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I tend to prefer experimentation over adhering to the current gold standard of the metagame. I don't do a 6 queen opener in ZvT, I don't do standard gas timings in ZvP and I prefer a Mutalisk style in ZvZ due to having more control over his infestors. There's a lot less replays to copy in that sense, so I have to build up my own understanding of the game and lose to a lot of silly stuff in the process. I also prefer more multitask heavy styles to strain my micro-macro mechanics more, and messing up with those styles tends to give you really bad looking losses ( mismicroing mutalisks, having an overseer in a pack of overlords hotkeyed so you can't do drops before removing that overseer and so on ) over the standard 'sit on your ass and turtle to deatharmy X'.
No one is saying there isn't alternative ways to play the game. We've seen a ton of variance in how pros handle imortal/sentry - hyun's roach/ling base trade, nestea's muta base trade, and roach/ling straight up. But when you do a style that no pro ever does, people are going to question it, and it's not like pros don't think to themselves "let's try something different" or "I'm going to experiment!" or "I don't like playing standard".
But what you are suggesting, is something that flat-out doesn't work at a high level. All you are really suggesting is a 2 base ling/bane opener, but grabbing a third hatch and doing nothing with it. I think you'd find much more success if you simply went 2 hatch lair instead of took a third, because all you are doing is having less economy than a 2 base lair has, while having later tech than a 3 hatch does. It's the worst of both worlds.
Also, if you are only testing this stuff out at diamond level, it's hard to really validate what you are doing. If you want to say "this is what works for me in diamond", that's perfectly fine, you can even write a guide about it, but you can't say "well despite never having faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in, I'm going to recommend you go ling/bane drops because that works for me in diamond".
(in reference to my comment about 2 base ling/bane vs 2 base toss)
I am only going to answer this point, because it absolutely baffles me that you lack the imagination neccesary that in a straight up fight with drops, you imagine the first to win. Either you bait out a ton of forcefields ( you're moving in with the overlords while attacking with the lings at the same time, forcing protoss to pick either forcefielding, retreating or spreading rigth away ) or you just straight up swamp him. Unless he has some kind of magical marineking-prime esque split, manages to get forcefields up while sniping away at overlords, his sentries will be long dead, the zealots gone with it, leaving only 9 stalkers and 3 immortals to fight against 60 Zerglings...
It's not a lack of imagination, I think it's kind of insulting that you say that. It's that I know what a proper immortal/sentry all-in can hit like, and certain 'answers' just aren't correct when you get to a certain level. Really, i went ling/bane drops for a better part of a year in ZvP, you can even see my Ling Infestor Guide (how I grew to love zvp) where I talk about it. if anything, i'm certainly someone who's open to non-standard approaches to the game, and I love me some baneling drops. I wish ling/bane drop was the answer, but it's not.
In a 2 base vs 2 base situation, toss isn't going to move out, he's going to stay in his base. Even with your drops, you aren't going to bust the ramp at Toss' base, you are just going to kill his sentries - no MKP micro necessary as he pre-splits his units for the aggression. Just like any 2 base opener though, you are semi- all-in and have to do damage, and as long as Toss defends, he'll be ahead. It's why people don't open 2 base ling/bane in ZvP - 2 base muta is really the better 2 base build if anything, but 2 base builds in general are kind of all-innish and not as strong for a macro game (but as a strat once in a while, sure, its strong, just like any all-in or pressure build can be).
so basically you still say basetrading with mutas + spines is viable and basetrading with ling banedrop + spines isnt?
if you sac your 3rd and put mass spines at your natural while having your lings and ovis positioned in front of his base you will drop him as he kills your 3rd. its not like he kills your 3rd and walks back and defends the drop since you drop him AS he kills the 3rd.
i think best way to go if you go banedrop is basetrade if you see you cant get drop in time/dont have enough shit or just outright kill him/defend 3rd if your BO + macro went well.
