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Italy12246 Posts
By execute perfectly i meant execute better than your opponent, kinda like when P defends a 1/1/1. I can defend random ladder joe's 111's but a progamer would beat me every time even if i knew before the game it was coming.
It's not only hoping Protoss fucks up his ff's, it's about picking the right fight at the right place, and being able to set it up, rather than waiting with all your roaches sitting at your third.
That said yes, there's openings that aren't 3hatch no gas into roach that make holding far easier, especially ling/baneling stuff and some insanely greedy mutalisk builds...that should be obvious since that army is made to destroy roaches and nothing else Z has.
Also i'm really skeptical about muta builds against it. For one you can't do them against four gate->immortal timing, and ideally you would prefer to just slightly deviate from your build to account for the 4gate and then deviate back into your standard defense, and secondly doing them just when seeing 2 gasses is fairly unreliable in my opinion.
That said, i'm always on the other said so eh.
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Yeah, Teoita's totally right. In fun news, I actually played a game in an online tourney against MVPTAiLS, he did a slight variation of this all in (only 2 immortals, all 4 gas taken by 5:00 but only 2 in every geyser), moved out just after 9:00 and crushed me. Because of his pylon block I was actually very far behind in the early game (I think taking the third first is worse for the economy than just making 4 lings + a queen then taking your natural; stupid maynarding kills drone count).
Replay
A few perfect forcefields later and I lose. I didn't set up my flank well, but honestly he had like 10 FF's left AFTER forcefielding both sides, I was dead no matter what. You definitely have to outplay your opponent or just baserace 
I'm pretty convinced that ling/bane is the way to hold this. You get an 8:00 macro hatch, etc. Also, I'm considering drone scouting in ZvP so that I can go hatch first if he goes nexus first, not sure how that will actually work though...
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Italy12246 Posts
Problem with going away from a roach opening in general is that anything else, especially ling/bane builds, are really unexplored. It would require Z to rebuild their macro openings from scratch or close to it, because you can't go either ling/bane OR roach depending on whether you scout an immortal allin or not. You have to commit to one of the two before the P shows his hand, and there are very very few people in the world that know the style enough to have a good idea of how to react to all the different possible p builds.
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Hey any of you ever consider hydra ling against the immortal/sentry allin? It's really amazing at holding it off cleanly. It's actually insane. If hydra speed was in WoL this sort of composition could actually be viable for things other than holding off allns T_T.
I've been experimenting with something that Zenio did a long time ago but I can't really figure out all the scouting indicators for it, and I don't know how well hydra ling would hold up against other pushes or whether I could even get hydras out in time to stop some of the crazy allins like 7 gate.
You take 1 gas @ 430 and add 3 more @ lair. Speed first then lair. Macro hatch @8:00 (standard yay). Then u frontload overlords, plant a spire and a den when the lair pops, and sack your ovies @ 7:20. So far I have it that if you see an allin then you frontload like 10/12 hydras and build lings with the spare minerals. I'm pretty sure that there might be a place to also take a 4th @9:00 because I was usually floating around 400/500 with all the gas gone - either that or take a 5th gas. But TBH I don't want to put too much gas into hydras. They 're really efficient at destroying gateway compositions though.
Once you hold off the push you take your 3rd's gas, drone your 4th for gas, maybe even take a 5th for the gas (yay), place 2 evos for ling upgrades, start spire +1 and then make mutas. Pretty much game, you can bust down the front pretty damn easily with around 11 mutas, leftover hydras, and lings.
At least if he takes a third you can transition painlessly into mass muta.
How do you think that Zerg will have to rebuild their macro openings in order to play a ling bane style? Faster 4th and macro hatch?
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On October 07 2012 01:11 Mavvie wrote:
(I think taking the third first is worse for the economy than just making 4 lings + a queen then taking your natural; stupid maynarding kills drone count).
The additional maynarding distance compared with having a base at the natural is about 10 ingame seconds which is just a bit over 5 minerals per drone; maybe 7 or so. If you do the build right, you'll be maynarding about half of the drones to the 3rd. So you're looking at about 7x9; 63ish minerals less compared to having the 16 hatch at the natural. You'll get a faster larva inject and creep spread on that base also.
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On October 21 2012 00:32 osiris17 wrote:
The additional maynarding distance compared with having a base at the natural is about 10 ingame seconds which is just a bit over 5 minerals per drone; maybe 7 or so. If you do the build right, you'll be maynarding about half of the drones to the 3rd. So you're looking at about 7x9; 63ish minerals less compared to having the 16 hatch at the natural. You'll get a faster larva inject and creep spread on that base also.
