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On November 19 2012 03:13 Siggeh wrote:
Anyone got a fresh replay of high lvl ZvP where the zerg defends immortal sentry allin on the map Cloud Kingdom. I want a game where the protoss don't fuck up with force fields.
And very important that the map is Cloud kingdom thx.
I'm very interested in this as well. The third just feels impossible to hold, three FFs (one bwtn hatch and minerals, two on other side of hatch) cuts you off and lets him take away half the health on the hatch. He does this twice and you lose the hatch. Nearly impossible to stop unless you set up a double flank early, or have a ton of spines placed further forward than sen's two right next to the hatch. Worse, once you lose the hatch, you're behind in production and just lose, unlike +1 4-gate shenanigans where toss mostly wants to back off after taking out the hatch.
I'm seriously considering 2base muta or taking the third at the 3- or 9-o'clock bases on Cloud.
Unrelated: anyone try bane busting and/or countering for a base trade yet? This is after he pushes out. I don't know how the two layer wall influences it but it seems like it is important for saving toss' main against a straight counter (time for 4 sentry warpin) and thus any non-muta basetrade is dead before it starts.
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I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
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On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote:
I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer.
So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work.
Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
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On November 19 2012 12:29 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote:
I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer. So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work. Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
There must be a tweak for 3 base, starting lair and bane nest earlier ~ 6- 7 mins.
I wouldn't call landmines a coinflip, you might not be able to guarantee 100% trajectory or more likely full damage to sentries, but a competent zerg who's experienced with banemines could pull it off? You only need 1 success with 2 banes and you might have as many as 4 tries as he moves out from his base.
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On November 19 2012 12:46 ncsix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 12:29 Moosegills wrote:On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote:
I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer. So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work. Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be. There must be a tweak for 3 base, starting lair and bane nest earlier ~ 6- 7 mins. I wouldn't call landmines a coinflip, you might not be able to guarantee 100% trajectory or more likely full damage to sentries, but a competent zerg who's experienced with banemines could pull it off? You only need 1 success with 2 banes and you might have as many as 4 tries as he moves out from his base.
You also need to keep in mind tho, the standard timings for gasless 3 hatch are standard for a reason that they can deal with the whole range of builds that protoss can do. If you say that you should get an earlier lair to get burrow faster etc, you would say have to make double gas at 5:40 instead of 6:00. The problem with this is that it hurts your economy because you will have less minerals and when you would be making the decision to get the earlier gases, you can't know that the toss is doing a tech build themselves since you take your 2 gases (assuming you changed the timing to 5:40 instead) before the toss takes his natural gases (if he plans on it) most of the time.
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On November 19 2012 09:24 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 03:13 Siggeh wrote:
Anyone got a fresh replay of high lvl ZvP where the zerg defends immortal sentry allin on the map Cloud Kingdom. I want a game where the protoss don't fuck up with force fields.
And very important that the map is Cloud kingdom thx. I'm very interested in this as well. The third just feels impossible to hold, three FFs (one bwtn hatch and minerals, two on other side of hatch) cuts you off and lets him take away half the health on the hatch. He does this twice and you lose the hatch. Nearly impossible to stop unless you set up a double flank early, or have a ton of spines placed further forward than sen's two right next to the hatch. Worse, once you lose the hatch, you're behind in production and just lose, unlike +1 4-gate shenanigans where toss mostly wants to back off after taking out the hatch. I'm seriously considering 2base muta or taking the third at the 3- or 9-o'clock bases on Cloud. Unrelated: anyone try bane busting and/or countering for a base trade yet? This is after he pushes out. I don't know how the two layer wall influences it but it seems like it is important for saving toss' main against a straight counter (time for 4 sentry warpin) and thus any non-muta basetrade is dead before it starts.
Really? I don't have any replays of Cloud (I rarely get sentry/immortaled, but after BWC that's bound to change), but I never lose to this on ladder. Optionally use Sen's gas timings (5:45 double gas, lair -> speed and optional double evo + double gas at ~7:15). I just cut drones at ~65, make a round of speedlings, then a round of roaches. Stay on 4 gasses, engage midmap and bait out forcefields. I'll post some replays tomorrow, but I honestly don't have trouble against it often. I usually win outright, and I imagine this is what it takes on Cloud too (if he gets to your third, you lose).
