EPT[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third - Page 2
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
I do not agree on army splitting though, it is already hard to deal with maxed roaches with a non split army. You just need to scout the enemy roaches and position your army accordingly. | ||
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Tingles
Australia225 Posts
On April 10 2012 16:12 mapleleafs791 wrote: i can agree with that especially since i know how that feels for protoss. it may be op now but lets see what comes up. i feel like you're the first person to approach balance rationally from what iv seen. i love it lol. i really hope more people just learn to admit their mistakes. as a zerg why do people complain so much? as a zerg micro matters just as other races but why even complain? people wont see it your way. tosses and terrans are complaining but without people being at least in top master its hard to accept the QQ. every loss to me is attributable to my lack of skill but idk why people dont admit it. im gonna keep playing zerg and win or lose fuck it. zerg is the race that i enjoy so screw win ratio's. from 5 rax reaper to now zerg is the best imo and i will stick with it agree or not, people need to love their own race Unfortunately that shit wont fly in real life =P People need an excuse other than their shitty play as to why they lost. Of course when I'm rage laddering I'm thinking "that was so herp derp 1a HURRR your race is a joke" ... but I know it's not. I actually play better knowing straight away that when I've lost, I've got mistakes to fix. And low and behold, checking a replay yeilds exactly what I thought. Mistakes. There has never been a replay that I've watched that I've honestly said "there's no way I can win vs that" unless I am versing someone with a much higher skill than me. Back on topic though, at my level ( plat / dia ) it's not so unforgiving against the mass roach style. It is winnable because the Zerg isn't going to execute perfectly. I've been thinking that perhaps a way to stop it might be to go stargate off FFE with like 7 phoenix and your entire goal is to snipe queens ... would severely hurt the production of the zerg and force them to earn their lava injects. Again, I doubt it's relevant at Master / GM level, but it's something I might have a go at if i get to frustrated. P.S. also agree about sticking with the race you like ... i find Zerg much easier that Protoss, but i like Protoss more =P | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
I wanted to bring a few points from the other thread over here. There are actually a number of fast builds which can be thought of as things we need to scout and have answers for - though the 3-base roach spam is by far the fastest. On April 04 2012 07:32 Alejandrisha wrote: just got 198/198 10:54 with lair started at 7 mins warren and evo starting at 7:20, +1 and roach speed started as soon as those buildings finished. should go with standard gas first 2 gas timings at 40-45 food imo, but lately zergs have been delaying these a bit more so but we'll play by the book  i don't think a macro hatch is necessary 10:50 was the best i could get. i think only way down from there is actually being a robot. i'm doing my best do be a robot but i'm not quite there yet tt You're reading this right. He was more or less maxxed at 10:50 on +1 speed roaches. Looking back at the builds in the OP, doing this will require that you will need to play from a position of being down something like (at 11 minutes) 140 supply of roaches vs. 40 supply of protoss units from the above builds. You need to play this very, very well, but that isn't all you need to worry about. On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens: standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish ~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e 10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though. what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run This build could potentially mean that your simcity and air units are in danger. Here again, you're looking at 50-70 supply of protoss units vs. 62 supply of lings, 56 supply of hydra, and 16 supply of roaches. If you rely only on FFs/Simcity, you will need to have colossi out if hydras are coming before this time - this is too much for a gateway/immortal army to withstand. On March 28 2012 18:25 Nyast wrote: Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive. I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that. He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors. The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny  There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast.. Provided you have contingency plans for the two above builds, here's another thing to react to. This probably isn't the type of thing you'll be able to 3-base timing push away (since timing pushes on spines/lings/infestors before 14 minutes seem difficult to make). And of course we didn't mention 3-base muta, which hits somewhere in the 11 minute range. I think you're getting the idea, though, fast 3-base builds are necessarily going to need to be able to scout and react to a ton of different builds getting rolling before 15 minutes. Once again, though, let's keep it constructive and on topic. It's easy to be daunted by the obstructions to a build of this type, but let's not do that - and let's not let destructive thinking sidetrack us. | ||
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daredpanda
