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On June 22 2012 05:20 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. NO. NO. You don't get to tell me stuff that you don't have proof of. Nobody has ever done it in a pro game. There is a reason for the fact nobody has done it in a pro game. I know the reason. You pretend you don't know the reason. Go on ladder immediately, make this, come back with replay. You have a deadline of 3 hours. If you can't, I call your words complete and utter bullshit. Man, I am so tired of people that throw random ideas and thinking they are right just BECAUSE they think so. By the way, I personally can beat mass void ray with almost any combination I can think of as terran, especially with the most standard, that is MMMGV.
MVP did Ghost/BC vs Squirtle. If he didn't get Vortex'd he would've won.
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On June 22 2012 05:29 Fencer710 wrote:
In all seriousness, the reason you haven't seen anything like this is because it's near impossible to tech to without dying in the process. Of course no one's ever done it in a pro game except for Mvp in the GSL finals when it was a split map situation.
He did it in a TvT. Toss HT zealot composition is superior than BC Raven Ghost.
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On June 22 2012 05:32 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:29 Fencer710 wrote:
In all seriousness, the reason you haven't seen anything like this is because it's near impossible to tech to without dying in the process. Of course no one's ever done it in a pro game except for Mvp in the GSL finals when it was a split map situation. He did it in a TvT. Toss HT zealot composition is superior than BC Raven Ghost.
Err, I meant the recent GSL finals against Squirtle. Edited.~
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On June 22 2012 05:28 joeschmo wrote:
lol seriously wickedskies, YOU HAVE NO PROOF IT DOESN'T WORK EITHER...you sit around here telling ppl BC/RAVEN doesn't work because pros don't use it....PROS NEVER TRIED IT....it doesn't matter if we make a replay of it working anyway because you will just say," herp derp, it's not MVP VS DRG WHO DID IT, THEREFORE NOT VIABLE EVER".....when pros start doing it, then you can talk....& don't you dare say, "what you don't think pros have been trying this for 2 years? of course they have! herp derp" YOU HAVE NO PROOF THEY HAVE BEEN.....god you are a little snob, these guys are just trying to improve the style of play and instead of being nice on why it won't work you insult everyone as if you are MVP, YOU'RE NOT...at your level high masters on EU, MKP CAN MAKE IT WORK VS THEM PLAYERS & you know it...Dragon has made it work on grandmaster korea.... If bc/raven vs zerg becomes normal we expect a formal apology from you.
Also, I agree it would be more difficult vs a protoss than a zerg to make something like this work
Herp derp. Go to ladder. Make said strat, make a replay, share replay, come back. You have 3 hours. You will have an apology once I get my replay. Surely this build, being so great and the future of TvX, should be relatively easy to execute vs people you get matched against on ladder. After all, they should be roughly equal to skill to you.
For your information, MKP can make any build work vs mechanically weaker players than him. I can beat a gold player using only reapers. Do I go around saying 'Maaan, reapers are the future of TvX'?
The future of TvX would be in such a strat that would allow wins to be achieved where the skill requirement would be roughly equal for both players. Play on ladder with your account and win with raven bc vs toss or zerg, then share the replay. If you can't, maybe it is time to accept that the future of TvX is actually in buffing terran.
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United States15275 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Show nested quote +Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. Show nested quote +battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly.  BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's.
This theorycrafting sounds pretty pointless to me. Fully upgraded carrier/colossus/high templar/archon can theoretically destroy any other late-game composition, but it's absurd to believe that there will ever be a reliable way to get there.
It's not just that late-game terran comps are hard to get, it has very bad synergy compared to the other racial armies. Too many units in the terran race do the exact same thing in a straight-up fight.
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On June 22 2012 05:30 sieksdekciw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 22 2012 05:28 dGHaiL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:24 sieksdekciw wrote:On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:
Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. And one neural takes a battlecruiser out, then the bc yamatos another bc. Also, one neural takes your ghost and he emps all over the other ghosts. See, everybody is big on words. How often do you see a neural on a ghost? That would be one sick neural to EMP the rest of the ghosts - if you haven't sniped the infestors by the time they get close enough to neural a ghost, or they haven't exploded from tank fire, you're already in trouble. Hey, American. how often do you see BC's vs toss? This would be one sick game.
I'm not sure I understand your tone. If it's sarcasm, then I almost never see BC's versus protoss.