I don't like those other options man  I'm thinking 7RR
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I noticed that DRG v Creator in Group A, RO16 this season of GSL had really odd builds game one and two - it seemed like he was attempting to blindly counter this all-in with fast lings and roaches as soon as Creator moved out. It worked in Group E in RO32 but Creator did some basic metagaming and opened with stargate play instead which hard countered DRG's opening.
Parting's all-in is just so strange - safe against early pool builds because of the in base forge, safe against anything that isn't 3hatch (well, as safe as any other FFE is), and considering Parting's godly FF, safe against ling/roaches all the way to the enemy base. Even on Daybreak!
If zerg attempts to deviate too hard from standard droning and jump on their own sword economically, Parting can just take a third instead. It just hits at such a weird time for 3hatch zerg T___T
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Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
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On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site)
Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
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i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me.
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On November 19 2012 16:44 psychotics wrote:
i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me.
hydras are a huge commit. if the protoss just back up and expand, you do any shit with hydra...
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On November 19 2012 16:58 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 16:44 psychotics wrote:
i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me. hydras are a huge commit. if the protoss just back up and expand, you do any shit with hydra...
To the people saying "oh they scout hydras they just back off or expand..
The immortal sentry allin has 2 pretty big flaws that need to be exploited.
1) mobility: immortals and sentries are slowish and cant fight in the open so must be near walls or chokes to actually fight.
2) ALMOST 0 SCOUTING. this build does not come with an observer and so they will not see hydras or anything after u deal with the intial scouting probe or zealot.
with this in mind hydras actually can be pretty useful
no observer means u if u can push ur creep out from ur third you will have more room to get into a good engagement and im pretty sure they will not have colosus out in a timely manner to keep you from denying their third for a while. it will be ok to once defending the allin use ur hydras to deny the third at this point the hydras are meaningless units and its ok to commit them and lose them becuase after the intial hold all ur gas goes into infestor and hive. and play out the game normally from there. (obviously this is all theoritical because there are no top level zergs doing this because its risky if they dont go immortal sentry allin)
edit: also hydras immortals and sentries all have same movement speed off creep with hydras being faster on creep
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On November 19 2012 17:06 psychotics wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 16:58 Insoleet wrote:On November 19 2012 16:44 psychotics wrote:
i just have to ask the question, please no hate but in all honesty im suprised this hasnt come up some in games but why not go for hydra/ling? hydra ling in theory should beat this and also makes warp prism micro on immortals risky/impossible. I know everyone thinking it "hydras suck" but if you know someones going to go sentry/immortal allin aka ur playing parting, fast hydra ling should give u a win/hold. ive been playing around with it alittle in mid masters and it usually will hold unless godly ff or a huge mistake by me. hydras are a huge commit. if the protoss just back up and expand, you do any shit with hydra... To the people saying "oh they scout hydras they just back off or expand.. The immortal sentry allin has 2 pretty big flaws that need to be exploited. 1) mobility: immortals and sentries are slowish and cant fight in the open so must be near walls or chokes to actually fight. 2) ALMOST 0 SCOUTING. this build does not come with an observer and so they will not see hydras or anything after u deal with the intial scouting probe or zealot. with this in mind hydras actually can be pretty useful no observer means u if u can push ur creep out from ur third you will have more room to get into a good engagement and im pretty sure they will not have colosus out in a timely manner to keep you from denying their third for a while. it will be ok to once defending the allin use ur hydras to deny the third at this point the hydras are meaningless units and its ok to commit them and lose them becuase after the intial hold all ur gas goes into infestor and hive. and play out the game normally from there. (obviously this is all theoritical because there are no top level zergs doing this because its risky if they dont go immortal sentry allin) edit: also hydras immortals and sentries all have same movement speed off creep with hydras being faster on creep
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
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On November 19 2012 12:29 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 12:09 ncsix wrote:
I've a metagame theory that since most immortal-sentry all-ins mainly will be observer-less (or arriving later during the push), wouldn't it be cost-effective to include baneling mines across the map?
If it works, you get easy sentry kills and therefore stop the all-in, if not, you would at least still have ling/roaches to flank and defend.
If you see the push at 9:00, its easy enough to start morphing existing lings and strategically place the bane mines.
Unfortunately, I don't have a replay to back this theory up, but its an invitation for players to try and see the results?
