EPT[G] ZvP: Defeating the Sentry/Immortal All-in - Page 3
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Luxuria.
Australia3 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:35 blade55555 wrote: 2 base ling/infestor will crush it but you won't get 3 base infestors out in time unless you are like not droning and go lair really fast. You can get infestors out to stop the push (3 base), but you just to spine up like crazy in order to delay until they arrive. | ||
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Genovi
Sweden388 Posts
Glad to hear it!  Yeah, honestly it's not that good an all-in unless executed perfectly. And with proper macro and strategy it should be easy to hold! I still lose to it a lot, hooray for being a noob! (Y)So when you say mutas really work, do you mean with Nestea's opening, or a more standard gasless 3 hatch build into fast lair/mutas? Ive made my own response. I open standard 3 hatch and lately instead of 2 gas at 6 i get 3 gas at 6.30. So when i see robo and 2 gas i get my 3 gas and an extra queen and go up to hive asap and start spreading creep like a madman. So i get a roach warren at like 7 ish just in case but go double evo. At half lairtech i get rest of my gas and squeeze in an extra hatch. Mutas should be making around the time he is at midmap so you can either try to delay him and kill it with mutas or go for a ling counter and spine up at your nat. Works like a charm | ||
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Genovi
Sweden388 Posts
On August 16 2012 14:53 kaokentake wrote: as a high master toss who usually does immortal all-ins (and i garuntee i could probably mop the floor with any diamond zerg using it... no offense just saying all guides written by diamonds should be taken with a grain of salt) I will say something that usually completely rapes me most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural. pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more. mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields Im sorry but this is not a very nice mindset coming in to a guide like this. It is obvious that the guide is not written based on his personal games. He obviously studied a lot of games writing this guide up and no matter what league you are it should provide you with a good framework to work from. How dare you come in here on a high horse with a master acc and say the guide should be taken with a grain of salt just because the writer is in diamond league? | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 16 2012 11:22 Belial88 wrote: Immortals rape armored units, like queens... Forcefields, sentries, stalkers, they all rape queens too. A zealot beats a queen 1v1. Sounds like you just played bads ;/ This part bothered me, especially because you are great guide writer, and seems you know a lot about the game, but you don't know that Queens aren't light nor armored. They are just Psionic, they don't have natural counter. Sure, Forcefields, Guardian Shield and Zealots that do great damage beat Queens, but Immortals and Stalkers really aren't doing much against them. Not that I disagree with you, Queens are pretty useless, it just gives wrong impression on what units are good against the others. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On August 16 2012 18:22 Genovi wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2012 14:53 kaokentake wrote: as a high master toss who usually does immortal all-ins (and i garuntee i could probably mop the floor with any diamond zerg using it... no offense just saying all guides written by diamonds should be taken with a grain of salt) I will say something that usually completely rapes me most zergs dont do this but ive faced it a few times fast 3hatches, fast 2gas, 2queens only, and lair before speed. then 2more gasses as lairs going up, 45 drones, muta rush its hard to scout the fast lair because of the 5range queen + a couple zerglings. you can barely scout the 2gas in the natural. pump pure drones to 45, then start making lings once you have 45 drones. plus the spire after lair. then as your pumping mutas get up to 52 drones (26 main, 26 natural, which is 1base full saturation) and because your third is vulnerable only send like 8drones to your third until your 100% confident your third is safe then send more. mutas hit by the time immortal sentry comes out. also you only send like 6 drones initially to your third and construct a spine in your natural at about 7minutes. if a super fast 7minute gateway+zealot+few stalker attack hits your third just run away the drones to your natural and mutas should be raping the toss soon who cut plenty to get out a 7minute warpgate zealot attack mutas hit hard and fast, before stargates, before anything. they rape my probes then snipe all my sentrys then speedlings overrun me with no forcefields Im sorry but this is not a very nice mindset coming in to a guide like this. It is obvious that the guide is not written based on his personal games. He obviously studied a lot of games writing this guide up and no matter what league you are it should provide you with a good framework to work from. How dare you come in here on a high horse with a master acc and say the guide should be taken with a grain of salt just because the writer is in diamond league? I couldn't agree more especially when OP is trying to be a "compiler" of resources. When those master players are busy playing their own games, this OP was actually trying to help his fellow Zerg players. Before this thread, we had 12 [H] threads for "immortal sentry" search and literally ZERO [G] threads on this except for comprehensive guide like Belial's. So many players were having trouble with this build, yet not many of those who actually knew the idea how to deal came forward to write a guide. I am glad to have this diamond OP in our community much more than top master who is busy playing. Don't mix this OP with some diamond theorycrafters. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in. To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army. | ||
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ian952
Canada124 Posts
