, he would have had that game. His forcefields were absolutely terrible though. Even at ~9:00 when you engaged with slowlings, he didn't forcefield until his sentry was half dead, and why was his army split apart from eachother.
Could banespeed come out in time against immortal/sentry though? That'd be interesting. It's also probably very map dependent too. I don't see that approach working at all on a map like cloud kingdom.
I agree. Sure, he hits earlier, but it's gotta be with less. I, a diamond Zerg, can offrace and move out at 9:00 with 3 immortals and 8 sentries by 9:00, with no knowledge of the build other than the rough shape of it, and having the mechanics to chronoboost (lol, almost no one remembers to fully chrono their robo. It's like WG -- it takes, what, 150 seconds for 3 immortals? Give or take a bit, but chrono gets you 3 immortals for the time price of two...you'll move out 45-60 seconds earlier just because of it)
Also true, toss was massively out of position I found it pretty unfortunate.
I think another option is to overwhelm the rush before it gets too strong. First time I played against this (unknowingly, and I was like in gold), I cut drones at ~45-50 and had enough speedlings to surround him the moment he stepped onto open ground. Since they're all-in, perhaps it's a good idea to go for a sort of 2base muta/ling strategy with a third hatch? This is obviously something that would have to be reactive, but I feel like you could scout the all-in, cut drones, mass lings and mine gas off 6 geysers, and once the spire pops you can make mutas and drones. It is fairly all-in itself, but mutas will do a TON for you if he has no twilight, no/very few stalkers, and no third base w/ cannons. I tried something similar against my friend (9:20 move out), but I made about 40 drones too many (hehe I'm bad). Either way, 16 mutas were able to completely ruin his economy. He had 6 probes by the time he was able to shoo out my mutas.
If I only made (16x2)+(3x6)=32+18=50 drones, using the 4:30 gas timing like Nestea did in that other thread, massing lings you can overwhelm his push and then kill him with the mutas.
I can't say if this works against good opponents, or is even close to viable, but it looks like a decent option. I believe in MrLlama's video he cut drones around then too (I think, saw it a while ago don't quite remember), and having 12-16 mutas with a lot of lings he won't be able to stop you. All theorycrafting, but seems fun and hopefully is viable. Once defending the all-in you just pump muta/drone, double (or triple, if he killed the third hatch) expand, and he won't be getting a third up anytime soon. It's like 3 base muta, but only 2 bases of minerals and a drone cut at ~50!
Edit: I'm bored of writing an essay, so I'll do the banespeed math: Lair = 80 seconds, extractor = 30 seconds, gas mines ~100 gas/min, bane speed = 110 seconds :C Actually, screw math, I'll just go by relative timings. It comes out 20 seconds earlier than mutas, so a 5:00 gas or 5:30 double gas lair first should be sort of good enough. Goodbye economy, but to survive the all-in it's worth it imo. Aren't speedbanes just like regular banes but a little less unforgiving to the enemy? Seems like it's not worth the fast lair/speed upgrade to me...
On September 06 2012 12:47 Belial88 wrote: Mrllama and mavvie - i'm really not sure about that ling/bane video. I'm not going to say that it's clearly not a good example or evidence, it looks like it has potential. It's not ling/bane drop though, I don't think drops would work at all. That Toss only had 2 immortals instead of 3, and unfortunately warped in a shitton of zealots, which was kind of weird (i get he saw lots of lings, but generally stalkers are the warp in of choice after pushing out). I think if that Toss kept his back against the wall and forcefielded better, he would have had that game. His forcefields were absolutely terrible though. Even at ~9:00 when you engaged with slowlings, he didn't forcefield until his sentry was half dead, and why was his army split apart from eachother.
Could banespeed come out in time against immortal/sentry though? That'd be interesting. It's also probably very map dependent too. I don't see that approach working at all on a map like cloud kingdom.
I agree. Sure, he hits earlier, but it's gotta be with less. I, a diamond Zerg, can offrace and move out at 9:00 with 3 immortals and 8 sentries by 9:00, with no knowledge of the build other than the rough shape of it, and having the mechanics to chronoboost (lol, almost no one remembers to fully chrono their robo. It's like WG -- it takes, what, 150 seconds for 3 immortals? Give or take a bit, but chrono gets you 3 immortals for the time price of two...you'll move out 45-60 seconds earlier just because of it)
Also true, toss was massively out of position I found it pretty unfortunate.
I think another option is to overwhelm the rush before it gets too strong. First time I played against this (unknowingly, and I was like in gold), I cut drones at ~45-50 and had enough speedlings to surround him the moment he stepped onto open ground. Since they're all-in, perhaps it's a good idea to go for a sort of 2base muta/ling strategy with a third hatch? This is obviously something that would have to be reactive, but I feel like you could scout the all-in, cut drones, mass lings and mine gas off 6 geysers, and once the spire pops you can make mutas and drones. It is fairly all-in itself, but mutas will do a TON for you if he has no twilight, no/very few stalkers, and no third base w/ cannons. I tried something similar against my friend (9:20 move out), but I made about 40 drones too many (hehe I'm bad). Either way, 16 mutas were able to completely ruin his economy. He had 6 probes by the time he was able to shoo out my mutas.
If I only made (16x2)+(3x6)=32+18=50 drones, using the 4:30 gas timing like Nestea did in that other thread, massing lings you can overwhelm his push and then kill him with the mutas.
