On May 08 2012 02:30 jackalope1234 wrote: I've been tearing up the ladder with a build I've been using lately. This is high master gm players im playing. It starts with a nexus first. you then go straight into stargate while building 2 zealots and a stalker. The most important thing is the first 150 gas goes directly into stargate not upgrades or the stalker. you attack with the first void a phoenix being chronoed and the first 3 units. These also clear watchtowers and make it so the zerg doesnt know what you are doing. This is followed by 3 more gates while taking your third and constantly producing phoenix to help with harass. Ive gone as high as 7 and just dont lose them all game. They are ridiculously cost effective if controlled properly. you set up 2-5 cannons depending on how you multitask at your third while getting a robo and 3 more gates. Upgrade weapons throughout and add a second forge twilight and a 2nd robo when possible. dont add a second robo if muta but he should not be going muta vs upwards of 7 phoenix and you should scout it with your air units. With this build I've supply blocked zergs ridiculously taken a fast third killed all the queens drones free roaches, etc. It is a solid macro build vs mass roach you as you are able to entirely scout the zerg while macroing and making him produce units or spores. If he plays passively and goes fast hive just harass go for a 16 minute push with collosus stalker and usually 2/2-3/3 ups and you should be able to kill him outright. I have a million replays if anyone is interested.
Hey NrGMonk, have you had a chance to look at the build that Stardust/M18M showed in his Proleague appearance vs Roro recently? It was a 2 gate +1 zealot pressure into air build that takes a quick third around the 10 minute mark. What do you think about the viability of the build opposed to what has already been outlined in this thread? I've used it on the KR ladder with a moderate amount of success (Admittedly, only diamond level) and it seems to force the Zerg into such a position that a 12 minute max just isn't possible.
On May 24 2012 03:17 las91 wrote: Hey NrGMonk, have you had a chance to look at the build that Stardust/M18M showed in his Proleague appearance vs Roro recently? It was a 2 gate +1 zealot pressure into air build that takes a quick third around the 10 minute mark. What do you think about the viability of the build opposed to what has already been outlined in this thread? I've used it on the KR ladder with a moderate amount of success (Admittedly, only diamond level) and it seems to force the Zerg into such a position that a 12 minute max just isn't possible.
On May 24 2012 03:17 las91 wrote: Hey NrGMonk, have you had a chance to look at the build that Stardust/M18M showed in his Proleague appearance vs Roro recently? It was a 2 gate +1 zealot pressure into air build that takes a quick third around the 10 minute mark. What do you think about the viability of the build opposed to what has already been outlined in this thread? I've used it on the KR ladder with a moderate amount of success (Admittedly, only diamond level) and it seems to force the Zerg into such a position that a 12 minute max just isn't possible.
I've been doing this exact build for the last year. I think it holds close to everything with proper execution. I made a thread about it before that game even took place and I was so happy to see the dedicated macro stargate + cannons used in the proleague. I wish the zerg had put up a reasonable defense instead of sort of crumbling to the weird look that hes probably never seen before.
As he said, it's not explored enough to be proven as viable, but its sure as hell never been proven unviable.
Check out this thread for more discussion about that strategy.
Just tried the Stardust build a couple of times, and i have to say that is really fun and very good for Ohana (friendly path to 3rd plus kinda choked mid paths)
@Forgetaboutit: I'm not familiar with your build, does it have some form of pressure?
What i like from the Stardust build is that it get a pretty solid ~7:40 +1 pressure (kinda micro dependant but still, can be really good). Then once the pressure ends, you already have 2 voids out, and maybe the z don't know your tech yet. Timings are pretty tight tho, and in open maps can be harder to go out without a critical mass of air. Still, as most builds in the match up, if you play vs a Z that knows the build, he can easily rip apart it with the proper reactions.
On May 24 2012 14:36 Belha wrote: Just tried the Stardust build a couple of times, and i have to say that is really fun and very good for Ohana (friendly path to 3rd plus kinda choked mid paths)
@Forgetaboutit: I'm not familiar with your build, does it have some form of pressure?
What i like from the Stardust build is that it get a pretty solid ~7:40 +1 pressure (kinda micro dependant but still, can be really good). Then once the pressure ends, you already have 2 voids out, and maybe the z don't know your tech yet. Timings are pretty tight tho, and in open maps can be harder to go out without a critical mass of air. Still, as most builds in the match up, if you play vs a Z that knows the build, he can easily rip apart it with the proper reactions.
