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This is a discussion thread: I want to brainstorm with other people to try to figure out how to get to the endgame safely and what the endgame of terran consists of.
As a lot of people know, the queen buffs force terrans into builds like 3OC, limiting their early aggression further and promote macro games in general.
Combine this with maps like Metropolis and we Terrans feel a bit screwed since the general consensus is that the terran lategame is weaker than the zergs and protoss, and that terrans need to do damage early to keep up with zergs and protosses.
But I want to consider if there's any way to make terran more viable in the lategame. Maybe it's time for terrans to become the super turtly aim-at-starving-you-out race that use their defensive capabilities to just grab half the map while being more cost efficient and slowly transitioning to a mixture of the gas and time heavy units that we can't get on medium/smaller maps that end faster. Maybe it's time for protosses and zergs to cry about our lategame for a change.
The main inspiration for this post is watching games like MVP vs Squirtle on Metropolis in the GSL finals, and also Bomber vs Ostojiy in the red bull battlegrounds.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/bomber-t-vs-ostojiy-z-g1-red-bull-battlegrounds-austin-group-c-day-1-6173789
We have a couple of issues first and foremost, that need to be answered.
Does terran even have a viable lategame composition in the non-mirror matchups? Is it possible to reach the stage in the game where you can get those units without dying, and what's the most efficient way to get there, also what unit composition is the shit in the lategame?
There are a couple of ideas regarding the terran lategame that have been readily accepted for a while, and maybe it's time to start making build orders and game plans around them.
One of these ideas is the mass orbital combined with SCV sacrifice to get a massive (up to 50-60 food more) standing army compared to the opponents.
Another idea is to use planetary fortresses as choke points and defensive areas to split the map in half and buy you enough time to transition into your late game tech armies while getting their upgrades.
If we examine the unit compositions being used in both matchups it's MMMVG vs Protoss and MMTankviking vs Protoss right now.
What units are possible to use in the lategame to replace the standard midgame armies that terrans use in both matchup who will also give additional benefits once you reach the point where you have done the transition?
The units we have availible that I can see having some lategame potential with this turtle-style are: Battlecruisers, Ravens, Reapers.
For Protoss I think replacing vikings with battlecruisers is a key idea. Your MMVG should transition into Marauder medivac battlecruiser ghosts. The battlecruisers can fill in the same purpose as vikings by dealing with colossi, especially if they can get yamato shots off, while also being useful vs the ground army of Protoss. It'll force a more stalker/HT heavy composition which marauders are good against, and which ghosts also excel against.
Reapers are also a unit that has some potential in lategame TvP, since they're basically more buff marines that can demolish bases a lot faster, do cliff harasses without using medivacs and trade a lot better against protoss ground.
Against zerg: Battlecruisers and Ravens could work well against everything the zerg has, considering Yamatos, PDDs and HSMs can deal with both corruptors and Infestors, while marine/marauders can keep the ground covered.
Saccing SCVs while using mules also allow for the terran to have a massive advantage in army supply while also enabling the terran to switch back into MASS marine/marauder that they opened up with if the protoss/zerg uses to specialized units to deal with the BC/Raven combinations, and as we all know. If the bio count gets to high and Z/P doesn't have the required "counter" unit, they simply die.
The key problems so far with these units have been the gas cost and time investment to tech to them, get their upgrades, and mass them up to the point where you're comfortable. The split map scenario with PFs and turtling on 4-5 base while getting all the upgrades and infrastructure to support a terran army that can trade well enough with zerg and protoss to starve them out and eventually crush them by superior army count is aimed at circumventing these problems.
These are some ideas that I've seen tossed around and in use by pros to some extent on the larger maps, especially Metropolis. Do you think it's viable? How do you think we can reach this stage of the game build order, strategy and unit composition-wise, and what compositions would work out well against either race in your opinion if not the ones I've listed.
PS: This kind of gameplay will result in long as hell games lasting 30+ ingame minutes at the very least. That is potentially a very big downside if you want to get more games out and don't have the patience for Goody style games.