Maybe. I don't know, if someone tries it and posts the results that would be interesting. I don't think it would work well, but maybe. Mutas are really good in base trades, drop tech doesn't really seem to be as good for it. Then again, roach/ling isn't exactly base trade material either.
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On August 20 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I tend to prefer experimentation over adhering to the current gold standard of the metagame. I don't do a 6 queen opener in ZvT, I don't do standard gas timings in ZvP and I prefer a Mutalisk style in ZvZ due to having more control over his infestors. There's a lot less replays to copy in that sense, so I have to build up my own understanding of the game and lose to a lot of silly stuff in the process. I also prefer more multitask heavy styles to strain my micro-macro mechanics more, and messing up with those styles tends to give you really bad looking losses ( mismicroing mutalisks, having an overseer in a pack of overlords hotkeyed so you can't do drops before removing that overseer and so on ) over the standard 'sit on your ass and turtle to deatharmy X'. Also, if you are only testing this stuff out at diamond level, it's hard to really validate what you are doing. If you want to say "this is what works for me in diamond", that's perfectly fine, you can even write a guide about it, but you can't say "well despite never having faced a proper immortal/sentry all-in, I'm going to recommend you go ling/bane drops because that works for me in diamond".
From this very thread:
On August 15 2012 17:39 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I'd go with the other styles that were brought up in this guide and try and work with those while I gather replays and evidence in favour of this method.
On August 17 2012 20:39 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I haven't proven that the baneling drop style works, which isn't why I posted that replay in the first place. I posted it to refute the claim that drop CAN'T be out in time for the push, while it clearly can be. You can keep on putting disbelief in that specific style because my evidence has been light, all I'm saying that drop can infact be out in time ( moreso if you go lair before speed, which I didnt in the replay ) and that the tech can be out to defend against this all in. Whether it is the most optimal build ever in terms of dronecount was never my intention of proving, more so it's just an option that I personally go for at 2000 MMR.
I don't mind being called out on my builds. But I never recommended this over any other style ever since that discussion in the Zerg Help Me thread. All I did was tell people how I did it if they asked for it. Please stop making it sound like I am forcing my build down everyones throat while I'm clearly recommending other methods over mine.
On August 20 2012 13:38 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
(in reference to my comment about 2 base ling/bane vs 2 base toss)
I am only going to answer this point, because it absolutely baffles me that you lack the imagination neccesary that in a straight up fight with drops, you imagine the first to win. Either you bait out a ton of forcefields ( you're moving in with the overlords while attacking with the lings at the same time, forcing protoss to pick either forcefielding, retreating or spreading rigth away ) or you just straight up swamp him. Unless he has some kind of magical marineking-prime esque split, manages to get forcefields up while sniping away at overlords, his sentries will be long dead, the zealots gone with it, leaving only 9 stalkers and 3 immortals to fight against 60 Zerglings...
It's not a lack of imagination, I think it's kind of insulting that you say that. It's that I know what a proper immortal/sentry all-in can hit like, and certain 'answers' just aren't correct when you get to a certain level. Really, i went ling/bane drops for a better part of a year in ZvP, you can even see my Ling Infestor Guide (how I grew to love zvp) where I talk about it. if anything, i'm certainly someone who's open to non-standard approaches to the game, and I love me some baneling drops. I wish ling/bane drop was the answer, but it's not. In a 2 base vs 2 base situation, toss isn't going to move out, he's going to stay in his base. Even with your drops, you aren't going to bust the ramp at Toss' base, you are just going to kill his sentries - no MKP micro necessary as he pre-splits his units for the aggression. Just like any 2 base opener though, you are semi- all-in and have to do damage, and as long as Toss defends, he'll be ahead. It's why people don't open 2 base ling/bane in ZvP - 2 base muta is really the better 2 base build if anything, but 2 base builds in general are kind of all-innish and not as strong for a macro game (but as a strat once in a while, sure, its strong, just like any all-in or pressure build can be).