I wasn't arguing against that strategy, I was providing my own method to the TvZ matchup. At master's level, I haven't reached a level where imbalance should really effect the outcome of my games. I'm not playing anywhere near the level of some of the pro players. If pros are saying a matchup is imbalanced, I believe them. But in the meantime, I'll continue to provide methods which work for me. (And are enjoyable, too).
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Guys, I don't think the answer is "BCs" I think the answer is putting them in the composition, not just making that your build and massing BCs, that's not practical.
Terran's have starports, for vikings, medivacs, banshees. If you open banshee, or even 1-1-1 banshee expand, you have a tech lab starport right there. You can switch off it for a bit to get up a medivac count, but then move back to it and add in some BCs. I'm not talking sky-terran, I'm talking Overwatch for your Bio force. Still be active on the map doing drops, still be hitting where you can, but the purpose is to get your BCs/Banshees as "support" units in your late game clash with the protoss army. The DPS from BCs is quite large, and they're not susceptible to zealots, colossus, force fields, etc, which is what the rest of your army is afraid of. Yamato's can take out colossus or immortals, or really anything scary. Worst case, HT feedback them at full energy and you still have a tanky unit, and banshee DPS support.
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On June 22 2012 05:40 dGHaiL wrote:
But in the meantime, I'll continue to provide methods which work for me. (And are enjoyable, too).
But why did you not say so. Please, feel free to provide a replay and educate us. Maybe you will be the one evolving TvX.
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On June 22 2012 05:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly. BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's. This theorycrafting sounds pretty pointless to me. Fully upgraded carrier/colossus/high templar/archon can theoretically destroy any other late-game composition, but it's absurd to believe that there will ever be a reliable way to get there. It's not just that late-game terran comps are hard to get, it has very bad synergy compared to the other racial armies. Too many units in the terran race do the exact same thing in a straight-up fight.
No, I've actually played this composition in Phantom mode. I'll share replays if you like, though I don't have many and they're really long.
I agree with you that they synergize badly. This makes them even harder to get. Edit: Without dying to a straight up attack.
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On June 22 2012 05:42 Felnarion wrote:
Guys, I don't think the answer is "BCs" I think the answer is putting them in the composition, not just making that your build and massing BCs, that's not practical.
Terran's have starports, for vikings, medivacs, banshees. If you open banshee, or even 1-1-1 banshee expand, you have a tech lab starport right there. You can switch off it for a bit to get up a medivac count, but then move back to it and add in some BCs. I'm not talking sky-terran, I'm talking Overwatch for your Bio force. Still be active on the map doing drops, still be hitting where you can, but the purpose is to get your BCs/Banshees as "support" units in your late game clash with the protoss army. The DPS from BCs is quite large, and they're not susceptible to zealots, colossus, force fields, etc, which is what the rest of your army is afraid of. Yamato's can take out colossus or immortals, or really anything scary. Worst case, HT feedback them at full energy and you still have a tanky unit, and banshee DPS support.
This is really iffy... They could work, if it's really late-game TvP and you've been upgrading ship weapons and armor from your armory, and you have a lot of spare gas, even after getting a lot of Reapers, Ghosts, Medivacs, Marauders, and Vikings as your primary composition.
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United States15275 Posts
On June 22 2012 05:45 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly. BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's. This theorycrafting sounds pretty pointless to me. Fully upgraded carrier/colossus/high templar/archon can theoretically destroy any other late-game composition, but it's absurd to believe that there will ever be a reliable way to get there. It's not just that late-game terran comps are hard to get, it has very bad synergy compared to the other racial armies. Too many units in the terran race do the exact same thing in a straight-up fight. No, I've actually played this composition in Phantom mode. I'll share replays if you like, though I don't have many and they're really long. I agree with you that they synergize badly. This makes them even harder to get. Edit: Without dying to a straight up attack.
Do you have ladder replays?
The lack of synergy with late-game terran makes these claims pretty hilarious. If we need 20+ battlecruisers to actually make battlecruisers effective that doesn't say much about the strength of BCs.
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On June 22 2012 05:56 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:45 Fencer710 wrote:On June 22 2012 05:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly. BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's. This theorycrafting sounds pretty pointless to me. Fully upgraded carrier/colossus/high templar/archon can theoretically destroy any other late-game composition, but it's absurd to believe that there will ever be a reliable way to get there. It's not just that late-game terran comps are hard to get, it has very bad synergy compared to the other racial armies. Too many units in the terran race do the exact same thing in a straight-up fight. No, I've actually played this composition in Phantom mode. I'll share replays if you like, though I don't have many and they're really long. I agree with you that they synergize badly. This makes them even harder to get. Edit: Without dying to a straight up attack. Do you have ladder replays?
