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Thank you so much man, i play zerg and i have been dealing with protosses crying forever now. My favoritie part is i tell them how to get a third and get past the roach max using your first method that is between White-Ra and Stephano.
They all flame me and say oh some random zerg guy knows where the metagame is going to shift and all of the protosses dont. Yeah Right.
It has been annoying but whatever i am finally glad to play macro games vs protosses because i have almost 0 late game experience. Every game they all in or take like an 11 minute third, which is pretty much when my whole army is out with roach and ling speed.
I believe the macro protoss is the scariest. If they have as much gas income as a late game zerg then they can afford anything and a mothership is good. I cant wait to play NSH_Seal's style.
Good luck everyone and ill see you on the ladder!
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On May 06 2012 22:50 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:you forgot THE BEST expand build titan and welmu and me (high master toss eu) are using it it s a 6.30 4 gate (NOT AGRESSIVE, just for safety and unit production),7 min robo,7.45 nexus expand build you hold every stephano mass roach or ling roach builds FOR SURE, if you can play at least  i could write a guide about it, maybe if some guys are interested in it
If you can back up an in-depth guide for this with high level replays, I think every protoss who lurks or posts on this forum would read it and love you.
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On April 10 2012 11:33 Salivanth wrote:
Great thread already, awesome OP. I'm not at a level of play or understanding where I'm comfortable contributing, but I'm going to stop 2-base all-ining and start playing macro PvZ again.
You're a badass good sir. Admitting that you're not in Grandmaster or a pro and acknowledging that this conversation is over your head (mine too).
Love the post, and I too will stop my foolish 7 Gate +2 blink attacks.
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IMO getting a fast third (before the 10:30 minute mark) is the only way to play PvZ at a high level right now. 2 base all ins only work if you REALLY metagame / trick the zerg or deny scouting incredibily well which is tough cause on most maps zergs can auto scout your natural gas's and then know what you're doing.
My favorite safe counter-all fast 3d builds in PvZ right now are:
-a modified MvP Genius stargate opener. Quick void ray (4 additional gates while it's building and +1 attack)), followed up by 5+ hidden phoenix (will often surprise zergs after you deny scouting with your void ray. can supply block the zerg / force spores/ kill queens to delay any roach aggression a little bit.) > robo at ~8:40 > 3rd at 9:30-10:30 depending on how passive the zerg plays. Make a lot of sentries and immortals immediately. Important to get a twilight council after the 3rd to start +2 after +1 armor is done, and to get blink. This build is also amazing vs any muta builds, so hard for the zerg to do damage to 7+ well micro-d phoenix sitting over cannons in your mineral line.
-SlayerSPuzzle style robo first. I think you've mentioned it before in some of your posts. He gets double obs, 5 gates, and immortals from the robo while expanding between 9:00-10:00. +1 armor right after +1 attack is done. A cool thing about this build is that he fakes a robo sentry all in (which you can probably do if the zerg is being greedy) and scares the zerg while he just takes a 3rd off of the super safe sentry immortal. Important to go robo first before gates, so you can get your 2 obs out quick as you need some way to scout the zergs rally point and outside ur 3rd base.
I also use a robo build that gets the 3rd at 7:50, but only on some maps. Either way, 2 base all ins are realllly bad vs good high master zergs who have practiced the 3 hatch no-gas build so much, so I suggest that everyone practice quick 3rd builds.
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I just played a game on ladder: http://drop.sc/174224
Fast third example game!
Edit: Just realized he has about 15 drones on a geyser... : [
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Hey TL, first post here! Thanks for having me, looking forward to a long and comfortable stay.
For the last few weeks I have been working on a 1/3 gate expo (depending on whether or not I sense pressure) into +1 attack and robo. go warp prism first for zealot warp ins to harass the third around 8:30.
Early defense covered by cannon/sentry/stalker/zealot as necessary with a good sim city. You go into heavy sentry + immortal play for defense and can add a third around 9-11 min. If you want to be really brave with gas do 4 sentries instead of 6 and go for a fast charge play to make the harassment super effective.
I find this build puts me in a good position against zergs going for 3 base roach plays.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:41 -Exalt- wrote:
IMO getting a fast third (before the 10:30 minute mark) is the only way to play PvZ at a high level right now. 2 base all ins only work if you REALLY metagame / trick the zerg or deny scouting incredibily well which is tough cause on most maps zergs can auto scout your natural gas's and then know what you're doing.
My favorite safe counter-all fast 3d builds in PvZ right now are:
-a modified MvP Genius stargate opener. Quick void ray (4 additional gates while it's building and +1 attack)), followed up by 5+ hidden phoenix (will often surprise zergs after you deny scouting with your void ray. can supply block the zerg / force spores/ kill queens to delay any roach aggression a little bit.) > robo at ~8:40 > 3rd at 9:30-10:30 depending on how passive the zerg plays. Make a lot of sentries and immortals immediately. Important to get a twilight council after the 3rd to start +2 after +1 armor is done, and to get blink. This build is also amazing vs any muta builds, so hard for the zerg to do damage to 7+ well micro-d phoenix sitting over cannons in your mineral line.
