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[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-18 20:40:29
April 09 2012 23:38 GMT
#1
[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third

Background:
Recently, Stephano's 11-12 minute roach max has been the central focus of PvZ and every protoss build has to be built around how to deal with this style. 2 of the best zergs in the world, Stephano and DRG, almost exclusive employ one form or another of this build and it is largely because of this standardized build that they hold much more ZvP success than any other Zerg in the world. They are also only 2 zergs who say they are confident in ZvP in interviews, with Stephano even going to claim that ZvP is imbalanced for zerg and that the only way for Protoss to win is to be both tricky and lucky. Even Nestea, the 3rd contender of the best zerg uses this style heavily. The build is basically 2 parts:
  1. Have a solid 3 base macro build that can react to and defend any protoss all-in and come ahead. Every player's macro build is slightly different, but they're all similar and achieve the same infrastructure. This is not "Stephano Style". It is just standard 3 base macro ZvP.
  2. Max on Roach heavy/ling light between 11 and 12 minutes with 4 hatches and 4 gas. Proceed to overrun any attempts by the Protoss to take a 3rd. The timing of the max largely depends on pressure, but for reference, a lower level masters player can max by 12:00 without much pressure while Stephano's record is a 10:50 max. This part is the true "Stephano Style Roach Max", not any build that gets 5 or 6 gas or a spire in the middle of maxing.
This game is an excellent example of this style for anyone who's not familiar with it. In it, the Protoss player does a lot of stuff right, but fails to hold the roach max.


Theory:
Similarly to the PvZ situation now, until about a year ago, Terrans too were relying on 2 base timings to deal with zerg. As zergs began learning how to deal with all of the various and numerous timings, Terrans' success with those timings began to drop. However, eventually Terrans learned how to play "greedy" but safe macro builds that allow the Terran to keep up with econ. Two examples of these builds include:
  • Reactor hellion->cc->cc->Make 4 hellions->tanks
  • 1 rax cc->double gas->reactor hellions->banshee->cc
This is the natural progression of a matchup. Once 1 base allins have been figured out, Terrans began transitioning into 2 base all-ins and 2+ base macro play. Onces 2 base allins are figured out, Terrans transitioned into more 3+ base play(I hesitate to call anything 3 base allin, but some game plans are allin off of 3 bases). These 3 cc macro builds are now the standard of how terrans play TvZ.

PvZ, on the other hand, has been lagging behind the TvZ metagame for quite a bit as 2 base all-ins are still by far the most common strategy. Now, I could blame this on a variety of things such as:
  • The inflexibility of FFE and how Zerg can get a free 3rd.
  • The fact that Protoss units work better in balls and thus are less effective non all-in pressure. For example, marines, hellions and medivacs work much better individually than sentires/stalkers/immortals.
  • Nexii can't float like CCs.
Now as Zerg began figuring out all the 2 base all-in timings (and as they figure out the most recent immortal/warp prism all-in), Protoss all-ins will begin to get gimmicky and coin flippy, either relying on your opponent not scouting/recognizing it or relying on him not knowing how to defend. The next logical step is 3 base macro builds.

The problem with current macro PvZ isn't that stalker/colossi can't handle Zerg as well as marine/tank. It's more that Protoss doesn't currently have well-accepted standard solid macro builds that allow them to get enough units to defend a Zerg max. The way Protoss are playing it now, they end up behind if they try to take it to the macro game every time. This is why I suggested faster thirds in order to play a more effective macro game in this thread.