Which is one of the reasons you get a third out, to make him move out in the open. You can't defeat a wall off with this style, that's not how you're supposed to use it. In the Immortal-Sentry games its meant to stop the push immediately. In later times it is used to whipe out the gateway army so your superior reinforcements can clean up and take out a base of protoss. If you let Protoss get up a fourth base with this style, you're very much behind, I agree.
All I asked was in a straight up fight, no strings attached, just composition versus composition, which army would win. Which you responded by saying 'well protoss is just never going to move out because you are on two bases'. If he doesn't move out he just gives me time to make an even bigger army or instantly saturate my third and get a fourth to try and lure him out. The point of the third base is not to give an immediate return of investments against this style, it's to have something to fall back onto without being forced to attack the protoss no matter what. Hell, if he doesn't move out, you don't even have to morph the banelings.
For this thread I suggest we lay down the discussion on the baneling drop style. There is no reason to continue discussing something that has gone back and forth so long without any side budging from their main stance. I'll stop talking about it as to not waste anyones time on more discussion that isn't leading this thread anywhere.
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How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
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On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote:
How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
They are quite good at defending this all in but if toss decides to take third instead (which he should do after scouting hydra tech) and switch to colossus then you've just wasted a lot of gas into useless units and your chances of defending a 3 base colossus timing are minimal.
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On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote:
How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
I don't believe roach hydra is better than pure roach. Hydras just aren't as cost efficient and the range difference isn't that great. Ling Hydra might work if you can get the range upgrade because it is much harder to FF out both lings AND hydras. However I am not sure on the followup as hydra is pretty weak against collosus and high templar.
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I seem to be able to get drops and a decent amount of ling bane off 3 hatches by the 10 minute mark. The gas timings are 4:30, 5:30 and 6:30x2 and the upgrades lair>speed>drops>overlord speed>bane nest. I also get enough drones to saturate 4 gases and 3 mineral lines. I just figured out the gas timings required to get ling/bane drops out in time mathematically and at first they seemed too early to be viable, but i think i manage the decent amount of drones and units because i need less overlords compared to a roach/ling build.
drop.sc doesn't seem to be working at the moment, so I'll upload a replay later, but i encourage you to try it out if you're at all interested :D
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I'm a baneling-drop type of guy, so here's my two cents. I get it around 11 minutes i suppose. Well that might differ a little bit i suppose depending on having to deal early aggression and get speed first and so on. That said, the early aggression will also delay the sentry immortal push. So it's not that useful to look at the times but the basic things i've summed up are:
The all in comes at varying times depending on what is the army the opponent is comfortable moving out with. If i don't get early aggression, i actually go +1 melee before Lair and very fast 2 aditional gases. I also get a roach warren and asap speed on that. Then i get 5 gases if it isn't an extremely fast version. So, generally all the timings differ even depending on map, but you can divide them into 3 groups: Comes before drops (time remaining might vary), comes just as the drops are finished, a pretty late one, a bigger one at that.
The late one - usually have +2 melee at that time, bane drops 2shot sentries, most of the time the army get's destroyed. A good balance of ling-roach is good for better attacking surface management. If you botch the engagement, a continious blink stalker warp in might be troublesome.
The early one - depending on armies, you chose what to do - how you stall him a bit, force some sentries (not for the energy, since, when bane drops come, it won't matter that much, just for the time), if you don't have roach speed yet done, this might be hard, i sacrifice a base (depending on which he is going to. on some maps - 3rd, that is perfect, just build a 4th and transfer most of the drones before he arrives, on some maps - natural - it gets.. harder) you have to scare him into moving very slowly. if you throw any number of banelings at him, he will pretty much always forcefield in order to protect sentries, this gives quite a bit of time. You also have some production in the back from the third, so he actually kind of sandwiches himself and you have banelings so he can't ignore that. You normally should also have time to place a spine or two at ur natural, just for more delay. You should get ur banedrops, you don't really need many banelings, just 6 or so, roach ling with a pretty high number of roaches, as, when stalling, your roaches wont die, the lings/banes will, as the forcefields will try to keep them off. That's about it. If they go for the 3rd, put 2 spines or ur natural, force them to advance slowly, quite easy.
