[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 146

Smackzilla

United States539 Posts

March 20 2013 16:00 GMT

#2901

On March 20 2013 23:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
...

Next and Previous Subgroup are now on the side mouse buttons!!!

...

Sounds great. I was experimenting with this yesterday and it felt really good. I'm using a Logitech G500 which has 3 side buttons. Had forward on next sub, backward on previous sub, and I've always used the middle-side-button as drag scroll (pushing the wheel for drag scroll was killing my hand).

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

March 20 2013 16:01 GMT

#2902

TheCore 1.0 will be significantly different from 0.6.2 as far as particular keys go. I think it is worth it to learn the structure now and rewiring which keys do what when 1.0 comes out.

TheCore 1.0 will be released as soon as fucking possible. That's not attitude from me toward you, that's me really wanting to get 1.0 out. The issue is that I need my computer to update the videos and also to update the visuals. I'll probably release a 0.9.9 version that is exactly the same as 1.0 with the exception of the visuals/OP rewrite/videos so you can start playing on it as soon as possible. Until 0.9.9 is out, I'll basically be waking up, working on TheCore, eating occasionally, and then going to sleep. Thank you so much for your patience. If you really want to get into the thick of it, you can head over to TheCore Archive and try to make sense of the chaos that is me reorganizing everything for 1.0. I will not answer questions about this document, everything you see here is either old, or in the middle of a rework, but I know many of you are curious people so I'll let you in on the development

Next Subgroup and Previous subgroup will be on the forward and back parts of the mouse (side mouse buttons). If you use the mouse buttons for CGs, you will use Shift+M4 and Shift+M5. If you choose not to, you can rebind to M4 and M5 straight up.

Thanks again all, and please contact everyone you know using TheCore and ask them to answer the new poll, the sooner we get that poll to a reasonable sample size, the sooner we can make another major decision for TheCore.

Pelirrojo

United States98 Posts

March 20 2013 16:16 GMT

#2903

On March 20 2013 23:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
/ for righty and Z for lefty are now an ability key! This means that you don't have to reach as far on the ability side anymore

On March 21 2013 01:01 JaKaTaK wrote:
Next Subgroup and Previous subgroup will be on the forward and back parts of the mouse (side mouse buttons). If you use the mouse buttons for CGs, you will use Shift+M4 and Shift+M5. If you choose not to, you can rebind to M4 and M5 straight up.

What someone's mouse doesn't have side buttons? Did you come to the conclusion that it's more efficient to use side buttons and gear theCore only towards mice that have them?

Before I started with theCore I used to have shift and control bound to my mouse side buttons, and I always gloated about that because I thought I was so clever for doing it. But I got the no-mouse-buttons version of theCore and have found it to be faster to not use side buttons on the mouse. Since I use a fingertip grip, I basically hold the mouse with my thumb and pinky, and this makes using thumb buttons a little awkward.

Sorry if you already talked about this. I know there has been a bunch of discussion in the last few pages, but I couldn't discern 100% whether you want to force people to use mouse buttons or not? It seems to me that it would be a big improvement for someone who uses palm grip, but maybe not for fingertip/claw.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

March 20 2013 16:20 GMT

#2904

We have come to the conclusion that using the side mouse buttons is more efficient than not using them. What is best to use them for is still debatable so that is why we are using alternates for those who want to use the side mouse buttons for CGs. The one thing we have agreed on is that the mouse buttons should not be used for anything requiring mouse accuracy. That way, even if you have a fingertip grip, the movement of the mouse to the side will not affect your play.

JDub

United States976 Posts

March 20 2013 16:36 GMT

#2905

Jak these 1.0 changes seem like they may require some modifications to how the script works. Just let me know what you need it to do differently (e.g. not generate mouse/no-mouse layouts).

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

March 20 2013 16:49 GMT

#2906

@JDub

Yea, we're going to make a bunch of changes to the files. What I would like to do, is keep the current files in the github in a special folder for people who do not want to make this switch. Also, the maps will be different and which things they apply to will be different. I can make those changes if you don't have the time. Once I get everything figured out and ready to roll I'll send you a nice long email, or we can skype, up to you

Sickan

Sweden19 Posts

March 20 2013 17:40 GMT

#2907

Both really excited and anxious for 1.0! I want to ask questions about the new document, BUT I WONT.

KaibaCorp

Canada9 Posts

March 20 2013 17:52 GMT

#2908

It seems I can't vote in the poll as my friend who is over just voted (?). +1 vote to Small!

Keep up the awesome work!

JDub

United States976 Posts

March 20 2013 17:54 GMT

#2909

One question about using / as an ability key for right-handed layouts. Is this going to require some effort making sure that it is not an ability that you would ever want to shift-queue? Pressing shift and / with the thumb simultaneously seems like it could be quite awkward.

turboPasqual

Germany21 Posts

March 20 2013 18:03 GMT

#2910

On March 20 2013 23:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
/ for righty and Z for lefty are now an ability key! This means that you don't have to reach as far on the ability side anymore

Since you press / with the thumb it would be quite tricky to queue up commands on that ability key.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

March 20 2013 18:04 GMT

#2911

@JDub
Yes, we will only be assigning the / key to abilities that are not (or are almost never) shift-queued.

Rankith

United States78 Posts

March 20 2013 18:41 GMT

#2912

I currently use RRMM

Are the changes in 1.0 thus:
/ is no longer next sub group
M4 and M5 are now next/prev sub group.

What keyboard buttons will now be my M4 and M5 control group? Is it changing to the style of the RRM for that? If so that means my build commands are on different keys etc which is quite big.