You will also avoid oversaturation in your main base. And you can go for a 15 pool instead of 14.
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On October 20 2012 20:16 Qwyn wrote:
Hey any of you ever consider hydra ling against the immortal/sentry allin? It's really amazing at holding it off cleanly. It's actually insane. If hydra speed was in WoL this sort of composition could actually be viable for things other than holding off allns T_T.
I've been experimenting with something that Zenio did a long time ago but I can't really figure out all the scouting indicators for it, and I don't know how well hydra ling would hold up against other pushes or whether I could even get hydras out in time to stop some of the crazy allins like 7 gate.
You take 1 gas @ 430 and add 3 more @ lair. Speed first then lair. Macro hatch @8:00 (standard yay). Then u frontload overlords, plant a spire and a den when the lair pops, and sack your ovies @ 7:20. So far I have it that if you see an allin then you frontload like 10/12 hydras and build lings with the spare minerals. I'm pretty sure that there might be a place to also take a 4th @9:00 because I was usually floating around 400/500 with all the gas gone - either that or take a 5th gas. But TBH I don't want to put too much gas into hydras. They 're really efficient at destroying gateway compositions though.
Once you hold off the push you take your 3rd's gas, drone your 4th for gas, maybe even take a 5th for the gas (yay), place 2 evos for ling upgrades, start spire +1 and then make mutas. Pretty much game, you can bust down the front pretty damn easily with around 11 mutas, leftover hydras, and lings.
At least if he takes a third you can transition painlessly into mass muta.
How do you think that Zerg will have to rebuild their macro openings in order to play a ling bane style? Faster 4th and macro hatch?
That's most....interesting
I tried a different build than you; using standard stephano timings you know, 2x gas at 6:30, 2 more at 7:30, staying on 4 gas and it seems to be, well, really fucking effective.
I kind of outrank the guy who I'm playing against, but he executed it decently well IMO. Hydras with range came in time, and if I took gas faster I could get +1/+1 (melee + ranged attacks) which would kind of crush it. What I've noticed is that if you're trading lings but keeping the hydras alive you'll reach critical mass so fast that no amount of units without AoE can combat it.
I think the magical number is ~15 hydras so you can get a fast infestor/hive tech to outright crush him. You can't make more hydras because, well, every hydra left over after his attack is wasted gas really. The strength of the hydra isn't its strength, but more its range. Even if he forcefields, you're still doing damage, which is awesome.
I think that taking a 9:30 fourth is good too, because you can try to force an engagement there which is usually more open (take cloud kingdom. The fourth is WAY more open than your third, especially down the alley).
Defeating the push still comes down to macro, though. If you don't break 70 food @ 8:00, and if you miss ANY timing, you're fucked. But that's always true I suppose. It was kind of fun practicing ZvP, getting to perfect my timings and larvae management. I went 11 overpool 18 hatch because he did mass pylon blocking every game, and 11 OP is good against that. I believe I played 4 games against him, here they are:
Game 1: http://drop.sc/266323
I overmake hydras and pay the price; his colossi destroy all of them for free because of one bad engagement.
Game 2: http://drop.sc/266328
Improving!
Game 3: http://drop.sc/266329
This feels like the optimal way to pull it off. Decent macro, great hydra timing, everything lines up perfectly.
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Fast roach drops also may work (symbol did it against squirtle or parting), obviously ff is what makes this build powerful and if you're getting drops anyway maybe you can get some banes although you're already pushing it with 300 gas spent on drop upgrades. Muta builds are probably your best bet though..
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^Where did he do it?
Roach drops are okay, but have the same problem as baneling drops: the timing. By the time you get drop tech finished, your third is dead. Same with muta builds; your only option is to baserace with them.
I actually really like the hydra option, I didn't expect it to be true but it shuts this down hard. A speedling flank and it's a free win.
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Sen tried hydra ling the other day in tourney (I forget vs who) on ohana and lost. I don't know if Sen messed up or something, but it didn't work.
I haven't watched the drg vs mc osl games, but did mc use immortal sentry at all?
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On October 21 2012 02:03 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:16 Qwyn wrote:
Hey any of you ever consider hydra ling against the immortal/sentry allin? It's really amazing at holding it off cleanly. It's actually insane. If hydra speed was in WoL this sort of composition could actually be viable for things other than holding off allns T_T.
I've been experimenting with something that Zenio did a long time ago but I can't really figure out all the scouting indicators for it, and I don't know how well hydra ling would hold up against other pushes or whether I could even get hydras out in time to stop some of the crazy allins like 7 gate.