-SlayerSPuzzle style robo first. I think you've mentioned it before in some of your posts. He gets double obs, 5 gates, and immortals from the robo while expanding between 9:00-10:00. +1 armor right after +1 attack is done. A cool thing about this build is that he fakes a robo sentry all in (which you can probably do if the zerg is being greedy) and scares the zerg while he just takes a 3rd off of the super safe sentry immortal. Important to go robo first before gates, so you can get your 2 obs out quick as you need some way to scout the zergs rally point and outside ur 3rd base.
I also use a robo build that gets the 3rd at 7:50, but only on some maps. Either way, 2 base all ins are realllly bad vs good high master zergs who have practiced the 3 hatch no-gas build so much, so I suggest that everyone practice quick 3rd builds.
Yea, I like those 2 builds as well. But for Genius's stargate into robo build I prefer Hero's version which is 1-2 voidrays into pheonix into fast robo into 4 gates. It trades some sentry energy for faster robo and more immortals and might get another voidray to deter roaches. The 3rd build I've been looking at is one used by Squirtle and Puzzle which is a 4 gate sentry pressure into immortals into expand.
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My problem with this build, in any variation, its clever zerg players.. are rare, but there are somewhere.
If they see me expanding, they stop roaches and rush hive tech with broodlords at 15:00 or so with maybe some harass of a group of 10mutas or so. This put me in a defensive position, because i'vent got really nothing to deal about, and they simply bank for a 2\3 respawn of the same deathball. Statistically, 1 of this 3 remax of bl\if, you engage poorly, and you die. I wonder what will happen when all zerg learn to do it as a standard with a refined build..
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On May 07 2012 21:38 InVerno wrote:
My problem with this build, in any variation, its clever zerg players.. are rare, but there are somewhere.
If they see me expanding, they stop roaches and rush hive tech with broodlords at 15:00 or so with maybe some harass of a group of 10mutas or so. This put me in a defensive position, because i'vent got really nothing to deal about, and they simply bank for a 2\3 respawn of the same deathball. Statistically, 1 of this 3 remax of bl\if, you engage poorly, and you die. I wonder what will happen when all zerg learn to do it as a standard with a refined build..
You can hit with a colossus timing before they get there generally. If they rush to broodlords without the proper amount of infestors you can just kill the broods with a blink in.
You can also do a slightly weaker colossus push but combine it with a mothership at home. Ideally you kill a base then or at least force a huge load of spine crawlers while your mothership is finishing up.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 07 2012 21:38 InVerno wrote:
My problem with this build, in any variation, its clever zerg players.. are rare, but there are somewhere.
If they see me expanding, they stop roaches and rush hive tech with broodlords at 15:00 or so with maybe some harass of a group of 10mutas or so. This put me in a defensive position, because i'vent got really nothing to deal about, and they simply bank for a 2\3 respawn of the same deathball. Statistically, 1 of this 3 remax of bl\if, you engage poorly, and you die. I wonder what will happen when all zerg learn to do it as a standard with a refined build..
Don't know what "this build" is you're referring to, because I don't mention a specific build in the OP. However, usually with most macro based PvZs, you can't punish a fast broodlord tech at all which gets its first broodlords at 15:00. Colossi timings won't work, because you won't have colossi out fast enough with any known "safe" roach max build and they should only be gotten reactively by scouting no roach max. Ling/infestor/spine can stop any non-colossi based push and you can only usually have around 2 colossi max at your opponent's front door at 15:00. Thus, imo you have to either play a macro game vs broods or try to catch your opponent offguard and hit him in places his broods and spines aren't protecting.
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I think it's important to fake an all-in if you want to take a third, or mess with the dronecycles somehow. Something I've been thinking about is that by going for an early zealot->stalker->stalker you force some early lings, after which you can go 4gate zealot or just fake it by building a proxy pylon in the zergs vision, forcing more stuff, then you can go for an immortal/sentry/stalker composition and clear a tower to force even more stuff. Another possibilty is going for a void ray instead of the robo to force spores which also reduce the dronecount. Basically it's all a bout messing with him so that he can't get to 200 roaches that fast.
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On May 07 2012 16:06 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 11:41 -Exalt- wrote:
IMO getting a fast third (before the 10:30 minute mark) is the only way to play PvZ at a high level right now. 2 base all ins only work if you REALLY metagame / trick the zerg or deny scouting incredibily well which is tough cause on most maps zergs can auto scout your natural gas's and then know what you're doing.
My favorite safe counter-all fast 3d builds in PvZ right now are:
-a modified MvP Genius stargate opener. Quick void ray (4 additional gates while it's building and +1 attack)), followed up by 5+ hidden phoenix (will often surprise zergs after you deny scouting with your void ray. can supply block the zerg / force spores/ kill queens to delay any roach aggression a little bit.) > robo at ~8:40 > 3rd at 9:30-10:30 depending on how passive the zerg plays. Make a lot of sentries and immortals immediately. Important to get a twilight council after the 3rd to start +2 after +1 armor is done, and to get blink. This build is also amazing vs any muta builds, so hard for the zerg to do damage to 7+ well micro-d phoenix sitting over cannons in your mineral line.