I see the 3 base roach aggression in PvZ as I do the 2 base roach baneling semi all-in in TvZ. It is the main aggression 3 base macro builds have to deal with when they are in their weakest state. Terrans, when adapting to this 2 base aggression, have been forced to tweak their builds to be safe, usually adding either siege tanks or banshees; most other builds are considered risky. The is similar to how the 2 base roach ling aggression from Zerg once limited what Protoss could do off of 3 gate expand and forced a lot of innovations(For example, you could no longer go 3 gate into tech while skimping on units, 1 gate expand into tech into 3 gates was developed as a reaction, and Protoss got much better at controlling versus this push.) In the same token, I believe the 3 base roach aggression will do the same to Protoss. All "safe" macro builds will have to be more refined and very specific; not all types of random Protoss builds into 3rd will work. This will effectively limit Protoss macro options, just as the roach baneling aggression limited safe Terran macro options and the 2 base roach ling aggression limited safe transitions from gateway expands.


General Tips:
Anyways, as I have said before, I think the keys to defending a 3 base build against this specific roach aggression include: scouting, sim city, cannons, forcefields, macro, unit composition, and army splitting. Anytime I see a Protoss fall to roach spam, he's always missing a few of these points.
  • Scouting: A lot of people, even pros, neglect this key point. The thing is pros can, because they can sometimes assume from their opponent what they're going to do. For example, in JYP's recent series versus Stephano, JYP just assumed Stephano would do the same build each game and he was right.
  • Sim city: When you can put gateways in sim city, you should; they work just as well, if not better than depots as blockers. In many cases, you can make gateways just to sim city even if you don't need them for protection as they can be more useful in defense than cannons or stalkers for the same price. Tails made this mistake of just putting gateways in his main vs Nestea at IPL and just lost when he had to waste all his forcefields to hold roaches at bay.
          In addition, I think it's ridiculous that every single Protoss has different sim cities on the same map. I wouldn't have a problem with 2, 3, or maybe even 4 different versions, but literally almost every Protoss does something slightly different. People need to figure out what's best, agree to it, and do it.
    + Show Spoiler +
    Something I came up by watching Puzzle and Huk: Instead of trying to sim city your third on certain maps, instead sim city the ramp leading to your natural. Maps this is applicable on include Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, and Atlantis Spaceship(when you take the rich 3rd). On each of these maps, there are problems with sim citying your 3rd for different reasons. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd has 2 entrances to sim. Daybreak's 3rd is relatively wide to fully sim and it doesn't have a ramp so roaches can easily pick off gateways if you try to do it that way. Altantis Spaceship just has an easily accessible rich 3rd you can abuse if you sim the ramp near your natural. So what you do is sim your natural and position your army at your 3rd unless you see a major attack coming from to your natural. Also, you can rally immortals to your natural to act as cannons. This game is a good example of the type of sim I'm talking about.

  • Cannons: Especially behind sim city, roaches cannot focus fire cannons well. Cannons+ sentries is also a more efficient use of minerals/gas for defense than stalkers
  • Forcefields: This is just something people have to work on. Every Protoss besides MC I've seen use more forcefields than they have to in a given situation. Protoss in general just need to get better with this basic Protoss skill. Sim city also lessens the amount of forcefields you have to use. You also can devote forcefields into trapping and killing roaches instead of blocking roaches out of your base. One innovation I've seen mostly in PvT, but also PvZ, is getting faster but fewer sentries. Because sentries hardly do damage, getting 6 sentries earlier can equate to the same number of forcefields as 10 sentries later.
  • Macro: Your opponent has an efficient macro build, that with decent macro, maxes between 11:30 and 12 minutes; you should have good macro build as well, backed by sufficient macro. A good macro build gets your 3rd as fast as possible so that when the roaches do hit, you have the economy to back up your defense. Spending all your money, especially under roach pressure, is just mechanics.
  • Unit composition: Sentries are the most important unit by far. Voidrays can work, especially when backed up by sim city/forcefieds to allow them to charge; modern Protosses who rely on voidrays to hold off attacks usually get 2. Immortals also obviously work and are the best unit you can make vs roaches. Blink stalkers, on the other hand, aren't as helpful if you're relying on primarily sim city/forcefields/cannons to defend. This doesn't mean they're bad, as you usually need them to defend possible mutas if you didn't open stargate.
  • Army splitting: As you're defending 2 positions, you will need to split your army into 2 parts. There are a few things you can do to more efficiently and correctly place your troops. First is scouting. An obs/voidray/phoenix/hallucination in the area outside your base between your natural/3rd. Your sim city also allows you to delay the roaches, allowing you to reposition units.