You take 1 gas @ 430 and add 3 more @ lair. Speed first then lair. Macro hatch @8:00 (standard yay). Then u frontload overlords, plant a spire and a den when the lair pops, and sack your ovies @ 7:20. So far I have it that if you see an allin then you frontload like 10/12 hydras and build lings with the spare minerals. I'm pretty sure that there might be a place to also take a 4th @9:00 because I was usually floating around 400/500 with all the gas gone - either that or take a 5th gas. But TBH I don't want to put too much gas into hydras. They 're really efficient at destroying gateway compositions though.
Once you hold off the push you take your 3rd's gas, drone your 4th for gas, maybe even take a 5th for the gas (yay), place 2 evos for ling upgrades, start spire +1 and then make mutas. Pretty much game, you can bust down the front pretty damn easily with around 11 mutas, leftover hydras, and lings.
At least if he takes a third you can transition painlessly into mass muta.
How do you think that Zerg will have to rebuild their macro openings in order to play a ling bane style? Faster 4th and macro hatch? That's most....interesting I tried a different build than you; using standard stephano timings you know, 2x gas at 6:30, 2 more at 7:30, staying on 4 gas and it seems to be, well, really fucking effective. I kind of outrank the guy who I'm playing against, but he executed it decently well IMO. Hydras with range came in time, and if I took gas faster I could get +1/+1 (melee + ranged attacks) which would kind of crush it. What I've noticed is that if you're trading lings but keeping the hydras alive you'll reach critical mass so fast that no amount of units without AoE can combat it. I think the magical number is ~15 hydras so you can get a fast infestor/hive tech to outright crush him. You can't make more hydras because, well, every hydra left over after his attack is wasted gas really. The strength of the hydra isn't its strength, but more its range. Even if he forcefields, you're still doing damage, which is awesome. I think that taking a 9:30 fourth is good too, because you can try to force an engagement there which is usually more open (take cloud kingdom. The fourth is WAY more open than your third, especially down the alley). Defeating the push still comes down to macro, though. If you don't break 70 food @ 8:00, and if you miss ANY timing, you're fucked. But that's always true I suppose. It was kind of fun practicing ZvP, getting to perfect my timings and larvae management. I went 11 overpool 18 hatch because he did mass pylon blocking every game, and 11 OP is good against that. I believe I played 4 games against him, here they are: Game 1: http://drop.sc/266323I overmake hydras and pay the price; his colossi destroy all of them for free because of one bad engagement. Game 2: http://drop.sc/266328Improving! Game 3: http://drop.sc/266329This feels like the optimal way to pull it off. Decent macro, great hydra timing, everything lines up perfectly.
Yeah those are about the timings that I have, although I really think that the 1 gas @ 4:30 is stronger because it gets Hydra tech out a bit earlier without sacrificing too much. Right now what I am doing is spire and hydra tech, while taking the other 3 gas @ Lair and leaving 3rd gasless. I pump out around 15 hydras and lings while taking 4th @9:30-10:00 (macro hatch at 8:00) and once I hold the push I take all gas and transition into mutas. It's really up to you what you do after that.
It's suprising how strong this is against gateway centric styles (yay for current meta).
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Qwyn, while you get the hydra tech out faster, it does hurt your economy significantly. The standard 7:20 lair off a 6:00 double gas is more than enough time to get hydras + range, and even +1 missiles! I've used 4:30 gas speed->lair macro, and it costs you around 8 drones, unless you can skip the roach warren (ie. you don't get 4gate +1 or 7gated)
Your timings work, and you get hydras out faster...but what do the faster hydras accomplish? It's like 6 pool to deal with a proxy 2 gate.
Also, you'll have one hell of a time defending a plain 7gate, even with the fast speed. Like, it works, but is pretty suboptimal IMO
I think the best transition is into fast infestors. Infestors are great against everything and you can deny his third every time if he does a failed 2 base all in. You can go fast hive if he takes a third. If you keep your infestors alive and trade energy + lings for his gas units, you're golden.
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On October 21 2012 06:15 arcane1129 wrote:
Sen tried hydra ling the other day in tourney (I forget vs who) on ohana and lost. I don't know if Sen messed up or something, but it didn't work.
I haven't watched the drg vs mc osl games, but did mc use immortal sentry at all?
yeah the standard 2base sentry/immortal on ohana but he lost...
1) mc's push was slightly delayed by standing at his watch tower for a bit of time...not sure why
2) he engaged DRG army in an area why he can be flanked very easily. plus DRG did very well to bait out a bunch of useless ffs. sure MC's forcefield are good but he could not make headway as his forcefields start running out from being used inefficiently like that.
3) DRG anticipated the push anyway. MC alr lost a bunch of games (gglord/festor/spine turtling push and ling/muta if i remb), and was shaken. You can see him start preemptively massing ling/roachs just before MC push out.