United States60 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On April 10 2012 23:56 Treehead wrote: A lot of the posts above don't even really apply to the macro style of fast thirds in PvZ. Let's keep it on topic. I wanted to bring a few points from the other thread over here. There are actually a number of fast builds which can be thought of as things we need to scout and have answers for - though the 3-base roach spam is by far the fastest. You're reading this right. He was more or less maxxed at 10:50 on +1 speed roaches. Looking back at the builds in the OP, doing this will require that you will need to play from a position of being down something like (at 11 minutes) 140 supply of roaches vs. 40 supply of protoss units from the above builds. You need to play this very, very well, but that isn't all you need to worry about. This build could potentially mean that your simcity and air units are in danger. Here again, you're looking at 50-70 supply of protoss units vs. 62 supply of lings, 56 supply of hydra, and 16 supply of roaches. If you rely only on FFs/Simcity, you will need to have colossi out if hydras are coming before this time - this is too much for a gateway/immortal army to withstand. Provided you have contingency plans for the two above builds, here's another thing to react to. This probably isn't the type of thing you'll be able to 3-base timing push away (since timing pushes on spines/lings/infestors before 14 minutes seem difficult to make). And of course we didn't mention 3-base muta, which hits somewhere in the 11 minute range. I think you're getting the idea, though, fast 3-base builds are necessarily going to need to be able to scout and react to a ton of different builds getting rolling before 15 minutes. Once again, though, let's keep it constructive and on topic. It's easy to be daunted by the obstructions to a build of this type, but let's not do that - and let's not let destructive thinking sidetrack us. Good post. Roach spamming + drop tech should also be considered. I haven't yet seen 3-base roach spam + drop tech in a pro game, but I'm pretty sure that's just because P's haven't shown that they can defend 3-base roach spam w/o drop tech yet. If P's are eventually able to work out clever sim-cities with good forcefield micro at multiple positions simultaneously, Z's will start dropping the main while hitting the third, and the gosu forcefield micro won't be as helpful. | ||
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DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
Behind this warp prism harass, I'm building no stalkers, chrono'ing immortals, building a twilight and +2 attack while placing cannons at my 3rd and walling off. This happens at ~7-8 mintues. My only fear is that in the window that my warp prism is reaching the Zerg's 3rd, there are a swarm of lings killing the probe that is building the cannons at my 3rd BEFORE the cannons have completed. Once the cannons have completed, cannons are so good vs lings that the only thing that can force a cancel of the nexus is roaches (Because the cannons buy you time to move your army/warp in zealots). And if Z is going enough roaches early enough to cancel my nexus he must not have a lot of drones. And while chrono'ing immortals and having the 4 sentries that the standard FFE -> 4gate robo gets you roaches are often a non-issue. A Zealot/Immortal/Sentry composition will eat roaches alive when on defense. Basically the idea is to not build stalkers unless you're planning on killing the Zerg RIGHT NOW! or if you're absolutely forced to i.e. Mutas appeared and you have no cannons+storm or archons. With a 3rd in place, by the time the Stephano Roach/ling comes you've got a bunch of FF, storm nearing completion or already done, 4-5 immortals, ~9 gateways and a decent amount of zealots. With good map structure and Sim City, it's a cakewalk to hold the push with immortal/sentry/zealot + storm. You also get a really really nice timing at ~14-20 mintues depending on the early-game when your templar and sentries both have full energy. You have like 170 supply, ~12 gateways, 6 immortals, 6-8 templar, like ~12-16 storms, 10-16 Forcefields and a warp prism. If Zerg does not have brood lords, with proper micro you'll just flat out win vs anything. If he has broods, rush a mothership and storm the vortex with a few archons in it. | ||
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Flanq
United Kingdom2694 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:51 DarkblueRH wrote: I've always wondered why PvZ has devolved into all of these 2base plays. It's rather frustrating for me because I've always thought that a Turtle-Toss is better than anything Protoss can do off 2 bases. I've personally been playing around with a standard FFE -> 4gate Robo then loading up 4 zealots in a warp prism and sniping queens with it. If you drop zealots while the warp prism is moving, you can surround the queen with the 4 zealots and gaurantee the kill unless the player notices and runs away at the right time. Kill 2-3 queens and you'll not have to worry about dying anytime soon. Behind this warp prism harass, I'm building no stalkers, chrono'ing immortals, building a twilight and +2 attack while placing cannons at my 3rd and walling off. This happens at ~7-8 mintues. My only fear is that in the window that my warp prism is reaching the Zerg's 3rd, there are a swarm of lings killing the probe that is building the cannons at my 3rd BEFORE the cannons have completed. Once the cannons have completed, cannons are so good vs lings that the only thing that can force a cancel of the nexus is roaches (Because the cannons buy you time to move your army/warp in zealots). And if Z is going enough roaches early enough to cancel