EPTYou probably can't adjust your build in time if he is going hydra vs pure roach vs muta, but at least knowing how many units will hit and where might be immensly helpful on a lot of maps, especially with the sentry+immortal defensive builds.
[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third - Page 3
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
You probably can't adjust your build in time if he is going hydra vs pure roach vs muta, but at least knowing how many units will hit and where might be immensly helpful on a lot of maps, especially with the sentry+immortal defensive builds. | ||
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
On April 13 2012 01:19 Teoita wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is a reasonable timing to get hallucination off ffe? 9ish minutes? I think that might go a long way towards at least scouting what the zerg is doing and helping with army positioning. You probably can't adjust your build in time if he is going hydra vs pure roach vs muta, but at least knowing how many units will hit and where might be immensly helpful on a lot of maps, especially with the sentry+immortal defensive builds. What about never? After FFE you rely on probe scouting for the third, harass him with any +1 zealot ( and extra unit ) combination and see what he defends with to pin him on at least a certain path. i.e. pure ling crawler defense is more likely muta or infestor play. Roach defense is at least roaches till around the 12-13 minute mark. And to be honest the zergs that go roach defense into muta are the least scary in my opinion. Once you harassed you get a robo up to get 2-3 observers ( at least that's what i like to get ) to spot for multi pronged attacks, and to scout out his base for tech path. my first observer normally pops at around 9 minutes | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
On April 13 2012 01:08 Treehead wrote: Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game. I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it. You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming? I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:05 -Trippin- wrote: I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week. I don't see the advantages this build has over 1 stargate. Also, it seems really vulnerable to roach/hydra drops. | ||
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:08 NrGmonk wrote: I don't see the advantages this build has over 1 stargate. Also, it seems really vulnerable to roach/hydra drops. I'm on my phone at the moment, so it is difficult to list all of the advantages, but the main one is that it forces hydras, which you then crush wih fast collosus and sentry stalker, then you begin producing voids again for your death push. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:27 -Trippin- wrote: I'm on my phone at the moment, so it is difficult to list all of the advantages, but the main one is that it forces hydras, which you then crush wih fast collosus and sentry stalker, then you begin producing voids again for your death push. Let me see if I understand the idea. You get a fast 4 void rays to pressure, then pump all your gas into colossi. Once you've got a handful of colossi you go back to VRs for lategame. Somewhere in there you also get "mass sentries". Seems like a lot of gas. Doesn't seem like a bad gameplan, but then - as Monk pointed out - making just like 2 voids out of 1 stargate also forces hydra or mutas. I guess the reason you have two stargates (beyond forcing out another queen or two and probably more spores than he'd want to build) is that if he chooses muta you can still get away with not making blink stalkers? Also, how do you not die if they just don't make hydras and swarm with roaches? 1 stargate makes big roach pushes hard enough. When (/if) you make the guide, be sure to include a 3-base roach spammer. | ||
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DoubleDare
Canada48 Posts
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Cyrus- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide. Same here. Also interested in seeing your guide to compare it with my current play style, I have a feeling we have a lot of similarities except I try to beat hydra timings with good micro and a mass of air, while you get a fast tech switch and pump colossus. I think our endgame composition is about the same though. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
If it's a hydra mix, this wouldn't work, but then zerg would also have a much lower mobility. This also frees up robo facility build time, as you don't really need observers unless the zerg goes burrow. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
titan and welmu and me (high master toss eu) are using it it s a 6.30 4 gate (NOT AGRESSIVE, just for safety and unit production),7 min robo,7.45 nexus expand build you hold every stephano mass roach or ling roach builds FOR SURE, if you can play at least  i could write a guide about it, maybe if some guys are interested in it | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
The interesting thing is the extent of this greed. In terrans case, it is the fast third orbital and quick bio upgrades. I am skeptical of 1 gate double nexus builds in this match up, since there is virtually no way to deny the zerg from scouting this and reacting. The situation is similar to the PvT FFE when the terran takes a gas, you have no idea what he could be doing. However, it might be feasible to bring forward the 9-10 minute nexus timings to about 8 minutes or so. This is usually the time when the toss executes 4 gate pressure, so there is enough to hold against pure lings. MC and Hero both favoured fast stargate tech, which yields the void ray capable of fending off slow roaches. With constant production off 3 gates and a robo, the timing window to prepare for the zerg max is increased by a full minute or so. Imo it becomes v difficult to macro with a ten minute third against the roach max, since your full attention is required with ffs, sim city and runby's. By playing v greedily in the first 8 minutes, it might be possible to optimally saturate your third before the max hits and reap the benefits. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
