EPTthe problem is that, if you lose you can't reinforce, cuz this composition is so slow to make
[D]Lets develop the lategame terran. - Page 6
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Garmer
1286 Posts
the problem is that, if you lose you can't reinforce, cuz this composition is so slow to make | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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ShaneFeit
92 Posts
On June 22 2012 09:54 ShaneFeit wrote: I have a build I have been thinking about for awhile but I have not tried it out yet. But I will give it a go tomorrow on the ladder. Get gas at 16 then fast expand. Get 3 barrack 1 factory and 1 starport on your 2 bases. Build 2 vikings that you split up to take out any overlords on the map, keep putting your gas into vikings and bio upgrades. Go for a timing attack with all your scvs and the bio force you built up during the viking harass. The zerg cant remake units and you win. 6 queen opening which are standard these days do deal well with the vikings, however if they use those to defend they are not spreading creep and taking map control, and vikings are still faster and have good air-air range so you should be able to kill loads of overlords, then land them to buff versus banelings with your big all-in push. The reactor starport will also be nice to get medivacs out in time for the 11-12 minute push. So I gave this a try on the ladder and it failed pretty badly. By the time you get enough vikings out the zerg just gets a spire and mutas wipe out the vikings. However you are able to get quite a few overlord kills with the viking before that point. I think maybe just building 4 vikings to lure the Zerg for spire tech could probably be good if you are going for 3OC, since that is considerably easier to play vs than infestors. | ||
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GaMeOfFeAr
United States26 Posts
In PvT I tend to go Mech every game. Mass tanks/hellions, a few thors for tanking, a few ghosts for EMP. Heavy turtle, with planetary fortresses on all important choke points. Its very successful. Late late game, I throw down 4+ starports for banshees. Mech+banshees w/ micro is extremely good vs any typical toss composition, especially if youre good at sniping observers and just dancing with your banshees in battle. I open double rax/double cc and just turtle. I think Banshees are superior to BCs due to mobility, DPS, and cloak, as well as how fast you can produce them. My experience is that mass tanks/hellions > Colossi/HT based armys. Unsieged 3/3 tanks also have very high dps - I've beaten heavy Immortal compositions using massive 3/3 hellion/unsieged tank armies, even without EMP. If its a larger map, throwing in banshees reeeeally hurts the toss, especially if you micro them like mutas. As many said, getting there is the hard part, but not as hard as you think. I just turtle heavily, playing like a zerg, with planetary fortresses everywhere thanks to the macro CC. TvZ - Very very veery hard to outmacro the Zerg, but if you can get to late game, I find the only way I can slowly push back a Zerg on 4+ bases is with upgraded mech w/marauders and vikings upgraded to counter the constant Ultra/Broodlord switch. There are alot of intricacies that appear when you use mech as heavily as I do, such as countering Roach/Infestor, how to deal with the constant tech switches, etc. Marauders are really mean if you can back them up with a solid mech army. Broodlord/Infestor/corrupter w/mass sunkens is no joke, but neither is Planetary fortress/mass SCV's. As for getting there, you'll have to really just defend and scout heavily at the same time. Prepare for ultrabusts early-late game, or if you see him going quick broodlords. 3/3 mech, hellions especially, tend to melt broodlings and tank early broodlords well. Indeed, the main problem is not countering Zerg, but countering what they counter you with. If the game lasts long enough that ihave 3/3 bio and mech, I can easily hold my own. If you mech, and have alot of macro cc's for mules, bring 10+ scvs with your army always. It makes 3/3 mech compositions extremely potent vs anything. Also, always micro your tanks. | ||
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heaven-
United States361 Posts
I've seen him win games in where he literally doesnt touch a zerg or protoss all game long and wins with deathball vs deathball. good shit twitch.tv/avilo | ||
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Positronic
121 Posts
