[G] PvZ: Macro PvZ and How to Safely Take a Third Background: Recently, Stephano's 11-12 minute roach max has been the central focus of PvZ and every protoss build has to be built around how to deal with this style. 2 of the best zergs in the world, Stephano and DRG, almost exclusive employ one form or another of this build and it is largely because of this standardized build that they hold much more ZvP success than any other Zerg in the world. They are also only 2 zergs who say they are confident in ZvP in interviews, with Stephano even going to claim that ZvP is imbalanced for zerg and that the only way for Protoss to win is to be both tricky and lucky. Even Nestea, the 3rd contender of the best zerg uses this style heavily. The build is basically 2 parts:
Have a solid 3 base macro build that can react to and defend any protoss all-in and come ahead. Every player's macro build is slightly different, but they're all similar and achieve the same infrastructure. This is not "Stephano Style". It is just standard 3 base macro ZvP.
Max on Roach heavy/ling light between 11 and 12 minutes with 4 hatches and 4 gas. Proceed to overrun any attempts by the Protoss to take a 3rd. The timing of the max largely depends on pressure, but for reference, a lower level masters player can max by 12:00 without much pressure while Stephano's record is a 10:50 max. This part is the true "Stephano Style Roach Max", not any build that gets 5 or 6 gas or a spire in the middle of maxing.
This game is an excellent example of this style for anyone who's not familiar with it. In it, the Protoss player does a lot of stuff right, but fails to hold the roach max.
Theory: Similarly to the PvZ situation now, until about a year ago, Terrans too were relying on 2 base timings to deal with zerg. As zergs began learning how to deal with all of the various and numerous timings, Terrans' success with those timings began to drop. However, eventually Terrans learned how to play "greedy" but safe macro builds that allow the Terran to keep up with econ. Two examples of these builds include:
This is the natural progression of a matchup. Once 1 base allins have been figured out, Terrans began transitioning into 2 base all-ins and 2+ base macro play. Onces 2 base allins are figured out, Terrans transitioned into more 3+ base play(I hesitate to call anything 3 base allin, but some game plans are allin off of 3 bases). These 3 cc macro builds are now the standard of how terrans play TvZ.
PvZ, on the other hand, has been lagging behind the TvZ metagame for quite a bit as 2 base all-ins are still by far the most common strategy. Now, I could blame this on a variety of things such as:
The inflexibility of FFE and how Zerg can get a free 3rd.
The fact that Protoss units work better in balls and thus are less effective non all-in pressure. For example, marines, hellions and medivacs work much better individually than sentires/stalkers/immortals.
Nexii can't float like CCs.
Now as Zerg began figuring out all the 2 base all-in timings (and as they figure out the most recent immortal/warp prism all-in), Protoss all-ins will begin to get gimmicky and coin flippy, either relying on your opponent not scouting/recognizing it or relying on him not knowing how to defend. The next logical step is 3 base macro builds.
The problem with current macro PvZ isn't that stalker/colossi can't handle Zerg as well as marine/tank. It's more that Protoss doesn't currently have well-accepted standard solid macro builds that allow them to get enough units to defend a Zerg max. The way Protoss are playing it now, they end up behind if they try to take it to the macro game every time. This is why I suggested faster thirds in order to play a more effective macro game in this thread.
I see the 3 base roach aggression in PvZ as I do the 2 base roach baneling semi all-in in TvZ. It is the main aggression 3 base macro builds have to deal with when they are in their weakest state. Terrans, when adapting to this 2 base aggression, have been forced to tweak their builds to be safe, usually adding either siege tanks or banshees; most other builds are considered risky. The is similar to how the 2 base roach ling aggression from Zerg once limited what Protoss could do off of 3 gate expand and forced a lot of innovations(For example, you could no longer go 3 gate into tech while skimping on units, 1 gate expand into tech into 3 gates was developed as a reaction, and Protoss got much better at controlling versus this push.) In the same token, I believe the 3 base roach aggression will do the same to Protoss. All "safe" macro builds will have to be more refined and very specific; not all types of random Protoss builds into 3rd will work. This will effectively limit Protoss macro options, just as the roach baneling aggression limited safe Terran macro options and the 2 base roach ling aggression limited safe transitions from gateway expands.
General Tips: Anyways, as I have said before, I think the keys to defending a 3 base build against this specific roach aggression include: scouting, sim city, cannons, forcefields, macro, unit composition, and army splitting. Anytime I see a Protoss fall to roach spam, he's always missing a few of these points.