Actual Builds:
Now for some successful builds: The following are the most successful and solid macro PvZ builds I’ve seen in the last few months gathered from every broadcast PvZ. They’re also the macro builds that I use. The builds are from my personal notes, so they might be a bit messy. I've also included benchmarks, because I've become really into those recently.
  1. Puzzle’s fast robo into 9:30 3rd
    A simple robo expand with fast observers that feigns an immortal all-in but expands behind it. In contrast to a fast third, this build gets more immortals and fewer but faster sentries for an extremely efficient roach defense. Puzzle gets 2 obs, one to scout zerg's tech and one positioned outside his bases to correctly split his army when the roach max comes. Susceptible to being blind countered by people who go blind 3 base muta without accounting for the all-in.
    Build:+ Show Spoiler +
    3:18 gateway
    3:55, 3:58 gas-20 supply 2nd game 4:05
    5:12 +1
    5:37 wg, sentry, sentry, sentry, sentry
    6:15 2 gas
    6:20 robo-2 obs, rest immortal
    7:20 3 gates
    7:55 2 gates
    8:25 wgs finish
    up to 6 sentry
    9:30 3rd
    10:20 twilight
    10:30 3 gates in sim
    + Show Spoiler +
    Benchmarks:
    5:00: 27 supply
    6:00; 37 supply
    7:00: 47 supply
    8:00: 58 supply
    9:00: 77 supply
    10:00: 97 supply
    11 minutes: 111 supply, 64 probes, 2 obs, 2 zealot, 2 immortal, 8 stalker, 6 sentry
    12 minutes: 127 supply, 68 probes, 2 obs, 2 zealot, 3 immortal, 11 stalker, 6 sentry
    much faster blink, +2

    Game 2:
    11 minutes: 111 supply, 63 probes, 1 obs, 3 immortal, 8 stalker, 6 sentry
    12 minutes: 132 supply, 74 probes, 2 obs, 4 immortal, 8 stalker, 6 sentry


    Game 1: Puzzle vs True: Shows a game versus a traditional roach max and how easy it is to win after you’ve defended the push efficiently.

    Game 2: Puzzle vs True: Versus a roach/hydra push on a big map. Shows a colossi transition versus hydra.

  2. Puzzle/Squirtle’s 4 gate pressure into robo into 10:10 3rd
    Continuous pressure build that puts up multiple threats before expanding to force units. Pressure consists of 2 zealot poke, 4 gate +1 threat, and a gateway all-in threat.
    Build:+ Show Spoiler +
    3:15 gate
    4:20 core
    4:50 2 zealot(2 cb), sentry, sentry
    5:30 +1, +1 armor after
    6:30 3 gates
    7:30 2 gas
    7:45 robo-1 obs rest immortal
    4 sentry, 2 zealot/2 stalker, rest all stalker
    9:20 2 gates
    9:35 twilight, +2, blink after
    10:10 3rd
    11:20 2 gates in sim
    + Show Spoiler +
    Benchmarks:
    5:00: 28 food
    6:00: 35 food, 29 probes, 2 zealots
    7:00: 46 food, 36 probes, 2 zealots, 1 sentry
    8:00: 57 food, 41 probes, 2 zealots, 5 sentry
    9:00: 74 food, 49 probes, 3 zealots, 2 stalker, 6 sentry
    10:00: 85 food, 54 probes, 1 obs, 3 zealots, 5 stalkers, 6 sentry
    11 minutes: 100 supply, 57 probes, 1 obs, 3 zealot, 1 immortal, 9 stalker, 6 sentry
    12 minutes: 120 supply: 59 probes, 1 obs, 4 zealot, 2 immortal, 13 stalker, 6 sentry


    Game 1: Puzzle vs Lucky: This game is versus a weaker 6 gas roach max into mutas. It shows the most likely transition into templar.