On June 24 2012 06:09 GaMeOfFeAr wrote: I'm just going to post my experiences. I am a pure macro Terran, and my average game is about 25-30 minutes. I prefer high tech, strategic late game battles that involve alot of in battle/micro. In PvT I tend to go Mech every game. Mass tanks/hellions, a few thors for tanking, a few ghosts for EMP. Heavy turtle, with planetary fortresses on all important choke points. Its very successful. Late late game, I throw down 4+ starports for banshees. Mech+banshees w/ micro is extremely good vs any typical toss composition, especially if youre good at sniping observers and just dancing with your banshees in battle. I open double rax/double cc and just turtle. I think Banshees are superior to BCs due to mobility, DPS, and cloak, as well as how fast you can produce them. My experience is that mass tanks/hellions > Colossi/HT based armys. Unsieged 3/3 tanks also have very high dps - I've beaten heavy Immortal compositions using massive 3/3 hellion/unsieged tank armies, even without EMP. If its a larger map, throwing in banshees reeeeally hurts the toss, especially if you micro them like mutas. As many said, getting there is the hard part, but not as hard as you think. I just turtle heavily, playing like a zerg, with planetary fortresses everywhere thanks to the macro CC. TvZ - Very very veery hard to outmacro the Zerg, but if you can get to late game, I find the only way I can slowly push back a Zerg on 4+ bases is with upgraded mech w/marauders and vikings upgraded to counter the constant Ultra/Broodlord switch. There are alot of intricacies that appear when you use mech as heavily as I do, such as countering Roach/Infestor, how to deal with the constant tech switches, etc. Marauders are really mean if you can back them up with a solid mech army. Broodlord/Infestor/corrupter w/mass sunkens is no joke, but neither is Planetary fortress/mass SCV's. As for getting there, you'll have to really just defend and scout heavily at the same time. Prepare for ultrabusts early-late game, or if you see him going quick broodlords. 3/3 mech, hellions especially, tend to melt broodlings and tank early broodlords well. Indeed, the main problem is not countering Zerg, but countering what they counter you with. If the game lasts long enough that ihave 3/3 bio and mech, I can easily hold my own. If you mech, and have alot of macro cc's for mules, bring 10+ scvs with your army always. It makes 3/3 mech compositions extremely potent vs anything. Also, always micro your tanks. Is master league? I don't want to discount anybody's opinion as to what works for them but I'm trying to stay in diamond myself and I just want to make sure these strategies are valid for higher leagues. If so, thank you very much for this post. I'm really lost as to what comp to look for late game vs Z/P and this might help a lot. | ||
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andropopp
United States88 Posts
1) build wise. how do you GET to lategame? its extremely hard to get 3/3 air and mech when you also need to get 3/3 bio early. maybe someone will figure out good mech builds that are viable. build wise only the best terrans can really find out the best way to enter the lategame. build wise its hard to argue what works, only the best know, and until something works so well it becomes mainstream its theorycraft thats pointless 2) unit wise. This is where I think theorycraft is not pointless. its not hard to look at units in the tester and see what wins and what loses so I will i used to always think ultras combined with fungal/broodlords was just stupidly too good. i used to think the only counter to ultras was kiting MMM since ultras are too strong but fungal stops that and broodlord range stops ghost emp. i used to think a zergs perfect endgame army should pretty much always win against any perfect terran army because terran air is weak, and ultras cost for cost obliterate all ground units with fungal/broodlord support but then i went into the unit tester and discovered that where i thought battlecruisers were too weak because corrupters decimated them in any battle of over 30 food (even with good yamatos) I realized that battlecruisers actually are a good counter to ultralisks. create any perfect zerg army with ultras in it and add in 1 bc per ultra and the bc's instantly cut the ultra numbers in half due to yamato. so food for food every bc in your army is a strong counter to the enemy ultralisk thats just 1 thing ive noticed, unit wise, which is theorycraft but its still thats not really pointless.. what this theorycraft tellsyou is that if there could somehow be found a viable build to allow viable bc's to be gotten against ultras, then bc's would work on paper (however whether or not a viable method/build exists, who knows) so now that i realized ultras are not as stupidly overpowered as i once thought and are countered pretty hard by BC's (and not banshees actually because ultras still rip everything apart too fast only yamato stops them banshees dont work too well) i no longer think theres a perfect zerg army thats unbeatable. but still thats just theorycraft on paper, when it comes to build wise who the hell really knows what the solution is for terran lategame