EPT[D]Lets develop the lategame terran. - Page 3
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MagmaPunch
Bulgaria536 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On June 22 2012 02:35 Chef0 wrote: Hmm, regarding TvP, why don't we try to use this combo : Marauder Hellion Banshee Viking. I mean, hellions counter zeallots, marauders counter stalkers, and for any other anti air there is vikings. The true damage dealers are the Banshees and the Marauders. If the P makes a lot of zealots then make more hellions, and if more stalkers - marauders.Collosi won't be a huge problem, since there will be vikings dealing with them, and they are gonna snipe observers. Which is why a raven can also be useful. Only storm and hts look troublesome. So, what do you think. I have tried it, but since i am only silver I can't be even 10% sure if it will work in the higher leagues. One problem i find though is that it is quite gas heavy and you have to upragre at least two type of upgrades ( at least bio and air ) Hellions don't counter zealots & both marauders & hellions don't have the crazy dps of marines that terran needs because they have no aoe except tank EMP & nuke. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
Fyi, terran have massive advantage in early/mid game than toss. So how will the game be balanced if terran have advantage early-end game. Its terrans job to be aggressive and do damage to be even foot in late game. User was warned for this post | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Does terran even have a viable lategame composition in the non-mirror matchups? Is it possible to reach the stage in the game where you can get those units without dying, and what's the most efficient way to get there, also what unit composition is the shit in the lategame? My idea on this is Thors and Ravens as the main units, with some support units to kill off all of the Broodlings, Zerglings, and Banelings, as well as aggro the Zerg's Air units, such as one or two BC's with armour upgrades.Infestors and Banelings would put wrench in this unfortunately, so at least 3-5 Siege Tanks would have to be incorporated, and positioned very well. Getting there would be hard, since the Zerg can often just march across the map just as you're getting your perfect composition up and just kill you outright. Especially since it's almost impossible to tell if he's going for Ultralisk tech or Broodlord tech. As for TvP, I find that Reaper/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac is very very strong as it is extremely gas-heavy, which all Terrans float in the late-game, and deals with everything the Protoss can throw at you. When remaxing, I think that Ghost/Marauder would be a good idea for the first couple production rounds, as Reapers take way too long to build. I think I have a replay of something like this, I'm going to check. Edit: Here it is: http://drop.sc/202024 Not the best example, but it's all I've got. | ||
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intense555
United States474 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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SolidSnoopy
United States21 Posts
an simply engage the other i see nukes coming into play a lot more. They are relatively inexpensive, they cost no supply, and landing 1 good one can win the game. I can see this used more in TvP as ghosts will be necessary to have in the late game anyways | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:26 Jazzman88 wrote: I don't think you can question the fact that 200/200 Battlecruiser/Raven with upgrades just does not die, ever (unless you get Archon Toileted... MVP). Particularly in TvP, I don't see any reason why you can't just build 3-5 extra Starports once you get 4 bases and start adding in Battlecruisers or Ravens slowly, because there's no way even all the Ghosts you're building are going to be eating up 4 bases of gas. So, maybe it goes like: Standard 1-rax FE into bio pressure. When you add the second Starport for the inevitable Colossi, instead of immediately building Vikings out of it or getting a Reactor, get a Tech Lab (which is quick to build), and research HSM and Corvid Reactor while pushing/trading. Then, as soon as those upgrades are finishing, drop 3 more TL Starports, a Fusion Core, and a second Armory. Use your bio/Ghost force to keep the Protoss expansion count as low AS POSSIBLE (obviously don't go all out if you can't engage effectively - the goal is to slow him down, not insta-kill him). Build up a few Ravens, and then switch into Battlecruiser/Marine/Ghost. With Raven support to spot Observers, you can make maximum use of EMP, and then if you split the BC ball appropriately, you just waltz over the Protoss player. First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. I can tell you the simple truth that while toss is teching to stop your mmm composition and you are making ravens and battlecruisers, toss is also making the counter to your battlecruiser raven composition. HT counter both raven and battlecruiser essentially making ravens expensive flying scouts and halving the health of battlecruisers. Then stalkers will just walk over you. Hell, even zealots will just pass by you, kill your main while you float in the air helplessly. Or he can just storm all over your bcs and they will die anyway. I know you theorize that you also have ghosts in your army, but he can literally just a move the zealots into them and they will destroy your ghosts for a sec, while battlecruisers are pew pewing on top of the zealots, cause battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. I have played many times with air vs toss and find that the composition that toss makes to counter mmm is the same he makes to counter bcs - High Templars and zealot/archon/stalker. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. Please, think about what you are suggesting and try it a bit before writing it in TL. Don't make ridiculous claims. The reason battlecruiser raven hasn't won A SINGLE pro game besides in TvT is that it is outright bad in other matchups. Why do we have to force weird compositions that don't work? It's like me claiming that mass reaper gives you advantage in late game TvZ or TvP. Make a game or two with your suggested composition, make some replays, then come back to TL. For now all I see are words I don't believe in. | ||