Also, Im not sure I agree with M4 and M5 being next sub group. The one problem I occasionally hit with control groups on the mouse is that I cant really use them while microing intensively. I mitigated this by putting my bases and production on M4 and M5, but if next/prev sub group are on there I STILL won't be able to properly macro my production buildings while microing, let alone swap between my casters if I happen to have more then 1 in a group.

Zayas

1 Post

March 20 2013 18:46 GMT

#2913

Things that do not match hot-keys on spreadsheet (TRM) after downloading and installing in-game hot-keys(TRM) . 1st is spreadsheet Hot-key, 2nd is my in game hot-key.
Units
Attack object - "J", "H"
Stop - "H", "D"
Patrol - "N", "B"
SCV -
Return cargo - "I", "C"
Build Basic - " ' ", " - "
Build advanced - "=", "]"
Repair - "K" - "T"
Halt - "Y" - "F"
Build basic -
Supply depot - "J", "H"
Barracks - "I", "C"
Refinery - "K", "T"
Missile Turret - " ' ", " - "
Bunker - "H", "D"
Ebay - "U", "G"
Sensor tower - "N", "U"
Build Advanced -
Factory - "J", "H"
Starport - "I", "C"
Armory - "K", "T"
Fusion core - "H", "D"
Marine, Marauder, Medivac -
Use Stim-pack - "I", "C"
Unload - "K", "T"
Emergency thrusters - "U", "G"
Heal - "Y", "E"
Sorry for not posting more, was too much for my attention span.

JDub

United States976 Posts

March 20 2013 19:21 GMT

#2914

@Zayas
Looking at those mappings, it looks like you downloaded the US Dvorak version of TheCore, rather than the standard USQwerty version.

zendy

Germany13 Posts

March 20 2013 20:20 GMT

#2915

I appreciate all your work dedicated to this layout, but I have a major concern with the proposed mouse-focussed design:

I'm playing terran (TRM) at lower level (plat) and with the decision to shift forward/backward in a control group exclusively via mouse it's hardly possible for me to micro and manage my macro simultanelously.
It tried it when I first switched to TheCore and thought its a good idea to make more use of my lazy right thumb. It simply didn't work for me. Maybe its the position or the small keys of the razer naga mouse or a mental block - I can't coordinate clicking with my index/middel finger and my thumb in a coordinated way without large delays.
The result is, that I completely neglect my macro in the micro-intensive phases of the game.
Do other players have similar difficulties?

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

March 20 2013 20:30 GMT

#2916

I think that moving next/previous group to mouse buttons is a terrible idea. You mostly use those during heavy micro or during macro and mouse buttons are like 100 times slower to use than the keyboard, they also greatly hurt mouse accuracy during micro.

It of course won't affect me because I'd never use mouse buttons for anything and I'd just change them away but I don't think it's a good idea to have them as a default setting.

Proof: Spam mouse button 3 and 4 while clicking with the left and right mouse button randomly at 500 APM, then do the same thing at 500 APM but replace mouse buttons 3 and 4 with 2 random keyboard keys. After that left click repeatedly alternating between the 2 gas geysers in the main while pressing the mouse buttons as fast as possible. Record APM. After that left click alternating between the 2 gas geysers while spamming 2 random keys on the keyboard as fast as possible.

You'll see my point.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

March 20 2013 20:44 GMT

#2917

In what situation would you press another mouse button directly before or after next subgroup?

EDIT: In other news, I found a way to make terran production muuuuuuch better...

AND MY PSU CAME IN!!!!!!!!! HOPEFULLY THIS WORKS AND IT MEANS NO MORE SHITTY LAPTOP!!!!!!

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

March 20 2013 20:54 GMT

#2918

When microing units, isn't that the entire point? For example with storms or whatever. The only other use I can think of is terran macro but even there I have a much easier time coordinating key presses with 2 fingers of the same hand than 2 fingers of different hands. Also, if you're just quickly macroing in between micro a really fast mouse side button press might make your mouse cursor or hand position become suboptimal whereas with just keyboard you can accurately hold the mouse exactly where you want to click the moment you come back to your army control group.

Oh but I do use around 2200 DPI and incredibly low traction so I have no idea if it's easier to hold the mouse cursor position with a more forgiving setup. However if you press the mouse buttons with the thumb of the right hand it's incredibly slow regardless.

Smackzilla

United States539 Posts

March 20 2013 21:06 GMT

#2919

On March 21 2013 05:54 Shikyo wrote:
When microing units, isn't that the entire point? For example with storms or whatever. The only other use I can think of is terran macro but even there I have a much easier time coordinating key presses with 2 fingers of the same hand than 2 fingers of different hands. Also, if you're just quickly macroing in between micro a really fast mouse side button press might make your mouse cursor or hand position become suboptimal whereas with just keyboard you can accurately hold the mouse exactly where you want to click the moment you come back to your army control group.

Oh but I do use around 2200 DPI and incredibly low traction so I have no idea if it's easier to hold the mouse cursor position with a more forgiving setup. However if you press the mouse buttons with the thumb of the right hand it's incredibly slow regardless.

So in the case of building units, I think we can agree that M4 isnt at a disadvantage to /, right?

As for doing next sub group during unit micro, my first reaction is that you aren't using enough control groups. Personally, I'm not running into the need to use "next subgroup" to cast spells. For example, I can have MMM, tanks, vikings, and ravens on 4 different CGs and not use "next subgroup" for unit micro. And I still have a few control groups to spare.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

March 20 2013 21:08 GMT

#2920

Usually, people can do something faster when alternating fingers than using the same finger, and when alternating hands instead of using one hand. The point of the next and previous subgroup buttons for TheCore is for Macro. If you're using 10 CGs you shouldn't have to use this function for spellcasting. What is your race/CG setup?

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