also on paper in theorycraft the only counter to broodlord/corrupter/infestor heavy armies is mass vikings with maybe 6 ravens with PDD and some thor hellion. the trick is you need to really use the 9range vikings to avoid INFESTED TERRANS as well as you can. thats what really stacks things in zergs favor is fungal combined with infested terrans is such strong anti air try to keep the vikings in an area so your ground army protects them from IT then keep hellions behind the thors to hopefully roast broodlings in the unit tester if you got 140food of pure broodlord/corrupter/infestor/queen in any combination, there should be a 140food combination of viking/thor/hellion/raven that smashes it badly because once vikings are in large numbers and stack up they obliterate all air before fungal can kill them | ||
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heaven-
United States361 Posts
1.Ghosts 2. Ravens 3. Loads of tanks. and probably vikings too. | ||
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
Too gas intensive.. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 24 2012 13:10 VPVanek wrote: The only problem with going Ravens in TvZ is usually they get fungaled to death. I would think you would also need to add in ghosts to EMP the infestors.. Too gas intensive.. Actually no, you can afford that composition on 5+ bases. 10 geysers is a lot. Edit: Also you should be able to take a 5th base before the Zerg gets pure Queen/Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor without any Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, etc, and until then you don't need this gas-heavy of a composition. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:47 heaven- wrote: Heavy Raven play seems to be the only way to keep up with the zerg late game deathball. As for the late game Protoss ...I have no idea. I would assume its going to be a mix of these units: 1.Ghosts 2. Ravens 3. Loads of tanks. and probably vikings too. ....what Please explain this. I just don't see this combo doing anything in TvP. | ||
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MarTerran
Germany8 Posts
With a hug amout of bases on our own, which is possible due to PFs and sniping Zergs bases, which is supereasy due to 3-3 Marauder, our reinforcement is so much better. We just need to trade efficiently. Zerg will go Roach, Ling, Bling, Infestor, Ultra.. A mixture of these units (mostly likely not all of them) BL - Corr is too slow.. and we could, if necessary, produce a crap ton of Vikings Hydras are crap in general.. Mutas are waste, because they die in main engagements and Harassment isn't really possible, due to the fast ups and massive income (which allows) to build a lot of turrets.. And our Bio is as mobile as their mutas are. So we have: "Roach, Ling, Bling, Infestor, Ultra" - with decent micro it is possible to beat this.. Marauders are good against everything except for Ling.. therefore we have marines.. And in general.. Splitted Marines are awesome.. I think this pure Bio is very viable.. Sure, it is a bit difficult, because if your whole army gets fungled and you don't have enough reinforcement (like 12') the game is mostly over.. So pre-splitting is very important, even let the army patrol is better than just hold position  With constant aggression, it way more difficult for Zerg to get into Late Game, and if they are, it's as i wrote above. But i have no idea in TvP  (Protoss is just Op :D) | ||
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Fission
Canada1184 Posts
On June 24 2012 14:36 iAmJeffReY wrote: ....what Please explain this. I just don't see this combo doing anything in TvP. I'm pretty curious too. I'm thinking that you would build rings of auto-turrets around the zealots, trapping them inside, and then shooting them with tanks, and landed vikings. Maybe even nuking them too. Picture for illustrative purposes only, do not attempt this at home. _____ | zzz | - [=_] pewpew tanks | zzzz | - [=_] | z | - - [=_] |zzzz | -- [=_] + Show Spoiler + This is almost as good as HSM'ing your own cloak banshees to act as suicide bombers | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