The middle one - it's often either a failed early one or a push after some weird harassment. The army itself oftentimes isn't much bigger than the early version and you can usually take the fight. Though at this version you should have a lot of lings, less roaches.
That's how all the all ins have been dealt in my case. Atm i'm very rusty on mechanics so i don't really save replays, if i find one, i'll drop it here.
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On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote:
How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this?
Ling/hydra is amazing against sentry/immortal all-in, IMO the best composition to stop it, Losira used to use it quite a bit on stream.
That being said, if it turns out they weren't all-inning you, well, Hydras are slow so it's hard to attack with them, and once collossus come out it's wasted. So you have to be pretty sure it's going to be an all-in.
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On August 20 2012 23:32 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:31 gronnelg wrote:
How do you guys feel about adding hydras to the mix to stop this? Ling/hydra is amazing against sentry/immortal all-in, IMO the best composition to stop it, Losira used to use it quite a bit on stream. That being said, if it turns out they weren't all-inning you, well, Hydras are slow so it's hard to attack with them, and once collossus come out it's wasted. So you have to be pretty sure it's going to be an all-in.
I believe the problem with hydras, apart from what you said, is that it doesn't satisfy point B. A colossus all-in looks the same if your scouting is denied significantly by a competent Protoss player. If you go ling/hydra, you're just going to die to the colossus all in. Simple as that. So it may beat sentry/immortal, but not all the all-ins that look similar based on common scouting.
Also, hydras suck. I actually never make them, not even in ZvZ (probably should, but I really don't like them)
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Maybe you can go roach/ling/hydra to stop the allin, then get drop if he takes a 3rd?
There was a guide on a roach/hydra drop i saw a month or two ago but can't find it with search now. As i recall it was a powerful strategy at the time but possibly the game has evolved a bit.
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That being said, if it turns out they weren't all-inning you, well, Hydras are slow so it's hard to attack with them, and once collossus come out it's wasted. So you have to be pretty sure it's going to be an all-in.
If you scout the gates it's fairly straight forward. By the time he scouts the hydras he's going to be pretty late in terms of the colossus. That leaves two options, he expands (and you get all up in his grill) or he goes colossus and you prepare.
If you don't scout the third going down, you'll notice that the colossus is coming in fairly soon (and if im right, gateway numbers/production will have to die down a bit for it) and have enough time to just drop a spire and get all in his face. My experience (being worth nothing, of course) is that I've had great success dropping a nydus network and getting really aggro in the gap - it'll force more production from the gateways, maybe lead to you getting a forge down while he's upgrading, and most importantly - allow you to start a 4th.
No doubt many holes here, but it's a pretty solid build I'm finding just now. People just don't seem to like nydusing up to their front door as opposed to actually in their base. Its just a quick method of reinforcing!
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I'm a baneling-drop type of guy, so here's my two cents. I get it around 11 minutes i suppose. Well that might differ a little bit i suppose depending on having to deal early aggression and get speed first and so on. That said, the early aggression will also delay the sentry immortal push. So it's not that useful to look at the times but the basic things i've summed up are:
There's is no 'early all-in' or 'late all-in'. It's either Toss pushes out with 3 immortals, 6+ sentries, by 9:30 and hits by 10:30, or he's not doing an immortal/sentry all-in (or not doing it correctly).
There is no way you are going to have +2 done against an immortal/sentry all-in. You can possible have +1 finished.