Scouting: A lot of people, even pros, neglect this key point. The thing is pros can, because they can sometimes assume from their opponent what they're going to do. For example, in JYP's recent series versus Stephano, JYP just assumed Stephano would do the same build each game and he was right.
Sim city: When you can put gateways in sim city, you should; they work just as well, if not better than depots as blockers. In many cases, you can make gateways just to sim city even if you don't need them for protection as they can be more useful in defense than cannons or stalkers for the same price. Tails made this mistake of just putting gateways in his main vs Nestea at IPL and just lost when he had to waste all his forcefields to hold roaches at bay. In addition, I think it's ridiculous that every single Protoss has different sim cities on the same map. I wouldn't have a problem with 2, 3, or maybe even 4 different versions, but literally almost every Protoss does something slightly different. People need to figure out what's best, agree to it, and do it. + Show Spoiler +
Something I came up by watching Puzzle and Huk: Instead of trying to sim city your third on certain maps, instead sim city the ramp leading to your natural. Maps this is applicable on include Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, and Atlantis Spaceship(when you take the rich 3rd). On each of these maps, there are problems with sim citying your 3rd for different reasons. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd has 2 entrances to sim. Daybreak's 3rd is relatively wide to fully sim and it doesn't have a ramp so roaches can easily pick off gateways if you try to do it that way. Altantis Spaceship just has an easily accessible rich 3rd you can abuse if you sim the ramp near your natural. So what you do is sim your natural and position your army at your 3rd unless you see a major attack coming from to your natural. Also, you can rally immortals to your natural to act as cannons. This game is a good example of the type of sim I'm talking about.
Cannons: Especially behind sim city, roaches cannot focus fire cannons well. Cannons+ sentries is also a more efficient use of minerals/gas for defense than stalkers
Forcefields: This is just something people have to work on. Every Protoss besides MC I've seen use more forcefields than they have to in a given situation. Protoss in general just need to get better with this basic Protoss skill. Sim city also lessens the amount of forcefields you have to use. You also can devote forcefields into trapping and killing roaches instead of blocking roaches out of your base. One innovation I've seen mostly in PvT, but also PvZ, is getting faster but fewer sentries. Because sentries hardly do damage, getting 6 sentries earlier can equate to the same number of forcefields as 10 sentries later.
Macro: Your opponent has an efficient macro build, that with decent macro, maxes between 11:30 and 12 minutes; you should have good macro build as well, backed by sufficient macro. A good macro build gets your 3rd as fast as possible so that when the roaches do hit, you have the economy to back up your defense. Spending all your money, especially under roach pressure, is just mechanics.
Unit composition: Sentries are the most important unit by far. Voidrays can work, especially when backed up by sim city/forcefieds to allow them to charge; modern Protosses who rely on voidrays to hold off attacks usually get 2. Immortals also obviously work and are the best unit you can make vs roaches. Blink stalkers, on the other hand, aren't as helpful if you're relying on primarily sim city/forcefields/cannons to defend. This doesn't mean they're bad, as you usually need them to defend possible mutas if you didn't open stargate.
Army splitting: As you're defending 2 positions, you will need to split your army into 2 parts. There are a few things you can do to more efficiently and correctly place your troops. First is scouting. An obs/voidray/phoenix/hallucination in the area outside your base between your natural/3rd. Your sim city also allows you to delay the roaches, allowing you to reposition units.
Actual Builds: Now for some successful builds: The following are the most successful and solid macro PvZ builds I’ve seen in the last few months gathered from every broadcast PvZ. They’re also the macro builds that I use. The builds are from my personal notes, so they might be a bit messy. I've also included benchmarks, because I've become really into those recently.
Puzzle’s fast robo into 9:30 3rd A simple robo expand with fast observers that feigns an immortal all-in but expands behind it. In contrast to a fast third, this build gets more immortals and fewer but faster sentries for an extremely efficient roach defense. Puzzle gets 2 obs, one to scout zerg's tech and one positioned outside his bases to correctly split his army when the roach max comes. Susceptible to being blind countered by people who go blind 3 base muta without accounting for the all-in. Build:+ Show Spoiler +
3:18 gateway 3:55, 3:58 gas-20 supply 2nd game 4:05 5:12 +1 5:37 wg, sentry, sentry, sentry, sentry 6:15 2 gas 6:20 robo-2 obs, rest immortal 7:20 3 gates 7:55 2 gates 8:25 wgs finish up to 6 sentry 9:30 3rd 10:20 twilight 10:30 3 gates in sim + Show Spoiler +
Game 1: Puzzle vs True: Shows a game versus a traditional roach max and how easy it is to win after you’ve defended the push efficiently.
