|
On June 21 2012 19:57 Dalavita wrote:
Builds like those is what I had in mind for TvZ @Maxsteel. I do agree that Raven/BC has the potential and the main question is how to get there with +3/+3 upgrades.
I'm wondering with your build. Do you start saccing SCVs at any point to get even more BC/Ravens out? Do you place PFs down everywhere for static defense outside the ones you mentioned?
I have a lot of coursework to do or I'd get cracking on spamming out games where I aimed for that, sadly.
Edit: I think what gives me the most "hope" about trying to aim for a composition like this is that it feels like terran has something to aim for and isn't actually fighting against the clock, so it feels like if I can do earlygame damage and turtle up I can get the strongest army head up eventually.
I feel already kinda bad for giving away my strat.. but of well, I'll elaborate farther, for the sake of Terrans.
I'm not gonna mention any specific builds, since there are dozens of different 10min timings you can do from FE against zerg. Lets just say I get to the 11th minute having 3 bases with full gas (2 OC, 1 PF), the leftover of my timing units (if any survived, else just the defense I produced during the attack, usually a few marines + tanks), 2 ready tech labs, 2 rax that are making 2 more tech labs, 1 starport, 3 just-completed ones, a just-completed fusion core, and 2 just-completed armories. And that extra CC starting to build. Of course, if I see the zerg is not taking his 3rd and rather trying to bust me, I'll jsut quickly make banshees out of that 1 starport, marines out of the rax, and tanks.. but with my PF, that usually holds. If I see a muta nest, I need to make turrets.
At around the 11th minute, I start 1/1 air, and 2 BC's. In around 30 sec, I add another 2 BC's. All that time ,the factory is on the reactor, so I'm pumping 2 marines and 2 hellions at a time.
At around the 14th minute, my minerals start to skyrocket, and if he has mutas I'm making turrent rings + 1 CC, otherwice only a ring at the outer expansion + 2 CCs.
After the initial 4 BC's are out, he can't break you. your tanks+marines+BC should have good enough position to defend your main door, your PF+BC (they are mobile enough to move between 3rd and natural wall-off) should be able to defend you 3rd.
Not to forget, your hellion should be riding around the map, killing lonely ling scouts, expansions, and so on. You can also send x4 squads of marines to kill overlords.
At 8 BC, you should be pretty confident to land a dual CC on the 4th, and morth them into PF's while maknig a turret ring. Don't forget the gas! That's the main reason you even need that new base.
At 12 BC, start making 2 BC 2 Raven (which will be 4 BC + 6 Raven in 3 minutes).
Your 3/3 should be about to finish, your army should be strong enough, proceed to floating more CC's to different bases, Sac all your marines/medivecs if any are left, set <Current number of workers - 50> SCV's on autorepair and follow on your BC's. Make more BC's, while your main fleet flies into his main and kills everything.
Micro tip:
Bind you BC's on one key. Bind the ravens on another. Set ravens to follow BC's. When you need to move the army, jsut move the BC's. When you need to cast PPD (or sometimes, HSM, but usually PPD is better), press the Raven key, cast, switch to the BC key, Yamato, ???, profit.
For me, if the greedy zerg turtles and waits his usual auto-win, I already won the game.
Edit:
It's very important to note that while Terran do well with this composition vs Toss, the way to get there is different.
If you try this, toss are just gonna laugh at your PF and go streight for your main, and those 4 BCs and few marine/tanks are gonna do nothing versus a huge force of even simple HT/Blinker/Zealot army.
|
France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 20:11 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 19:54 Ragnarork wrote:
I'm not saying that this is a bad thing (it forces T to be vigilant, it costs a few APM from the Zerg), but please don't say infestors are awful against tanks.
You perhaps took that statement a little too seriously lol. I can't really explain without talking about "unit counters"...but seeing as how I don't believe in "unit counters", I'll just say that tanks are still one of the most viable options against infestors over thors or marauder hit squads in a direct engagement. Show nested quote +
First, making Terrans think about tech switch is a huge problem. I'm not really happy to say that Terran is the race that has the most terrible tech switches in terms of time and gas (i put protoss behind, because they don't have to switch in terms of upgrades too), because it makes this race rely on the "one wonder composition", with just the addition of viking to it when needed (and ghosts in PvT).