    Game 2: Squirtle vs Nestea: Versus a traditional roach max. One of the most interesting things about this game was Squirtle's use of his one observer. He uses it to accomplish 2 things I've mentioned previously. After confirming the roach max style, he doesn't leave the observer in Nestea's base like most protoss would. Instead, he immediately sends it back to just right outside his base for an effective scout that lets him correctly split his army. This is the hardest working and most purposeful observer I've ever seen.

  3. Hero’s stargate into fast robo into 10:20 3rd
    This is a stargate opening that is extremely focused on defending the roach max. Gets 2 voids on smaller maps and rushes an extremely fast robo for a higher immortal count. The 2 voids, phoenix, high immortal count, and low stalker count all go very far into stopping a roach max. Also gets lots of phoenix to keep you safe versus a muta transition. However, it’s slightly weaker versus hydra based pushes on smaller maps and doesn’t allow for as strong a 170ish food push. It also more forces you to head for a colossi transition instead of templar transition versus the other builds, which are more flexible.
    Build:+ Show Spoiler +
    gateway-zealot, stalker, zealot, sentry
    5:30 stargate-voidray or 2, 7:30-5 pheonix
    6:45 3rd gas
    7:10 robo-1 obs, rest immortal
    7:50 +1
    7:50 4th gas
    8:25 3 gates
    10:20 3rd ideally
    10:50 2 gates
    + Show Spoiler +
    Benchmarks:
    5:00: 28 supply
    6:00: 36 supply
    7:00: 51 supply
    8:00: 61 supply
    9:00: 77 supply
    10:00: 85 supply
    lost: 1 pheonix, 1 sentry, 1 zealot
    11 minutes: 106(112) supply, 4 zealot, 1 probe, 1 obs, 2 immortal, 1 stalker, 1 sentry, 1 voidray, 5 pheonix
    lost: 5 zealot, 2 sentry, 1 immortal
    12 minutes:108(132) supply


    Game 1: Hero vs Stephano: Gets 1 voidray, because the map is huge. Shows how careful you have to be when expanding early with this build.

    Game 2: Hero vs Stephano: Gets 2 voidrays, because of the short rush distance. Unfortunately, Hero forgets warpgates in this game. =(
A note on fast 3rd builds: While I still believe that fast 3rd builds(6:30-9 minutes)might be possible, there just hasn't been any really solid, standard fast 3rd builds at an extremely high level, which explains the lack of fast 3rd builds in this guide. I also personally have had more success with the previous builds. A delayed 3rd lets you get a higher immortal count and faster sentries for more energy, so you don't have to get as many sentries. I've personally come to the conclusion that these two factors, along with the threat of a 2 base attack, might be more important both overall and in a roach defense than the extra income you might get from the faster 3rd, which can only be invested into cannons, gateways, stalkers, or more sentries with fewer energy each.
Moderator
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
April 09 2012 23:46 GMT
#2
are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc?

some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example)
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
April 09 2012 23:55 GMT
#3
Great post, as a Zerg I often wonder why Protoss players do not try to evolve the meta game beyond the standard FFE / 2 base timing attacks that have become so predictable.

The Squirtle vs Nestea Game on Daybreak is a particularly good example- he breaks some of the cardinal rules of protoss and still wins.
- He splits his army into 2 groups (gadzooks! what an idea)
- He takes a fast 3rd against Z (Oh noes!)
- No Colossi (Dear me!)

