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Canada408 Posts
Hey everyone,
I would just like to say, please be careful when talking about how difficult keys are to press. Saying that a certain key is "easier" or "harder" to press is very subjective (which means its your opinion).
This absolutely does not mean your opinion is not valid. On the contrary, everyone on this thread has helped make TheCore that much better. All I'm saying is to be careful with terms. For example, "I find it hard press X because my finger curls too much" or "I find it hard to find = without looking" are both better than "I find Y hard". This is because it allows readers to know exactly what the problem is. For example, the curl with X is inevitable, while the hard to findness of = just takes practice.
Hope I'm not coming off as a dick. Please let me know if I am, or if this comment is unclear. 
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Another question:
I use the overlay for Protoss without mouse buttons.
But it still says forward mousebutton for next subgroup,
is this a mistake?
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Canada408 Posts
I don't understand what you mean. What overlay?
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Another question, are the visual aides up to date? Because they don't seem to agree with the spreadsheet right now. What should I trust as being "correct", the ingame keybinds, the spreadsheet or the visual aid? And why is there no download for the ones using mousebuttons? I did rebind the control groups that seemed a little out of place to the mouse buttons, but I just find it difficult to know what is the right and wrong ways of doing it since the information isn't really matching up.
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On April 27 2013 01:10 Solaris.playgu wrote:
Another question, are the visual aides up to date? Because they don't seem to agree with the spreadsheet right now. What should I trust as being "correct", the ingame keybinds, the spreadsheet or the visual aid? And why is there no download for the ones using mousebuttons?
TheCore team decided to stop distinguishing between mouse and non-mouse versions of TheCore. The visual aides are not up to date. I'm not sure about trusting the spreadsheet or the ingame keybinds, I believe the goal is that they should match.
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I tried the core some month ago and then give up because of to many change between the version.. (This was at the beginning), what is more i made a pause and just buy HOTS. I remember the learning process was painfull but satisfying.
I think to comit again on the core - now i come back and the core should be more stable - but i wonder how is the state of the random layout. Is he still evolve like other one ? The 3 races layout had many change to optimize some specific move (i think about creep spread, warping, queen's injection...), this change are they reflected in the random one ?
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On April 27 2013 01:18 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 01:10 Solaris.playgu wrote:
Another question, are the visual aides up to date? Because they don't seem to agree with the spreadsheet right now. What should I trust as being "correct", the ingame keybinds, the spreadsheet or the visual aid? And why is there no download for the ones using mousebuttons? TheCore team decided to stop distinguishing between mouse and non-mouse versions of TheCore. The visual aides are not up to date. I'm not sure about trusting the spreadsheet or the ingame keybinds, I believe the goal is that they should match.
Yes they should match, but since I'm on a nordic keyboard (and nordic version of thecore) there is no accurate spreadsheet for me to access =(
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On April 27 2013 01:24 Solaris.playgu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 01:18 JDub wrote:On April 27 2013 01:10 Solaris.playgu wrote:
Another question, are the visual aides up to date? Because they don't seem to agree with the spreadsheet right now. What should I trust as being "correct", the ingame keybinds, the spreadsheet or the visual aid? And why is there no download for the ones using mousebuttons? TheCore team decided to stop distinguishing between mouse and non-mouse versions of TheCore. The visual aides are not up to date. I'm not sure about trusting the spreadsheet or the ingame keybinds, I believe the goal is that they should match. Yes they should match, but since I'm on a nordic keyboard (and nordic version of thecore) there is no accurate spreadsheet for me to access =(
Ah yeah... we need to come up with some sort of spreadsheet generation to go along with the hotkey generation or something... at some point I can up-date the visual aides as well. The Photoshop file for the visual aides is on the GitHub if anyone else wants to volunteer for that!
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I guess trusting the ingame binds is the way to go then? In that case the question is, what do I rebind to mousebuttons?
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On April 27 2013 01:31 Solaris.playgu wrote:
I guess trusting the ingame binds is the way to go then? In that case the question is, what do I rebind to mousebuttons?
Yeah, I would trust the ingame binds, unless something seems very out of place, in which case it is probably a bug. I believe the latest version uses the mouse buttons for prev/next subgroup.
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Canada408 Posts
I guess the best way to judge is to download the qwerty version, and then translate. The files should all be up to date tho. Mouse forward should be previous subgroup and mouse back should be next subgroup.