my nexus he must not have a lot of drones. And while chrono'ing immortals and having the 4 sentries that the standard FFE -> 4gate robo gets you roaches are often a non-issue. A Zealot/Immortal/Sentry composition will eat roaches alive when on defense. Basically the idea is to not build stalkers unless you're planning on killing the Zerg RIGHT NOW! or if you're absolutely forced to i.e. Mutas appeared and you have no cannons+storm or archons. With a 3rd in place, by the time the Stephano Roach/ling comes you've got a bunch of FF, storm nearing completion or already done, 4-5 immortals, ~9 gateways and a decent amount of zealots. With good map structure and Sim City, it's a cakewalk to hold the push with immortal/sentry/zealot + storm. You also get a really really nice timing at ~14-20 mintues depending on the early-game when your templar and sentries both have full energy. You have like 170 supply, ~12 gateways, 6 immortals, 6-8 templar, like ~12-16 storms, 10-16 Forcefields and a warp prism. If Zerg does not have brood lords, with proper micro you'll just flat out win vs anything. If he has broods, rush a mothership and storm the vortex with a few archons in it. Definitely going to try this at some point, sounds pretty fun, getting to harass early game while macroing is something I enjoy when I can pull it off. Thanks dude. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:35 kcdc wrote: Good post. Roach spamming + drop tech should also be considered. I haven't yet seen 3-base roach spam + drop tech in a pro game, but I'm pretty sure that's just because P's haven't shown that they can defend 3-base roach spam w/o drop tech yet. If P's are eventually able to work out clever sim-cities with good forcefield micro at multiple positions simultaneously, Z's will start dropping the main while hitting the third, and the gosu forcefield micro won't be as helpful. Just playing around with fast 3rd builds vs practice partners and I find it is far more effective to be active and aggressive after your 3-base econ really starts rolling because there are a myriad of options that zerg can do and it is much easier attacking with your whole army than defending multiple points of attacks against who knows what. And for this purpose I find just mass blink stalker to be the tech of choice if you were able to get your 3rd down fast enough (like b/w 6-7 mins). Blink stalkers also can defend well enough vs anything he throws at you with proper control except perhaps a straight 3-base tech into infestorling. To me it appears there are really like 2 critical timings vs fast 3rd builds: ~7-8 mins where they power 20 drones, where any pressure here delays them considerably. I think the main thing here is you kind of need to force something to stay roughly even on econ, unless you are comfortable playing significantly behind on econ and playing super defensive with sentries. ~10-12 mins window where you have to hit them to keep their tech (i.e. straight tech into BLs, infestors) timings in check if you weren't able to do it earlier. Past this point and it seems like the point of no return because even if you have the econ you do not have the tech to defend, and the only unit you really have available to you during this window in enough quantities to make a difference is blink stalkers. People keep talking about BLs but I think a straight infestorling timing would wreck 3-base protoss. IT spam is pretty damn good at breaking down walls, sniping nexii, breaking defensive lines, etc. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:37 JASONB0URNE wrote: Great piece, Monk! Thank you. All points are very sensible, in my opinion. Do you still recommend opening FFE/Nexus first? In your post I think the assumed opening was FFE. Can you please talk about upgrades. The roach spam style I have been seeing have double evo upgrades churning for their roaches. What do you recommend, from your experience? Over the weekend I did so many 2 base all in timings and they all fell flat on their face. I would really like to get this three base+ style thought out! FFE/Nexus first seems to be the mostly accepted opening. Zerg usually doesn't have double upgrades when doing the standard roach spam; it's too costly on the gas when you only have 4 gas doing spamming roaches. Upgrades are good and you should definitely have +1, getting +2 if you can. Armor/shields aren't as useful. On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses. In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push. I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack. Small groups of blink stalkers are useless for harass and are easily killed by the spare lings the zerg will no redoubtably have. Warp prism certainly can be an option, though. On April 10 2012 17:18 FGL wrote: I think we should start looking for the most efficient simcity for every third base/position/map similar to how important figuring out simcities for the natural was when forge fe first started becoming popular. Something I'm having troubles with is simcitying the third on cloud kingdom. I think I have to simcity diagonally and use the nexus as apart of the wall since roaches can wrap around the large ramp. I also find it a lot easier to hold my third if I do a complete walloff of the first ramp with the destructible rocks. 