On August 17 2012 19:24 Jeece712 wrote:I didn't read all the messages ( i just ctrl + f'ed ) and i am suprised that nobody speaks about Hydras. I am a mid Master Zerg and i am creating a " original " transition against Sentry/Robo all in. I open as usual with double expand, 6min double gas, etc ... When I scout late 2 gaz in oponent's natural, i immediatly put an Hydralisk Den and creat many Overlord. After 60 drones on 4 gas / 3 bases i creat many many ling to put pressure in the protoss's natural ( around 9min ), force forcefield and delay a little bit his push. When the Hydralisk Den is finish i creat as many Hydra as I can and attack with Ling/Hydra ( don't forget +1 range for them ). Here is a replay where i don't macro very well : http://terranimba.com/replay/79dhDamRkfs2vU ( 900+ Master ) Keep reinforcing with Ling/Hydra and add some Roaches because the Protoss will often go to Collosus. If the Protoss was not going for a Sentry/Immo All in ( B3, or anything else on 4 gas ) just all in with Ling/Hydra => Roaches/Hydra with a proxy Nydus.
In the replay you provided, Toss only has 2 immortals by 9:30, when he should have 3 immortals already done and be ppushing out. Toss didn't even push out until 10:30. You had 5 hydras by 10:30.
a late edit, but what i meant by 'you had 5 hydras by 10:30' means maybe you are on to something?
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Is it possible to go mass ling and infestor. then surround with ling and infested terran to stop the push?
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Let's try the math:
Say you take a quick lair at 7:00 once you scout gas/robo. That takes 80s and will be done at 8:20. If you plant your infestation pit right away, that will take 50s and be done at 9:10. If you want your infestors to have fungal, you'll need to research pathogen glands, wait 30s, then build your infestors at 9:40, which take another 50s, popping out at 10:30, the exact time that the push is supposed to hit (at the latest), and all of your infestors will be scurrying about. If you skip pathogen glands because you just want a few IT's, you can have them at 10:00.
Infestors spawn with 50 energy, or 75 with PG, and IT's cost 25 energy. This means you get 2 IT's from each infestor you build, which can't really be more than 4-6 I think. So you just have to ask if all of that gas and all of those minerals is worth a few fungals or 8-12 IT's. Personally, I really really really don't think so. To put it in perspective, the resource cost of an infestation pit, 4 infestors, and pathogen glands adds up to 650 minerals and 850 gas, which comes out to about 9 roaches, with an extra 625 gas for roach speed, +1 +1 etc. You could even mine less gas and make more lings with it.
I don't think it's worth it ^_^ I prefer the base trade or heavy flanks.
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On August 22 2012 03:15 Deatheus89 wrote:
Is it possible to go mass ling and infestor. then surround with ling and infested terran to stop the push?
Pretty sure it isn't; you can't get a significant number of infestors in time. However, fungals destroy sentries, so if you could get them in time + land the fungals it'd be an easy win.
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On August 22 2012 03:47 DojoJoe wrote:
Let's try the math:
Say you take a quick lair at 7:00 once you scout gas/robo. That takes 80s and will be done at 8:20. If you plant your infestation pit right away, that will take 50s and be done at 9:10. If you want your infestors to have fungal, you'll need to research pathogen glands, wait 30s, then build your infestors at 9:40, which take another 50s, popping out at 10:30, the exact time that the push is supposed to hit (at the latest), and all of your infestors will be scurrying about. If you skip pathogen glands because you just want a few IT's, you can have them at 10:00.
Infestors spawn with 50 energy, or 75 with PG, and IT's cost 25 energy. This means you get 2 IT's from each infestor you build, which can't really be more than 4-6 I think. So you just have to ask if all of that gas and all of those minerals is worth a few fungals or 8-12 IT's. Personally, I really really really don't think so. To put it in perspective, the resource cost of an infestation pit, 4 infestors, and pathogen glands adds up to 650 minerals and 850 gas, which comes out to about 9 roaches, with an extra 625 gas for roach speed, +1 +1 etc. You could even mine less gas and make more lings with it.
I don't think it's worth it ^_^ I prefer the base trade or heavy flanks.
Ok thanks for the answer! I think there was once I almost stopped it with mass ling infestor. But failed because I used fungal growth instead of infested terran.