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Alright, I admit, I hated cancel on 8 or f8 at first but once I got used to it... It became quite okay. One I learned from this is that you can right click and it's effectively the same thing as cancel. Ninja seemed to want me to elaborate a little bit on ].... There's 2 things about this... If your hands are resting on jkl ... ] is closer to your hand then = also on most keyboards the key is actually larger as well. I have to move my hand to hit = I don't for ]. There's something more important though I think going on here.... That is that it is that it's easy to press ] followed by o but much harder to do this by pressing = followed by o because o is beneath =. Meaning that i have to use the same finger to hit 2 keys this is slow! This is my logic as to why = is a bad key for a command group. Let me elaborate on this a little bit more..... You could click ] with your ring finger followed by an action key like o for fungal with your index finger without moving your hand.... I can't do this with = and o.
Jak I think came up with f8 for cancel originally and it wasn't popular but he had a good reason for this. You can reach f8 with
Your middle finger without really moving your hand far at all from the homekeys. There's one other thing.... If = is faster according to the data doc, why did you have ] as a hotkey for so long? The original data was based off the data document no? At least you claimed it was previously before 0.7 came into existence.
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I see, that solves that then. In that case my only problem is that it's a bit difficult to figure out the recommended usages of control groups and cameras since the spreadsheet is for another size and keyboard than the version I am using lol. Thanks a lot for the fast response anyway!
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One other thing that I've learned recently from Rekatan an x gm zerg player..... Is that camera keys don't make you much faster, it's actually often faster to use the mouse with scroll speed at 100% then to use camera keys or hotkeys for injects. Especially with macro hatches you generally want to select the queen individually in this case select the queen and shift click o on both macro hatcheries other wise you will end up with wondering queens. It's very important to specify which queen does the actual inject. That doesn't mean that all queens on 1 hotkey is bad! From this and because ,;l are resting right on the home keys doesn't it make more sense to use these keys for your army? This why I use -09 just to hotkey hatcheries not ';l to hatcheries. Idra and rekatan have basically said that it's faster to use the mouse or minimap injects then camera keys when you have several hatcheries and I think this is accepted as fact among the top sc2 players. Furthermore.... [] are close to lk; so it makes sense to me to use these keys for your army..... All of this and my other posts should explain the reasons why = is a bad choice for a command group key. Okay there you have.... All of reasons and rational for my previous statements. It's a lot more then just.... I don't personally like the way this feels. Best everyone!
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@fury
jkl are not the home keys. JIOP are. Also you wouldn't ever hit ] with your ring finger. Can you edit your post so that there aren't so many errors, I don't understand what you mean. The key scores are made to be as close to the average hand as possible as far as ergonomics and speed are concerned. Everyone has different hands and will feel things out differently. Feel free to create your own key ranking and rebind.
Concerning Ctrl as next subgroup:
I haven't tested this yet, but I would guess that when jumping to free cams, ctrl+clicking and adding to CGs, the next subgroup would activate. I see this causing problems. If we make this move, we have to test extensively to make sure there is no possible way this will screw the player up. If everyone could give a thorough test to this idea and report back with their experience it would help a lot.
Concerning Warp-In and other banished keys:
I'll try to sum up why warp-in is inefficient here, but I'll be making a more complete explanation in a video later on. Basically, we are limited to 10 Control groups, and to use them as efficiently as possible we decided that 2 dedicated to macro was the ideal balance. 1 Macro CG would be too much tabbing, while 3 or more really limited what we could do with our army CGs. So 1 CG is for your Nex/CC/Hatch and the other for your unit production or injecting queens. We are also limited in the number of keys that are close to the home keys. The less keys we can use, the tighter and faster the whole layout will be overall. This is why we suggest using a CG for warpgates and not the warp-in key. TBH I have no idea why it was decided that there would be a warp-in key for protoss and no similar key for other races, like a larva key or something. This is also why we don't include rally keys, select builder, jump to last alert, and a bunch of other keys that I'm likely forgetting right now. They are unnecessary and make the rest of the layout less efficient.
Hope that helps! Really looking forward to testing out Ctrl as next subgroup.
EDIT:
@Fury's 2nd post
I don't think an appeal to authority is strong evidence here. I strongly disagree that it is better to scroll on 100% than use camera keys.
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On April 27 2013 00:28 Ninjury_J wrote:
I would just like to say, please be careful when talking about how difficult keys are to press. Saying that a certain key is "easier" or "harder" to press is very subjective (which means its your opinion).
This absolutely does not mean your opinion is not valid. On the contrary, everyone on this thread has helped make TheCore that much better. All I'm saying is to be careful with terms. For example, "I find it hard press X because my finger curls too much" or "I find it hard to find = without looking" are both better than "I find Y hard". This is because it allows readers to know exactly what the problem is. For example, the curl with X is inevitable, while the hard to findness of = just takes practice.
