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United States2694 Posts
On June 25 2012 19:25 saaaa wrote:
I have an interesting suggestion to come in the late game with terran against protoss.
Why shouldn't we use the Thor+Marine+Banshee composition, which uses MMA, Jjakji and NaDa in the past?
I just would replace the Marines with Hellions to open up new ways of harassment and easier dealing with Zealot heavy compositions, because they melt against hellions.
I try this a couple times these days and it works really well. (just diamond)
The build looks like 1 rax fe with cloak banshee into Thor Hellion. On 2 Base i get 3 Fac (TTR)+2 Starports (TT) and maybe 2 Armory for double upgrades with this mass thors+banshee and hellion you are really save against everything in the mid and early game. I dont understand why terrans play with heavy tank compositions. Yeah sure they are really powerful if you siege them up in time but protoss is so mobile they can just outrun you. Maybe they just outrun me but the point is you dont have to siege up with Thor+Hellion+Banshee. You can scan and snipe observer and mass banshees with no obs against protoss is really fun. For this reason they are afraid to attack into this mass banshee force. I get 250mm cannon on 2 Base because you can snipe immortals, archons and collosi and they die instant. On maybe 4-5 Base you can transition into BC+Ghost but i dont that experience with it, because my hellion+banshee harassment is so hard that every protoss left the game before.
I'am really interested in your opinion about this composition.
Feedback+Psi Storm+Colossus kills that. It worked as a mid-game timing because the Protoss didn't have much of his T3 up.
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why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not
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United States2694 Posts
On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not
It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats.
The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it.
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On June 25 2012 19:29 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 19:25 saaaa wrote:
I have an interesting suggestion to come in the late game with terran against protoss.
Why shouldn't we use the Thor+Marine+Banshee composition, which uses MMA, Jjakji and NaDa in the past?
I just would replace the Marines with Hellions to open up new ways of harassment and easier dealing with Zealot heavy compositions, because they melt against hellions.
I try this a couple times these days and it works really well. (just diamond)
The build looks like 1 rax fe with cloak banshee into Thor Hellion. On 2 Base i get 3 Fac (TTR)+2 Starports (TT) and maybe 2 Armory for double upgrades with this mass thors+banshee and hellion you are really save against everything in the mid and early game. I dont understand why terrans play with heavy tank compositions. Yeah sure they are really powerful if you siege them up in time but protoss is so mobile they can just outrun you. Maybe they just outrun me but the point is you dont have to siege up with Thor+Hellion+Banshee. You can scan and snipe observer and mass banshees with no obs against protoss is really fun. For this reason they are afraid to attack into this mass banshee force. I get 250mm cannon on 2 Base because you can snipe immortals, archons and collosi and they die instant. On maybe 4-5 Base you can transition into BC+Ghost but i dont that experience with it, because my hellion+banshee harassment is so hard that every protoss left the game before.
I'am really interested in your opinion about this composition. Feedback+Psi Storm+Colossus kills that. It worked as a mid-game timing because the Protoss didn't have much of his T3 up.
you begin to add ghosts in mid game. jjakji,nada,mma attacked around 17:30 min until then you should have enough ghost with cloak.
and the protoss have to decide if he storms the banshees or feedback the thors.
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On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it.
ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first
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On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first
but vikings in mech in TvP means ~3 less banshees. I really like to snipe obs. with thors.
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On June 25 2012 21:04 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first but vikings in mech in TvP means ~3 less banshees. I really like to snipe obs. with thors.
Banshees are 3 supply that's why, so its a pretty bad late game option. And sky terran is easily shutdown by 200/200 blink stalkers, you end up running out of cloak from all the blinking in/out, PDD's run out of energy in one volley, and you can't abuse the mobility.
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United States2694 Posts
On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first
I meant with Vikings still. You're going to have Vikings no matter what against Colossus anyway, unless you're going Sky Terran.
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United States2694 Posts
On June 25 2012 21:09 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 21:04 saaaa wrote:On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first but vikings in mech in TvP means ~3 less banshees. I really like to snipe obs. with thors. Banshees are 3 supply that's why, so its a pretty bad late game option. And sky terran is easily shutdown by 200/200 blink stalkers, you end up running out of cloak from all the blinking in/out, PDD's run out of energy in one volley, and you can't abuse the mobility.
Shut down in the mid game with Blinkstalker/HT*
Pure Blinkstalker gets shut down by Viking/Raven/Banshee. You need the thread of Feedback and the AoE of Storms to keep him from clumping up and abusing ledges outside your base, otherwise the Vikings snipe the Observer, and Ravens throw down PDD's and or HSM's once the Stalkers blink in, and you can't retreat and you die.
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On June 25 2012 21:09 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 21:04 saaaa wrote:On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first but vikings in mech in TvP means ~3 less banshees. I really like to snipe obs. with thors. Banshees are 3 supply that's why, so its a pretty bad late game option. And sky terran is easily shutdown by 200/200 blink stalkers, you end up running out of cloak from all the blinking in/out, PDD's run out of energy in one volley, and you can't abuse the mobility.