No. I might have done one or two games with mass BC a long time ago, but those replays are long gone.
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On June 22 2012 05:58 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:56 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 22 2012 05:45 Fencer710 wrote:On June 22 2012 05:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly. BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's. This theorycrafting sounds pretty pointless to me. Fully upgraded carrier/colossus/high templar/archon can theoretically destroy any other late-game composition, but it's absurd to believe that there will ever be a reliable way to get there. It's not just that late-game terran comps are hard to get, it has very bad synergy compared to the other racial armies. Too many units in the terran race do the exact same thing in a straight-up fight. No, I've actually played this composition in Phantom mode. I'll share replays if you like, though I don't have many and they're really long. I agree with you that they synergize badly. This makes them even harder to get. Edit: Without dying to a straight up attack. Do you have ladder replays? No. I might have done one or two games with mass BC a long time ago, but those replays are long gone.
... You realize that phantom mode isn't the actual game? in any case, I don't think that raven BC can be used in tvt (we've seen it needs vikings and thors and etc.) But in the other two match ups, you have to be so passive, you might just die while trying to get this composition without at least one of the following: tanks, planetaries, or massive numbers of bunkers (which isn't that good against zerg)
Also, the problem with ravens being part of the ultimate composition due to the fact that they have aoe with hunterseeker missile, all you're making the enemy do is micro their army so it isn't as clumped up.
I have tried to play mech in tvz (will provide replays if necessary) and did go up to battle cruisers and banshees, but have not tried to get ravens. The thing is, the style that I played relied heavily on the opponent attacking into me with their "ultimate composition" purely because I needed the planetaries to "crush" their army.
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No late game army in SC1 was completely useless piecemeal.
The process to get to late game T, for instance, was built on the same army that the late game T used. When you transitioned to mech, mines and tanks were useful. When you transitioned to carriers, your first carriers were useful.
BC's and ravens are not that solution. The units suck, and they don't work unless you have a ton of them.
However, ghosts STILL need to be relooked at. Mass ghosts CAN be viable.
Against Z, however, scrollwheel trick would be needed (alternatively make snipe 50energy50dmg/100psionic).
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Ravens are actually really really bad, since no one has done the math for them.
A raven is 100/200 and 2 food.
At 100 ENERGY it produces PDD that represents 280 damage blocked against vikings/corruptors. You just spent 300 res, 60+45s for an unit that does NO damage, and represents 1-2vikings/corruptors in HP.
At 125 ENERGY (60s+90s) it produces an AOE that does 1/2 the target unit's HP (corruptor/BL).
This unit is BAD. It sucks, and is not efficient against time or cost. That is NOT what you want in an endgame army, especially one that you transition to. If you had 20 of them, of course you would blast through enemy air, but you could do that with 20 templars, or 20 infestors, except they would blast through everything.
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Let's look at ghost though.
200/100 2 food.
3/3 TvP, ghost do 14.6 DPS vs zeals, 6 vs stalkers. Compare against 2 marines doing 17.4.
But this is actually REALLY REALLY good, because 30 ghosts means EVERYTHING is EMPed. Archons are worthless, zealots are easy enough, and stalkers lose 1/2 HP automatically.
Mass Ghost IS viable, but the problem isn't the unit, it's the game - getting a 4th, 5th base is not easy in a lot of cases/maps. Accumulating ghost without letting P outbank you dramatically is also not easy. If it takes you 4-5m to get 30 ghosts, what good is that when P has 3k banked and a 60 food warpin during the fight? But there is some potential.
***
TvZ
At creation, 4 food of ghost represents 150 burst damage against Z. At max, 400.
At creation, 6 food of ghost represents 225 burst damage against Z. At max, 600.
Same deal. Except less pronounced. If you COULD somehow do a few hundred snipes quickly enough, mass ghost CAN still burn through ultra/BL. Mass ghost makes it so time is on YOUR side. The more energy, the more efficient the ghost is trading against Hive. This is of course ignoring the utility the ghosts have against infestors, which is also a huge deal.
Compare the utility and damage of the Ghost against Raven or BC, and I think it will be clear which unit has the most potential.