Game 2: Puzzle vs True: Versus a roach/hydra push on a big map. Shows a colossi transition versus hydra.
Puzzle/Squirtle’s 4 gate pressure into robo into 10:10 3rd Continuous pressure build that puts up multiple threats before expanding to force units. Pressure consists of 2 zealot poke, 4 gate +1 threat, and a gateway all-in threat. Build:+ Show Spoiler +
3:15 gate 4:20 core 4:50 2 zealot(2 cb), sentry, sentry 5:30 +1, +1 armor after 6:30 3 gates 7:30 2 gas 7:45 robo-1 obs rest immortal 4 sentry, 2 zealot/2 stalker, rest all stalker 9:20 2 gates 9:35 twilight, +2, blink after 10:10 3rd 11:20 2 gates in sim + Show Spoiler +
Game 1: Puzzle vs Lucky: This game is versus a weaker 6 gas roach max into mutas. It shows the most likely transition into templar.
Game 2: Squirtle vs Nestea: Versus a traditional roach max. One of the most interesting things about this game was Squirtle's use of his one observer. He uses it to accomplish 2 things I've mentioned previously. After confirming the roach max style, he doesn't leave the observer in Nestea's base like most protoss would. Instead, he immediately sends it back to just right outside his base for an effective scout that lets him correctly split his army. This is the hardest working and most purposeful observer I've ever seen.
Hero’s stargate into fast robo into 10:20 3rd This is a stargate opening that is extremely focused on defending the roach max. Gets 2 voids on smaller maps and rushes an extremely fast robo for a higher immortal count. The 2 voids, phoenix, high immortal count, and low stalker count all go very far into stopping a roach max. Also gets lots of phoenix to keep you safe versus a muta transition. However, it’s slightly weaker versus hydra based pushes on smaller maps and doesn’t allow for as strong a 170ish food push. It also more forces you to head for a colossi transition instead of templar transition versus the other builds, which are more flexible. Build:+ Show Spoiler +
gateway-zealot, stalker, zealot, sentry 5:30 stargate-voidray or 2, 7:30-5 pheonix 6:45 3rd gas 7:10 robo-1 obs, rest immortal 7:50 +1 7:50 4th gas 8:25 3 gates 10:20 3rd ideally 10:50 2 gates + Show Spoiler +
Game 1: Hero vs Stephano: Gets 1 voidray, because the map is huge. Shows how careful you have to be when expanding early with this build.
Game 2: Hero vs Stephano: Gets 2 voidrays, because of the short rush distance. Unfortunately, Hero forgets warpgates in this game. =(
A note on fast 3rd builds: While I still believe that fast 3rd builds(6:30-9 minutes)might be possible, there just hasn't been any really solid, standard fast 3rd builds at an extremely high level, which explains the lack of fast 3rd builds in this guide. I also personally have had more success with the previous builds. A delayed 3rd lets you get a higher immortal count and faster sentries for more energy, so you don't have to get as many sentries. I've personally come to the conclusion that these two factors, along with the threat of a 2 base attack, might be more important both overall and in a roach defense than the extra income you might get from the faster 3rd, which can only be invested into cannons, gateways, stalkers, or more sentries with fewer energy each.
are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc?
some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example)
Great post, as a Zerg I often wonder why Protoss players do not try to evolve the meta game beyond the standard FFE / 2 base timing attacks that have become so predictable.
The Squirtle vs Nestea Game on Daybreak is a particularly good example- he breaks some of the cardinal rules of protoss and still wins. - He splits his army into 2 groups (gadzooks! what an idea) - He takes a fast 3rd against Z (Oh noes!) - No Colossi (Dear me!)
This deadly roach push is shut down if the protoss gets a significant number of immortals. I'm not saying its easy to do what squirtle did (He has basically perfect scouting, sim city, cannons, forcefields, and macro) but its doable and I'm surprised more toss don't even make the attempt.