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The general strategy I feel should be something like this:
You start up with the standard opening of 1 rax FE/3OC/Hellion opening etc and try to deal as much damage as you can, and once the zerg/protoss stabilize and get their super tech out you fall back into turtling, ready with the PFs and vikings/ghosts so you can delay their doom push up and successfully turtle on half map until you can transition to the lategame units that will allow you to take the fight to the opponents straight up instead of getting demolished by them.
The questions to me are the timings, what builds work better and worse with this kind of gameplan and strategy. If your eventual goal is air style terran with BCs, maybe pure bio play is better than the mech oriented marine tank in TvZ for instance.
Some other questions are when you should start making the PFs, when you should mass up on Orbitals and when you should start saccing SCVs. Should you be going for BCs or Ravens first? Which would help you further turtle up until you have swapped your army out for a lategame one and sacced SCVs?
Note: All of this depends on whether terran has a viable lategame or not, regardless of how hard it is to get there. If we can establish that they do have a lategame army that can compete with Protoss/Zerg and people start experimenting with getting there I think it'll eventually get easier and faster to reach to that point, so the discussion should be on the units for now, with strategy being less of a focus until the unit compositions in the endgame are established and agreed upon.
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On June 20 2012 22:58 Dalavita wrote:
Note: All of this depends on whether terran has a viable lategame or not, regardless of how hard it is to get there. If we can establish that they do have a lategame army that can compete with Protoss/Zerg and people start experimenting with getting there I think it'll eventually get easier and faster to reach to that point, so the discussion should be on the units for now, with strategy being less of a focus until the unit compositions in the endgame are established and agreed upon.
I don't think you can question the fact that 200/200 Battlecruiser/Raven with upgrades just does not die, ever (unless you get Archon Toileted... MVP). Particularly in TvP, I don't see any reason why you can't just build 3-5 extra Starports once you get 4 bases and start adding in Battlecruisers or Ravens slowly, because there's no way even all the Ghosts you're building are going to be eating up 4 bases of gas.
So, maybe it goes like:
Standard 1-rax FE into bio pressure. When you add the second Starport for the inevitable Colossi, instead of immediately building Vikings out of it or getting a Reactor, get a Tech Lab (which is quick to build), and research HSM and Corvid Reactor while pushing/trading. Then, as soon as those upgrades are finishing, drop 3 more TL Starports, a Fusion Core, and a second Armory. Use your bio/Ghost force to keep the Protoss expansion count as low AS POSSIBLE (obviously don't go all out if you can't engage effectively - the goal is to slow him down, not insta-kill him). Build up a few Ravens, and then switch into Battlecruiser/Marine/Ghost. With Raven support to spot Observers, you can make maximum use of EMP, and then if you split the BC ball appropriately, you just waltz over the Protoss player.
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I don't really see what you want to accomplish here. Re-invent the MU's?
I'm 0 in TvZ, so no comment on that.
But about TvP i really think that almost every terran should know how he wants the game, usually what i face (from P's PoV)
1. Some early marine-bunker pressure
2. Stim/concus/medivac timing.
2.5 Scout and react if any 2 base allin from P is coming.
3. Heavy drop/multi-pronged attack play.
4. Deny third of P as long as possible.
And lategame you want:
1. MMMVG
2. Good positioning
3. EMP's
Lot's of orbitals, and sacking ~30 scv's.
And ALOT of production, so you can remax fast.
Terran is strongest Early-Midgame, you should use it. I don't see why terran should be "surviving until the lategame", that's the P's position on the MU, maybe in TvZ it's like that.
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The real problem with "latgame terran" is that Marines and Marauders are so horribly inefficient in terms of supply (yet amazingly efficient resource-wise). If you go to other more supply efficient units, such as tanks, thors or battlecruisers - they have very little mobility - so you're going to need a lot of static D, otherwise units with any kind of mobility are just going to run around your big army, harass your worker lines, and kill off all your buildings.