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IMO in surpreme late game TvP terran is favored, Naniwa agrees, for a few reasons:
-On a map like Metro/ Daybreak, how does a protoss kill a turtling terran who has 20 vikings, 15 ghosts,maxed 3/3 bio, and defensive planetaries? you often times can not attack cost efficiently into that.
-Meanwhile, the terran is saccing all of his SCVs on minerals and going mass orbital. He then replaces that supply with even more scary units (more ghosts to make storms/archons irrelavent, so many vikings to negate any amount of colossus, and due to the non-supply of mules; enough bio to handle any protoss gateway composition ie mass chargelot).. at this point the terran can 100% of the time win with the massive army-supply lead he has (with proper army control)
So if you keep that in mind, you can then alter your mid-game playstyle to try and get to that point. Most terrans think throughout the whole mid-midlategame 'MUST KILL THE TOSS NOW!" and they get crushed by an equal army-supply protoss army... instead you could just defend w/ planetaries and set up archs with your army to survive until you can start saccing 90% of your SCVs and win later
tldr, change your mindset to "aggresive" mid game, to "passive-aggressive (never fully attacking, instead double dropping, constantly adding bases, defensive planetaries, and missile turret rings)
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On June 22 2012 05:58 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:56 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 22 2012 05:45 Fencer710 wrote:On June 22 2012 05:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. Don't make suggestions you haven't tried playing out. Suggesting raven bc is good vs toss is same as suggesting it is good vs zerg. Zerg can beat it with bl infestor, AND can beat it with ultra infestor ling since battlecruisers just don't have the mobility or the damage burst to kill ultras before ultras devastate your far away base. It's just as simple as that. It's almost impossible for the Protoss to FB fast enough to kill all of your Ravens/BC's before they cast HSM/Yamato on the Protoss' heavy/clumped units. Two Yamato Cannon blasts kill an Ultralisk, plus they can be delayed by Auto Turrets and PF's. battlecruisers don't have enough damage output to kill zealots fast enough, nor stop their movemement. Remember, battlecruisers don't have the damage output of broodlords nor their blocking ability. So, whatever is BELOW the battlecruisers will die. And then the storms are coming. They do not, but that does not take away from their own ability to fight. BC's still do a lot of DPS when they're all shooting at once, which kills Zealots very quickly. BattlecruiserAs you can see it does about 35 DPS against Ground, just think when 20+ of these are shooting at once how fast Zealots will melt. Auto Turrets can provide cover for any ground units underneath the BC's. This theorycrafting sounds pretty pointless to me. Fully upgraded carrier/colossus/high templar/archon can theoretically destroy any other late-game composition, but it's absurd to believe that there will ever be a reliable way to get there. It's not just that late-game terran comps are hard to get, it has very bad synergy compared to the other racial armies. Too many units in the terran race do the exact same thing in a straight-up fight. No, I've actually played this composition in Phantom mode. I'll share replays if you like, though I don't have many and they're really long. I agree with you that they synergize badly. This makes them even harder to get. Edit: Without dying to a straight up attack. Do you have ladder replays? No. I might have done one or two games with mass BC a long time ago, but those replays are long gone.
It is definitely map dependant, but on a map like Metropolis u can split the map with defensive planetaries. Protoss can't cost efficiently attack into defensive ghosts with nukes, vikings and planetaries and u slowly work up a battlecruiser count while sacrificing ur bio slowly with multidrops and do some nuke harass. You end up having mass orbitals and sacrifice most of ur scvs making ur BC ghost bio army really strong. I've seen Jinro do this transition really well in a couple of games, and of course the MVP Squirtle final showed how u can effectively get into that position in the late game, MVP played a great game but made a few mistakes, the vortex was a big one but also i think it's better to have a mix of bio, ghosts and BCs rather than pure BC and ghosts. Of course, this would need more exposure and more games to be absolutely sure what is the best composition.
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On June 22 2012 05:20 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:16 Fencer710 wrote:First of all, I SEVERELY question the fact that 200/200 raven bc doesn't die. What is more, I am sure that it does die to any late game zerg/toss composition you can think of. What is even more, I have seen it happen on multiple occasions. It actually doesn't die to anything. About 12 Ravens and 20+ BC's kills literally every single composition in the book, besides Marines+Ghosts or Vikings+Ghosts with amazing EMP's. The problem is getting there. It's like massing Voidrays. To get to that critical mass, you have to sacrifice almost all of your SCV's and use mostly MULEs for economy, PLUS you need over 9,000 gas. NO. NO. You don't get to tell me stuff that you don't have proof of. Nobody has ever done it in a pro game. There is a reason for the fact nobody has done it in a pro game. I know the reason. You pretend you don't know the reason. Go on ladder immediately, make this, come back with replay. You have a deadline of 3 hours. If you can't, I call your words complete and utter bullshit. Man, I am so tired of people that throw random ideas and thinking they are right just BECAUSE they think so. By the way, I personally can beat mass void ray with almost any combination I can think of as terran, especially with the most standard, that is MMMGV.