The opening doesn't really matter, the main theory is the midgame composition, expansion timing, and the allocation of resources. You can get to this point using a few different openings, and there is plenty of room for refinement. I've been doing a 7-8 zeal pressure from 2 gates with no gas, and no upgrades, it hits faster and is really good for scouting, I've also tried the slightly later and lower econ +1 timing, I've also gotten a few zeals to poke off 1 gate and teched a lot harder. It's hard to say whats best.
Also, I disagree with your last sentence. I have never been hard countered.
Hi all. Low master protoss here. Im strugglin' a lot against 12mins maxed roaches. What Im doing on PvZ is simple: I go either for a really greedy 3rd - 1 gate - +1 attack - robo right after cybernetics - zealot, sentry, sentry - 2~3 fast observers~ and then I get my 3rd (around 7~8ish) making simcity with 3 more gates (on the 3rd) and cannons to hold any early agression. I clear watch towers with the initial zealot and sentries to avoid scout on my 3rd. After observers are done I spam immortals like crazy. I have success holding that 12min max roches when i properly forcefield, since i'll have something like 7~8 sentries or even more when the push comes out.
OR I do the same but with fast 3 more gates on my main and a fast warpprism, dropping zealots on zerg base while getting my 3rd and again spamming immortals. I have success with both builds the huge problem is the follow up.
Zerg either try to push and trade whatever they have or go insane macro mode. That's where the problem starts: If I hold the pressure without big losses I win by counter attacking. If zerg just don't attack me I got scared of attacking (because their army is huge) and i try to catch up the army and push, which is usually too late as they get broodlords and infestors faster than I get MS + Archons. Im stuck and this is my PvZ experience nowadays.
Excellent guide and discussion so far. Nice job guys.
On May 24 2012 19:15 alexisonfire wrote: Hi all. Low master protoss here. Im strugglin' a lot against 12mins maxed roaches. What Im doing on PvZ is simple: I go either for a really greedy 3rd - 1 gate - +1 attack - robo right after cybernetics - zealot, sentry, sentry - 2~3 fast observers~ and then I get my 3rd (around 7~8ish) making simcity with 3 more gates (on the 3rd) and cannons to hold any early agression. I clear watch towers with the initial zealot and sentries to avoid scout on my 3rd. After observers are done I spam immortals like crazy. I have success holding that 12min max roches when i properly forcefield, since i'll have something like 7~8 sentries or even more when the push comes out.
OR I do the same but with fast 3 more gates on my main and a fast warpprism, dropping zealots on zerg base while getting my 3rd and again spamming immortals. I have success with both builds the huge problem is the follow up.
Zerg either try to push and trade whatever they have or go insane macro mode. That's where the problem starts: If I hold the pressure without big losses I win by counter attacking. If zerg just don't attack me I got scared of attacking (because their army is huge) and i try to catch up the army and push, which is usually too late as they get broodlords and infestors faster than I get MS + Archons. Im stuck and this is my PvZ experience nowadays.
Excellent guide and discussion so far. Nice job guys.
I like the fast warp prism into a 3rd, it's similar to the build TT1 uses. What he does is push out early with a Zealot/Stalker to trick Zerg into making a few extra lings, and also to get a pylon closer to the 3rd so he can warp a few zealots. After the warp-ins force Zerg to make roaches earlier than they want, he drops 4 sentries into the main mineral line (delay mining, kill a few workers) while he takes a 3rd base and moves into Immortal/Sentry and eventually colossus. My build was so thrown off by the pressure that my max out roach style arrived late, only to be mutilated by 3base Sentry/Immortal/Colossus:
On May 24 2012 14:36 Belha wrote: Just tried the Stardust build a couple of times, and i have to say that is really fun and very good for Ohana (friendly path to 3rd plus kinda choked mid paths)
@Forgetaboutit: I'm not familiar with your build, does it have some form of pressure?
What i like from the Stardust build is that it get a pretty solid ~7:40 +1 pressure (kinda micro dependant but still, can be really good). Then once the pressure ends, you already have 2 voids out, and maybe the z don't know your tech yet. Timings are pretty tight tho, and in open maps can be harder to go out without a critical mass of air. Still, as most builds in the match up, if you play vs a Z that knows the build, he can easily rip apart it with the proper reactions.