On April 10 2012 08:46 thrawn2112 wrote: are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc?
some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example)
Yes, that's kind of what I'm saying. As I referenced above, I like to think of 3 base roach as a very sharp timing, very similar to 2 base roach ling and roach baneling in ZvT or roach ling allin vs 3 gate expand in ZvP. At first, these builds had very high win rates, with T/P confounded. I remember the Slayers Terrans at IPL3 talking each other in the booths trying to figure out what to do as Lucky took them all out one by one with roach ling allins. Eventually, this forced the non Z races to tweak their builds so that they would be safe versus these very specific all-ins at very specific timings. Imo Protoss just has the adjust their 3 base expansion builds so that they're safe versus this 12 minute push and then figure out 3+ base macro play from there.
An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
Great thread already, awesome OP. I'm not at a level of play or understanding where I'm comfortable contributing, but I'm going to stop 2-base all-ining and start playing macro PvZ again.
I like the OP so far. It does raise a question for me: do you think we'll keep going FFE into a third, or will other expand builds have to be smoothed out? Personally I think the FFE does you no favors towards your third as you invest so much early game into Forge wall-off + cannons, and it does bugger-all to help you when it's time for the third.
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off. It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent. Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning. That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
Thanks for the Thread. You mention interesting ideas. But tbh i've watched a lot of progamers streams in the last couple of weeks and imho, pvz is a bit off right now because of this mass roach style. A lot of those progamers im talking about HAVE IN FACT been trying to do most of the things u r saying above - like scouting and so on and so forth - but STILL it is not enough.
You gave (one of the) games of WhiteRa vs. Stephano, but yet WhiteRa HIMSELF is one of the progamers im talking about... he says that it is not balanced and that this mass roach style kills u if u dont do some kind of allin... basically it kills you, if you do what is suggested in this thread (macro style play) [Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UBSIrpHHbkE]
To clarify: i myself am really trying to do what u r saying above, but it JUST works if the zerg doesnt play that style or plays too passive. IF he executes everything perfectly (max at bout 12 mins and attacks ur third) it is RIDICULOUSLY hard to hold it and even if u do u find 100000 roaches are coming behind it so that in the end, the old rule of war remains: "numbers >> bravery" lol
and another point i wanna mention is that we casual gamers (masters or lower) cannot really be judges of that, because we ourselves + our opponents are just too "variable" - now i might win all my PvZs against this style, but it is because my opponent is too bad etc... what we need are the PROGAMERS to tell us what they think, they have the most practice and they have the most insight... we could (and always do here) ramble on about what we think but imho only what progamers think really counts!
and too many Protoss pro-gamers right now are saying that pvz is imbalanced, which is good enough for me to accept (exactly like the time the infestors got buffed around may 2011 - same thing: most P progamers did agree that its imba -> change came a couple of weeks later). i think its the same situation now.
In my experience as a Zerg player, a lot of Protoss players try and do a 2base timing attack 6gate/7gate Blink/5gate robo/etc, but instead of committing to the all-in, just make units and try and take a third. And in my experience, this is a free win.
So in essence I think the points you make are absolutely correct. If you want to play a macro PvZ you need a build specifically tailored for a fast third, otherwise you are dependent on killing my third and a lot of workers to expand safely after a 2base timing.
There is simply no way to hold a 3base max Zerg with just Blink Stalkers and Immortals. You need a lot of sentries, and gateway/cannon walls at your third.
All points are very sensible, in my opinion. Do you still recommend opening FFE/Nexus first? In your post I think the assumed opening was FFE.
Can you please talk about upgrades. The roach spam style I have been seeing have double evo upgrades churning for their roaches. What do you recommend, from your experience?
Over the weekend I did so many 2 base all in timings and they all fell flat on their face. I would really like to get this three base+ style thought out!
I agree with Hashmeister, builds like this can only be done when the conditions are perfect (such as you know exactly what he is doing, how the map looks like and so on..)
I am a mid-toss on EU server and I've been experimenting with similar builds for a while now with practice partners and I seriously doubt that this is the future for pvz.
I like the way grubby is playing nowadays with his stargate/robo style but it's nothing new. Something has to be done for this from blizzard imo because I honestly don't see a solid way of stopping this.. just listen to the pros complaining, it's not like they are not trying hard enough.
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off. It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent. Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning. That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.
Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off. It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent. Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning. That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.
Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race
Sorry it came across that way, but that wasn't the argument i was making ^_^ I completely agree with you. But what i am saying is that there are certain strategies that are alot easier to execute than vs what is required to defend it. Muta ling in pvz, 1-1-1, 4gate ( not so much anymore, but back in the day ), colossus voidray deathball on 2base ( same deal ) are examples of this IMO. But the mutli pronged style DOES require you to have pretty good mechanics ... there isn't a way around that. You can do multi pronged crazy attacks all you want, but when your attack ends and you haven't macro'd at home, and the Zerg has a surplus of units ( which WILL happen ), then your just going to die to a counter. Not playing the OP card ... i don't think mass roach style is imba. Just needs to be worked out ... and for a while PvZ is gonna suck ... Just like it did vs Mass Muta not so long ago ^_^
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off. It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent. Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning. That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.
Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race
Sorry it came across that way, but that wasn't the argument i was making ^_^ I completely agree with you. But what i am saying is that there are certain strategies that are alot easier to execute than vs what is required to defend it. Muta ling in pvz, 1-1-1, 4gate ( not so much anymore, but back in the day ), colossus voidray deathball on 2base ( same deal ) are examples of this IMO. But the mutli pronged style DOES require you to have pretty good mechanics ... there isn't a way around that. You can do multi pronged crazy attacks all you want, but when your attack ends and you haven't macro'd at home, and the Zerg has a surplus of units ( which WILL happen ), then your just going to die to a counter. Not playing the OP card ... i don't think mass roach style is imba. Just needs to be worked out ... and for a while PvZ is gonna suck ... Just like it did vs Mass Muta not so long ago ^_^
i can agree with that especially since i know how that feels for protoss. it may be op now but lets see what comes up. i feel like you're the first person to approach balance rationally from what iv seen. i love it lol.
i really hope more people just learn to admit their mistakes. as a zerg why do people complain so much? as a zerg micro matters just as other races but why even complain? people wont see it your way. tosses and terrans are complaining but without people being at least in top master its hard to accept the QQ. every loss to me is attributable to my lack of skill but idk why people dont admit it.
im gonna keep playing zerg and win or lose fuck it. zerg is the race that i enjoy so screw win ratio's. from 5 rax reaper to now zerg is the best imo and i will stick with it agree or not, people need to love their own race
I think we should start looking for the most efficient simcity for every third base/position/map similar to how important figuring out simcities for the natural was when forge fe first started becoming popular.
Something I'm having troubles with is simcitying the third on cloud kingdom. I think I have to simcity diagonally and use the nexus as apart of the wall since roaches can wrap around the large ramp. I also find it a lot easier to hold my third if I do a complete walloff of the first ramp with the destructible rocks. 2-3 Cannons and 2 sentries can stop potentially game-ending pronged attacks into my natural/surround my units at my third. This way I would only have to worry about full frontal attacks at my third.
Glad to see this. Since I've been taking fast 3rds, I've improved my army splitting and FFing. I'm a fan of the White-Ra style though I have died to slow lings on an occasion where the Z saw me drop the 3rd.
i am only in high diamond/low master protoss but i win like 80% if my games against the zerg with 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure. Behind that i take my third/ add 2 more gateways a robo and a twilightcouncil. and usually im able to defend with stalker centry voidray and 1 immortal.
On April 10 2012 18:07 ahmyyyyd wrote: i am only in high diamond/low master protoss but i win like 80% if my games against the zerg with 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure. Behind that i take my third/ add 2 more gateways a robo and a twilightcouncil. and usually im able to defend with stalker centry voidray and 1 immortal.
but yeah only low master niveau^^
Yeah this push can be very deadly if the zerg doesn't scout it. Once you hit mid to high masters zergs know exactly what to scout for. the voidray zealot push for example is chrono on core, forge getting +1 and you have 1 voidray out and a second one in production. Once the zerg sees this specific set of buildings/units/chrono usage they know what's up and can defend it with 5 roaches ( yes 5 roaches!), 2 queens and 1 spore.
I still use the timing from time to time, to mix it up on ladder or in a BoX series, but usually doesn't kill the third base. If i'm transitioning well afterwards i do have a nice void/stalker/sentry/immo ball to defend my third, but it can be hard to defend roach hydra all ins.
@Monk i thought you were also fiddling around with gate-nexus-core openings?