BC with Raven are incredible strong. You just need enough ravens maybe +6 to shutdown any stalker attacks.
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On June 21 2012 18:40 Entteri wrote:
The only really viable TvZ lategame ever was mass ghost and it was nerfed to the ground (just like everything else). There is no viable "standard" type lategame composition for terran and if you come up with anything that isn't standard it's going to get instanerfed to hell. Also, no matter what you come up with the answer to that is infestors because they counter both tightly packed small units(fungal) and big single units(neural parasite). They also counter air and cloak and they happen to be the standard ZvT for a reason.
User was warned for this post
lol, retard. Sorry to quote a warning but it's really funny.
Cloaked ghosts are great units and in my opinion theyre great in late vP and vZ. Turn multi drop harrass into multi nuke harrass and build a planetary/ turret wall as far forward as you can. Hotkey all the planetaries so you can make scvs in a crunch if you run out of mules (don't run out of mules). inb4 Raven. Also get all the upgrades you never get, structure armor, auto tracking, neosteel, etc.
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what about a couple PF with a raisable supply depot wall (so chargelots get bugged)? Sprinkle in a few vikings and tanks + missile turrets (and building armor + PF range ofc) and you get yourself a bastion that is really hard to crack for protoss
never really understood why terran wouldn't do it like in SC:BW (place a few tanks in strategic locations, wall them in with buildings/missile turrets. Sure you have no spider mines in SC2, but you have PF and you can do a full walloff since to get your tank out you can just lower one supply depot).
oh, and also try to take out gateways lategame. It forces the protoss to retreat with his army (if you just drop more than his warp in limited by supply cap can handle), and if you take out his production suddenly he has a one-shot army (and not infinite resupply to max in 5 sec). If you cannot take out the majority of his gateways, just kill his tech buildings, especially templar archives (since late game protoss often times has too much gas and too low minerals, so he gas dumps into mass archon)
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On June 25 2012 23:15 Cirqueenflex wrote:
what about a couple PF with a raisable supply depot wall (so chargelots get bugged)? Sprinkle in a few vikings and tanks + missile turrets (and building armor + PF range ofc) and you get yourself a bastion that is really hard to crack for protoss
never really understood why terran wouldn't do it like in SC:BW (place a few tanks in strategic locations, wall them in with buildings/missile turrets. Sure you have no spider mines in SC2, but you have PF and you can do a full walloff since to get your tank out you can just lower one supply depot).
Problems here are
-If you aren't going tanks from the start (so uppgrading them the whole game), they're going to be terrible at holding your PF wall
-PFs take a long time to build, so basically you need to put everything into holding "the" key area while building/morphing it
-A Deathball can basically a PF in seconds. and if you have tanks,he's going to have air, so basically he can try to come in, snipe a PF with his air army, and fly away immediatly
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I am master Terran and never really had the chance to experiment with this... How bad does 3 PFs fare vs a deathball? Or hell, your smaller bio (due to the transition to BCs (?)) + the 3 PFs should be enough, shouldn't it?
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On June 25 2012 21:11 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first I meant with Vikings still. You're going to have Vikings no matter what against Colossus anyway, unless you're going Sky Terran.
ghost does pitiful dps against protoss though, and having banshees mean you can still harass all game
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On June 25 2012 19:25 saaaa wrote:
I have an interesting suggestion to come in the late game with terran against protoss.
Why shouldn't we use the Thor+Marine+Banshee composition, which uses MMA, Jjakji and NaDa in the past?
I just would replace the Marines with Hellions to open up new ways of harassment and easier dealing with Zealot heavy compositions, because they melt against hellions.
I try this a couple times these days and it works really well. (just diamond)
The build looks like 1 rax fe with cloak banshee into Thor Hellion. On 2 Base i get 3 Fac (TTR)+2 Starports (TT) and maybe 2 Armory for double upgrades with this mass thors+banshee and hellion you are really save against everything in the mid and early game. I dont understand why terrans play with heavy tank compositions. Yeah sure they are really powerful if you siege them up in time but protoss is so mobile they can just outrun you. Maybe they just outrun me but the point is you dont have to siege up with Thor+Hellion+Banshee. You can scan and snipe observer and mass banshees with no obs against protoss is really fun. For this reason they are afraid to attack into this mass banshee force. I get 250mm cannon on 2 Base because you can snipe immortals, archons and collosi and they die instant. On maybe 4-5 Base you can transition into BC+Ghost but i dont that experience with it, because my hellion+banshee harassment is so hard that every protoss left the game before.
I'am really interested in your opinion about this composition.
Get destroy completely by HT and mass zealot play. Your making 3 type of different unit that require 3 different upgrade. It too hard to have the gas to upgrade them all. Banshee and marine need upgrade to be able to deal stalker and zealots well (dont forget guardian shield). Since banshee and marine are fast DPS unit, if protoss get armor upgrade, it messed up their DPS exponentially. Compare to the thor, it does like 60 damage (not real number I am just using an arbutarly high number) per shot and so 1 armor only decrease it to 59 which isnt that big of deal. While banshee shot 2 missle per shot and marine shot really fast so armor messed up their DPS if you arent on par with upgrade.
