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On March 21 2013 05:44 JaKaTaK wrote:
In what situation would you press another mouse button directly before or after next subgroup?
EDIT: In other news, I found a way to make terran production muuuuuuch better...
AND MY PSU CAME IN!!!!!!!!! HOPEFULLY THIS WORKS AND IT MEANS NO MORE SHITTY LAPTOP!!!!!!
Re: Terran production... No hint? 
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On March 21 2013 06:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
Usually, people can do something faster when alternating fingers than using the same finger, and when alternating hands instead of using one hand. The point of the next and previous subgroup buttons for TheCore is for Macro. If you're using 10 CGs you shouldn't have to use this function for spellcasting. What is your race/CG setup?
Its that it makes it hard to macro WHILE you micro.
Lets say for example I have all my production on 0. That means if Im microing an army around, and need to fire off a round of production I go right click (final micro movement for now), 0, j, j, j, M4, j, j, P (army) continue micro, during that ~half second to second clicking my M4 has interrupted the movement of my mouse to my next click location, and/or i've had to slightly readjust my mouse hand to hit M4 and will need to re-adjust again to continue smooth micro.
It's the same reason I swapped my production OFF of the M4 key.
Of course, thats all subjective as I'm more used to clicking / for next subgroup.
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On March 21 2013 06:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
Usually, people can do something faster when alternating fingers than using the same finger, and when alternating hands instead of using one hand. The point of the next and previous subgroup buttons for TheCore is for Macro. If you're using 10 CGs you shouldn't have to use this function for spellcasting. What is your race/CG setup?
I think it's unreasonable to assume that people will never need to use next subgroup when microing. For one, I think there are times when your CGs aren't configured perfectly. Maybe you have a marine/marauder in with your ghosts accidentally, and don't realize it until you need to cast EMP. Maybe you have voids and phoenix together, because you were used to doing that in WoL, and you find it easier to keep them on one CG since the VRs ability doesn't get used very often, so it's not hard to tab to it when you need to.
Even if you don't buy the above examples, there is one situation which is really the nail in the coffin: Zerg units. If you have some units in a CG burrowed, and other units unburrowed, and you want to unburrow the burrowed ones, you need to be able to tab to the burrowed ones and press unburrow. I believe the same applies to widow mines.
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Right, but of course your next action is a keyboard press, not a click.
The point is you never need to click accurately immediately after press next subgroup.
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I for one can fit in a key press in between 2 mouse clicks at my max mouse clicking speed so why does it matter if the order isn't right after one another? If you snap your fingers with your right hand as fast as you can, you can still snap with your left hand in between the snaps with the right hand. If you could do this with a mouse button nothing would be wrong, but the thumb without momentum is extremely slow(and I get well over 100 in domination with my thumb, with momentum though) and if you use momentum your mouse accuracy suffers greatly.
On March 21 2013 06:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
Usually, people can do something faster when alternating fingers than using the same finger, and when alternating hands instead of using one hand. The point of the next and previous subgroup buttons for TheCore is for Macro. If you're using 10 CGs you shouldn't have to use this function for spellcasting. What is your race/CG setup?
For alternating fingers this is true, for alternating hands ON KEYBOARD this is true, but not in the case of keyboard + mouse. Did you even perform those 2 tests? They should demonstrate my point.
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Maybe add the large format to the excel spreadsheet, unless i'm missing something? But really thanks for all the work you are doing you rule!
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On March 21 2013 08:12 Ninjury_J wrote:
Right, but of course your next action is a keyboard press, not a click.
The point is you never need to click accurately immediately after press next subgroup.
I think the point is that you need to be able to press it quickly while microing.
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On March 21 2013 06:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
Usually, people can do something faster when alternating fingers than using the same finger, and when alternating hands instead of using one hand. The point of the next and previous subgroup buttons for TheCore is for Macro. If you're using 10 CGs you shouldn't have to use this function for spellcasting. What is your race/CG setup?
It's not efficient to have one control group for each unit type; as such, tabbing for army is extremely common. Also, in the case of swarmhosts, you'll need to be able to tab when you have some burrowed and some unburrowed.
My hunch is that using the mouse button to tab through subgroups would be difficult to do while microing, or if it is doable the learning curve would just be very steep. I don't think it's a change I would personally make, although maybe it makes a bigger difference than I'm giving credit for.
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JDub, I think you are right. But "quickly" is relative. Though it has to be quick, there is always a buffer in-between. All of your examples require a keypress: EMP, VR, and Burrow. By design, the only thing next and previous subgroup is for is to easily toggle abilities. Abilities all require keyboard presses. One keyboard press is enough to ensure accuracy on your next click, or at least it has been for me.
Shikyo, I agree with you that your tests would certainly indicate the keyboard is faster, but only for actions comparable to those tests.