I think that in order to hold an immortal sentry all-in, you just have to have ENOUGH units. By enough, I mean enough stuff to kill him. In my opinion, the units composition does not matter much. You need to delay this push as long as possible to have ENOUGH units. You also need to choose a good location to engage/bait ff. Holding this all-in requires you to have solid larva injects and muti-tasking skills. I think that people in lower leagues tend to lose to this because they just don't have ENOUGH units to kill the main army. The best way to hold this all-in, imo, would be making a large roach ling army then flank the protoss. You should also add 1-3 spines in your third but position them carefully so they dont create a choke for you army. The point I am trying to make is that players in lower leagues should be focusing on their macro skills instead of messing with the army composition(like ling/bling) to hold this all-in. With good control and macro, you will be able to hold this all-in most of the time. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:55 Walitgon wrote: In my experience the above is wrong insfoar that drops will be ready in time and wrong insofar that you can in fact beat a toss that has just destroyed your third. I haven't got time to post a detailed guide but baneling drops are fully viable against early sentry immortal (in my experience - GM SEA, GM-level NA) The reason why people think it is not ready in time, is because they use standard Stephano timings on gas. If you are comfortable and competent with a ling-bling style, you drop gasses earlier because you don't need an enormous economy to support the very inefficient Roach. If you watch Dimaga's stream, you'll see him holding 2 base all-ins with hardly any saturation on his third. My personal build is to go double gas at 36 but massively delay your 3rd and 4th gas. If you see gasses at his nat (which he'll have to take by the time you're @100 gas if he's doing an early sentry immortal). Then you go lair first and it is out WAY in time. This is not also to mention the fact that if you commit to a ling heavy style, you can MASSIVELY stall your opponents push. That is because, as mentioned in the OP, sentry immortal is very susceptible to mass ling. Finally, MANY a time I have committed to this style and have indeed not gotten drops out of time, due to sloppiness or a misread on my part, etc. I have lost my third and gone ahead and crushed him. The reason is simple and it's sad that so many people refuse to challenge the metagame and realise the following. Ling-bling is the natural counter to everything in the sentry immortal push. So long as you can get over forcefields, you'll beat it EASILY in a straight up fight. So if you have had mining at your third for some time and are caught with your pants down massing your army, you should still have a sizeable army, and even you lose your third then and there, you should still be able to defeat his army if you chase it down. I have done this many times and it has worked.... My 2 cents. *ling-bling-drops advocate checking in* Very interesting. This is what I had hoped for: as the discussion continues, I'm becoming more of a believer in baneling drops. At least, I'm sure they'd work at my level, noobs move out at 10:30 haha. I think the answer to beat this all-in is definitely with high-tech, flying units. Why not broodlords?  just kidding, but drops and mutas should be quite viable.On August 16 2012 17:44 Luxuria. wrote: nice!! does stephano style roaches beat this all in? Meh, Stephano goes roach/ling, not just pure roach. So it falls under the first method, trying to get a good engagement with roach/ling. Flanks and creep are key. On August 16 2012 18:08 Genovi wrote: Ive made my own response. I open standard 3 hatch and lately instead of 2 gas at 6 i get 3 gas at 6.30. So when i see robo and 2 gas i get my 3 gas and an extra queen and go up to hive asap and start spreading creep like a madman. So i get a roach warren at like 7 ish just in case but go double evo. At half lairtech i get rest of my gas and squeeze in an extra hatch. Mutas should be making around the time he is at midmap so you can either try to delay him and kill it with mutas or go for a ling counter and spine up at your nat. Works like a charm Ok I'm sure you meant rush lair/spire asap. I've tried this, but you won't get mutas in time. You also don't need a roach warren/evo if you scout double gas at natural. Also, if he's doing an all-in, double evo won't help at all. Good ideas though, honestly this is similar to what I do on ladder if I scout 3 gas by 6:30 (come on protoss, make up your minds!) You have to start lair by 6:45 to have mutas out in time. With your gas timings, your geysers will be halfway done. You won't get lair until ~7:15-7:30. Way too late. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 16 2012 19:08 Orek wrote: I couldn't agree more especially when OP is trying to be a "compiler" of resources. When those master players are busy playing their own games, this OP was actually trying to help his fellow Zerg players. Before this thread, we had 12 [H] threads for "immortal sentry" search and literally ZERO [G] threads on this except for comprehensive guide like Belial's. So many players were having trouble with this build, yet not many of those who actually knew the idea how to deal came forward to write a guide. I am glad to have this diamond OP in our community much more than top master who is busy playing. Don't mix this OP with some diamond theorycrafters. Thanks guys, means a lot! ^^ Although he clearly misinterpreted the OP, I see his point; I wouldn't want to read a guide on some diamond player's unique method of defending this all-in. On August 16 2012 22:54 Chaosvuistje wrote: http://drop.sc/239411 There's a replay showing that drop tech and banelings most definitely can be done in time for the 9:30 push. Infact, it would be more beneficial if he actually attacked right away. In the end I lost due to terrible, terrible control and decision making on my zerglings ( and a supply block right before I was going to make a last huge round of ling-roach. But it shows that it can definitely be used ( if controlled properly, much like the roach-ling way of defending it ) against this all in. To clarify, I