I think everyone knows what the terran supply efficient units are, so its not a question of unit comp at all. The question is how to get a ton of these units, be safe against rushes, keep up economy-wise and have enough static defense? And once you have that, how do you attack in a way that doesn't have grave difficulty dealing with counter attacks? Even omitting counter attacks, once you have more than 3 bases, how do you defend on maps where there are multiple attack paths (i.e. most maps).
The issue isn't composition. It's positioning and tactics. Protoss and Zerg have mobile supply efficient units like blink stalkers, infestors, queens, pheonixes, etc. to answer these questions. The best things terran have which are supply efficient and mobile are ravens and.... vikings?
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On June 20 2012 23:26 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:58 Dalavita wrote:
Note: All of this depends on whether terran has a viable lategame or not, regardless of how hard it is to get there. If we can establish that they do have a lategame army that can compete with Protoss/Zerg and people start experimenting with getting there I think it'll eventually get easier and faster to reach to that point, so the discussion should be on the units for now, with strategy being less of a focus until the unit compositions in the endgame are established and agreed upon. I don't think you can question the fact that 200/200 Battlecruiser/Raven with upgrades just does not die, ever (unless you get Archon Toileted... MVP). Particularly in TvP, I don't see any reason why you can't just build 3-5 extra Starports once you get 4 bases and start adding in Battlecruisers or Ravens slowly, because there's no way even all the Ghosts you're building are going to be eating up 4 bases of gas. So, maybe it goes like: Standard 1-rax FE into bio pressure. When you add the second Starport for the inevitable Colossi, instead of immediately building Vikings out of it or getting a Reactor, get a Tech Lab (which is quick to build), and research HSM and Corvid Reactor while pushing/trading. Then, as soon as those upgrades are finishing, drop 3 more TL Starports, a Fusion Core, and a second Armory. Use your bio/Ghost force to keep the Protoss expansion count as low AS POSSIBLE (obviously don't go all out if you can't engage effectively - the goal is to slow him down, not insta-kill him). Build up a few Ravens, and then switch into Battlecruiser/Marine/Ghost. With Raven support to spot Observers, you can make maximum use of EMP, and then if you split the BC ball appropriately, you just waltz over the Protoss player.
As a protoss player, I have to admit that Battlecruisers are scary. The best answer we have for them is stalkers and void rays - which are two units I don't really want to make in TvP. Stalkers because they melt to tanks and marauders, Void Rays because they melt to vikings and marines. Tank/BC with a few vikings is definitely a force to be reckoned with in TvP. Like I mentioned above, though, the issue is that once the game goes late, you don't really have to deal with it - you can just go around it or attack at weak spots, because it's so incredibly immobile.
Edit: Also, feedback is a pain.
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Obviously our main problem with a lategame transition is our upgrades.
3/3 Bio is the most important, but we can definitely say that getting 3/3 Mech is not important.
If we can find a way to use our upgrades optimally (if it's even an issue in TvZ in the first place), I can see BC/Raven/Viking as a viable lategame composition.
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On June 20 2012 23:26 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:58 Dalavita wrote:
Note: All of this depends on whether terran has a viable lategame or not, regardless of how hard it is to get there. If we can establish that they do have a lategame army that can compete with Protoss/Zerg and people start experimenting with getting there I think it'll eventually get easier and faster to reach to that point, so the discussion should be on the units for now, with strategy being less of a focus until the unit compositions in the endgame are established and agreed upon. I don't think you can question the fact that 200/200 Battlecruiser/Raven with upgrades just does not die, ever (unless you get Archon Toileted... MVP). Particularly in TvP, I don't see any reason why you can't just build 3-5 extra Starports once you get 4 bases and start adding in Battlecruisers or Ravens slowly, because there's no way even all the Ghosts you're building are going to be eating up 4 bases of gas. So, maybe it goes like: Standard 1-rax FE into bio pressure. When you add the second Starport for the inevitable Colossi, instead of immediately building Vikings out of it or getting a Reactor, get a Tech Lab (which is quick to build), and research HSM and Corvid Reactor while pushing/trading. Then, as soon as those upgrades are finishing, drop 3 more TL Starports, a Fusion Core, and a second Armory. Use your bio/Ghost force to keep the Protoss expansion count as low AS POSSIBLE (obviously don't go all out if you can't engage effectively - the goal is to slow him down, not insta-kill him). Build up a few Ravens, and then switch into Battlecruiser/Marine/Ghost. With Raven support to spot Observers, you can make maximum use of EMP, and then if you split the BC ball appropriately, you just waltz over the Protoss player.