I agree that terran has difficulty in tech switches, particularly with the amount of gas terran has to pour into additional buildings/add-ons/upgrades. But the ghost nerf has caused terrans to be more creative in their lategame army composition. And probably the best thing that's come out of it is that no one has figured out exactly 1 way to beat Blord/infestor, which makes the game strategy unique and interesting. So...as much as I totally believe the snipe nerf broke the game, I think this is probably for the best, especially in preparation for HotS.
Well, about infestors, i would rather go with a few marauders to try to make the zerg waste fungals, if not losing a few infestors.
And though I promote creativity and constant evolution of the match-ups, i don't see where the snipe's nerf has caused creativity. Lategame terran versus Z is just as before the ghost were used in large groups, marine tank viking, with possibly a few thors (if the zerg relied on mutas, which isn't something really we see a lot these days). They just prey so that they don't get their vikings fungaled to death (spread + hit & run, still the fungal has a long enough range to be a very effective way to deal with it).
|
Ravens and Battlecruisers seem like a popular topic, so, some simple, useful numbers.
Each geyser provides slightly more than 100 gas per minute, if you populate it with three probes. Each Starport + Tech Lab spends 100gas/minute if you produce banshees, or 200 gas/minute if you produce Ravens or Battlecruisers. On three bases, you can run three starports of BCs/Ravens, but very little else. Probably not a strong plan. On four, you can easily run those starports and still afford some upgrades/ghosts/marauders (though not a huge number).
Also... nukes. They're cheap, eat no food, and allow you to bully the opponent's army around, or freak him out any time you feel like by nuking some empty spot on the map.
|
United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 20:31 Ragnarork wrote:
And though I promote creativity and constant evolution of the match-ups, i don't see where the snipe's nerf has caused creativity. Lategame terran versus Z is just as before the ghost were used in large groups, marine tank viking, with possibly a few thors (if the zerg relied on mutas, which isn't something really we see a lot these days). They just prey so that they don't get their vikings fungaled to death (spread + hit & run, still the fungal has a long enough range to be a very effective way to deal with it).
I'm not sure if I fully agree with that statement either. We've been seeing a lot more use of the raven recently in lategame encounters, as well as a general shift towards a lategame mech switch. Players like Bomber and LastShadow are really starting to ramp up lategame Raven production with HSM, and players like Polt have switched to almost entirely mechy compositions of thor/tank/viking/marauder to deal with Blords. Neither of these solutions would have arisen if the easy button hadn't been taken away from terran.
That being said, I think terran SHOULD start using a lot of mech tech in late game and transition to either ravens or BC after 4 bases. Ravens and BCs are like the Blords of terran...our job now is to just find the missing transition from heavy bio aggression into 4-5 base passive play much like zerg discovered the infestor/ultra/nydus stepping stones into Blords.
|
My ideal Lategamearmy versus Protoss is mass BC with 3/3 mixed with a couple of Ghost.
(note: I´m just a EU Platinumplayer, but I´m pretty sucessfull with this build, so it should work for the majority of the people out there)
This is the basic idea of my build:
I start with a Thor-expand. This makes a solid defense togehter with bunkers and marines because forcefields can´t prevent you from repairing and you can start your ship weapons upgrades really early. (I only get like 3-4 Thors through out the hole game, as I feel like they loose their momentum in Mid-/Lategame TvP.)
On two base: I have 2 barracks, 1 factory, 3 starport and get 1 raven, ~10 banshees and 3 vikings. As soon as I got cloak for the banshees and +2 shipweapons I start to harrass (3 vikings kill an observer with 1 shot) and establish my 3rd base.
