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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 197

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ACR_Daren
Profile Joined September 2011
6 Posts
April 22 2013 00:03 GMT
#3921
No problem! I'll look over everything and see what could be made simpler later today after I've practiced for a bit, but really, everything will go smoother for you guys once you get those VLookups running smoothly. That tidbit is probably all I can contribute, I have no idea how to better manage that much convoluted information, haha!
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
April 22 2013 00:11 GMT
#3922
On April 22 2013 07:07 Ninjury_J wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Intelligentsia.... I got a chuckle out of that. Please don't mistake me for somehow being a guru at this, I am just passionate about it and try to try my best

Prelim: it is important to realize that anyone coming off of standard or grid likely has not had the use of all control groups. Ours are some of the best keys possible to hit, so we have access to all of them, and I think it is worth abusing.

Suggested control groups are hard. On one hand, we want to have the most used control groups on the most functional keys in conjunction with likely combinations of other cgs and abilities. In this paradigm, we want control groups to be rigid, so that you can associate a button with a unit/ combination of units. On the other hand, zerg has lots of control groupable units that all have very different functions. It also has the ability to use and have any combination of units at some point in a given long enough game. This means that we want flexible control groups which are game and situation dependent.

After watching replays of gms (not really watching... we were using ggtracker) to see what units are alive at the same time as other units, we tried to arrange the cgs following three principles. This is the "rigid version", (but just a suggestion):

1) ability units should be on the index finger whenever possible to allow for access to all abilities quickly.
2) highly synergistic combinations should be together or easily comboed.
3) priority for same fingered keys were determined by tech > resource value.

I'll outline what we did and why for zerg. The general logic applies to all the races, but if you would like to understand the t and p specifics, you should ask Jak. Also, bear in mind that this is my interpretation, and I could be very wrong. I will go in order of unit, and then say a word about structures.

P for hatches and shift P for queens are hopefully best explained by being awesome.

; for lings/ ultra. ; is the next best control group, lings are used more frequently then any other unit, and are used in every game, almost.

L for roaches/hydra. Great to have next to lings, since roaches and hydras make up the "army" units, most of the time. Roached have no abilities on the middle finger. Hydras have clear synergy with roaches. Same abilities, except no burrow move.

0 for banes. easy to combine with lings. Its middle finger ability is not time sensitive, and it is on a different row than the ling cg, so one will not press the wrong one by mistake.

9 for mutas. A no-ability unit that requires as most efficiency/speed as possible. Allows for easy combo with lings and banes. (Ideally we would have the three units be on three fingers. I am toying with the idea of 8 or k as a control group but i don't think it is worth it.)

- for Infestors. Best index key after ;

[ for vipers. Best index key after -. Allows evos on it as well which i will get to later.

' for corruptors and overseers. Not sure if one or either deserves their own cg, but they fly, have odd but useful abilities, and are necessary in many late games to deal with air and invis. I also dont know what else they would group well with otherwise.

= for Swarm hosts. Swarm hosts have four abilities, so need to be on index.

0 for broods. "But Ninjury, banes are on 0. You done goofed...". I know. We are by now running out of cgs, and through the ggtracker adventure, it seems like this is the best concession. If anyone had any other ideas for banes or hosts, I would love to hear em.

And ; for ultras: by late game, ultra might as well go with lings. Since lings are faster, after the cg is sent you can ctrl click the ultras or lings and manipulate manually. Again, running out of "rigid room".

A note on queens: Queens have 3 abilities which give them completely different functions. "inject queens" are special and get their own super modified control group. Lucky ladies. "creep queens" use "creep option 7", and therefore do not get control groups, until they become... "Battle queens!" Battle queens get put with broods because they are slow... maybe with lots of creep they should go into rangeland with hydras and roaches on L... not sure on this one.

Buildings go with "their" units to check upgrades in battle conveniently. This also reduces the use of next and previous subgroup on a ten-selection long upgrade group. It comes with 2 known downsides that I think are totally worth it. 1) With less than x units where x is between 1 and 4 depending on the unit, center on selection and double tap will return to the building. Sometimes. Annoying, but just use the mini map in these situations, imo. 2) If you try to a move without looking at the cg, and don't have any units, you may get an upgrade by accident. This is not a real problem, since if you did not have a building on the cg and tried to select and empty cg, you would still do something you may not want to (since you will have something selected before hand). If this second point doesn't make sense to you, it is likely because I am not explaining it well. Let me know and I will try again.