Your first test measures pure selection speed. But first, you never need to use both select next subgroup and previous subgroup. You will always choose one depending on how far away your desired building (or unit, but it should rarely be a unit) is from the default. Second, you never need to spam either of these buttons. They aren't "checkers", each time you use it, it ought to be followed by some in-game action. We aren't talking about macro on the mouse (personally I believe macro on mouse is a mistake for precisely the reasons you brought up.) A better test would be for one button. Unless holding a key down, it is faster for me to press my M5 button once or repeatedly (i use a Steelseries sensei) than to press / with my thumb if it is first resting on shift (i use a Das keyboard).
Your second test measures clicking accuracy (although geysers are way too large) while spamming 2 buttons. Again, you never need both buttons at once. Second, you should never be clicking and also pressing the side mouse buttons (as next/previous subgroup) even once, let alone repeatedly, let alone in any way that resembles spamming.
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On March 21 2013 12:37 Ninjury_J wrote:
JDub, I think you are right. But "quickly" is relative. Though it has to be quick, there is always a buffer in-between. All of your examples require a keypress: EMP, VR, and Burrow. By design, the only thing next and previous subgroup is for is to easily toggle abilities. Abilities all require keyboard presses. One keyboard press is enough to ensure accuracy on your next click, or at least it has been for me.
I guess I just have an aversion to using the mouse buttons because I really don't like the way my mouse feels when I have my thumb on the side mouse buttons. I don't like the idea of having to throw in a mouse side button press in the heat of the battle while microing stuff.
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Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you know that I have been using TheCore since its very first version. It took about a month for me to adjust and become comfortable with the setup. At that time, I was in platinum league 1v1 as zerg. I play a lot of team games with friends, and I find the RRM version pretty awesome, even though zerg is my main race in 1v1.
Over the past year, I have overcome my ladder anxiety and started playing 1v1 regularly. I am thrilled to say that I was promoted tonight to 1v1 masters league (in HotS) using TheCore: http://imgur.com/a/b7oXr
Thank you so much JaKaTaK for all of your hard work in developing this layout!! My play has benefited greatly from the added efficiency and layered hotkeys of TheCore. I hope you all may experience the same kind of joy from TheCore as I have!!
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You might need the previous group buttons as well. The example I had in mind is having 2 types of casters in the same hotkey, perhaps Vipers and Infestors or Templars and Sentries or something else. I of course don't hotkey like this and I rarely use the next / last type of units key anyway. Still, in this situation you can for example force field a few times, storm a few times, then force field again as the situation changes, storm again and so on.
If you never use the button then this of course doesn't matter, just like if you never use 10 unit hotkey groups it doesn't matter where you have the 10th one.
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After reading through the last couple of pages, I have to admit that I am quite disappointed that mouse buttons seem to become mandatory for the following versions of TheCore.
As for myself, before using TheCore I was using DarkGrid pretty much since it was released and I liked it a lot, however, the usage of side buttons was always something that I strongly disliked. For me, the entire point of hotkeys in a RTS game is to make the mouse a device which is entirely focused on unit control, and every little thing that the mouse has to do besides just that makes it less dedicated, which decreases its ability to micro to the maximum level.
I have been using TheCore since it was made publicly available, and I liked the changes that were made recently a lot, like changing the corresponding keys to something that will always be usable, instead to something that is metagame focused, which is what happened especially to the upgrades I believe. From my point of view, this change also is something that is not focused on efficiency, but rather on comfort, and this is really important to me: TheCore is already so powerful and absolutely efficient, that changes which increase comfort and possibly decrease efficiency by a smidge are absolutely fine, even though I actually cannot believe that the correlation between alternating fingers/hands is the same as keyboard and mouse. Maybe there are some people who have no problems using their side buttons, but well, what can I say, I am not one of them, I dislike using the side buttons ingame strongly.
Especially in the higher leagues micro becomes more and more important, and once you start using all the hotkeys for control groups like they are suggested, which for Protoss are fucking many, believe me, you will have enough trouble maneuvering your army around properly, and it will take quite some time to see the advantages of many hotkeys for an army. However, using then the mouse buttons for macro suddenly makes this whole part exponentially harder.
TL;DR: Please think again about making the mouse buttons mandatory, I would not like that. =)
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Agreed enter should be used for something important then chat ..... I put idle worker on it.... From f8. I use . for select all workers. ...... Why would that key be on the left? For zerg its very useful!
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Hey. Are there any changes in hotkeys for CGs and Build Basic/advanced ? Today I start using and learning The Core, I downloaded PRMM version and print spreadsheet. I see only that spreadsheet has 0.6.3 version and files from skydrive 0.6.2, so maybe thats a problem and I should wait for update. I have a normal keyboard, not using it on laptop.