This deadly roach push is shut down if the protoss gets a significant number of immortals. I'm not saying its easy to do what squirtle did (He has basically perfect scouting, sim city, cannons, forcefields, and macro) but its doable and I'm surprised more toss don't even make the attempt.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
April 10 2012 01:05 GMT
#4
On April 10 2012 08:46 thrawn2112 wrote:
are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc?

some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example)

Yes, that's kind of what I'm saying. As I referenced above, I like to think of 3 base roach as a very sharp timing, very similar to 2 base roach ling and roach baneling in ZvT or roach ling allin vs 3 gate expand in ZvP. At first, these builds had very high win rates, with T/P confounded. I remember the Slayers Terrans at IPL3 talking each other in the booths trying to figure out what to do as Lucky took them all out one by one with roach ling allins. Eventually, this forced the non Z races to tweak their builds so that they would be safe versus these very specific all-ins at very specific timings. Imo Protoss just has the adjust their 3 base expansion builds so that they're safe versus this 12 minute push and then figure out 3+ base macro play from there.
Moderator
Ncage
Profile Joined October 2009
United States91 Posts
April 10 2012 02:19 GMT
#5
An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.

In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.

I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
April 10 2012 02:33 GMT
#6
Great thread already, awesome OP. I'm not at a level of play or understanding where I'm comfortable contributing, but I'm going to stop 2-base all-ining and start playing macro PvZ again.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
GoStu
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada60 Posts
April 10 2012 02:48 GMT
#7
I like the OP so far. It does raise a question for me: do you think we'll keep going FFE into a third, or will other expand builds have to be smoothed out? Personally I think the FFE does you no favors towards your third as you invest so much early game into Forge wall-off + cannons, and it does bugger-all to help you when it's time for the third.
"Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense"
Tingles
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia225 Posts
April 10 2012 02:58 GMT
#8
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote:
An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.

In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.

I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.


I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off.
It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent.
Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning.
That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
Hashmeister
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany238 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 03:01:52
April 10 2012 02:59 GMT
#9
Thanks for the Thread. You mention interesting ideas. But tbh i've watched a lot of progamers streams in the last couple of weeks and imho, pvz is a bit off right now because of this mass roach style. A lot of those progamers im talking about HAVE IN FACT been trying to do most of the things u r saying above - like scouting and so on and so forth - but STILL it is not enough.

You gave (one of the) games of WhiteRa vs. Stephano, but yet WhiteRa HIMSELF is one of the progamers im talking about... he says that it is not balanced and that this mass roach style kills u if u dont do some kind of allin... basically it kills you, if you do what is suggested in this thread (macro style play) [Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UBSIrpHHbkE]

To clarify: i myself am really trying to do what u r saying above, but it JUST works if the zerg doesnt play that style or plays too passive. IF he executes everything perfectly (max at bout 12 mins and attacks ur third) it is RIDICULOUSLY hard to hold it and even if u do u find 100000 roaches are coming behind it so that in the end, the old rule of war remains: "numbers >> bravery" lol

and another point i wanna mention is that we casual gamers (masters or lower) cannot really be judges of that, because we ourselves + our opponents are just too "variable" - now i might win all my PvZs against this style, but it is because my opponent is too bad etc... what we need are the PROGAMERS to tell us what they think, they have the most practice and they have the most insight... we could (and always do here) ramble on about what we think but imho only what progamers think really counts!

and too many Protoss pro-gamers right now are saying that pvz is imbalanced, which is good enough for me to accept (exactly like the time the infestors got buffed around may 2011 - same thing: most P progamers did agree that its imba -> change came a couple of weeks later). i think its the same situation now.

Cheers.
bit.ly/hashmeister
naggerNZ
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand708 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 03:18:58
April 10 2012 03:18 GMT
#10
In my experience as a Zerg player, a lot of Protoss players try and do a 2base timing attack 6gate/7gate Blink/5gate robo/etc, but instead of committing to the all-in, just make units and try and take a third. And in my experience, this is a free win.

So in essence I think the points you make are absolutely correct. If you want to play a macro PvZ you need a build specifically tailored for a fast third, otherwise you are dependent on killing my third and a lot of workers to expand safely after a 2base timing.