Evos go on [ because it is a good key, has three "abilities", and does not get occupied until hive tech. They are also the best building to mass for vipers, as I understand it.

I hope this helps. As you can see, it is quite tentative and very intuitive. The science behind it is mediocre at best, imo. Again, this is all my interpretation. While the facts about the layout are (I think) correct, my reasoning may be faulty. Jak made the final calls, so he may have some different reasoning than I do.

Please let me know if there are any questions you have, and definitely shout out any improvements we can make... I'm confident this is nowhere near perfect yet.



Thanks very much for the extensive breakdown, interesting stuff!

Couple thoughts that spring to mind:

-I'm not totally sold on the idea of having ling/bane on two different control groups ; and 0 that are on the same finger and a row apart. For ZvZ especially in ling/bane wars you have to dance between your ling/bane groups very quickly and I feel like making the jump over the home keys might actually be too slow.. or at least it feels super clumsy to be me right now anyway. This also doesn't seem super optimal for ling/bane/muta where you want as smooth of a 1a2a3a (so to speak) as possible too.

-By assigning all the available CGs to specific units do you think that we're maybe missing out on a dedicated "harass/base defense" group? I mean I guess you won't be using every possible unit type in any given game so there are going to be CGs sitting empty that you could use.. but then you miss out on the benefits of muscle memory/rigidity for this group which you might want to switch back and forth between a lot. Hmmm maybe there's some units that typically end up only being used in one massive army (I mean I'm guessing probably broodlords/attack queens here) that we could use as dedicated for this. The idea being that when you reach that kinda army if you want any presence away from the main ball you can probably use your ling/roach CGs anyway. - Oooooh, just remembered broods are on the same group as banes currently so this doesn't make much sense, maybe the corruptor group?.. Hmmmm.

-With regard to the tech buildings being on the respective CGs, I kinda still like the idea of them being on the hatchery/queen inject group simply because those are groups that are being constantly tapped all game which (in theory at least) should make it easier to keep an eye on their progress without having to add in any extra key presses to your macro cycle. I mean I guess you'll be selecting your army too obviously but in some situations your army can sit a bit passively and not be touched for a minute whereas your injects/production will always be going.

There might also be an issue when a control group has a massable unit on it as when you have more than 24 they can take up the entire wireframe and push the tech building off the front page. This means A) you have to press an extra key (next/previous subgroup) to tap and check and B) that checking has to be something you specifically remember to do.. whereas when it's on the first page it just pops up for you.

I can see how it obviously gets unwieldy with 8 or so tech buildings added to your hatch group though.. hmmmm. I think I may go for a bit of a mix and keep the multiple upgrade buildings (spire/evos) on the hatch group .. then everything else I'll split around as suggested.

I'm sure there was something else I wanted to say.. but I have forgotten, I'll let you know if it comes back to me :D
I am terrible at this game!
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-22 00:19:00
April 22 2013 00:12 GMT
#3923
@Spaceboy,

Thanks for the feedback.

1) 0 is hit with the middle finger. ; is hit with index.

2) I agree about harrass... but I am not sure what to do about it :p

3) My thinking is that since you know all the control groups (or most) have buildings, one will learn to make it automatic relatively quickly.

4) Things cant be on the hatch group because every building has more priority than lairs and hive but less than hatches. This is super silly, but make making units hard if you have no hatch, but have a lair or hive.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-22 00:42:29
April 22 2013 00:41 GMT
#3924
On April 22 2013 07:46 JaKaTaK wrote:
In any case, this is what Ninjury and I cooked up after a few hours of work. I'm really interested in what the rest of you zergy folk think about this.


I definitely like the suggested uses of things (in particular the way ; 0 l 9 and - are layed out), but I feel like the suggestions should be a little more flexible, because you're not going to be making those sorts of things every game.

For example- I'm putting scouts on ' and all overlords on [, so that I can poop creep later on. If I ever make vipers, I remove the ovies from the control group. I also am putting my pool on [ because of the double tap centering issue, as I often want to center on a few lings early on in the game.