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dGHaiL
United States177 Posts
I really think ghosts are still viable in TvZ, but maybe not in the way they used to be. I'm trying to incorporate ghosts more and more into my compositions, and while they nerfed snipe damage and EMP radius, ghosts are still incredibly effective against infestors. Very rarely does a Zerg bring an overseer to a fight against terran - meaning your cloaked ghosts can do a lot of damage in a small amount of time. It takes two (2) snipes from a ghost to KILL an infestor - meaning that's 100 mins, 150 gas, and fungals unspent - all lost due to two snipes. Without infestor support, cracklings and ultralisks are a lot less scary against bio units. Ghost academies are also pretty cheap - dropping a few extra means you can also research up some nukes. Now I don't experiment with this a whole lot myself, but I really should. I played master Zerg back in season 5. Hearing that little nuclear launch detected sound makes me go into a freaking panic. If you can drop 1-2 nukes at a time, whether it be by cloaking your ghosts and moving to an expo, or dropping them from a medivac and cloaking them, the Zerg will be disoriented trying to find that little red dot. Even dropping one on his army might be a good call, because he'll be scrambling between bases trying to find which one is being nuked. It requires a little more APM, and I can't stay I've found time to do it in many of my TvZ, but I think it requires much more APM from the zerg to figure out where the nuke is and move his shit in time to avoid it. I think this is also a good time to cloak up and snipe a bunch of his infestors with his army while he is looking for the nukes, or drop a bunch of marines somewhere. Terran has so many options still to split that Zerg army. And winning a TvZ that way is always so much fun, because you know you really deserved it. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:07 dGHaiL wrote: Masters NA Terran here, if anyone cares. I really think ghosts are still viable in TvZ, but maybe not in the way they used to be. I'm trying to incorporate ghosts more and more into my compositions, and while they nerfed snipe damage and EMP radius, ghosts are still incredibly effective against infestors. Very rarely does a Zerg bring an overseer to a fight against terran - meaning your cloaked ghosts can do a lot of damage in a small amount of time. It takes two (2) snipes from a ghost to KILL an infestor - meaning that's 100 mins, 150 gas, and fungals unspent - all lost due to two snipes. Without infestor support, cracklings and ultralisks are a lot less scary against bio units. Ghost academies are also pretty cheap - dropping a few extra means you can also research up some nukes. Now I don't experiment with this a whole lot myself, but I really should. I played master Zerg back in season 5. Hearing that little nuclear launch detected sound makes me go into a freaking panic. If you can drop 1-2 nukes at a time, whether it be by cloaking your ghosts and moving to an expo, or dropping them from a medivac and cloaking them, the Zerg will be disoriented trying to find that little red dot. Even dropping one on his army might be a good call, because he'll be scrambling between bases trying to find which one is being nuked. It requires a little more APM, and I can't stay I've found time to do it in many of my TvZ, but I think it requires much more APM from the zerg to figure out where the nuke is and move his shit in time to avoid it. I think this is also a good time to cloak up and snipe a bunch of his infestors with his army while he is looking for the nukes, or drop a bunch of marines somewhere. Terran has so many options still to split that Zerg army. And winning a TvZ that way is always so much fun, because you know you really deserved it. What's your main composition when you use Ghosts? | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's.The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units.Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly. BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote: It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. NO. NO. You don't get to tell me stuff that you don't have proof of. Nobody has ever done it in a pro game. There is a reason for the fact nobody has done it in a pro game. I know the reason. You pretend you don't know the reason. Go on ladder immediately, make this, come back with replay. You have a deadline of 3 hours. If you can't, I call your words complete and utter bullshit. Man, I am so tired of people that throw random ideas and thinking they are right just BECAUSE they think so. By the way, I personally can beat mass void ray with almost any combination I can think of as terran, especially with the most standard, that is MMMGV. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote: Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. And one neural takes a battlecruiser out, then the bc yamatos another bc. Also, one neural takes your ghost and he emps all over the other ghosts. See, everybody is big on words. | ||
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dGHaiL