2-3 Cannons and 2 sentries can stop potentially game-ending pronged attacks into my natural/surround my units at my third. This way I would only have to worry about full frontal attacks at my third. Yea, this is a good point. Most of the time even pros have terrible sim cities. For example, compare the sim cities used by JYP and Squirtle used on Daybreak in the vods I suggested. Both use the same amount of buildings, but imo Squirtle's is superior. I also like diagonal sim city on Cloud Kingdom, like the kind White-ra used on that map which doesn't involve the nexus. I personally don't like cim cities that involve the nexus, as sometimes the zerg can just sac 10 roaches to get the nexus. @Monk i thought you were also fiddling around with gate-nexus-core openings? I'm working such a type of build, and with playing it absolutely safe ( ie gate-nexus-forge-cannon-core ) i can still get my first warp in cycle up at 7:40, and i bet once i get used to certain timings and scout how many lings he produces i can get it out at 7:30 with +1 done. In essence what i'm saying is that with a earlier timing that you can hit, you can get up a faster third, or delay the roach max since the roach warren already needs to go down at 6 minutes instead of 7 to defend a 7:30 warp in cycle. This is a huge impact on a Z's econ Nope, I haven't been doing gate nexus openings. I actually haven't been playing much lately cause of an accident I had. On April 10 2012 19:56 Ryndika wrote: Isn't it better to get shields against roachspam? You'll be mostly taking shield damage anyway, youll get more beefy cannons and stronger simcity, not sure if shields better for immortals or not (hardened shield last longer). It's only 50/50 more expensive. (and you get +1 attack frirst yes) +2 attack is more useful for immortals and in the long term. On April 10 2012 22:08 Adonminus wrote: I completely agree that you need to make sim cities as best as you can, good sim cities can save you countless amount of times while bad sim sities or a complete lack of sim cities can cost you the game. On some maps you can even completly block an entrance to your 3rd with a sim city, some canons and some sentries. I do not agree on army splitting though, it is already hard to deal with maxed roaches with a non split army. You just need to scout the enemy roaches and position your army accordingly. That's pretty much exactly what I said. On April 11 2012 00:35 daredpanda wrote: For faster thirds, you have to be aware of the things Zerg can do. I did fast third on Cloud Kingdom ~6min and got nydused...mistake on my part xD You don't get fast 3rd bases unless you scout your opponent has a 4:30 third. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:00 Flanq wrote: Definitely going to try this at some point, sounds pretty fun, getting to harass early game while macroing is something I enjoy when I can pull it off. Thanks dude. Well this build itself is based around a gimmick, you have to pick off Queens with Warp Prism Zealots and if your opponent has extra Queens it seems very unsafe. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
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Allred
United States352 Posts
On April 10 2012 22:23 Tingles wrote: There has never been a replay that I've watched that I've honestly said "there's no way I can win vs that" unless I am versing someone with a much higher skill than me. apperently u have never been 3 base vs 3 base pvz on taldarime alter after a scouted muta switch from mass roach and realize u can't defend your third base and your natural. | ||
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McTeazy
Canada297 Posts
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide. If it's not a 2 base all in, it may find some love | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:38 NrGmonk wrote: PvZ, on the other hand, has been lagging behind the TvZ metagame for quite a bit as 2 base all-ins are still by far the most common strategy. Now, I could blame this on a variety of things such as:
The thing you're forgetting is that protoss has no reliable defense against mutalisks. Stimmed marines and missle turrets are both good and thors get the job done if your opponent commits fully to mutalisks. Cannons, blink stalkers, and storm are respectively pretty crappy compared to their terran counterparts. I'll bet if you compiled a whole bunch of replays vs mutas where the protoss tried to hold onto 3 bases the winrate would be abysmal vs if they just 2 based it. Embrace the 2 base. buuut all that being said I've had some success with a strat similar to the Stephano vs White-Ra game. I found it pretty safe to replicate the same opening you would use doing a 1/1 3 immortal push, but only get 4 gates total and drop the 3rd at 8 minutes. White-Ra's build seems to be a lot better than this though. | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
Cheers! On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide. do you have any replays with this by any chance? | ||
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Razultull
United States36 Posts
Monk if you have anything you could add to this style i would greatly appreciate it, here are some of my replays from the mid master ladder. I am sorry i am only mid master but kiwikakki, attero, Noumena and even Oz play a very similar style which means barring my chobo-ness it should work :D . Note that it opens off 2 gate ways instead of 1. The inclusion of a sentry to wall off the main from reinforcements is something i have been meaning to implement. Recent replays: http://drop.sc/157358 http://drop.sc/157357 http://drop.sc/157356 http://drop.sc/154919 http://drop.sc/157355 | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide. Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game. I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it. You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming? | ||
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