I don't know if you could support 3 TL starports, a fusion core and a second armory all at the same time. It sounds too gas intensive for the stage of the game you'd be at, i.e not the maxed out part with an army sitting on 3-4 bases piling resources. If you're making a tech switch I think that's when you should start doing it, when you're maxed out and neither player can attack into each other. I do agree with a tech lab starport over two reactor ones tho, just so you can start getting the raven upgrades a little bit faster.
The nice thing about TvP is that you usually get the air weapon upgrades anyway, which makes transitioning into BCs a lot more fluid. I can see getting the second armory around the point when you research +2 air weapon upgrades and going for the armor upgrade as well. This'll further help your vikings out against stalkers. If you know for sure the opponent is going colossus tech double armory could even be a viable alternative to get the BCs out faster while turtling, at that point I'd go for the BC transition at +2 air armor/weapons.
Do you not think PFs are crucial during the tech switching by the way? If not using PFs to delay the opponent I think a key aspect would be dropping him constantly just to slow him down making sure he doesn't push you while you transition. The main issue with this play is like stated earlier the weakness you have while switching everything over.
On June 20 2012 23:34 Rimak wrote:
I don't really see what you want to accomplish here. Re-invent the MU's?
I'm not trying to reinvent the MUs per say, but I'm trying to figure out a more lategame oriented TvX that actually skips the early/midgame timings in favor of turtling to the terran super units that can face off against P/Z head on without having to circumvent them all the time. It's like TvP now. Protoss focuses on lategame where their advantage lies so Terrans have these big midgame attacks. If terrans aimed for the lategame BC/Raven/Marauder/Ghost composition they'd be more defensive as well, so in a sense it would reinvent the MUs.
On June 20 2012 23:54 Treehead wrote:
The real problem with "latgame terran" is that Marines and Marauders are so horribly inefficient in terms of supply (yet amazingly efficient resource-wise). If you go to other more supply efficient units, such as tanks, thors or battlecruisers - they have very little mobility - so you're going to need a lot of static D, otherwise units with any kind of mobility are just going to run around your big army, harass your worker lines, and kill off all your buildings.
I think everyone knows what the terran supply efficient units are, so its not a question of unit comp at all. The question is how to get a ton of these units, be safe against rushes, keep up economy-wise and have enough static defense? And once you have that, how do you attack in a way that doesn't have grave difficulty dealing with counter attacks? Even omitting counter attacks, once you have more than 3 bases, how do you defend on maps where there are multiple attack paths (i.e. most maps).
The issue isn't composition. It's positioning and tactics. Protoss and Zerg have mobile supply efficient units like blink stalkers, infestors, queens, pheonixes, etc. to answer these questions. The best things terran have which are supply efficient and mobile are ravens and.... vikings?
I'd say Ravens and BCs are supply efficient and mobile due to being air mainly. Maybe banshees could be taken into consideration, but I don't like the gas intensiveness of a unit that you're going to transition out of (although banshees could have some lategame potential because of their stupidly high DPS while benefitting from the air upgrades)
Maybe putting PFs at key locations is terrans way of defending against the mobile Z/P armies while they get their good units. Upgrades like building armor and turret range become crucial for this task. Tanks are way to immobile to be considered in the lategame composition in my opinion, but maybe they can be mixed in somehow.