United States177 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:11 HeroMystic wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 05:07 dGHaiL wrote: Masters NA Terran here, if anyone cares. I really think ghosts are still viable in TvZ, but maybe not in the way they used to be. I'm trying to incorporate ghosts more and more into my compositions, and while they nerfed snipe damage and EMP radius, ghosts are still incredibly effective against infestors. Very rarely does a Zerg bring an overseer to a fight against terran - meaning your cloaked ghosts can do a lot of damage in a small amount of time. It takes two (2) snipes from a ghost to KILL an infestor - meaning that's 100 mins, 150 gas, and fungals unspent - all lost due to two snipes. Without infestor support, cracklings and ultralisks are a lot less scary against bio units. Ghost academies are also pretty cheap - dropping a few extra means you can also research up some nukes. Now I don't experiment with this a whole lot myself, but I really should. I played master Zerg back in season 5. Hearing that little nuclear launch detected sound makes me go into a freaking panic. If you can drop 1-2 nukes at a time, whether it be by cloaking your ghosts and moving to an expo, or dropping them from a medivac and cloaking them, the Zerg will be disoriented trying to find that little red dot. Even dropping one on his army might be a good call, because he'll be scrambling between bases trying to find which one is being nuked. It requires a little more APM, and I can't stay I've found time to do it in many of my TvZ, but I think it requires much more APM from the zerg to figure out where the nuke is and move his shit in time to avoid it. I think this is also a good time to cloak up and snipe a bunch of his infestors with his army while he is looking for the nukes, or drop a bunch of marines somewhere. Terran has so many options still to split that Zerg army. And winning a TvZ that way is always so much fun, because you know you really deserved it. What's your main composition when you use Ghosts? Reactored Marine Marauder Medivac with a handful (up to 10 or so) tanks. I've found one of the best things I've done for my TvZ is dropping that extra factory when I get the chance. Pumping two tanks at once is incredibly powerful and will help you fend off the Ultralisk/ling/bane/infestor if you have a bunch. Three reactored barracks is enough for most late-game situations (unless you have a HUGE bank, then add more) But I find 4-6 tech labbed barracks are really useful for pumping marauders or ghosts late game. Recently, Zergs have been going more ultralisk heavy, so I drop tech lab barracks after I have 2 reactored rax and then proceed from there. If I were really smart, I'd drop another starport with a tech lab for a raven to perch over my tank line, just so no infestors can sneak up and drop IT on me. I should really try to do that as I add in the starports lategame anyhow just in case the zerg decides to do a brood switch. The Raven also has the added benefit of not getting destroyed by ultra/ling/bling if you happen to lose your foothold at that position like a turret does. Obviously + attack for mech is really helpful, and I'll drop extra macro CC's and turn them into OC's really late game and start saccing some SCVs. I've never switched to BC/Raven at any point in time. It's just too slow and immobile versus zerg. I don't like it. But yeah, 8-10 ghosts can be excellent for sniping infestors, and even overseers if they happen to build a few, which I rarely see. | ||
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote: It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. Don't know if you saw the GSL finals, but there was this one game, where MVP had 20+ BC, without ravens I'll admit, and got owned hard by a portion of Squirtles (1/3 was on an island far away) army, and it didn't look like ravens would save him. | ||
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
Also, I agree it would be more difficult vs a protoss than a zerg to make something like this work | ||
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dGHaiL
United States177 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:24 sieksdekciw wrote: And one neural takes a battlecruiser out, then the bc yamatos another bc. Also, one neural takes your ghost and he emps all over the other ghosts. See, everybody is big on words. How often do you see a neural on a ghost? That would be one sick neural to EMP the rest of the ghosts - if you haven't sniped the infestors by the time they get close enough to neural a ghost, or they haven't exploded from tank fire, you're already in trouble. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:20 sieksdekciw wrote: Have you played Phantom mode? It's a fun custom game. I get maxed out on BC/Raven all the time and own faces. NO. NO. You don't get to tell me stuff that you don't have proof of. Nobody has ever done it in a pro game. There is a reason for the fact nobody has done it in a pro game. I know the reason. You pretend you don't know the reason. Go on ladder immediately, make this, come back with replay. You have a deadline of 3 hours. If you can't, I call your words complete and utter bullshit. Man, I am so tired of people that throw random ideas and thinking they are right just BECAUSE they think so. By the way, I personally can beat mass void ray with almost any combination I can think of as terran, especially with the most standard, that is MMMGV.  In all seriousness, the reason you haven't seen anything like this is because it's near impossible to tech to without dying in the process. Of course no one's ever done it in a pro game except for Mvp in the GSL finals against Squirtle when it was a split map situation. Edit: There's a reason BC's are used in TvT split map situations: You have Siege Tanks, and you have time to tech to them and get enough of them that they can't be killed by Marines or Thors. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:27 SomeONEx wrote: Don't know if you saw the GSL finals, but there was this one game, where MVP had 20+ BC, without ravens I'll admit, and got owned hard by a portion of Squirtles (1/3 was on an island far away) army, and it didn't look like ravens would save him. I forgot archon toilets.  | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:28 dGHaiL wrote: How often do you see a neural on a ghost? That would be one sick neural to EMP the rest of the ghosts - if you haven't sniped the infestors by the time they get close enough to neural a ghost, or they haven't exploded from tank fire, you're already in trouble. Hey, American. how often do you see BC's vs toss? This would be one sick game. | ||
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