Since they are just suggestions, it's not a big deal- I know I can use = for whatever I want if I'm not making swarm hosts, but it might be beneficial to spell this out for newcomers who are checking out the core and might not understand that.
ACR_Daren
Profile Joined September 2011
6 Posts
April 22 2013 00:41 GMT
#3925
Hey, I've got a question. I'm curious where you're supposed to hotkey injecting queens in ZRM 1.0. In 0.6.3 it was on J, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore, and the Google Doc doesn't actually say where to set the queens, just how to recall them. If I assume that the CGs are now outlined from left to right in the general order that you would get them (Hatches on 1, Queens on 2, Lings on 3, etc) then the hotkey file I downloaded wants me to put my queens on F or U (QWERTY/DVORAK, both are wrong), which is way off in the middle of nowhere. I could throw it on a closer key, but I figure I should ask the experts!
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
April 22 2013 00:42 GMT
#3926
On April 22 2013 09:41 ACR_Daren wrote:
Hey, I've got a question. I'm curious where you're supposed to hotkey injecting queens in ZRM 1.0. In 0.6.3 it was on J, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore, and the Google Doc doesn't actually say where to set the queens, just how to recall them. If I assume that the CGs are now outlined from left to right in the general order that you would get them (Hatches on 1, Queens on 2, Lings on 3, etc) then the hotkey file I downloaded wants me to put my queens on F or U (QWERTY/DVORAK, both are wrong), which is way off in the middle of nowhere. I could throw it on a closer key, but I figure I should ask the experts!


It should go on K. It being on F is an error.
Jmanthedragonguy
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada1202 Posts
April 22 2013 04:09 GMT
#3927
This has gotta be the hardest thing evar xDD
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 22 2013 04:13 GMT
#3928
I THINK I HAVE DONE IT!

For real people, for real... I think that we all can have full funtionality for observing games and manipulating replays. Please grab the new alpha build and let me know if you find any bugs!
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 22 2013 04:35 GMT
#3929
@Jak

ZRM: 'Menu' should be F5 according to the doc. It is currently on F9.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Kunamatata
Profile Joined March 2011
France6 Posts
April 22 2013 08:49 GMT
#3930
Hi guys,
I'm a bit lost i was curious about this post. I have my mouse in my right hand and my left hand on the keyboard on the left side of the keyboard.
I don't really understand this new layout seems strange to me. I didn't install it yet, just looked at the whole post.
What layout do i need to get, i am a Terran Master player and right hand on mouse left on keyboard.

If it is the one with the left hand on keyboard on the right side of the keyboard, it feels so strange to me is it really good to change ? Or will i keep my left hand on the left side of the keyboard azerty (pinkie ring, middle, index, index, index)

Thanks in advance,

P.S: I love trying new stuff but this seems really strange at first
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
April 22 2013 08:59 GMT
#3931
On April 22 2013 17:49 Kunamatata wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a bit lost i was curious about this post. I have my mouse in my right hand and my left hand on the keyboard on the left side of the keyboard.
I don't really understand this new layout seems strange to me. I didn't install it yet, just looked at the whole post.
What layout do i need to get, i am a Terran Master player and right hand on mouse left on keyboard.

If it is the one with the left hand on keyboard on the right side of the keyboard, it feels so strange to me is it really good to change ? Or will i keep my left hand on the left side of the keyboard azerty (pinkie ring, middle, index, index, index)

Thanks in advance,

P.S: I love trying new stuff but this seems really strange at first


just watch the videos in the first post
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
slowbacontron
Profile Joined October 2012
United States7722 Posts
April 22 2013 09:01 GMT
#3932
On April 22 2013 17:49 Kunamatata wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a bit lost i was curious about this post. I have my mouse in my right hand and my left hand on the keyboard on the left side of the keyboard.
I don't really understand this new layout seems strange to me. I didn't install it yet, just looked at the whole post.
What layout do i need to get, i am a Terran Master player and right hand on mouse left on keyboard.

If it is the one with the left hand on keyboard on the right side of the keyboard, it feels so strange to me is it really good to change ? Or will i keep my left hand on the left side of the keyboard azerty (pinkie ring, middle, index, index, index)

Thanks in advance,

P.S: I love trying new stuff but this seems really strange at first

The left hand is on the right side so that your thumb can press the ever important ctrl and shift as easily as possible
jjakji fan
Kunamatata
Profile Joined March 2011
France6 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-22 09:22:38
April 22 2013 09:08 GMT
#3933
On April 22 2013 18:01 slowbacontron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2013 17:49 Kunamatata wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a bit lost i was curious about this post. I have my mouse in my right hand and my left hand on the keyboard on the left side of the keyboard.
I don't really understand this new layout seems strange to me. I didn't install it yet, just looked at the whole post.
What layout do i need to get, i am a Terran Master player and right hand on mouse left on keyboard.