I can't say if this works against good opponents, or is even close to viable, but it looks like a decent option. I believe in MrLlama's video he cut drones around then too (I think, saw it a while ago don't quite remember), and having 12-16 mutas with a lot of lings he won't be able to stop you. All theorycrafting, but seems fun and hopefully is viable. Once defending the all-in you just pump muta/drone, double (or triple, if he killed the third hatch) expand, and he won't be getting a third up anytime soon. It's like 3 base muta, but only 2 bases of minerals and a drone cut at ~50!
Edit: I'm bored of writing an essay, so I'll do the banespeed math: Lair = 80 seconds, extractor = 30 seconds, gas mines ~100 gas/min, bane speed = 110 seconds :C Actually, screw math, I'll just go by relative timings. It comes out 20 seconds earlier than mutas, so a 5:00 gas or 5:30 double gas lair first should be sort of good enough. Goodbye economy, but to survive the all-in it's worth it imo. Aren't speedbanes just like regular banes but a little less unforgiving to the enemy? Seems like it's not worth the fast lair/speed upgrade to me...
If I see no 3rd by toss at ~9 mins I cut my drones at ~55 and just mass units. That way most of time I can stup push right on its tracks with speedlings + roaches. Sometimes I sac some lings to kill the probe (he has not enough to protect it at start of push). If I see him expanding and not pushing I can try to deny his 3rd with untis I got and just drone up. If no 3rd and no push comming long time I try to tech up, and squeeze a bit of drones here and there and not to be greedy.
AFAIK, no gas at natural @ 6:30 means either +1 zealot pressure or all-in, 1 gas is either blink, DTs, stargate, or some kind of robo expand, and 4 gas is a tech-heavy 2-base all-in, on ladder this usually means sentry/immortal. In my experience, 6:45 is the better timing if they opened forge-first (not nexus first), because of worse mechanics and gameplay at my level.
I don't think you should try to identify exactly what build an opponent is doing by looking at the gas count, instead use it to approximate when he is building his gateways (ie assume that he is spending his minerals). No gas means they are building gateways. Early gas means they are teching and postponing the gateways.
AFAIK, no gas at natural @ 6:30 means either +1 zealot pressure or all-in, 1 gas is either blink, DTs, stargate, or some kind of robo expand, and 4 gas is a tech-heavy 2-base all-in, on ladder this usually means sentry/immortal. In my experience, 6:45 is the better timing if they opened forge-first (not nexus first), because of worse mechanics and gameplay at my level.
I don't think you should try to identify exactly what build an opponent is doing by looking at the gas count, instead use it to approximate when he is building his gateways (ie assume that he is spending his minerals). No gas means they are building gateways. Early gas means they are teching and postponing the gateways.
Is that not the same thing, but just less accurate/reliable? While what you say is true, it makes no difference. If he has no gas at 6:30, that means I build a roach warren and get speed first to get roaches out by the time his gateway pressure or all-in hits, because he's getting fast gateways. So I need a fast roach warren. From a theorycrafting point of view, sure, all that matters is the gateway timings. But in game, there's no problem with associating a gas timing with a build. It's basically the same thing, just different wording. Also, many (pro) players don't make gateways until after their third nexus. Stargate expands often have 1 gateway (Oz is an example iirc?)
Ive read the OP through twice, and it seems many of the counter builds rely on blindly taking 2 gas early while teching to lair. Do you guys think 3hatch no gas is dead with such a powerful allin available? I've seen good zerg players scout it and still not be able to pump enough zerg units. Base trade seems risky and your entire army could be sandwiched...right now there seems to not be any reliable way to scout and react from a 3hatch no gas open.
On October 07 2012 00:20 neoghaleon55 wrote: Ive read the OP through twice, and it seems many of the counter builds rely on blindly taking 2 gas early while teching to lair. Do you guys think 3hatch no gas is dead with such a powerful allin available? I've seen good zerg players scout it and still not be able to pump enough zerg units. Base trade seems risky and your entire army could be sandwiched...right now there seems to not be any reliable way to scout and react from a 3hatch no gas open.
You can hold it but you need to execute absolutely PERFECTLY. Delay with a few units (speedlings) as much as possible without losing them, macro perfectly, have good creep spread, bait ff's without getting your stuff caught and attack it from at least two directions. I have seen stephano surround this attack on Ohana from like 3 while it was in the middle of the map, crushing it, but yeah defending it in general is extremely hard.
Plus, you might think OH SHIT HE'S IMMORTAL ALLINING ME and protoss is actually immortal expanding while you sit at your third, terrorized.
On October 07 2012 00:20 neoghaleon55 wrote: Ive read the OP through twice, and it seems many of the counter builds rely on blindly taking 2 gas early while teching to lair. Do you guys think 3hatch no gas is dead with such a powerful allin available? I've seen good zerg players scout it and still not be able to pump enough zerg units. Base trade seems risky and your entire army could be sandwiched...right now there seems to not be any reliable way to scout and react from a 3hatch no gas open.
You can hold it but you need to execute absolutely PERFECTLY. Delay with a few units (speedlings) as much as possible without losing them, macro perfectly, have good creep spread, bait ff's without getting your stuff caught and attack it from at least two directions. I have seen stephano surround this attack on Ohana from like 3 while it was in the middle of the map, crushing it, but yeah defending it in general is extremely hard.
Plus, you might think OH SHIT HE'S IMMORTAL ALLINING ME and protoss is actually immortal expanding while you sit at your third, terrorized.
execute perfectly isn't reliable and it's more relying on the protoss fucking up their forcefields/forcefields-management if anything.
EPT