When someone does a sentry immortal all in, their robo production goes as follows - Immo, Immo, Immo, prism, observer. So lets take a look at the timings, if the protoss does the good version of the immo allin, they move out at 850. If they move out at this time they can usually be at your base just before roach speed is done (assuming standard gas timings). So roach speed is a 110 second upgrade. burrow is a 100 second upgrade. Due to the nature of the timing of the observer, for baneling landmines to work they would have to be on the protoss's side of the map. If you factor in the morphing time for the baneling, having to have them on opponents side of the map, and the research time of burrow, it won't work. Also in general baneling landmines are a coinflip in that you can't guarantee where the toss army is going to be.
Perhaps worse than the coinflip is that if this works even once in a pro game, you can bet they'll just go obs before prism, or even before the 3rd immortal if necessary. In all cases, the long-term problem is that burrowed banes can be easily countered because they already have the robo.
Or they'll just take a weird path instead of a-moving. Or just spread the sentries a little. Too many little holes to be a reliable solution.
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On November 19 2012 16:02 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site) Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind.
What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
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On November 19 2012 19:42 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 16:02 arcane1129 wrote:On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site) Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind. What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45.
I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors.
So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though.
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On November 19 2012 20:13 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 19:42 Superiorwolf wrote:On November 19 2012 16:02 arcane1129 wrote:On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site) Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind. What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45. I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors. So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though.
this is very interesting.. can u provide some more details please? is this basically 3 base (+ 1 macro hatch) rush to infestors with mass spines? i assume this style is rochless and the lings are not upgraded..isn't it? i should search vs suppy vs parting games.
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On November 20 2012 00:31 Tribuno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 20:13 NeonFox wrote:On November 19 2012 19:42 Superiorwolf wrote:On November 19 2012 16:02 arcane1129 wrote:On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site) Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind. What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45. I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors. So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though. this is very interesting.. can u provide some more details please? is this basically 3 base (+ 1 macro hatch) rush to infestors with mass spines? i assume this style is rochless and the lings are not upgraded..isn't it? i should search vs suppy vs parting games.
Just go back a couple of pages, I linked the VOD
Oh and what's up Suppy? Nice job at WCS =) You beasted pretty hard.
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On November 19 2012 18:23 6xFPCs wrote:
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution.
As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS.
Here're some examples from my own play vs a masters toss going reactionary hydra, discussed here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647¤tpage=12#226
Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out:
http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game.
http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements.
http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily.
http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately.
With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone.
Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build.
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On November 20 2012 00:31 Tribuno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 20:13 NeonFox wrote:On November 19 2012 19:42 Superiorwolf wrote:On November 19 2012 16:02 arcane1129 wrote:On November 19 2012 15:14 Hydro033 wrote:
Suppy, in BWC, did a 3 base, mass spine (like 18 of them) +ling and infestor to hold Partings world renown sentry/immo all-in. I think this is worth investigating. Requires a boss chain fungal on sentries though. (See suppy v Parting on Antiga, replays on BWC site) Read the previous page in this thread for comments about that. I haven't watched it myself, but from what people have said and based on parting's interview about it, suppy watched partings game vs scarlett and went balls to the wall to try to stop it without knowing for sure it was coming. If parting had expanded instead, suppy would've been pretty behind. What I did is not blind. You can tell if it's a robo expand or a robo sentry immortal all in based on if they stop making probes at 7:45. I'm nowhere near Suppy's level or gamesense and my opponents are very far from being pros as well, but against mid-high masters it works very well. Just spam lings on 4 hatches and plop down 5-6 spines minimum at the third and nat while getting infestors. So for many people in this thread this should work well, just keep up on your injects, don't be afraid to make a ton of spines when you recognize the build and hold until infestors. I try to sneak in a +1 melee or +1 carapace after lair as well, not sure which one is better or if it's to risky to work every time though. this is very interesting.. can u provide some more details please? is this basically 3 base (+ 1 macro hatch) rush to infestors with mass spines? i assume this style is rochless and the lings are not upgraded..isn't it? i should search vs suppy vs parting games.
Standard 3base into double gas at 6:00, if I see double gas at natural I get +1 melee after lair, if not lair first. 2 more gas when I start lair, macro hatch a bit after that. Then as soon as I recognize the push is coming pump lings from the 4 hatches (a 4th queen is actually a good idea after a while since lings don't cost much money but many larva). Infestor pit as soon as the lair is finished.
And yeah I skip the roach warren if I see double gas, only make it if one or no gas. And I don't get roach speed until much later or don't even make any roaches if I don't have to.
Suppy gets his lair waaaaaay sooner though here are the vods.
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EPT