If it is the one with the left hand on keyboard on the right side of the keyboard, it feels so strange to me is it really good to change ? Or will i keep my left hand on the left side of the keyboard azerty (pinkie ring, middle, index, index, index)

Thanks in advance,

P.S: I love trying new stuff but this seems really strange at first

The left hand is on the right side so that your thumb can press the ever important ctrl and shift as easily as possible


First off,
Thanks for your answer

However that implies to learn something completly new and different, since i started at the beginning of WoL i have learned to play this game using the left side of my keyboard. I mean my pinkie isn't that quick and apparently is it used alot in this layout for a right handed player.

Do you have any advice or such ? Is it really worth learning ? I'm a bit lost

Thanks in advance
Orgganon
Profile Joined April 2013
Portugal28 Posts
April 22 2013 11:01 GMT
#3934
@Kunamatata

yes, it is worth the try at least (meaning a couple of weeks). be mindfull that u'll "hate" it at your first try and love it when u understand it.
my advice, take it as if it was a new game and just go for it in steps, simulate a in-game situation and repeat it (like selecting all CC and then making scvs. select anything else then repeat)
once u got that memorized do that then select production and queue marines... repeat that till you memorize it...
i've done that for zerg with hatches and injects for instance, then injects and creep... and so on.
Strength lies in the Hand, not in the Instrument - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organon
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
April 22 2013 13:16 GMT
#3935
On April 22 2013 09:12 Ninjury_J wrote:
@Spaceboy,

Thanks for the feedback.

1) 0 is hit with the middle finger. ; is hit with index.

2) I agree about harrass... but I am not sure what to do about it :p

3) My thinking is that since you know all the control groups (or most) have buildings, one will learn to make it automatic relatively quickly.

4) Things cant be on the hatch group because every building has more priority than lairs and hive but less than hatches. This is super silly, but make making units hard if you have no hatch, but have a lair or hive.


1) Really?! Wow I've been doing it wrong all this time.. it just feels natural that when I uncurl my fingers the index goes up to the 0 (or in my case the - as I use ZRS but you get the idea).. I guess I'll have to give it a go and see if I can get used to it! If I can get comfortable it totally does fix any issues I mentioned with regard to this though so that's great :D

4) That's interesting (and makes sense given how my buildings seem to arrange themselves on the control group).. buuuut I still think it's not going to stop me doing this. Obviously this could be super annoying if the situation ever arises (finding yourself with only your lair/hive left).. but it's a very low probability game state anyway, let alone in a situation that you can actually win from and wouldn't just quit immediately. I mean I guess it can come up in the super crazy late game or base races (specifically against an immortal/sentry all in where you spine the ramp to your main and counter).. but in either of those situations it's very unlikely I'd be looking to get any more upgrades anyway, so knowing this issue exists I'm fine with just regrouping only my lair/hive for production if this ever comes up. Thanks for letting me know though! Otherwise I could potentially have been extremely confused :D

I am terrible at this game!
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-22 14:00:31
April 22 2013 13:59 GMT
#3936
Hahaha yeah. Re: 0 on index. Because of how the keyboard is designed it may be that if you move your hand over one, - is better hit with the index in ZRS. If you find it uncomfortable, play around with the tilt until you find a good spot. It is significantly
important IMO to have at least 3 middle finger control groups (Mutas, banes or broods, army).
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
April 22 2013 14:20 GMT
#3937
@Spaceboy
I use 0 with my index finger as well. This is mainly b/c I use my CGs as follows:

9 - lings
0 - blings
minus - mutas

So I constantly tap between lings/blings all the time, so I use middle finger for 9 and index for 0. This is just how I used to play with CGs 1 and 2 in standard, so maybe it's just an old habit manifesting itself in my usage of TheCore...
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 22 2013 14:31 GMT
#3938
@JDub

I think being able to go back and forth between lings and banes with 2 different fingers is really strong. I think that zerg players should do this in some way.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 22 2013 14:52 GMT
#3939
With lings on ; and banes on 9 or 0 one can go back and forth, no?
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Becuula
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany65 Posts
April 22 2013 15:06 GMT
#3940
The Latest Alpha German PRM 1.0 Layout seems to be broken. It shows lots of unbinded keys ingame and some keys in the document seems to be strange for a RM layout (usage of w,e,r...)
It is difficulties which give birth to miracles.
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