-SlayerSPuzzle style robo first. I think you've mentioned it before in some of your posts. He gets double obs, 5 gates, and immortals from the robo while expanding between 9:00-10:00. +1 armor right after +1 attack is done. A cool thing about this build is that he fakes a robo sentry all in (which you can probably do if the zerg is being greedy) and scares the zerg while he just takes a 3rd off of the super safe sentry immortal. Important to go robo first before gates, so you can get your 2 obs out quick as you need some way to scout the zergs rally point and outside ur 3rd base.
I also use a robo build that gets the 3rd at 7:50, but only on some maps. Either way, 2 base all ins are realllly bad vs good high master zergs who have practiced the 3 hatch no-gas build so much, so I suggest that everyone practice quick 3rd builds.
Yea, I like those 2 builds as well. But for Genius's stargate into robo build I prefer Hero's version which is 1-2 voidrays into pheonix into fast robo into 4 gates. It trades some sentry energy for faster robo and more immortals and might get another voidray to deter roaches. The 3rd build I've been looking at is one used by Squirtle and Puzzle which is a 4 gate sentry pressure into immortals into expand.
Would you happen to have a link to HerO's take on a quick third?
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This is a style I've played for a while. What would you think about going in to 4 gate robo before third, and then getting your twilight council, more gates, blink, and HTs? Still viable?
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I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
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On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote:
I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
how du you defend baneling bust?
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On May 08 2012 00:38 gitarrojoe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote:
I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style? how du you defend baneling bust?
By engaging banelings head on with my zealots, 1by 1... Also reinforcing your wall with other buildings helps. Him wasting larvae on banelings means I can chrono probes.
Although I've lost to busts as well if I trade badly. You can also attack banelings with singular probes. It takes 2 banes to kill1probe.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:49 Arcanefrost wrote:
I think it's important to fake an all-in if you want to take a third, or mess with the dronecycles somehow. Something I've been thinking about is that by going for an early zealot->stalker->stalker you force some early lings, after which you can go 4gate zealot or just fake it by building a proxy pylon in the zergs vision, forcing more stuff, then you can go for an immortal/sentry/stalker composition and clear a tower to force even more stuff. Another possibilty is going for a void ray instead of the robo to force spores which also reduce the dronecount. Basically it's all a bout messing with him so that he can't get to 200 roaches that fast.
That's morrow's opinion as well. However, there have been very successful macro builds that don't involve faking an all-in such as Hero's or Puzzle's builds.
Would you happen to have a link to HerO's take on a quick third?
Look up Hero vs Stephano from EGMC from about a week ago. He does variations of the build in games 1 and 3.
On May 07 2012 23:52 Nuclease wrote:
This is a style I've played for a while. What would you think about going in to 4 gate robo before third, and then getting your twilight council, more gates, blink, and HTs? Still viable?
Sure, this sounds like a build that Squirtle and Puzzle have both used in the past. However, you can't really get templar until you either stabilize vs the roach max or you know a roach max isn't coming.
On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote:
I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
I'll paste my opinion of this from another thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=335149#2
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The thing that I'm worried about is that there needs to be more pressure on the Zerg. Seems impossible to me to keep up with their drone count if you don't put pressure on. I like to go 4 gate robo before the third (but still get the third up around 10 minutes). It seems to me though, that if the Zerg is smart and can read that I'm not going for a push, they will drone up like CRAZY, and then by the time they get to Brood Lords, I can't hope to engage with their army. What are your thoughts on that, Monk? Any favorite ways to put some pressure on? And do you think that's it's okay to avoid pressure of they are going for a roach push? I feel like the roach push, if defended, can damage them enough, if it's held well, that the worker disparity can be made up for. But if they go straight to BLs with TONS of drones, I don't feel like this fast third style is aggressive enough, necessarily. Thoughts?
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For what it's worth, here is what's almost become my standard PvZ. It's just a regular ladder game, but an example nontheless.
http://drop.sc/174402
I get a fast 3rd, at about the 10 minute mark. Involves my typical Warp Prism play and some early aggression overall. We stay even in income until about the 8minute mark, and even then once my harass hits I kill 13 drones evening it once again.
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On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote:
I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
I'll paste my opinion of this from another thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=335149#2
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So you feel that you have to hide the gate. Which can be done quite easily on some maps... I wall with forge gate pylon reinforcing the pylon with my cybercore later on. The other gate can only be seen if they bust my wall.
What is the general consensus on double robo double stargate? I feel that it allows for the flexibility we all long for. I overproduce gates like you say, purely for simcity, which allows me to warp in a lot of units mid fight. More production than I can support so that I can build what I require when I need it.
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EPT