If we can agree that terran does in fact have potential lategame units. When should we start getting their upgrades, since getting bio upgrades is fairly crucial in all matchups, and do we need PFs, and if so, when?
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On June 21 2012 02:10 Dalavita wrote:
If we can agree that terran does in fact have potential lategame units. When should we start getting their upgrades, since getting bio upgrades is fairly crucial in all matchups, and do we need PFs, and if so, when?
Since the thread I posted this in got locked, I'll post it here.
+ Show Spoiler +I'll say the same thing I said in the plethora of other threads.
If 4/6 Queens become standard (most likely 6), I don't think going for a macro build will really help. We may have to go for a pressure-based opener into expansion to really punish the greediness of Zergs.
And as I said in the other thread, in order to get a lategame composition (BC/Raven/Viking/Ghost), then we'll have to optimize the timing of our upgrades to transition correctly.
Bio needs 3/3
Mech needs 2/0 (+1 for Siege Tanks vs Lings and +2 for Thor vs Muta)
After +2 Mech Weapons, we can probably put down another armory and go for Ship Weapons/Armor, and that'll make BC/Viking strong enough to take on BL/Infestor. Ravens would be used solely for PDD, and Ghosts to EMP Infestors.
Just a theorycraft idea.
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United States4883 Posts
I think the most difficult aspects are 1) terran has SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many upgrades...it's a real killer to sink that much gas into 3/3 bio then switch to 3/3 air and/or 3/3 mech. I honestly think this is the number 1 reason why it's impossible for terran to tech switch as often as zerg or protoss. The other problem is that a lot of gas and minerals are sunk in production facilities, thereby rendering a mass tech switch just completely unviable.
And 2) Mech is undoubtedly good...REALLY GOOD. But terrans have yet to find an "ultimate composition" for mech because all of the mech units are very specialized. The best example I can give about how flexible the definition of "mech army" is, is in TvZ, where the zerg player is CONSTANTLY doing tech switches in order to bait out more thors or more tanks or more hellions and just screw with the mech composition. That being said, it's hard to say HOW the terran should transition because that lategame mixture just hasn't been explored enough. I like that terrans are understanding the importance of lategame BCs and Ravens, but the real question is to what extent do we use them and can we afford them if we start transitioning to mech?
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The only really viable TvZ lategame ever was mass ghost and it was nerfed to the ground (just like everything else). There is no viable "standard" type lategame composition for terran and if you come up with anything that isn't standard it's going to get instanerfed to hell. Also, no matter what you come up with the answer to that is infestors because they counter both tightly packed small units(fungal) and big single units(neural parasite). They also counter air and cloak and they happen to be the standard ZvT for a reason.
User was warned for this post
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United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:40 Entteri wrote:
The only really viable TvZ lategame ever was mass ghost and it was nerfed to the ground (just like everything else). There is no viable "standard" type lategame composition for terran and if you come up with anything that isn't standard it's going to get instanerfed to hell. Also, no matter what you come up with the answer to that is infestors because they counter both tightly packed small units(fungal) and big single units(neural parasite). They also counter air and cloak and they happen to be the standard ZvT for a reason.
Okay Mr. Negativity. But I do agree with you on the ghosts: the game was broken the moment Blizz nerfed snipe. Still, making ghosts is pressing the easy button...this development is making terrans think about mech and really think about tech switches as well as becoming either a TON more aggressive in the early game or a TON more passive.
And I can, with total confidence, say that infestors are actually AWFUL against tanks  .
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Lets not devolve the thread into balance whining please. Try to keep it constructive.
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Even after the snipe nerf ghosts are still far better then ravens against BLs if you use the mouse wheel. And they dont need extra production and have other uses. They also do not take 3 years to be useful. I can kill 10 Broodlords with 12 ghosts with mouse wheel snipe without losing a single ghost at times. So i guess you need some ghost against zerg^^.
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Well, I have been trying to develop a strategy against zerg since the patch.