I've been adapting a gateway first on the low ground style that Attero uses and I've been seeing a lot of success recently in really slowing down Zerg macro. If you make a gateway before nexus or anything else and make zealots, you can oftentimes force a cancel on the third or a lot of unit production. The only problem I've found is that tech is a little bit slow and stargate isn't a very viable follow up with regards to it being able to hold an all in or all in counter from zerg. It lends itself much much better to robo play. You still take your third and turn it to a macro game. You take the third behind follow up pressure. You can frontload the minerals and go for a zealot 4 gate followup if the zerg doesn't lose their third, or go for warp prism drops to help secure the third base. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:07 ZeromuS wrote: I have a question if FFE is so rigid and passive, why not do a gateway first style opening where a forge is still gotten and cannons still have a defensive purpose. I've been adapting a gateway first on the low ground style that Attero uses and I've been seeing a lot of success recently in really slowing down Zerg macro. If you make a gateway before nexus or anything else and make zealots, you can oftentimes force a cancel on the third or a lot of unit production. The only problem I've found is that tech is a little bit slow and stargate isn't a very viable follow up with regards to it being able to hold an all in or all in counter from zerg. It lends itself much much better to robo play. You still take your third and turn it to a macro game. You take the third behind follow up pressure. You can frontload the minerals and go for a zealot 4 gate followup if the zerg doesn't lose their third, or go for warp prism drops to help secure the third base. This is the titan build. See his games vs Stephano in a recent tournament to see how Stephano reacts to it. With the up coming queen change, zealot pressure is further weakened. The build may slow zerg macro a little, but it also slows your macro and tech. | ||
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Tommyth
Poland117 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On April 13 2012 00:58 Razultull wrote: i fully stand behind this style and frankly 2 base all ins were becoming too coin flip for my taste. Even though i knew i was better than my opponent i would lose. So i have been resorting to faster 10 min thirds behind a 4 gate zealot pressure with 1-1 and a warp prism to deal damage to two fronts. This style prevents the zerg droning from getting out of hand as it has pressure throughout the game and you can safely take a third with sentries and 2 immortals and blink stalkers off 6 gates, very similar to what is being described above. Monk if you have anything you could add to this style i would greatly appreciate it, here are some of my replays from the mid master ladder. I am sorry i am only mid master but kiwikakki, attero, Noumena and even Oz play a very similar style which means barring my chobo-ness it should work :D . Note that it opens off 2 gate ways instead of 1. The inclusion of a sentry to wall off the main from reinforcements is something i have been meaning to implement. Recent replays: http://drop.sc/157358 http://drop.sc/157357 http://drop.sc/157356 http://drop.sc/154919 http://drop.sc/157355 Do you have replays where the zerg defends and the game continues into a macro battle? I just watched the 5 replays and out of them only 1 opponent hit the 8:00 60-70 food benchmark. Additionally, only two players scouted the warp prism and one player scouted the two gateways at the front and had an answer for the early zealot pressure. One of the players (the zerg on antiga) completely stopped macroing for over a minute and focused solely on the zealot pressure. Every player lost their main. In other words, only one of them played a decent game and you could have probably flat-out won on two bases with the damage you dealt. I have no doubt you could have expanded without the crippling damage to your opponent. However, the replays did not show the long-term effects of the fast third and how it aided against zerg's late game composition. | ||
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BoCCan
Sweden14 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:05 -Cyrus- wrote: I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week. Willing to share the replays now? Or do we need to wait for the guide? | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:15 chestnutcc wrote: This is the titan build. See his games vs Stephano in a recent tournament to see how Stephano reacts to it. With the up coming queen change, zealot pressure is further weakened. The build may slow zerg macro a little, but it also slows your macro and tech. No, I don't believe its the titan build. I don't do a four gate quickly, I send my initial zealots and rally more to the third. If I don't force a cancel I greatly lower its health to the point at which a four gate zealot follow up at 8 minutes to 9 minutes hits with the same power off an ffe but with a lower health hatch to kill. If they want to hold the hatch they need units the Zerg cannot make roaches as a response and deflect my zealots as is normal. whereas vs the usual timing they can save a hatch in the yellow or the red I start my attack on a red or yellow hatch. it makes the follow up more likely to kill the hatch. | ||
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