took my gas before the 5 minute mark, then had two gas geysers up at 6:00, went speed before lair and still got the drop tech in time for the dreaded 10:15 mark that he can be shelling away at my hatch. If he retreats, fine, I get more time to get a larger army out. If he attacks right then, I should just drop down on the sentries and flood in with my army. Awesome, I'll be sure to check it out once I get back to my computer! Very interesting, I'm liking this banerain idea a lot now. What do you do if he does a robo or twilight expand instead of all in? Mid-master toss here. First of all, this is thread should not be labeled [G] but [D] instead. I think that in order to hold an immortal sentry all-in, you just have to have ENOUGH units. By enough, I mean enough stuff to kill him. In my opinion, the units composition does not matter much. You need to delay this push as long as possible to have ENOUGH units. You also need to choose a good location to engage/bait ff. Holding this all-in requires you to have solid larva injects and muti-tasking skills. I think that people in lower leagues tend to lose to this because they just don't have ENOUGH units to kill the main army. The best way to hold this all-in, imo, would be making a large roach ling army then flank the protoss. You should also add 1-3 spines in your third but position them carefully so they dont create a choke for you army. The point I am trying to make is that players in lower leagues should be focusing on their macro skills instead of messing with the army composition(like ling/bling) to hold this all-in. With good control and macro, you will be able to hold this all-in most of the time. That's why I labelled it both Just not the actual thread title, but I can't edit that and it's no big deal  Yeah you're right about macro, but sentry/immortal is one of those very unforgiving all-ins that if you just 1a into, you'll lose. Even if you're maxed at 10:00. You're right, flanks are everything. However, this might not actually be the best way of defending the all-in. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On August 17 2012 02:45 Mavvie wrote: Awesome, I'll be sure to check it out once I get back to my computer! Very interesting, I'm liking this banerain idea a lot now. What do you do if he does a robo or twilight expand instead of all in? If he goes for an expand, you have drops to pressure. You're safe to transition into post-2base-allin-defending compositions like muta or infestor broodlord. What I like to do if I want to put pressure on him is posture my army out infront of his third, force out a warp in and then move in with 3 overlords into the main to snipe the probes or the nexus there. Zerg drops are fairly underutilized in ZvP but the possibilities are pretty much as endless as Terran drops. In any of the immortal sentry defences your macro has to be impeccable though, that won't change. | ||
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
On August 16 2012 17:44 Luxuria. wrote: nice!! does stephano style roaches beat this all in? You little boy :D This allin is designed to kill stephano style roaches ;P At least from what ive seen in last dreamhack | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote: Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas? dont think so because that would be a very early lair timing if you take into account lair build time and research build time, you would need like a 730 ish lair id say, but your drone count would be significantly lower so banedrops are not as viable for that reason this early on. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On August 17 2012 03:42 YosHGo wrote: You little boy :D This allin is designed to kill stephano style roaches ;P At least from what ive seen in last dreamhack Well no. Stephano now beats this all in with his roaches. (look at his stream ) | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
btw: just watched the replays of your ZvP thread where you and savior defend the sentry immo all in. P arrived at about 11:50, 11:30 and 11:00 at the Z bases in that replays. in all these replays banedrop would be easily be ready. Yes, the P in those replays were pretty stupid. I'm currently working on finding a competent Toss to do the immortal/sentry all-in to me, in the meantime those replays are there to show how the response works. I believe the one on Shakuras, the Toss pushed out at a correct timing. This part bothered me, especially because you are great guide writer, and seems you know a lot about the game, but you don't know that Queens aren't light nor armored. They are just Psionic, they don't have natural counter. Sure, Forcefields, Guardian Shield and Zealots that do great damage beat Queens, but Immortals and Stalkers really aren't doing much against them. I knew that. I don't know why I thought that. Thanks. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:06 IPA wrote: I base trade every single time I scout this coming and win 4/5 games. I pray for this build to hit me because it seems so easy to defeat. Granted, I am only playing at a 1k pt Masters level, but base trade seems like the best, easiest option to defeat this. Why bother with trying to hold? Yeah, base trading works. But you shouldn't have to basetrade. Afaik, it's the only all-in where basetrading is the most reliable option haha. Personally, I'd rather defend with something cool like banerain and have a huge lead than to force it into a 2base vs 1base where he has map control...again, hopefully all methods are equally viable ^^ | ||
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courtpanda
866 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:19 Mavvie wrote: Yeah, base trading works. But you shouldn't have to basetrade. Afaik, it's the only all-in where basetrading is the most reliable option haha. Personally, I'd rather defend with something cool like banerain and have a huge lead than to force it into a 2base vs 1base where he has map control...again, hopefully all methods are equally viable ^^ how does the basetrade usually work out? what if they go for your natural then main, and you dont have time to spine up to protect your tech? | ||
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