I'm working such a type of build, and with playing it absolutely safe ( ie gate-nexus-forge-cannon-core ) i can still get my first warp in cycle up at 7:40, and i bet once i get used to certain timings and scout how many lings he produces i can get it out at 7:30 with +1 done.
In essence what i'm saying is that with a earlier timing that you can hit, you can get up a faster third, or delay the roach max since the roach warren already needs to go down at 6 minutes instead of 7 to defend a 7:30 warp in cycle. This is a huge impact on a Z's econ
Isn't it better to get shields against roachspam? You'll be mostly taking shield damage anyway, youll get more beefy cannons and stronger simcity, not sure if shields better for immortals or not (hardened shield last longer). It's only 50/50 more expensive. (and you get +1 attack frirst yes)
I completely agree that you need to make sim cities as best as you can, good sim cities can save you countless amount of times while bad sim sities or a complete lack of sim cities can cost you the game. On some maps you can even completly block an entrance to your 3rd with a sim city, some canons and some sentries.
I do not agree on army splitting though, it is already hard to deal with maxed roaches with a non split army. You just need to scout the enemy roaches and position your army accordingly.
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off. It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent. Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning. That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.
Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race
Sorry it came across that way, but that wasn't the argument i was making ^_^ I completely agree with you. But what i am saying is that there are certain strategies that are alot easier to execute than vs what is required to defend it. Muta ling in pvz, 1-1-1, 4gate ( not so much anymore, but back in the day ), colossus voidray deathball on 2base ( same deal ) are examples of this IMO. But the mutli pronged style DOES require you to have pretty good mechanics ... there isn't a way around that. You can do multi pronged crazy attacks all you want, but when your attack ends and you haven't macro'd at home, and the Zerg has a surplus of units ( which WILL happen ), then your just going to die to a counter. Not playing the OP card ... i don't think mass roach style is imba. Just needs to be worked out ... and for a while PvZ is gonna suck ... Just like it did vs Mass Muta not so long ago ^_^
i can agree with that especially since i know how that feels for protoss. it may be op now but lets see what comes up. i feel like you're the first person to approach balance rationally from what iv seen. i love it lol.
i really hope more people just learn to admit their mistakes. as a zerg why do people complain so much? as a zerg micro matters just as other races but why even complain? people wont see it your way. tosses and terrans are complaining but without people being at least in top master its hard to accept the QQ. every loss to me is attributable to my lack of skill but idk why people dont admit it.
im gonna keep playing zerg and win or lose fuck it. zerg is the race that i enjoy so screw win ratio's. from 5 rax reaper to now zerg is the best imo and i will stick with it agree or not, people need to love their own race
Unfortunately that shit wont fly in real life =P People need an excuse other than their shitty play as to why they lost. Of course when I'm rage laddering I'm thinking "that was so herp derp 1a HURRR your race is a joke" ... but I know it's not. I actually play better knowing straight away that when I've lost, I've got mistakes to fix. And low and behold, checking a replay yeilds exactly what I thought. Mistakes. There has never been a replay that I've watched that I've honestly said "there's no way I can win vs that" unless I am versing someone with a much higher skill than me. Back on topic though, at my level ( plat / dia ) it's not so unforgiving against the mass roach style. It is winnable because the Zerg isn't going to execute perfectly. I've been thinking that perhaps a way to stop it might be to go stargate off FFE with like 7 phoenix and your entire goal is to snipe queens ... would severely hurt the production of the zerg and force them to earn their lava injects. Again, I doubt it's relevant at Master / GM level, but it's something I might have a go at if i get to frustrated. P.S. also agree about sticking with the race you like ... i find Zerg much easier that Protoss, but i like Protoss more =P
A lot of the posts above don't even really apply to the macro style of fast thirds in PvZ. Let's keep it on topic.
I wanted to bring a few points from the other thread over here. There are actually a number of fast builds which can be thought of as things we need to scout and have answers for - though the 3-base roach spam is by far the fastest.
On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens:
standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish
~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e
10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though.
what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run
12:30 with hydra/roach/ling and even 4 spores is quite fast, makes you wonder what a perfectly executed pure roach maxout could be if done perfectly. 10:20?
I can't recall ever maxing out with Roaches before 11 Minutes...but I'm going to try right now!
In age of empires series there used to these perfect build order competitions from time to time and the winning time was always much faster then you expected. Of course you do have to play at super slow to manage the perfect time.
