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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 196

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
April 20 2013 17:37 GMT
#3901
Make sure to press the "Raw" link to download just the text file. Chances are you downloaded some HTML from the web page in there
apocriva
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada66 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-20 18:46:11
April 20 2013 18:03 GMT
#3902
Ahhh I'm a doofus! It was totally because I wasn't downloading the raw file, thanks.

Does Alpha ZRM 1.0 have the keys set up for that creep spread method...?

Edit: I see that it does!

Also, looking at the bindings within SC2, "Add to control group 2" (injecting queen group) is Ctrl-F. Reckon this should be Ctrl-K, according to the archive?
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 20 2013 18:59 GMT
#3903
Yes
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-20 19:56:48
April 20 2013 19:55 GMT
#3904
By the way, the "add to inject control group" being wrong is a recurring problem. Something's wrong with the way the different core layouts are built. It was a problem for me when I first tried out the alpha, just like it's a problem for these other guys. It seems it never gets converted from the left-handed layout.

You might want to look for a bug Jdub.
ProbeEtPylon
Profile Joined October 2010
168 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-20 20:02:54
April 20 2013 19:57 GMT
#3905
Edit: Nevermind, got it.
beer
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
April 20 2013 22:42 GMT
#3906
Cheering for Sandbox in the WCS NA qualifiers, TheCore represent yo!!! :D I hope he gets on stream at some point!
I am terrible at this game!
sanddbox_sc2
Profile Joined October 2011
United States173 Posts
April 21 2013 04:35 GMT
#3907
On April 21 2013 07:42 Spaceboy wrote:
Cheering for Sandbox in the WCS NA qualifiers, TheCore represent yo!!! :D I hope he gets on stream at some point!


Don't get too excited, I haven't played in like three weeks
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
April 21 2013 13:16 GMT
#3908
On April 21 2013 13:35 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2013 07:42 Spaceboy wrote:
Cheering for Sandbox in the WCS NA qualifiers, TheCore represent yo!!! :D I hope he gets on stream at some point!


Don't get too excited, I haven't played in like three weeks


I believe!!! You only have to make your way through a possible run of Aria>QXC>Fitzy>Demuslim>Jaedong>Revival... and you're in Premier.... yikes, good luck :D
I am terrible at this game!
Jmanthedragonguy
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada1202 Posts
April 21 2013 20:34 GMT
#3909
This is really hard x_x
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
April 21 2013 21:14 GMT
#3910
On a more directly Core-related note could Ninjury or one of the other assorted intelligentsia give a rundown of why the current recommended control groups are what they are for zerg.. When I started off with TheCore back in December I kinda loosely adopted the then current recommendations, but unless I'm just totally misremembering they appear to have all switched around a fair bit! I'm sure a tonne of thought has gone into these (as with everything here) but given the difficulty involved in switching this kinda stuff around in one's mind I'm gonna need some details to convince me it's worth it :D
I am terrible at this game!
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-21 23:50:10
April 21 2013 22:07 GMT
#3911
Intelligentsia.... I got a chuckle out of that. Please don't mistake me for somehow being a guru at this, I am just passionate about it and try to try my best

Prelim: it is important to realize that anyone coming off of standard or grid likely has not had the use of all control groups. Ours are some of the best keys possible to hit, so we have access to all of them, and I think it is worth abusing.

Suggested control groups are hard. On one hand, we want to have the most used control groups on the most functional keys in conjunction with likely combinations of other cgs and abilities. In this paradigm, we want control groups to be rigid, so that you can associate a button with a unit/ combination of units. On the other hand, zerg has lots of control groupable units that all have very different functions. It also has the ability to use and have any combination of units at some point in a given long enough game. This means that we want flexible control groups which are game and situation dependent.

After watching replays of gms (not really watching... we were using ggtracker) to see what units are alive at the same time as other units, we tried to arrange the cgs following three principles. This is the "rigid version", (but just a suggestion):

1) ability units should be on the index finger whenever possible to allow for access to all abilities quickly.
2) highly synergistic combinations should be together or easily comboed.
3) priority for same fingered keys were determined by tech > resource value.

I'll outline what we did and why for zerg. The general logic applies to all the races, but if you would like to understand the t and p specifics, you should ask Jak. Also, bear in mind that this is my interpretation, and I could be very wrong. I will go in order of unit, and then say a word about structures.

P for hatches and shift P for queens are hopefully best explained by being awesome.

; for lings/ ultra. ; is the next best control group, lings are used more frequently then any other unit, and are used in every game, almost.

L for roaches/hydra. Great to have next to lings, since roaches and hydras make up the "army" units, most of the time. Roached have no abilities on the middle finger. Hydras have clear synergy with roaches. Same abilities, except no burrow move.

0 for banes. easy to combine with lings. Its middle finger ability is not time sensitive, and it is on a different row than the ling cg, so one will not press the wrong one by mistake.

9 for mutas. A no-ability unit that requires as most efficiency/speed as possible. Allows for easy combo with lings and banes. (Ideally we would have the three units be on three fingers. I am toying with the idea of 8 or k as a control group but i don't think it is worth it.)

- for Infestors. Best index key after ;

[ for vipers. Best index key after -. Allows evos on it as well which i will get to later.

' for corruptors and overseers. Not sure if one or either deserves their own cg, but they fly, have odd but useful abilities, and are necessary in many late games to deal with air and invis. I also dont know what else they would group well with otherwise.

= for Swarm hosts. Swarm hosts have four abilities, so need to be on index.

