EPTAny advice?
[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third - Page 6
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Tommyth
Poland117 Posts
Any advice? | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 19 2012 23:24 Tommyth wrote: I've been using this style for quite a while(i'm only diamond though) relatively succesful. I'm able to stop the roach max ~70% of the time, losing only when making some crucial mistakes (getting supply blocked/army out of position). However, I can't handle 3 hatch into muta/ling. Its easy to hold on two bases, as ur stalkers can get pretty fast to defend main or base. But when u are stretched to 3 base and muta flock gets big, it becomes almost impossible to do anything. I can't move out, any mutas i manage to snipe get reproduced, lings try to runby every few seconds all while Zerg expands everywhere on the map. When I finally manage to get rid of mutas, I find myself being on 3 bases compared to Z's 5-6, with finishing/finished GSpire and Blords on the way. Any advice? What's "this style"? If you're using one of the immortal builds, you rely on pressure to force units as you threaten an all-in push. This delays the mutas. Then blink into templar for muta defense. If you're using a phoenix build, get fleet beacon and anion pulse crystals. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
He simply walls off the side of his nexus with a couple of gates and a cannon behind, similarly to what one would do at his natural off a sentry expand. It's also interesting to notice how at around the 11 minute mark he throws down 3 extra gates that could wall the ramp to the natural instead, making it extremely hard for roaches to break. edit: also for anyone that's interested, the nestea vs squirtle replay is included in the ipl4 pack, should probably add that to the op. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 21 2012 17:06 Teoita wrote: Regarding simicities at the third, i really liked Trap's setup against Soulkey for Cloud Kingdom (and something similar could be done on Daybreak): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmqxDhOa-7c&list=PL49FC60D8488078B6&index=2&feature=plpp_video He simply walls off the side of his nexus with a couple of gates and a cannon behind, similarly to what one would do at his natural off a sentry expand. It's also interesting to notice how at around the 11 minute mark he throws down 3 extra gates that could wall the ramp to the natural instead, making it extremely hard for roaches to break. edit: also for anyone that's interested, the nestea vs squirtle replay is included in the ipl4 pack, should probably add that to the op. I've tried walls like this and I have to say I don't like them. The problem is that roaches can easily snipe those gateways and the exposed gas and there's little you can do about it, because you're you'll be attacking from a choke into a concave. And in general, I don't like exposed walls unless they're at the top of a ramp. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 22 2012 07:30 Teoita wrote: How would you simcity on Cloud Kingdom then? Like how Huk did vs Sleep in the NA MLG Spring Arena II Qualifier and how Killer did vs Ret MLG Spring Arena II. I mentioned this in the OP as well. I'd only sim the natural ramp and keep the majority of my army at my 3rd without any sim. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it. If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 22 2012 08:30 -MoOsE- wrote: How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend. The robo based builds don't do too well versus the On May 22 2012 08:36 Xequecal wrote: What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural. Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it. If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else. The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build. Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies. | ||
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soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On May 22 2012 08:50 NrGmonk wrote: The robo based builds don't do too well versus the The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build. Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies. Just want to point out that this Nestea build people are talking about (I assume it's the one from UnDs against JYP) relied on JYP not scouting at all and assuming mass roach. Nestea completely skipped a RW. It's not that safe at all... was just a mind game build, really. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia1004 Posts
Absolutely a lot of refinement is needed for many Protoss players to reinvigorate this matchup. Whenever I watch liquidhero play I feel he's unstoppable and that other players just need to catch up. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13431 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:38 Flonomenalz wrote: Just want to point out that this Nestea build people are talking about (I assume it's the one from UnDs against JYP) relied on JYP not scouting at all and assuming mass roach. Nestea completely skipped a RW. It's not that safe at all... was just a mind game build, really. Yeah, I also foresee nestea losing his third to a well executed 4 gate zealot timing since there won't be any roaches, or if he does hold he needs to be really larva inefficient with lings to simply not lose the third base. Though, in all honesty, its probably all based on how much he does or doesnt scout such as the gas taken at the natural etc etc. | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 23 2012 10:12 polysciguy wrote: so are all of these off of a FFE? Yes | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
It feels like so much of a supply disparity is perhaps too difficult to overcome without splash damage. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 23 2012 11:20 Xaeldaren wrote: How do you feel about rushing to Colossi while taking your third base? It feels like so much of a supply disparity is perhaps too difficult to overcome without splash damage. If you rush colossi, you won't have as many because of the robo bay requirement, the robo bay cost, and their large build time. You also won't have as many sentries due to gas restrictions. Immortals are just as good dps vs roaches, are more beefy, cost much less gas, build faster, and have less tech requirements. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
On May 23 2012 11:25 NrGmonk wrote: If you rush colossi, you won't have as many because of the robo bay requirement, the robo bay cost, and their large build time. You also won't have as many sentries due to gas restrictions. Immortals are just as good dps vs roaches, are more beefy, cost much less gas, build faster, and have less tech requirements. I've been having huge difficulties in dealing with the Roaches despite taking an early (7:00 usually) third and massing Immortals, but my forcefields are incredibly poor and I find myself losing outright to multi-pronged Roach attacks or barely surviving and dying to a subsequent Muta-switch. It felt like trying to combat so much without AOE was too hard, but you make great points and it's likely just how bad my forcefields are that are losing me games. | ||
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-eXalt
United States462 Posts
On May 22 2012 08:50 NrGmonk wrote: The robo based builds don't do too well versus the The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build. Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies. Assuming you go for quick 3rd builds in PvZ most of the time, what map veto's do you prefer? I veto Tal'darim and Metal for pretty obvious reasons, but I can't decide on whether to veto Antiga, Shak, or Korhal as my 3rd. Antiga has a pretty easy 3rd in PvZ, but it's tough against early eco-pools pvz (and PvT issues). Shakuras and Korhal both have very awkward thirds but doable lategame unlike Antiga IMO. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 23 2012 11:52 xOny wrote: Assuming you go for quick 3rd builds in PvZ most of the time, what map veto's do you prefer? I veto Tal'darim and Metal for pretty obvious reasons, but I can't decide on whether to veto Antiga, Shak, or Korhal as my 3rd. Antiga has a pretty easy 3rd in PvZ, but it's tough against early eco-pools pvz (and PvT issues). Shakuras and Korhal both have very awkward thirds but doable lategame unlike Antiga IMO. If you're adamant on macro play, Korhal is the worst map for it. It's not a bad map for all-ins though, which probably explains the insane PvZ win rate on it. | ||
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