The opening doesn't really matter, the main theory is the midgame composition, expansion timing, and the allocation of resources. You can get to this point using a few different openings, and there is plenty of room for refinement. I've been doing a 7-8 zeal pressure from 2 gates with no gas, and no upgrades, it hits faster and is really good for scouting, I've also tried the slightly later and lower econ +1 timing, I've also gotten a few zeals to poke off 1 gate and teched a lot harder. It's hard to say whats best.
Imo, the match up is kinda a race, where z starts slowly and got a sick boost from minute 7:30 and on. I don't agree with "the opening doesn't really matter". If you want whatever mid game plan is to success, you must have certain and an acording early game plan. I've seen pretty good mid-game ideas, but withouth a solid and smart earlygame base pressure, is just dust. I love your build idea, but if we want it to be mainstream class, the most efficient press must be identified. I agree that you need more that one early game plan tho, to mislead the z.
In the case of the Stardust build, the main steps connect so nicely, that makes it pretty easy to learn and very smooth. And i guess that if it have the korean seal, it should be efficient ^^
@Tang: Thx a lot for the idea/replay. I remember watching a squirtle vs stephano game with a pretty similar build, but i totally forgot to "study" the build (classic when watching reps -.-"). Edit: Nvm, checked the rep, Squirtle went zealot-stalker then void pressure, then robo-prism/sentry, then 3rd.
well of course the opening technically matters, I mean you can't cut probes on 8 or do something stupid. You have to be efficient, but I figured we were assuming this.
For example, if I'm talking about Mech TvP midgame, I could say, the opening doesn't matter. This doesn't mean you throw up buildings at random, it means select from something with a reasonable transition. 1-1-1, 1rax FE, CC first, Proxy Helions, whatever.
I've been trying out something like what NrGMonk has been talking about...fast robo, slightly delayed 3rd compared to some of the ultrafast 3rd builds that were discussed in kcdc's thread on Stephano-roach-max.
Here are two representative reps. Bear in mind that I'm a mid/high-masters player, so these aren't going to be high-master/GM quality and may not be indicative of what works there/is ideal.
On May 24 2012 19:15 alexisonfire wrote: Hi all. Low master protoss here. Im strugglin' a lot against 12mins maxed roaches. What Im doing on PvZ is simple: I go either for a really greedy 3rd - 1 gate - +1 attack - robo right after cybernetics - zealot, sentry, sentry - 2~3 fast observers~ and then I get my 3rd (around 7~8ish) making simcity with 3 more gates (on the 3rd) and cannons to hold any early agression. I clear watch towers with the initial zealot and sentries to avoid scout on my 3rd. After observers are done I spam immortals like crazy. I have success holding that 12min max roches when i properly forcefield, since i'll have something like 7~8 sentries or even more when the push comes out.
OR I do the same but with fast 3 more gates on my main and a fast warpprism, dropping zealots on zerg base while getting my 3rd and again spamming immortals. I have success with both builds the huge problem is the follow up.
Zerg either try to push and trade whatever they have or go insane macro mode. That's where the problem starts: If I hold the pressure without big losses I win by counter attacking. If zerg just don't attack me I got scared of attacking (because their army is huge) and i try to catch up the army and push, which is usually too late as they get broodlords and infestors faster than I get MS + Archons. Im stuck and this is my PvZ experience nowadays.
Excellent guide and discussion so far. Nice job guys.
If he's going for the mass roach style, you don't need MS + Archons. The only reason 200/200 mass roach works is because you're down so much in supply when he hits. You are ridiculously cost effective, it's just his production and supply advantage. Build up for another minute or two with Immortal/Stalker/Sentry and then go kill him at like 160-180 supply or something. They'll be screwed. Making 200/200 roaches and not attacking with them is like you Immortal/Sentry all-ining and then deciding not to attack. It's just bad.
At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
He saw the roach/ling moving out much earlier than you would for a max timing and with no roach speed with his stargate units.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
I watched the replay, and Stephano was actually going for his trademark roach play into MC's 3rd, but he realized he forgot roach speed and abandoned this strategy. This is why MC was so easily able to kill him later on. Stephano's build needs to do some damage or it will die to pushes like those.
I'm also fairly sure that MC knew that Stephano would go for his roach push, because he scouted Stephano's gas count and roaches rallying to his 3rd. Seeing slow roaches doesn't preclude this push, because roach speed could potentially finish at any time. I wouldn't say MC definitely would have lost to the push, but that build that MC used seems very hard to defend. Keep in mind, however, that the map is rather good for defending and MC holds these pushes better than anyone else.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote:I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
I'm high masters and routinely hold off aggression with no Robo (double Stargate)
EPT