0 for broods. "But Ninjury, banes are on 0. You done goofed...". I know. We are by now running out of cgs, and through the ggtracker adventure, it seems like this is the best concession. If anyone had any other ideas for banes or hosts, I would love to hear em.

And ; for ultras: by late game, ultra might as well go with lings. Since lings are faster, after the cg is sent you can ctrl click the ultras or lings and manipulate manually. Again, running out of "rigid room".

A note on queens: Queens have 3 abilities which give them completely different functions. "inject queens" are special and get their own super modified control group. Lucky ladies. "creep queens" use "creep option 7", and therefore do not get control groups, until they become... "Battle queens!" Battle queens get put with broods cuz they are slow... maybe with lots of creep they should go into rangeland with hydras and roaches on L... not sure on this one.

Buildings go with "their" units to check upgrades in battle conveniently. This also reduces the use of next and previous subgroup on a ten-selection long upgrade group. It comes with 2 known downsides that I think are totally worth it. 1) With less than x units where x is between 1 and 4 depending on the unit, center on selection and double tap will return to the building. Sometimes. Annoying, but just use the mini map in these situations, imo. 2) If you try to a move without looking at the cg, and don't have any units, you may get an upgrade by accident. This is not a real problem, since if you did not have a building on the cg and tried to select and empty cg, you would still do something you may not want to (since you will have something selected before hand). If this second point doesn't make sense to you, it is cuz I am not explaining it well. Let me know and I will try again.

Evos go on [ cuz it is a good key, has three "abilities", and does not get occupied until hive tech. They are also the best building to mass for vipers, as I understand it.

I hope this helps. As you can see, it is quite tentative and very intuitive. The science behind it is mediocre at best, imo. Again, this is all my interpretation. While the facts about the layout are (I think) correct, my reasoning may be faulty. Jak made the final calls, so he may have some different reasoning than I do.

Please let me know if there are any questions you have, and definitely shout out any improvements we can make... I'm confident this is nowhere near perfect yet.

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 21 2013 22:46 GMT
#3912
Thanks Ninjury for typing that out so I didn't have to

In any case, this is what Ninjury and I cooked up after a few hours of work. I'm really interested in what the rest of you zergy folk think about this.

I am doing my best to update TheCore with all of the ideas we've agreed upon so far, but I'm falling behind. Should be able to get a good chunk done tomorrow. No promises about today.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Jmanthedragonguy
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada1202 Posts
April 21 2013 22:47 GMT
#3913
I just started this and i got a quick question. I am using ZRM, and when i press control+shift+O to try and make a control group it keeps trying to larva inject.. :/
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 21 2013 22:51 GMT
#3914
O is not a control group in ZRM. Make sure you are looking at the right part of the document
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
April 21 2013 22:58 GMT
#3915
On April 22 2013 07:47 Jmanthedragonguy wrote:
I just started this and i got a quick question. I am using ZRM, and when i press control+shift+O to try and make a control group it keeps trying to larva inject.. :/


Why are you hitting ctrl+shift+O to make a control group? There isn't any control group made that way.

What happens when you press that button will depend on what units you have selected. If you have queens selected, it will inject, because inject is on O.
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 21 2013 23:02 GMT
#3916
Ah. It should be 0 as in zero
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 21 2013 23:05 GMT
#3917
I'm pretty sure that's an O. Typo perhaps? Talk to us Jman!
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
ACR_Daren
Profile Joined September 2011
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-21 23:32:33
April 21 2013 23:26 GMT
#3918
Hey guys! I noticed that the Alpha doc has tabs that are really outdated, and I thought I read somewhere that it would take too long to update them all. That's patently untrue! You're just not using spreadsheets to their full potential. I'd recommend that whoever is in charge of maintaining the Google Doc do some research on the VLookup formula. Essentially, you put the formula into a cell, and it'll follow the directions you lined out in the formula to pull whatever value is in whatever cell you specified. So for example, ZRM should be the same between tab Zerg 1.0, and tab Main Page, but it's not. However, you could tell the entire Main Page ZRM column to pull the corresponding values from the Zerg 1.0 ZRM column, and the two would be up to date. Any changes made to the Zerg 1.0 ZRM column would be automatically changed in the Main Page ZRM column. It might take a few minutes to really understand how to use the formula, but it'll save you more time than flipping back and forth between tabs and trying to do it manually!

In other news, I just started using TheCore on Friday night, and I'm loving it. Though so far I've been using v0.6.3 because I'm used to Betas being more up to date than Alphas. Normally I'm a mid-Diamond Zerg, and it was tough going at first, but because I use so many different keyboard layouts anyways by brain switched really fast and I was back to facing Diamonds again within maybe 8 hours of practice. I've got a lot more control over my hatcheries now, and my APM jumped from 200 to 300, though I still have a hard time with quite a few things, mostly producing enough units. It's fun though! I'm all about efficiency. I think I'll switch to 1.0 right now, I assume it's better than 0.6.3

Anyways, I love what you guys are doing, keep up the good work! :D

Edit: There are probably other formulas that could help you as well, I'm just new to the Doc and don't really know what issues there are. But generally if there's a problem you have, someone else in an office had it too 15 years ago, and the solution is just buried somewhere
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 21 2013 23:49 GMT
#3919
Thanks so much Daren! Definitely let us know of any other things we can make easier. (I'm a bit of a google doc noob).
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Jmanthedragonguy
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada1202 Posts
April 21 2013 23:57 GMT
#3920
Alright, so in the OP I followed this link "Beta Build Document" located near the bottom of the post. I assumed the column i was reccomended hotkeys for the adjacent structures/units, but upon further inspection I think I'm reading the chart wrong xD
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