I made a huge batch of lings early to delay his army walking from his base to mine. So, I think his pushed arrived late enough that I had about 6 infestors? With pathogen glands completed. But yea currently having lots of problems with this build.
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I'm a high masters zerg and the most effective way for me to hold this push is to counter attack. Either force a large warp in at his base pull your units back and crush his army and if he doesnt warp in you take out his natural while you spine up your natural then it becomes 2 base vs 1 base and you win. I don't think I've lost playing like this to this push in over a month now.
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I posted this in another thread, but I feel like posting it here as well as I didn't get the exact response I was looking for.
Here are 4 replays of me playing the same person doing the same build (his version of the immortal/sentry all-in) and me failing to defend it with roach/ling. I have read and believe I understand the way to deal with the all-in using the method I am attempting to use, but it's still not even close. I am hoping someone can shed some light for me on what I did wrong. I understand my macro is not gosu x2 level, but I really don't think that is the problem, as my opponent's macro isn't pinpoint accurate either. We are both in platinum league, if that matters any. Any advice would really be appreciated.
http://drop.sc/241150
http://drop.sc/241151
http://drop.sc/241152
http://drop.sc/241153
Now, here is one replay of me attempting to do the muta/base race style with great success. I believe my opponent misclicked his army while attacking my natural, but I don't think it would have made much of a difference. (Also, I forgot ling speed. ;D)
http://drop.sc/241154
I would really prefer to be able to hold this all-in without base racing, as I feel it is very gimmicky (especially with mutas, as if I can't reliably scout the robo, it's not a reliable way to handle the all-in or other all-ins that may be coming my way). On that note, any help that anyone can give me to holding the immortal/sentry all-in in a "straight-up" manner with roach/ling is greatly appreciated. I know my macro needs to be good, I know I need to waste forcefields, I know I need to flank. I feel like I'm doing these things reasonably well for my skill level, and am still getting steamrolled when I respond in this manner. Please halp.
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just outpowering with roach/ling is the only good way to go at it I think.
First of all it's solid vs any other stuff as well which some funky ideas can't say. Secondly it's probably most effective because it doesn't waste much money on certain techs etc.
Stuff like baneling bombs is just not reliably because the tech takes too long and protoss micro can pretty much invalidate the tactic. Plus protoss can easily switch to stalker heavy instead of a sentry heavy composition if they see anything funky.
The VOD in the topic boongboong nearly held it and he would have if he:
- got ranged attack instead of carapace
- used a couple queens/spines in the defense, queens are quite fine combat units against this attack and if protoss doesn't take a fast third i recommend making 2 extra queens for defense, they are good against air and good against later timing attacks. They are especially great as they let you focus the warp prism which is good if they are using it to save immortals or even better if it's their only way to reinforce.
- make sure the creepspread is good and prevent a pylon being put close to your base.
Basetrade methods can also work but they are a bit gimmicky I think and if protoss responds well he should win i think
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I really, really dislike trying to fight it head on with roach ling. Ret a couple of days ago was streaming and got hit with immortal sentry on Ohana. He was 77/92 supply at 8 minutes, maxed out at like 11:20 ish on roach ling, had a good concave and forced the protoss to delay his commitment to attacking for a good minute or so (and was maxed as toss pushed into his third)....and got crushed. After the game his comment was, "I guess I should've pulled back once and then re-engaged? *sigh*"
I'm not convinced it would've mattered and I've seen Ret get crushed by immortal sentry over and over throughout the past few months by trying to fight it straight up with roach ling.
I know Idra has commented on immortal sentry and said that ling+bane+drops or ling/infestor (fungal the sentries) are the counters to it as long as you scout it in time.
I, personally, (low masters) have had success with ling/infestor myself, but you need to scout the build asap and immediately grab all your gases and tech as fast as possible. I often skip roach warren if I scout double gas at natural and have 1-1 on my lings as well (and a macro hatch). Even if the protoss takes a third instead of attacking I think I'm still in a pretty good position as it's easy to drone up at that point and you can start your hive quickly.
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EPT