My first progress was a successful strat which involves a 1Rax FE, into x2+1 gas, and a timing a bit before the 10th minute with a combination of Stim + marine + marauder/Hellion/Tank + medivec, designed to take out his 3rd. It hits just a bit before his infestor pit or spine finish, so it usually catches him in a very very vulnerable state, and I manage to pick off his 3rd and get back to base. If not, I at least manage to kill many drones, and force him to spend the remaining larvae on Zerglings/Roaches.
While I attack, I build a CC in my base, which floats to my 3rd and becomes a PF at around the 10:40 mark. I got 6 gas, and a ton of minerals. Building a double armory.
From here, I used to do a mech build, adding factories and building tanks/Thors, but quite simple, it doesn't work vs Infestor+Brood+Mass Queen. So, I had to change my strategy.
What I'm writing atm is a very new strat that I've been trying for the last few days, but so far, my games using it have been won.
Keep dual air upgrades with the armories! Super important.
After your attack is done, switch one starport to the Rax Tech lab, use the factory/rax to build 3 mroe tech labs (or 2, if you had one on the factory), and build 3 more starports and a fusion core at the same time. Also, build an additional CC, you're going to need that if he does a huge bane bust on your PF (so you wont lose mining time, and he'll end up wasting around x2 of the PF's worth).
Switch the factory to a reactor, keep pumping hellions. They are used for map control, but in essence, they're a mineral sac.
Once the 4 Starports are ready, build 4 BC's. They, with turret support, should be enough to help you repel any muta agrresion, and by far any ground aggression. Keep building them until you got around 12 (research yomato somewhre in the middle). If your minerals go over 1400, add CC's. You'll eventually have to reinforce your 3rd with a 2nd PF, and when you float to the 4th, you should float 2 CC's there at once as well. But don't waste all the minerals on that, you still need minerals for BC's, and turret rings are not free as well.
At 12 BCs, start doing 2bc/2raven, and at that poitnt, you'll most likely need to sac some marines. You also should already have your 4th saturated, with x2 PF+turret ring.
DO NOT move out before you got at least 1 reven per 2 BC's, and HSM. I learned the hard way that when the zerg mixes all his muta/curpotor/queen/hydra with zerglings and overlords, you simply can't aim Yamato's at that bunch, you'll mostly hit zerglings. Not to mention that w/o PPD, hydras+Curruptors are too efficient vs Bare BC, even if they are 2/2 or 3/3.
Once you got dozens of CCs floating all over the place, turret rings all around, 4/5 Double PF bases, 4/5 Tech-lab starports, air 3/3, and a huge fleet of around 16 BC 8 Ravens, you can move out. PPD+Yamato counters corruptors so bad they cry, and PPD+HSM does the same to hydras, and PPD alone can help you clear 40 spore crawlers at the cost of just around 400 raven energy, with 0 losses. Just fly to his main, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on, until you've cleared the map. Remember, once you just clear his main tech structures, you already set him behind.
In case he thinks he's smart and tries to go for a base trade... remember those dual PF+Turret rings? Even if he does manage to break your expansions, you can just lift all your buildings and watch how his Ultra/Broodlords float around your base killing supply depots, while you take out the rest of his base. Believe me, you're gonna clear his buildings way faster than he can clear your 3~6 floating CCs+ the rest of the buildings, with his little curruptor force (assuming he had a large ground army, else he just wouldn't break through your expansions).
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France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:46 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:40 Entteri wrote:
The only really viable TvZ lategame ever was mass ghost and it was nerfed to the ground (just like everything else). There is no viable "standard" type lategame composition for terran and if you come up with anything that isn't standard it's going to get instanerfed to hell. Also, no matter what you come up with the answer to that is infestors because they counter both tightly packed small units(fungal) and big single units(neural parasite). They also counter air and cloak and they happen to be the standard ZvT for a reason. Okay Mr. Negativity. But I do agree with you on the ghosts: the game was broken the moment Blizz nerfed snipe. Still, making ghosts is pressing the easy button...this development is making terrans think about mech and really think about tech switches as well as becoming either a TON more aggressive in the early game or a TON more passive. And I can, with total confidence, say that infestors are actually AWFUL against tanks .