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hydra ling with 4th queen for creep spread should be very strong.... I definitely need to try this.
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What about the nydus play that TLO has showcased? Use nydus to to counter attack with roach ling while sacking your expansions and holding with spines on a ramp. Go back inside the nydus if he tries to bust the spines.
Although if the Protoss knows this is coming he can sack his natural and build cannons in his main followed by warp in sentries to protect the main ramp. The game becomes 1 base vs 1 base which favors the toss.
The next step for the Zerg might be to research drop to bypass the ramp if it stays 1 base vs 1 base for too long.
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On October 22 2012 22:11 AzureD wrote:
What about the nydus play that TLO has showcased? Use nydus to to counter attack with roach ling while sacking your expansions and holding with spines on a ramp. Go back inside the nydus if he tries to bust the spines.
Although if the Protoss knows this is coming he can sack his natural and build cannons in his main followed by warp in sentries to protect the main ramp. The game becomes 1 base vs 1 base which favors the toss.
The next step for the Zerg might be to research drop to bypass the ramp if it stays 1 base vs 1 base for too long.
I dont think this is viable since immortal sentries have a warp prism nowadays. So protoss can go into the main using the warp prism, and zerg loose. It works mainly thanks to the surprise it provokes. But it cannot be a standard answer to immortal sentry all in.
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I have been playing around with my openings in ZvP, and I have to say I may have recently convinced myself to drop 3 hatch completely, not quite sure yet though...
Going with a 2 base gas opener gives me the opportunity to threaten a bane bust at a timing where the typical FFE build only had 2 units on the field, before warp gate is done. This means usually 1, sometimes 2 force fields are possible. A key part of this is to convince the Protoss player that I am looking to expand and kill his scouting probe before he can get more information.
Still, some Protoss players are quite crafty at getting that probe through, and they will often throw down 2-3 extra cannons and chrono out an extra sentry. 1 or 2 force fields is a hugely favorable trade for me, especially if the cyber core is part of the wall-in (killing the cyber core before warp gate finishes is usually gg), but 3+ force fields is generally a busted bust.
That's where Infestor tech comes in.
I have just been leaving my ovie in Ps nat, even until death for the full scout of what he's doing. If I see an adequate defense put up, rather than make banelings, I just tech to Lair, take a late 3rd, saturate everything, and spam spine crawlers/infestors (even to the point where I have no actual combat units since they're so worthless) off 3 base/6 gas. This gives somewhere in the range of 15-20 spines and 8-10 infestors with the typical flow of these games. I am still losing as many as I win with this style, but considering it is completely new to me, it seems promising. As soon as I hold off whatever attack Protoss comes with (it can really be anything at this point, but immortal/sentry is a common one), I tech to Hive, keep pumping Infestors, and double expand again. Catapulting the game into T3 tech as early as the 15 minute mark at times.
I can't emphasize enough that this is new and I am still feeling things out, but so far, it looks promising.
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On October 23 2012 00:28 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 22:11 AzureD wrote:
What about the nydus play that TLO has showcased? Use nydus to to counter attack with roach ling while sacking your expansions and holding with spines on a ramp. Go back inside the nydus if he tries to bust the spines.
Although if the Protoss knows this is coming he can sack his natural and build cannons in his main followed by warp in sentries to protect the main ramp. The game becomes 1 base vs 1 base which favors the toss.
The next step for the Zerg might be to research drop to bypass the ramp if it stays 1 base vs 1 base for too long. I dont think this is viable since immortal sentries have a warp prism nowadays. So protoss can go into the main using the warp prism, and zerg loose. It works mainly thanks to the surprise it provokes. But it cannot be a standard answer to immortal sentry all in.
I don't think this will help that much as his mining will be disrupted by the counter attack and he either must spend money defending his base or lose his workers. You might get one warp in past the spine crawlers but this is not too likely to defeat the base defenders he will be making.
Also the interesting thing about nydus is that you can make it wherever your army is currently at so you can call back your whole army in short notice.
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My most effective build in ZvP is 2 base ling hydra. Why ? because it requires the protoss to exactly scout it at the right time and go fast colo. If you scout hes going fast colo means he will lack mobility and units to pressure you from taking a 3rd. In that situation I chose to go mutas and if I see him going heavily on stalkers and colo then I'll go corruptor instead of mutas and roach. 2 base hydra ling timing will come sooner than any protoss rushing colo, so you will kill most likely his sentrys, his core, few zealots and stalkers while u expend and go for mutas. It's not standard and as it's not standard thats what makes it very good. I'm playing top master level.
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EPT