this is what i came up with: (maps are daybreak and cloud kingdom) - 1rax fe (send scout before depo finishes to ebay block zergs natural, works every time and forces the zerg to either get his 3rd first, in which case we go and block that too, or go pool first. Anyway, his natural is going to finish at about the same time as yours) - as i build my nat i go double gas and put in 4 scvs - build atleast 1 bunker on nat choke, send another scv scout to zergs 3rd if you see 3rd just wall with depots and go straight for double starport if no third, start siegemode asap, get tanks on hg, add a bunker, - float out your rax, give reac to a new factory (at this point you can decide whether you want 2 reac factories or 1 1 fac means mor macro orbitals, 2 means more harrasment potential and more security regarding cracklings. - get macro orbital, ebay, armory and a cc to take a forward base! (this is important, on daybreak take the typical 4th first and secure it with some tanks behind the mineral line so that they cover the entrance to your not yet placed 3rd and are protected by your pf - make turret ring in main, couple of turrets at all bases (mutas can straight up kill you if you dont! mainly because we have been lazy about our thor production up to this point. - make 2 vikings then 4 - 6 banshees, upgrade building armor+ hisec, hsm raven startingenergy - make depo wall at 3rd base back door, let it be covered by 3 tanks behind the 4ths mineral line -now, in the ideal case, we have a pf on the front base, 4 bases total, 1 macro orbital, 5 factories, 2 reac 3tlab, 2starports 2 armories getting +attack for air and ground building armor and hisec, a turret ring, tanks and buildings at our 4th, about 5 thors, around 8 tanks! no less no more! ah good chunk of hellions that we try to trade for lings and drones( with or without BF, it doesnt really matter all that much, a small fleet of banshees, some stray ravens with atleast 100 energy each. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- zerg should be on 5 bases and a couple of macrohatches and be looking to trade low cost units while building up either broods or ultras. here is what we are trying to accomplish: we put banshees on a seperate hotkey and use them to try to snipe hatcheries, make the b*tches fly! hellions are on a speperate hotkey aswell, they dive in whenever we see that the main army is out of position and try to snipe drones. Split those up, they are much better when you like put 4 of em behind each mineralline zerg has and are much more annoying to deal with this way. use the ravens singlefile, dont ever group them up and fly them alltogether without the protection of your mech balL! what er do is we pick 1 raven at a time and send it out to drop 2 auto turrets at a location of our choice, then make them fly back to our main defense point where we have some idling scvs on auto repair. recharge energy, go again. so basically we have this 3 way harrasmentstyle of hellion banshee raven and just try to hurt zergs infrastructure while building up a doom ball of thors tanks ravens and later on bcs. what we need skillwise: multitasking! and efficient hotkeymanagement. mouse skills are not as important. eg we dont have to split units, ever! all we need to do is slowly claim the map and never let go on the harassmentfront. timings we can be troubled by: 2 base roach ling attacks or ling bane attacks, that hit before we have siegemode done these can be expected if you dont see a 3rd for zerg by around 8:30 and should be defended by pulling scvs back into your main and spreading bunkers while waiting for siegemode to finish. dont worry about losing some depots in your wall or the marines in the bunker, just dont donate your scvs or tanks. 3 base roach ling bane timings that try to deny our forward base from morphing into a pf and thus let us claim center ground this can be rendered harmless if we leapfrog our tanks properly and use our rax for vision 3 base muta timings that hit when we slacked of on turret and thor production you will occasionally get killed by this, there is no real way around it. even i you have a turret ring and thors, mutas will still do damage to you since we are delaying thorproduction to the point where we cannot afford not to build them. still if you die to this your scouting was off. a big indicator for mutaplay vs mech is the absence of a roach ling timing!!! maxed broodlord armies that hit us without us having an additional reac starport up if this comes at you, retreat slowly, gather your harrasment forces and either try to basetrade with your banshee raven while defending with your thors and the emergency vikings, or if you have enough energy on your ravens, carpet those broods with seekermissiles! and finish them with vikings. in anycase you DO NOT want to fight this army on open ground, retreat to your pf and buildings so that you are atleast covered from ground forces. as a finishing word; we dont need to straight up attack at any point in the game because our force will eventually become much much stronger then what the zerg can muster up. thus, there is no reason for us to attack until it is very clear that we have a definit army advantage and the productioncapability to trade gas units. thats it. works like a charm, makes zergs ragequit, and ignores creepspread. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