Ninjury, good point! A lot of these variations are subjective and based on how comfortable our hands feel, etc. Maybe if we get a 'tips and tricks' page up a section could be dedicated to 'popular variations' where people on their own could set different keys that may be more comfortable or whatever based on other players who like that setup.
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@JaKaTaK
Thank you for your explanation.
I have a further question. Hopefully, somebody bothers to explain it to me.
On the Terran lefty layout, attacking is on 'G' and patrolling on 'T'.
As your right hand rests on the qwer buttons, T is better accessible than G.
Why is an action that is frequently used and way more important than patrolling banned on a rather inconvenient position?
There are similar examples of a rather unintuitive layout for buttons. (Prove me wrong! I want to understand the concept behind TheCore.)
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JakaTak, I see I was incorrectly, using j l;' as my home keys more or less, so now this is starting to make sense. THANK you for clearing that up for me and probably a few other people. I'm sure you state that JIOP are the HOMEKEYS several times, so I understand if that irritates you and thank you very much for pointing that out again lolz.
I don't know what I was thinking..... about = and o, I wasn't in front of a keyboard when I wrote that I'll remove it immediately. I think I was moving my whole hand position to hit = and then couldn't hit O afterwards.
I can source Rekatan talking about how he feels camera keys arn't that helpfull and that he personally uses mouse scrolling, I can dig up quotes on Idra stating that mini-map injects \
and backspace are the way to go as well. But I don't think it's relevant as camera keys are reasonable, I mean I think anyways.
Other then that, I don't think I made any errors in my post, I can source Rekatan talking about how he feels camera keys arn't that helpfull and that he personally uses mouse scrolling, I can dig up quotes on Idra stating that mini-map injects \
and backspace are the way to go as well. But I don't think it's relevant as camera keys are reasonable, I mean I think anyways.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8569598482
"I just have never really felt that camera keys will improve my play in any tangible way compared to the time investment required to commit them to muscle memory. More often than not I can double tab a control group key to achieve the same effect anyways. Vice versa, for students, there are significantly more important things for them to learn until they have reached at least diamond. If I have to choose between telling them about location hotkeys, and teaching them the basics of macro, which will benefit them more you know? "- Rekatan
In the VOD where he is coaching he describes that he typically scrolls with his mouse rather then use camera keys, and I think a mix is just fine, as these methods are obvioulsy efficient.
I can inject faster with the mini-map or scrolling then I can using camera keys, but this is mostly because I need to select my queen in many different instances. It probably is situational, I do use both still.
I don't believe I've made an false claim to any authority other then maybe you with f8 or 8 for cancel, but I assumed you came up with that in the first place, as I never did. If I'm incorrect about something then I apologize and I would edit it, if I knew it were incorrect.
I can source Idra describing why he thinks backspace + mini map injects are the best way to inject, but I think there is no value there, I have never seen him talk about camera hotkeys, and who cares if he did? (No disrespect to anyone)
I suspect when you get right down to it, there are times, when camera keys are the best, and times where scrolling makes sense. (Like between your first and natural for example... but not everyone perhaps has the same level of control that I have)
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I think my next question is important though, why use JIOP rather then have your hands resting right on top of the keys you use for your army?
I'm sure you put thought into this, and your probably correct, but, my thinking at least up to this point in time has been that it makes sense to have your hands resting over the hotkeys you would be using for your primary army....
I think I would want the fastest reaction time devoted to those keys as everything else I would think could be delayed without hurting me in the long run?
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On April 27 2013 03:22 ProbeEtPylon wrote:
@JaKaTaK
Thank you for your explanation.
I have a further question. Hopefully, somebody bothers to explain it to me.
On the Terran lefty layout, attacking is on 'G' and patrolling on 'T'.
As your right hand rests on the qwer buttons, T is better accessible than G.
Why is an action that is frequently used and way more important than patrolling banned on a rather inconvenient position?
There are similar examples of a rather unintuitive layout for buttons. (Prove me wrong! I want to understand the concept behind TheCore.)
For the left-handed layouts, W-E-R-G are the home keys.
@fury
One important thing I think you are missing is that camera keys with TheCore are designed to be fast. The standard layout camera locations (F1-F4) are far away, and likely won't be a speed increase compared to scrolling at 100%. I don't see how scrolling could possibly be faster than camera keys in TheCore.
As for resting on your macro CGs instead of your army CGs, I believe this is b/c you have to use your macro CGs more (you should be constantly tapping them the entire game). Obviously your main army CGs are also very important, and need to allow quick combos with attack-move, hold position, and stop, but I believe TheCore has made the right choice to put macro CGs on the homerow with army keys within very easy reach, instead of the other way around.
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EPT