First, making Terrans think about tech switch is a huge problem. I'm not really happy to say that Terran is the race that has the most terrible tech switches in terms of time and gas (i put protoss behind, because they don't have to switch in terms of upgrades too), because it makes this race rely on the "one wonder composition", with just the addition of viking to it when needed (and ghosts in PvT). Actually, the only match-up where Terrans can go for a variety of builds is TvT... ZvT is very often about MarineTankViking, TvP is very often about MMMGhost/Vikings/both, Mech being quite not viable in TvP because of Mech killing unit called "Immortal", and in ZvT, it dies to infestor broodlords, since it's quite weak until it hit a very huge army count, and by then the zerg just expo'ed everywhere and ran to Hive tech.
I admit i've seen some exception, but which were executed by extremely talented players, and relying on the fact that it wasn't scouted (which is a lot more harder, if not impossible, with the huge creepspread and the Overlord buff for Z, and the Obs building time reduction for P)
And i don't know if you've ever seen a good ZvT with tanks and infestors, but infestors are just a wonderful tool to deal with tanks. They can pop out targets to divert the tanks while the whole army is charging, while being burrowed, thus making the zerg army arriving to tanks almost without taking any shot, which is as the tanks were unsieged when the zerg engaged. And nobody can disagree with the fact that a Terran being caught unsieged is quite often in a disastrous position.
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing (it forces T to be vigilant, it costs a few APM from the Zerg), but please don't say infestors are awful against tanks.
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France9034 Posts
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Builds like those is what I had in mind for TvZ @Maxsteel. I do agree that Raven/BC has the potential and the main question is how to get there with +3/+3 upgrades.
I'm wondering with your build. Do you start saccing SCVs at any point to get even more BC/Ravens out? Do you place PFs down everywhere for static defense outside the ones you mentioned?
I have a lot of coursework to do or I'd get cracking on spamming out games where I aimed for that, sadly.
Edit: I think what gives me the most "hope" about trying to aim for a composition like this is that it feels like terran has something to aim for and isn't actually fighting against the clock, so it feels like if I can do earlygame damage and turtle up I can get the strongest army head up eventually.
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I think that reaper is an actual option in lategame TvP. My coach from a long time ago taught me that once I'd hit max in TvZ, I should add some 3-4 rax with tech labs for ghosts. Now, if the same is done but with reapers instead, and we just drop away some supply and add in ~10 reapers, I think that Blizzard will find another thing to nerf with Terrans
I would like to add, that I am backing this statement up with a game ThorZain played against some Protoss I can't recall where ThorZain added in reapers in his army and just crushed the Protoss, can't remember where/what game it was 
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United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:54 Ragnarork wrote:
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing (it forces T to be vigilant, it costs a few APM from the Zerg), but please don't say infestors are awful against tanks.
You perhaps took that statement a little too seriously lol. I can't really explain without talking about "unit counters"...but seeing as how I don't believe in "unit counters", I'll just say that tanks are still one of the most viable options against infestors over thors or marauder hit squads in a direct engagement.
First, making Terrans think about tech switch is a huge problem. I'm not really happy to say that Terran is the race that has the most terrible tech switches in terms of time and gas (i put protoss behind, because they don't have to switch in terms of upgrades too), because it makes this race rely on the "one wonder composition", with just the addition of viking to it when needed (and ghosts in PvT).
I agree that terran has difficulty in tech switches, particularly with the amount of gas terran has to pour into additional buildings/add-ons/upgrades. But the ghost nerf has caused terrans to be more creative in their lategame army composition. And probably the best thing that's come out of it is that no one has figured out exactly 1 way to beat Blord/infestor, which makes the game strategy unique and interesting. So...as much as I totally believe the snipe nerf broke the game, I think this is probably for the best, especially in preparation for HotS.
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EPT