I mean first comment I read after seeing the dps post was "wow reapers are incredible. why aren't terran using them. no wonder they are losing." It's comments like these that make me wish people had their league pinned to their username. The fact is reapers are bad. Not terrible, but certainly not worth the expense. I have tried them in TvP late game and you're better off investing the minerals and gas into ghosts. The best (and only) way to win late game TvP is to mass PF the main chokes. Get +2 armor, +1 range, mass ghosts, get nukes and mass drop. In the meantime you can get 3-4 starports and tech to 3/3 battlecruisers as you mule away your side of the map. If you can successfully get PFs established in the choke, you are in a really good position. Again, battlecruisers are great in Tv, but you the necessary condition to attain them is a bunch of PFs at main chokes so you have the time and map control you need to trade down supply in drops and produce BCs. I actually wish the Raven was more useful. It's so expensive and has so little utility. I actually played megaton many, many times with mass Raven so I could effectively shift click all of its spells and master the unit. Unfortunately, I haven't even been able to use the Raven much because I cannot win any macro game TvZ (rank 1 master last season). Literally on sc2 gears, I have gone 0-12 in macro games, so ever since I just cheese Zerg every game until this game gets balanced. But my point is that the Raven is weak and expensive. Sure in late game v. BL/infestor/corrupter, you would like them for HSM. But note that you're still less than even with the Zerg even if you have 16 Ravens. Because all it takes is 1 fungal, 1 moment and it's GG. Or even 1 tech switch for that matter to ultra. Ravens cannot cast whilst being fungaled and fungal outranges HSM. Additioanlly, Infestors and ultras can outrun HSM on creep. | ||
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oZe
Sweden492 Posts
It's kinda funny to me no terrans where complaining when a few ghosts could win a game where zerg was so massively ahead nobody even thought it was possible. Where 111 was basically autoloss for protoss. Ofcourse you will win less when the game is balanced because you won because race was OP not because skill was OP. A diamond terran a few months ago probably had the skill of a platinum zerg or protoss. I play random because I am achieve whore. However when I am on losing streak I play terran just to get a win and that still works even though I am alot better with zerg. When I watch progames today game seems quite balanced. When I read the forums there is just terran whine everywhere. Infact if I was a terran I would switch race just to not be associated with all the bitch ass whiners. Ps. I take bets on warning or ban ^^ 5 to 2 , hard to give good line since I don't know if mod plays terran LOL User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Sovern
United States312 Posts
TvZ Thor/Ghost/BC is probably the best unit composition that you can get, you just need to be able to get off key emps on infestors and utilize yomato. The problem with this unit comp is that its very immobile so you'd have to reinforce your expansions with PF's to buy you enough time to defend your expansions. Reasons why this unit comp is amazing, Thors are excellent vs ultras, clumped corruptors & Broodlords, and good vs every zerg unit. Ghosts can be used to harass with nukes and can nullify infestors while supporting the thors/bcs with snipe, and BC's are good because in mass (16+) they can snipe Zergs T3 with Yomato. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
Why shouldn't we use the Thor+Marine+Banshee composition, which uses MMA, Jjakji and NaDa in the past? I just would replace the Marines with Hellions to open up new ways of harassment and easier dealing with Zealot heavy compositions, because they melt against hellions. I try this a couple times these days and it works really well. (just diamond) The build looks like 1 rax fe with cloak banshee into Thor Hellion. On 2 Base i get 3 Fac (TTR)+2 Starports (TT) and maybe 2 Armory for double upgrades with this mass thors+banshee and hellion you are really save against everything in the mid and early game. I dont understand why terrans play with heavy tank compositions. Yeah sure they are really powerful if you siege them up in time but protoss is so mobile they can just outrun you. Maybe they just outrun me but the point is you dont have to siege up with Thor+Hellion+Banshee. You can scan and snipe observer and mass banshees with no obs against protoss is really fun. For this reason they are afraid to attack into this mass banshee force. I get 250mm cannon on 2 Base because you can snipe immortals, archons and collosi and they die instant. On maybe 4-5 Base you can transition into BC+Ghost but i dont that experience with it, because my hellion+banshee harassment is so hard that every protoss left the game before. I'am really interested in your opinion about this composition. | ||
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