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Also on mouse side buttons..... Why did you reject camera rotate left right on the side mouse buttons? I have never used rotate left or right because it was too hard to hold the button down while shift clicking attack and clicking on an enemy scv...... But using the side mouse buttons might be a solution that adds value. It seems debatable that next sub group / prev sub group on the side mouse is help full?
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I wanted to add my voice to those who have tried to use sidebuttons on the mouse but failed. I liked the non-mouse version of TheCore, I will try to use M4 / M5 but I'm not sure it would be useful this time.
That said, I can simply remap next subgroup back to an unused control group, and I'll survive. Just wanted to let you know.
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I'm going to try and clarify some things. Jak, please correct me if anything here is inaccurate.
On the mouse:
1) the mouse buttons are mathematically faster individually than all keys except the home keys.
2) both buttons used in combination (and with no keyboard at all) is slower than 2 keyboard keys with different fingers.
3) the side mouse buttons are only uncomfortable to press while spamming.
On TheCore:
4) the old version of TheCore will still be available: you do not need to make this change. It is only recomended because we have determined it to be more efficient.
Here is why:
5) I said it before, but you will not need both buttons at the same time. If you have two spell casters on one control group, then you already are not using TheCore optimally. But if you do, then hopefully you don't have a third unit, in which case next and previous subgroup will do the exact same thing.
6) you will always press a keyboard key after each time you use the mouse. We are NOT talking about making macro mandatory on the mouse. We are only talking about next and precious subgroup. This is over twice as efficient as before: with two buttons, buildings at the end of a selection are faster to get to, which means you can get back to microing faster. Further, multiple keyboard presses on the same key is slower than multiple presses of one side mouse button.
7) all races benefit heavily from a new ability on the thumb. Terran macro becomes much much better because of the new ability (I think Jak might be keeping this one a surprise so I won't spoil it). Terran and Protoss get to have all abilities for any unit be on different fingers. This is more awesome than you might imagine: you select your control group for that caster and BOOM your brain already associates a finger with a spell. Hallucinate become far better because of the amount of available commands. Now there are no double keypresses (except hallucinate archon which you just hold down). Zerg desperately needs another key to deal with the amount of abilities and larva that exist. With the new key the thumb, burrow and Unburrow become more efficient, build advanced becomes easier, and you don't need to break your hand on the keyboard to make ultras. Further spread creep is back to a home key.
I quite literally see one small disadvantage versus a multitude of advantages (next and previous subgroup become better, plus everything above). I realize many of you are uncomfortable or haven't used it much, or fear it will hurt your micro. There is no evidence that it will hurt your micro, and the discomfort is something that can be overcome with learning. This is the small disadvantage, I suspect it will take longer to get used than other things, but then again, if you are learning TheCore from scratch them adding this in isn't a big deal. Most people type much more than they use the mouse buttons. It's natural that it feels uncomfortable at first. TheCore was never meant to be easy though,
It's meant to be optimal, and we firmly believe that this change truly increases efficiency (and overall comfort, once learnt) more than it decreases it.
TLDR: Next and previous subgroup on the mouse buttons is a more efficient way to maneuver, allowing the user to get back to microing faster. Further, / and Z bring a host of advantages that TheCore can benefit from.
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@ fury
The mouse buttons cannot be rotation, because your next move will be a click. This is very inaccurate and forces you to move the mouse in a way you are not used to (because you need to hold the mouse button down).
I am interested in the select all workers buttons you made. Why so you say it is useful (particularly for zerg)?
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Hmmmm, I've got to say I was kinda intuitively against the mouse button changes (as it seems almost everyone else was) but Ninjury_J does make some good points... and TheCore's got better and better so far so I guess I'll have to at least give it a shot.
The main problem for me will be that I use M4/M5 (whichever is the back button while browsing) for drag scrolling (I think that's what it's called anyway, where you hold down a button and the screen now moves with your mouse). I've always thought this was the most efficient way of moving the screen about as it gives more control than edge scrolling (it moves as quickly as you move your mouse not at one set speed) and when you move your vision to centre on your point of interest your mouse cursor will immediately be right there hanging over it (as opposed to at the edge of the screen requiring more mouse movement). I believe the default key for drag scrolling is M3 (pushing down the mouse wheel) but given that I use my index and middle fingers on left and right mouse buttons this would mean having to take a finger off one of those vital buttons every time I have to move the screen about.. which feels super clunky.
As such if M4/M5 are going to be used as proposed I guess I'll just have to give up on the idea of drag scrolling entirely (as I feel like the clunkyness of using M3 would probably outweigh any benefit of drag scrolling over edge scrolling) which is a bit of a shame.. hopefully it's worth it!
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EPT
