EPT[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third - Page 5
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jackalope1234
122 Posts
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
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JaxxUK
20 Posts
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zygote
2 Posts
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:30 jackalope1234 wrote: I've been tearing up the ladder with a build I've been using lately. This is high master gm players im playing. It starts with a nexus first. you then go straight into stargate while building 2 zealots and a stalker. The most important thing is the first 150 gas goes directly into stargate not upgrades or the stalker. you attack with the first void a phoenix being chronoed and the first 3 units. These also clear watchtowers and make it so the zerg doesnt know what you are doing. This is followed by 3 more gates while taking your third and constantly producing phoenix to help with harass. Ive gone as high as 7 and just dont lose them all game. They are ridiculously cost effective if controlled properly. you set up 2-5 cannons depending on how you multitask at your third while getting a robo and 3 more gates. Upgrade weapons throughout and add a second forge twilight and a 2nd robo when possible. dont add a second robo if muta but he should not be going muta vs upwards of 7 phoenix and you should scout it with your air units. With this build I've supply blocked zergs ridiculously taken a fast third killed all the queens drones free roaches, etc. It is a solid macro build vs mass roach you as you are able to entirely scout the zerg while macroing and making him produce units or spores. If he plays passively and goes fast hive just harass go for a 16 minute push with collosus stalker and usually 2/2-3/3 ups and you should be able to kill him outright. I have a million replays if anyone is interested. Like Zygote, I'm also interested. | ||
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Grubby vs GispatoCat Grubby's build is geared towards taking a fast third and has several interesting features: He doesn't exclusively chrono probes, spending a lot of it on warp gates and +1, constantly makes sentries Goes 2 gates before robo, for a total of 3 gates and a robo Warp gates are done around 8:00, warps in sentries and takes third, researches hallucination Efficient probe count of 46 or so before the third Obs first, followed by immortals Interesting sim city for antiga Follows with twilight, constant chronos on upgrades and blink The third timing is a good 3 minutes before the beginning of the roach max. Faster warp gates threaten pressure and allow you to take a quicker third than builds that chrono probes (this doesn't include the 6 min 1 gate white ra third). | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:38 NrGmonk wrote: [*]Cannons: Especially behind sim city, roaches cannot focus fire cannons well. Cannons+ sentries is also a more efficient use of minerals/gas for defense than stalkers While Cannons and Sentries are really good at dealing with Roaches, they are not so good against Mutalisks (Cannons in combination with Stalkers are effective, but Mutalisks will be able to find sweet spots between Cannons to do significant damage, especially if you don't have a lot of Stalkers prior to the Mutalisks showing up. Furthermore, the Zerg can be ultra greedy and simply not attack, and if you don't have a good core army of Stalkers, you won't be able to punish them for it. I'm not entirely convinced that a faster third is the solution here, especially one that depends on the creation of wall to survive. That obviously gives the Zerg player a timing in which they can hit (prior to the wall going up or as it is building). Sure it does well vs Stephano's max Roach build, but if the Zerg just adjusts their timings, they can punish you since you really don't have that many units when your taking you're third. And then we'll be delaying taking our third and Zerg can go back to the 11-12 minute max Roach pushes. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
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Fierytycoon
United States85 Posts
however i dont find the roach max to be an issue, there hasnt been a single game out of the many ive played recently where i took an extremely fast 3rd and the zerg used max roach this is probably because i use every single building i have to make my wall as well as get stargate tech first(before robo) so the zergs know its probably not going to work if they maxed roach for the 12 minute timing instead the zergs do numerous other strategies..everything besides max roach 1. hydra/roach/ling/corruptor timing attack that comes a bit later than the max roach when hes around 180 food and im at 120 assuming nothing special happens mid game....zerg has around 65 drones 2. the quick hive for broods 3. muta play these strategies are seriously godly for the zerg compared to the max 200 roach ive been HOPING to face 1. hydras, unlike roaches, actually has high dps and range that can take out gateway buildings easily that are on the same ground level and they become the main problem in the attack....at this point if u opened the way i did with very quick 3rd, and stargate tech before robo tech, you only really have 1 collosus before timing comes(i usually have 0 cause i mess up my macro and make robo late osmetimes)...so u are really just defending with sentry/1-2 voids/stalkers/maybe 1 immortal or so and it just overwhelms a protoss with sim city that opens the way i open 2.the straight up macro style play is probably the hardest to deal with, and if i was a zerg and see these quick 3rds it would be the choice id choose, they basically get hive tech at around the 10:30 to 12 minute mark and have broods by around 15 or something and theres really no way to punish them playing a standard macro up on 3 base toss game(at least i dont think so) and because of this lack of aggression, u are forced to play the ultimate macro game as well and tech to mothership, etc...but in my experience games like this favor the zerg, whos been playing super greedy macro already with a 4th base, his brood tech up, and his desired max drone count he wants for the game....he then goes on to basically get all infestorss/ corruptors/broods/spines while u are getting a composition that is inferior to his, with worse economy 3. if u go for these super robo techy stuff and realize that the zerg is not raoch aggressing at all and rushing to mass mutas off 3 bases, u are fighting an uphill battle, ull need mass cannons/few stalkers in each base/tech to high temp to defend with storm...even if u manage to hold off the zerg's mass muta play....unless the zerg messes up severely at some point by losing a lot of mutas attempting to hold off your perfect defense, u will find yourself playing a game where after holding off the mutas and securing your 3rd, or even maybe finding yourself taking a 4th or so....that the zerg has managed to get hive tech and is on the process or already has broods while on 4/5 bases....with a core 3 bases and maybe 4th and 5th bases being accross sides of the map with 1 spore and few spines...while u probably are not ready to handle it and have yet to get a mothership this is why i have have only now recently ventured into trying to play a macro game vs 3rd with the styles everyone here is suggesting and using as opposed to my 2 base timing attack, and similar to everyone's experience, 2 base timing attacks are only as good as your opponent's capabilities....in my case, crushing or the less experienced masters/low gm zergs...but seemingly crushed in every way vs the top tier zergs who truly grasps how to hold off builds that are at their mercy | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 19 2012 05:42 Teoita wrote: Thanks a lot for the edit, definitely helps a lot! I think this should go in the recommended threads since it's how modern macro pvz is played. I would, but I've been really lazy with updating it recently. It's a lot more work than it seems plus it's extremely boring. I've got a lot of other, more exciting, projects in the works. | ||
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KingLumps
74 Posts
a tip though... go to the watch towers with only one zealot and the others slightly behind so he doesn't know you have multiple zlots, and try to avoid going near areas that zergs like to keep their ovies, such as those little blue boxes on daybreak. here's something I've been wondering though... is there difference between early pressure and later in terms of damage done to zerg economically? What I mean is if you force a zerg to make something other than drones earlier when he has fewer drones does it hurt his eco more then if you do say a +1 4gate later, when he already has more drones? I'd really like to know how it works. | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:46 thrawn2112 wrote: are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc? some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example) The matchup doesn't need any huge changes in my opinion. Sim city and army position is the key . | ||
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
On May 19 2012 07:06 -Switch- wrote: The matchup doesn't need any huge changes in my opinion. Sim city and army position is the key . You are correct. Sim City and army position are certainly key. You didn't mention what league you're in.. NrGmonk - I want to kiss you. This was a great read. I feel like I sorta kinda understand the game, but reading someone such as yourself on topics such as these allow me to get a taste of all the nuances that I would never find myself. Thank you thank you thank you! | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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