HT shit on banshee with storm and feedback rape Thor and banshee. You can get some ghost but ghost is going to be tough because you already having problem with gas upgrading 3 different type of unit along with having very gas intensive unit.
It used to be a powerful strategy at the start of sc2 release. I think Painuser was the one that discovered it and display it power at MLG that with +1 thor, they 1 shot observers and banshee owned everything but during this time everyone made collosus and didnt understand how powerful storm was. It came back for a bit after HT got the kydrian amulet nerf but it quickly disappear after protoss found out again that HT wasnt useless.
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United States2694 Posts
On June 26 2012 04:08 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 21:11 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 21:02 iky43210 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:43 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:34 iky43210 wrote:
why is no terran using heavy banshee in late game army against protoss?
And with viking long range, you could add 4 viking in your army, do a scan, and one shot the observers. never tried to do it in an actual game,but i don't see why not It's almost as effective if you go 8+ Ghosts, snipe the Observer like you say, and cloak>EMP the entire Protoss army, then run in with stimmed Bio and kill everything, or what you can as he retreats. The difference is that you don't lose if you can't snipe the observer, or he has multiple of them and ends up mass Feedbacking you when you don't expect it. ghost have short range, they aren't so easy to snipe observers. Vikings on the other hand u can literally a-move them and they'll hit observer first I meant with Vikings still. You're going to have Vikings no matter what against Colossus anyway, unless you're going Sky Terran. ghost does pitiful dps against protoss though, and having banshees mean you can still harass all game
What? Protoss players these days have Cannons+HT's guarding their bases from drops anyway...
Ghosts do 22 damage against Zealot armor, the same DPS as un-stimmed Marauders do against Stalkers, and they have EMP which does huge damage if you EMP all the Protoss units, plus it gets rid of the energy on Sentries, which means no Guardian Shield, and no Psi Storm if you get the HT's too. HT's also die to 1 Snipe if you EMP them first.
Banshees do high DPS per supply, but have very low HP per supply. Marines, Reapers, and Marauders are all better for that purpose. The two advantages are that it can Cloak, and it can fly. Unfortunately those are negligible against late-game Protoss, which has at least two Robotics Facilities anyway, which means double Observer production.
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United States2694 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:56 xTrim wrote:
I am master Terran and never really had the chance to experiment with this... How bad does 3 PFs fare vs a deathball? Or hell, your smaller bio (due to the transition to BCs (?)) + the 3 PFs should be enough, shouldn't it?
Even one PF lasts fairly long against a weakened Deathball. If you engage a Protoss Deathball with your Bioball near a PF you will always win the engagement unless he gets wicked storms off. Two PF's make it even more one-sided.
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United States2694 Posts
On June 25 2012 20:11 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 19:29 Fencer710 wrote:On June 25 2012 19:25 saaaa wrote:
I have an interesting suggestion to come in the late game with terran against protoss.
Why shouldn't we use the Thor+Marine+Banshee composition, which uses MMA, Jjakji and NaDa in the past?
I just would replace the Marines with Hellions to open up new ways of harassment and easier dealing with Zealot heavy compositions, because they melt against hellions.
I try this a couple times these days and it works really well. (just diamond)
The build looks like 1 rax fe with cloak banshee into Thor Hellion. On 2 Base i get 3 Fac (TTR)+2 Starports (TT) and maybe 2 Armory for double upgrades with this mass thors+banshee and hellion you are really save against everything in the mid and early game. I dont understand why terrans play with heavy tank compositions. Yeah sure they are really powerful if you siege them up in time but protoss is so mobile they can just outrun you. Maybe they just outrun me but the point is you dont have to siege up with Thor+Hellion+Banshee. You can scan and snipe observer and mass banshees with no obs against protoss is really fun. For this reason they are afraid to attack into this mass banshee force. I get 250mm cannon on 2 Base because you can snipe immortals, archons and collosi and they die instant. On maybe 4-5 Base you can transition into BC+Ghost but i dont that experience with it, because my hellion+banshee harassment is so hard that every protoss left the game before.
I'am really interested in your opinion about this composition. Feedback+Psi Storm+Colossus kills that. It worked as a mid-game timing because the Protoss didn't have much of his T3 up. you begin to add ghosts in mid game. jjakji,nada,mma attacked around 17:30 min until then you should have enough ghost with cloak. and the protoss have to decide if he storms the banshees or feedback the thors.
Hmm... I guess, maybe it could work?
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I commend any terran for trying to turn lemons into lemonade. As a zerg, I'll be rooting for you to figure out a standard end game comp so that long zvt's can continue to be the best matchup in the game!
In my humble low diamond terran offrace account, I usually open triple OC into 4 rax and attack with like maybe 20 marines without stim, from there I've gotten double gas to transition into marine tank and, as the game goes on, start to transition out of marine tank into mech with the emphasis on thors + vikings and a couple ravens (hopefully I've kept tanks alive through the mid game).
Is this a viable thing to do and are people already doing it? I mean the transitioning into mech. Or is it merely possible at my low level cause we're all macroing like shit and have enough money to do that?
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EPT