There is simply no way to hold a 3base max Zerg with just Blink Stalkers and Immortals. You need a lot of sentries, and gateway/cannon walls at your third.
JASONB0URNE
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia22 Posts
April 10 2012 05:37 GMT
#11
Great piece, Monk! Thank you.

All points are very sensible, in my opinion. Do you still recommend opening FFE/Nexus first? In your post I think the assumed opening was FFE.

Can you please talk about upgrades. The roach spam style I have been seeing have double evo upgrades churning for their roaches. What do you recommend, from your experience?

Over the weekend I did so many 2 base all in timings and they all fell flat on their face. I would really like to get this three base+ style thought out!
oriwarr
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden29 Posts
April 10 2012 05:52 GMT
#12
I agree with Hashmeister, builds like this can only be done when the conditions are perfect (such as you know exactly what he is doing, how the map looks like and so on..)

I am a mid-toss on EU server and I've been experimenting with similar builds for a while now with practice partners and I seriously doubt that this is the future for pvz.

I like the way grubby is playing nowadays with his stargate/robo style but it's nothing new. Something has to be done for this from blizzard imo because I honestly don't see a solid way of stopping this.. just listen to the pros complaining, it's not like they are not trying hard enough.
mapleleafs791
Profile Joined September 2010
United States225 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 06:01:45
April 10 2012 05:59 GMT
#13
On April 10 2012 11:58 Tingles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote:
An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.

In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.

I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.


I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off.
It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent.
Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning.
That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.


just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.

Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race
Spor.534 Master Zerg NA
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
April 10 2012 06:25 GMT
#14
"(I hesitate to call anything 3 base allin, but some game plans are allin off of 3 bases)"
first and foremost, you must not watch any JulyZerg
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Tingles
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia225 Posts
April 10 2012 06:39 GMT
#15
On April 10 2012 14:59 mapleleafs791 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2012 11:58 Tingles wrote:
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote:
An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.

In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.

I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.


I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off.
It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent.
Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning.
That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.


just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.

Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race


Sorry it came across that way, but that wasn't the argument i was making ^_^
I completely agree with you.
But what i am saying is that there are certain strategies that are alot easier to execute than vs what is required to defend it. Muta ling in pvz, 1-1-1, 4gate ( not so much anymore, but back in the day ), colossus voidray deathball on 2base ( same deal ) are examples of this IMO.
But the mutli pronged style DOES require you to have pretty good mechanics ... there isn't a way around that. You can do multi pronged crazy attacks all you want, but when your attack ends and you haven't macro'd at home, and the Zerg has a surplus of units ( which WILL happen ), then your just going to die to a counter.
Not playing the OP card ... i don't think mass roach style is imba. Just needs to be worked out ... and for a while PvZ is gonna suck ... Just like it did vs Mass Muta not so long ago ^_^


mapleleafs791
Profile Joined September 2010
United States225 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-10 07:22:15
April 10 2012 07:12 GMT
#16
On April 10 2012 15:39 Tingles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2012 14:59 mapleleafs791 wrote:
On April 10 2012 11:58 Tingles wrote:
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote:
An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.

In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.

I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.


I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off.
It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent.
Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning.
That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.


just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.

Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race


Sorry it came across that way, but that wasn't the argument i was making ^_^
I completely agree with you.
But what i am saying is that there are certain strategies that are alot easier to execute than vs what is required to defend it. Muta ling in pvz, 1-1-1, 4gate ( not so much anymore, but back in the day ), colossus voidray deathball on 2base ( same deal ) are examples of this IMO.
But the mutli pronged style DOES require you to have pretty good mechanics ... there isn't a way around that. You can do multi pronged crazy attacks all you want, but when your attack ends and you haven't macro'd at home, and the Zerg has a surplus of units ( which WILL happen ), then your just going to die to a counter.
Not playing the OP card ... i don't think mass roach style is imba. Just needs to be worked out ... and for a while PvZ is gonna suck ... Just like it did vs Mass Muta not so long ago ^_^




i can agree with that especially since i know how that feels for protoss. it may be op now but lets see what comes up. i feel like you're the first person to approach balance rationally from what iv seen. i love it lol.