I can't stand those kind of posts. Seriously, you are the epitome of the "mettagame" parrots that try to copycat what every pro do, and than fail and go cry about a race being imbalanced.
I really didn't wanna give away my exact strats, but proving a retard like you wrong is worth it.
Here are my first 2 replays, first 2 games I ever tried going BC/Raven actually. Well sorry, to be exact, in both games i tried going in with only BC's first (which doesn't work), but I did add ravens in the end.
Replay one: http://drop.sc/202118
First time I ever tried my strat. After the drop, I was always adding factories, but not this time. This time I got 4 tech starports instead of factories.
You can say the zerg didn't execute it that well, having lots of banked minerals at some point, but same can be said against me, cause if I didn't forget 4 marines in the bunker earlier, and dropped better (didn't lsoe a medivec with 2 marines), his hatch wouldn't survive with 15% HP.
Anyway, you see me going for early BC's and doing my first attack with pure BC's. They don't work too well vs curruptors, and if he'd go full Neural Parasite infestor I'd die, but then again, it way my first time trying it, I didn't realize how important ravens are. You can see that when I add ravens in the 2nd wave of BC's, he just can't stop me. This is also not where I had double PF's, I only thought of it after the game.
Replay two: http://drop.sc/202120
2nd time trying this strat in a non-practice game. This is the opposite of my first game, as I actually take out his hive with my first drop (lol).
Anyway, I do double PF + turret rings this time, and generally play the strat better. I do, however, get overconfident with my BC's, and go in without ravens. While this actually could work if I went for a place far from the zerglings/queens, I learned that you can't go pure BC's like that. If you gather other units near the curruptors, you can't really target the curruptors with yamato, and queens just add the nail to the coffin.
Anyhow, he didn't kill me, let me remax BC+Raven.. and now, you can see how that strat is actually efficient in TvZ. He had the best possible composition, Hydra+Curruptor, and I still beat it, with dozens of PPD's and Yomatos.
Watch this replay, and go learn some new strats. Maby it'll help you speak less bullshit.
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On June 22 2012 07:45 xOny wrote:
IMO in surpreme late game TvP terran is favored, Naniwa agrees, for a few reasons:
-On a map like Metro/ Daybreak, how does a protoss kill a turtling terran who has 20 vikings, 15 ghosts,maxed 3/3 bio, and defensive planetaries? you often times can not attack cost efficiently into that.
-Meanwhile, the terran is saccing all of his SCVs on minerals and going mass orbital. He then replaces that supply with even more scary units (more ghosts to make storms/archons irrelavent, so many vikings to negate any amount of colossus, and due to the non-supply of mules; enough bio to handle any protoss gateway composition ie mass chargelot).. at this point the terran can 100% of the time win with the massive army-supply lead he has (with proper army control)
So if you keep that in mind, you can then alter your mid-game playstyle to try and get to that point. Most terrans think throughout the whole mid-midlategame 'MUST KILL THE TOSS NOW!" and they get crushed by an equal army-supply protoss army... instead you could just defend w/ planetaries and set up archs with your army to survive until you can start saccing 90% of your SCVs and win later
tldr, change your mindset to "aggresive" mid game, to "passive-aggressive (never fully attacking, instead double dropping, constantly adding bases, defensive planetaries, and missile turret rings)
But that's the problem, if the protoss attacks when they have 3/3, storm, collosi, and archons and are maxed before we have the defensive planetaries and are saccing scvs, we have problems, because the protoss should be able to get 3/3 before we do. The micro of our end game army in this instance very hard which is a main reason that people are complaining and looking for a new composition. The situation you say is not just supreme late game, it's a situation that is almost impossible to reach and comes once in like 30 or 40 games.
And also, by the time we have this super max out, is it more efficient than a mech army is? There are more ideas to explore for compositions, and looking for that "ideal" composition is something that we need to aim for.
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