Fastest max out would probably be something like 3 queens 3 hatches, 45-50 ish drones and only lings not getting any tech but that's a bit lame. With the rules that you need to go pool before hatch, get 2 sets of lings when pool finishes, finish lair around 8:00 and go roaches + have an evo chamber the fastest time is probably going to be around 10 mins I think but you'll have to play really well.
ok let's see how fast we can get roach speed, +1 and max roach! 2 lings when pool is done is a requirement! no spores either, cause fuck'em that's why.
edit: use cloud kingdom i guess? got just over 11 minutes but i got gas starved pretty bad close to the end so will make an adjustment and see what happens
ye i think rules should be: cloud kingdom pool before hatch 2 lings when pool is done roach warren and evo before 7min, lair before 8min, +1 ranged attack and roach speed done before max out
I'm terrible at zerg but gave it a shot anyways and managed only 11:40 so i think something like 9:50 is probably doable if you're near flawless.
edit: perfect solution will probably include a macro hatch, with 3 hatches you need an extra overlord because otherwise you have 198/198 so 4th hatch will probably barely be worth it.
just got 198/198 10:54 with lair started at 7 mins warren and evo starting at 7:20, +1 and roach speed started as soon as those buildings finished. should go with standard gas first 2 gas timings at 40-45 food imo, but lately zergs have been delaying these a bit more so but we'll play by the book i don't think a macro hatch is necessary 10:50 was the best i could get. i think only way down from there is actually being a robot. i'm doing my best do be a robot but i'm not quite there yet tt
You're reading this right. He was more or less maxxed at 10:50 on +1 speed roaches. Looking back at the builds in the OP, doing this will require that you will need to play from a position of being down something like (at 11 minutes) 140 supply of roaches vs. 40 supply of protoss units from the above builds. You need to play this very, very well, but that isn't all you need to worry about.
On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens:
standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish
~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e
10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though.
what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run
This build could potentially mean that your simcity and air units are in danger. Here again, you're looking at 50-70 supply of protoss units vs. 62 supply of lings, 56 supply of hydra, and 16 supply of roaches. If you rely only on FFs/Simcity, you will need to have colossi out if hydras are coming before this time - this is too much for a gateway/immortal army to withstand.
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote: In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?
Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.
I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.
He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.
The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny
There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..
Provided you have contingency plans for the two above builds, here's another thing to react to. This probably isn't the type of thing you'll be able to 3-base timing push away (since timing pushes on spines/lings/infestors before 14 minutes seem difficult to make).
And of course we didn't mention 3-base muta, which hits somewhere in the 11 minute range.
I think you're getting the idea, though, fast 3-base builds are necessarily going to need to be able to scout and react to a ton of different builds getting rolling before 15 minutes.
On April 05 2012 08:09 mumpfel wrote: Stop talking about PvP. This threat is about PvZ and even blue posters should stick to the topic.
puppies
Once again, though, let's keep it constructive and on topic. It's easy to be daunted by the obstructions to a build of this type, but let's not do that - and let's not let destructive thinking sidetrack us.
On April 10 2012 23:56 Treehead wrote: A lot of the posts above don't even really apply to the macro style of fast thirds in PvZ. Let's keep it on topic.
I wanted to bring a few points from the other thread over here. There are actually a number of fast builds which can be thought of as things we need to scout and have answers for - though the 3-base roach spam is by far the fastest.
On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens:
standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish
~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e
10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though.
what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run
12:30 with hydra/roach/ling and even 4 spores is quite fast, makes you wonder what a perfectly executed pure roach maxout could be if done perfectly. 10:20?
I can't recall ever maxing out with Roaches before 11 Minutes...but I'm going to try right now!
In age of empires series there used to these perfect build order competitions from time to time and the winning time was always much faster then you expected. Of course you do have to play at super slow to manage the perfect time.