i really hope more people just learn to admit their mistakes. as a zerg why do people complain so much? as a zerg micro matters just as other races but why even complain? people wont see it your way. tosses and terrans are complaining but without people being at least in top master its hard to accept the QQ. every loss to me is attributable to my lack of skill but idk why people dont admit it.

im gonna keep playing zerg and win or lose fuck it. zerg is the race that i enjoy so screw win ratio's. from 5 rax reaper to now zerg is the best imo and i will stick with it agree or not, people need to love their own race
Spor.534 Master Zerg NA
FGL
Profile Joined February 2012
Canada14 Posts
April 10 2012 08:18 GMT
#17
I think we should start looking for the most efficient simcity for every third base/position/map similar to how important figuring out simcities for the natural was when forge fe first started becoming popular.

Something I'm having troubles with is simcitying the third on cloud kingdom. I think I have to simcity diagonally and use the nexus as apart of the wall since roaches can wrap around the large ramp. I also find it a lot easier to hold my third if I do a complete walloff of the first ramp with the destructible rocks. 2-3 Cannons and 2 sentries can stop potentially game-ending pronged attacks into my natural/surround my units at my third. This way I would only have to worry about full frontal attacks at my third.
team NMx http://sc2ranks.com/us/2354017/NMxFGL
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
April 10 2012 08:31 GMT
#18
Glad to see this. Since I've been taking fast 3rds, I've improved my army splitting and FFing. I'm a fan of the White-Ra style though I have died to slow lings on an occasion where the Z saw me drop the 3rd.
Mercurial#1193
ahmyyyyd
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Germany47 Posts
April 10 2012 09:07 GMT
#19
i am only in high diamond/low master protoss but i win like 80% if my games against the zerg with 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure. Behind that i take my third/ add 2 more gateways a robo and a twilightcouncil. and usually im able to defend with stalker centry voidray and 1 immortal.

but yeah only low master niveau^^
TechSc2
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Netherlands554 Posts
April 10 2012 09:25 GMT
#20
On April 10 2012 18:07 ahmyyyyd wrote:
i am only in high diamond/low master protoss but i win like 80% if my games against the zerg with 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure. Behind that i take my third/ add 2 more gateways a robo and a twilightcouncil. and usually im able to defend with stalker centry voidray and 1 immortal.

but yeah only low master niveau^^


Yeah this push can be very deadly if the zerg doesn't scout it. Once you hit mid to high masters zergs know exactly what to scout for. the voidray zealot push for example is chrono on core, forge getting +1 and you have 1 voidray out and a second one in production. Once the zerg sees this specific set of buildings/units/chrono usage they know what's up and can defend it with 5 roaches ( yes 5 roaches!), 2 queens and 1 spore.

I still use the timing from time to time, to mix it up on ladder or in a BoX series, but usually doesn't kill the third base. If i'm transitioning well afterwards i do have a nice void/stalker/sentry/immo ball to defend my third, but it can be hard to defend roach hydra all ins.

@Monk i thought you were also fiddling around with gate-nexus-core openings?

I'm working such a type of build, and with playing it absolutely safe ( ie gate-nexus-forge-cannon-core ) i can still get my first warp in cycle up at 7:40, and i bet once i get used to certain timings and scout how many lings he produces i can get it out at 7:30 with +1 done.

In essence what i'm saying is that with a earlier timing that you can hit, you can get up a faster third, or delay the roach max since the roach warren already needs to go down at 6 minutes instead of 7 to defend a 7:30 warp in cycle. This is a huge impact on a Z's econ
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