On three base: I switch to Battlecruiser out of 4 starports and get some ghosts as soon as I have spare gas (yes, I emp my own BC´s). I get lots of baracks to spend my minerals on Marines and tons of bunkers an turrets with buildingarmour and -range upgrade and try to get a 4th base while harrassing with banshees. And of course I keep upgrading my air units.
If the Protoss attacks into my Bunker/BC/Thor defense I pretty much always win the fight. If he turtles just like I do, I get additional orbitals and planetaries and sacrifice workers and marines for more Battlecruiser and Ghost. If he gets voidrays I add some more vikings.
And yes, those games usually take like 25min+ but the lategamefight is so great, it´s worth it 
|
I was suppose the late game terran would be mech?
User was warned for this post
|
What units are possible to use in the lategame to replace the standard midgame armies that terrans use in both matchup who will also give additional benefits once you reach the point where you have done the transition?
The units we have availible that I can see having some lategame potential with this turtle-style are: Battlecruisers, Ravens, Reapers.
Actually I saw a stream (high master P) that faced a terran going late game reapers. Turns out that with good enough control they are very effective to take out HTs, especially with the speed upgrade, as well as providing new angles of attack for expo harassment. Nothing except blink stalker can chase them down, and even they fail at a cliff wall...
The early-mid game was fairly standard (gateway+immo=>collossi=>HTs) and the T did not have to turtle at all during the switch to reapers. Perhaps he just let them "trickle" in, its hard to tell since the stream was from the P perspective. I'm guessing you'll have to invest in a few more rax because of the extremely long build time (why cant the speed upgrade also reduce the build time?).
|
Thorzain has gone lategame reapers vs P a couiple of times. I've mainly seen it on Shakuras Plateau which is weird because it was a long ass TvP on that map that made me consider using reapers to begin with. Maybe it's because that map is easily split in half which gives you time to crank out reapers instead of marines, and also all the cliffs.
|
I think basicly lategame, just bio with adding helions against a lot of lings, vikings ofc for BL. Kind of the same as TvP lategame really. Maybe we should make helions there as well. xD
User was warned for this post
|
Hey maxsteel, i'm with you on this one. I do BC/RAVEN, and one thing I like to do is cut all bio upgrades & barracks add ons. I spend that gas on the PFs & Tanks you need for defense, it saves a lot of gas for the BC/RAVEN upgrades & units so you can get them out faster. I still make a lot of barracks for walls when I can or need to & upgrade bio later on incase my main army dies, marines still pwn. Also, something to note, putting a fast 3rd PF down where your fourth base would be & surround with buildings, it seems to be a good tactic. You won't have to fight for this position later on & you can take the third base rather easy (on the right maps ,of course).
|
Yeah, 4 bases of gas is what's necessary to support this kind of BC/Raven switch in the lategame, similar to infestor/broodlord. I think what we all SHOULD start doing is getting 1 Raven at least in the midgame to ride with our army (after all, in both TvP and TvZ we want a second Starport at some point, so why not make it a tech lab one?). In TvZ it will help us clear creep without scans as well as prevent Burrowed Infestor shenanigans, and in TvP it means we don't have to scan to snipe down Observers.
|
I just seen the code s group H (i think?) Where Ryung 2-0'd Leenock by delaying his tanks and using a bio bf hellion mid game composition where it kinda deny creep while still baiting units out of the zerg. It is risky and you might lose it any moment, and i know leenoc did not opt for fast infestors so i dont know how that would work out but theres still the possibility to deal early game damage and deny creep, to deny the lategame to zerg, while you get a simple composition and outmicro zerg.
|
On June 21 2012 22:59 Silencioseu wrote:
I just seen the code s group H (i think?) Where Ryung 2-0'd Leenock by delaying his tanks and using a bio bf hellion mid game composition where it kinda deny creep while still baiting units out of the zerg. It is risky and you might lose it any moment, and i know leenoc did not opt for fast infestors so i dont know how that would work out but theres still the possibility to deal early game damage and deny creep, to deny the lategame to zerg, while you get a simple composition and outmicro zerg.
Yeah. Bio-Hellion pushes are probably the most effective in terms of denying creep spread and still getting a good economy and tech.
|
Late game (20min+) sky terran is quite nice vs protoss. I expand hard in the midgame up to 5-6 bases, relying on PFs and a roaming banshee raven force to secure. And then transition into BC + Raven end game composition sacking SCVs for mules.
22 BCs and 14 Ravens are pretty damn hard to take out.
Good against:
Standard P deathball style
Archon-Zealot
Protoss Air
Tough to play vs:
Aggressive P, who use blink stalker mobility.
Mass expanded P, who can constantly remax as you kill their gateway units.
The hardest thing to deal with is the re-maxing issue and gas constraints on remaxing yourself.
|
On June 21 2012 23:09 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:59 Silencioseu wrote:
I just seen the code s group H (i think?) Where Ryung 2-0'd Leenock by delaying his tanks and using a bio bf hellion mid game composition where it kinda deny creep while still baiting units out of the zerg. It is risky and you might lose it any moment, and i know leenoc did not opt for fast infestors so i dont know how that would work out but theres still the possibility to deal early game damage and deny creep, to deny the lategame to zerg, while you get a simple composition and outmicro zerg. Yeah. Bio-Hellion pushes are probably the most effective in terms of denying creep spread and still getting a good economy and tech.
Exactly. Though i wouldn't be surprised if it also got nerfed .
|
On June 21 2012 23:11 rebotfc wrote:
Late game (20min+) sky terran is quite nice vs protoss. I expand hard in the midgame up to 5-6 bases, relying on PFs and a roaming banshee raven force to secure. And then transition into BC + Raven end game composition sacking SCVs for mules.
22 BCs and 14 Ravens are pretty damn hard to take out.
Good against:
Standard P deathball style
Archon-Zealot
Protoss Air
Tough to play vs:
Aggressive P, who use blink stalker mobility.
Mass expanded P, who can constantly remax as you kill their gateway units.
The hardest thing to deal with is the re-maxing issue and gas constraints on remaxing yourself.
I don't like sky terrans because i don't know why but Blizzard randomly gave all air units energy bars so they can get fedback(feedbacked or fedbacked?) especially BC's because it has to be really late into the game so you can spend it's energy. Though i've seen it work many times, so it can be viable, i think.
|
TvZ for super late game like on Daybreak,Shakuras ( and a map where 4th base is possible to take ) you can use this:
Open with your bio till the mid game and if you can't win and you can't brake his spine,bl,infestor wall. You can transition into mech because you will have 3/0 upgrades for your tanks. Drop 2nd armory after 2/0 and you will have 2 factories just from your marine,tank,medivac play. If you invested in addons insted of more raxes you can transition even faster. You will need 5facts and 2starports for raven,viking support if he went BL's you would have 2ports anyway. Start to mix hellions in the midgame with blue flame and cuting marines then add thors and viking for BL switch. If he is going ultras just focus on tanks. BCs i think are not viable option because require to much time to be build... so mech is the only option for late game transition because you will have the upgrades from your armory.
Maybe i don't explain it correctly but for me alot of BW vods helped me to be able to transition correctly. In BW is common to open some MnM in the midgame with tanks,vessel support and only 1/1 and then transition into mech when Z starts to get defiler,ultras. I think it will work even better in SC2.The hellion which ignores zergling upgrades and just melts everything. Zerg needs to have roaches to be effective in fights or have sick flanks which can be denied with scout and better positioning. If he choses to go roaches he won't have attack upgrades for them also tanks with other support destroy ultra,ling,infestor much faster than BW.
About TvP I can't help you because I mech there. I can tell you this BC with emp,raven,mech support melts whatever comp protoss has in head to head fight. The reason that i can't help you guys is because i don't see any windows of time where you can be able to switch into BCs or mech if you open bio. Your forces will be much more weaker with no upgrades because in TvP you upgrade only air and bio. Also you need to be really skilled player so you can split the map and be able to switch from bio to something else because that requires alot of time.
Your only reasonble transition is going BCs like MVP did because you will have the upgrades from vikings. So from this i can tell you your ULTIMATE composition should be ghost,raven,bc. Ghosts to counter casters an P in general, Raven with seeker to counter mass air like carriers,voidrays and BC's to deal dmg. The thing is this mix of units still die to the same things as MMMVG and you require the same set of skills - HIT YOUR EMP. What i'm trying to say is if you open bio stay with bio and get ghost viking and get good fights because if you try to transition you will die and if you get to your desired transition you can still die to the same things so just don't risk it.
|
We know that banshees trade well against Stalkers, medivacs are nice to support bio, and vikings kill colossi (a big part of our problem). So why not air? Keep the mobile bio force, keep going with the marines, marauders, and a few ghosts, but sprinkle in banshees and battlecruisers to taste. You don't need 10 battlecruisers. It's nice, but 3-4 battlecruisers fighting above your bio will make it beast. Battlecruisers have decent DPS, but big tank.
The only thing to truly worry about if you're friendly battlecruisers are HT. If that's the case, you can have them waste their feedback on it, which is time and energy they're not storming your bio with, or you can EMP your BCs. That's not such a good idea, as Yamato wipes the floor with a lot of protoss units.
Instead, I think the better option, is proper control of your ghosts to protect the BCs. Snipe or EMP the HTs before they can hit you.
You can theorycraft more, but I've always thought Terrans rely on their early game far too much. I think there's a lot of unexplored sky options that are viable.
|
On June 21 2012 23:57 Felnarion wrote:
We know that banshees trade well against Stalkers, medivacs are nice to support bio, and vikings kill colossi (a big part of our problem). So why not air? Keep the mobile bio force, keep going with the marines, marauders, and a few ghosts, but sprinkle in banshees and battlecruisers to taste. You don't need 10 battlecruisers. It's nice, but 3-4 battlecruisers fighting above your bio will make it beast. Battlecruisers have decent DPS, but big tank.
The only thing to truly worry about if you're friendly battlecruisers are HT. If that's the case, you can have them waste their feedback on it, which is time and energy they're not storming your bio with, or you can EMP your BCs. That's not such a good idea, as Yamato wipes the floor with a lot of protoss units.
Instead, I think the better option, is proper control of your ghosts to protect the BCs. Snipe or EMP the HTs before they can hit you.
You can theorycraft more, but I've always thought Terrans rely on their early game far too much. I think there's a lot of unexplored sky options that are viable.
I actually have been doing a bio/sky mixture that i copied from Debo if you've heard of him and he has a nice long guide with in depth on how to do it. Hmmm i tried to look for it but couldn't find it i dont think it got removed here's his youtube channel if you want to look for it http://www.youtube.com/user/DeboSc2
I think here's the part where he shows it for first time, and does it again in some later parts + Show Spoiler +
|
the problem is just that u would never be costefficent in the end, even if u fight costefficent, it just takes you way too much money u have to invest into infrastructure. While a toss for example will just have 15-25 gates in the superlategame and maybe 2 robos you will need to have like 20 barracks 3 factorys and at least 5 starports. And even then, the protoss could reinforce just that much quicker then u ever will be able to. As well you need to invest way more money into different upgrades like first of all go up to 3/3 bio and the go up to 3/1 airupgrades at least plus mech upgrades if u plan to add thors or siegetanks or helions. Plus u need to invest a lot of money into orbital command centers and pfs, plus a lot of upgrades like battlecruiser upgrades siegetanks blueflame....whatever u are goin for and u need a shitload of missleturrets sensortowers and so on.
In the end, even if the protoss is fighting less cost efficent then you, you will still find yourself mined out on ur site of the map before the protoss does.
so against protoss it will defenitely not work, against zerg i can imagine it will work eventually, but if u let the zerg alone for too long, he will reach that point where he has 5 bases + almost unlimited larva and money way before you will reach that point, so he will just threw one deathball after another on you and you will simply not be able to reinforce quick enough even if you trade really cost efficent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