Fastest max out would probably be something like 3 queens 3 hatches, 45-50 ish drones and only lings not getting any tech but that's a bit lame. With the rules that you need to go pool before hatch, get 2 sets of lings when pool finishes, finish lair around 8:00 and go roaches + have an evo chamber the fastest time is probably going to be around 10 mins I think but you'll have to play really well.
ok let's see how fast we can get roach speed, +1 and max roach! 2 lings when pool is done is a requirement! no spores either, cause fuck'em that's why.
edit: use cloud kingdom i guess? got just over 11 minutes but i got gas starved pretty bad close to the end so will make an adjustment and see what happens
ye i think rules should be: cloud kingdom pool before hatch 2 lings when pool is done roach warren and evo before 7min, lair before 8min, +1 ranged attack and roach speed done before max out
I'm terrible at zerg but gave it a shot anyways and managed only 11:40 so i think something like 9:50 is probably doable if you're near flawless.
edit: perfect solution will probably include a macro hatch, with 3 hatches you need an extra overlord because otherwise you have 198/198 so 4th hatch will probably barely be worth it.
just got 198/198 10:54 with lair started at 7 mins warren and evo starting at 7:20, +1 and roach speed started as soon as those buildings finished. should go with standard gas first 2 gas timings at 40-45 food imo, but lately zergs have been delaying these a bit more so but we'll play by the book i don't think a macro hatch is necessary 10:50 was the best i could get. i think only way down from there is actually being a robot. i'm doing my best do be a robot but i'm not quite there yet tt
You're reading this right. He was more or less maxxed at 10:50 on +1 speed roaches. Looking back at the builds in the OP, doing this will require that you will need to play from a position of being down something like (at 11 minutes) 140 supply of roaches vs. 40 supply of protoss units from the above builds. You need to play this very, very well, but that isn't all you need to worry about.
On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens:
standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish
~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e
10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though.
what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run
This build could potentially mean that your simcity and air units are in danger. Here again, you're looking at 50-70 supply of protoss units vs. 62 supply of lings, 56 supply of hydra, and 16 supply of roaches. If you rely only on FFs/Simcity, you will need to have colossi out if hydras are coming before this time - this is too much for a gateway/immortal army to withstand.
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote: In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?
Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.
I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.
He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.
The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny
There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..
Provided you have contingency plans for the two above builds, here's another thing to react to. This probably isn't the type of thing you'll be able to 3-base timing push away (since timing pushes on spines/lings/infestors before 14 minutes seem difficult to make).
And of course we didn't mention 3-base muta, which hits somewhere in the 11 minute range.
I think you're getting the idea, though, fast 3-base builds are necessarily going to need to be able to scout and react to a ton of different builds getting rolling before 15 minutes.
On April 05 2012 08:09 mumpfel wrote: Stop talking about PvP. This threat is about PvZ and even blue posters should stick to the topic.
puppies
Once again, though, let's keep it constructive and on topic. It's easy to be daunted by the obstructions to a build of this type, but let's not do that - and let's not let destructive thinking sidetrack us.
Good post. Roach spamming + drop tech should also be considered. I haven't yet seen 3-base roach spam + drop tech in a pro game, but I'm pretty sure that's just because P's haven't shown that they can defend 3-base roach spam w/o drop tech yet. If P's are eventually able to work out clever sim-cities with good forcefield micro at multiple positions simultaneously, Z's will start dropping the main while hitting the third, and the gosu forcefield micro won't be as helpful.
I've always wondered why PvZ has devolved into all of these 2base plays. It's rather frustrating for me because I've always thought that a Turtle-Toss is better than anything Protoss can do off 2 bases. I've personally been playing around with a standard FFE -> 4gate Robo then loading up 4 zealots in a warp prism and sniping queens with it. If you drop zealots while the warp prism is moving, you can surround the queen with the 4 zealots and gaurantee the kill unless the player notices and runs away at the right time. Kill 2-3 queens and you'll not have to worry about dying anytime soon.
Behind this warp prism harass, I'm building no stalkers, chrono'ing immortals, building a twilight and +2 attack while placing cannons at my 3rd and walling off. This happens at ~7-8 mintues. My only fear is that in the window that my warp prism is reaching the Zerg's 3rd, there are a swarm of lings killing the probe that is building the cannons at my 3rd BEFORE the cannons have completed. Once the cannons have completed, cannons are so good vs lings that the only thing that can force a cancel of the nexus is roaches (Because the cannons buy you time to move your army/warp in zealots). And if Z is going enough roaches early enough to cancel my nexus he must not have a lot of drones. And while chrono'ing immortals and having the 4 sentries that the standard FFE -> 4gate robo gets you roaches are often a non-issue. A Zealot/Immortal/Sentry composition will eat roaches alive when on defense.
Basically the idea is to not build stalkers unless you're planning on killing the Zerg RIGHT NOW! or if you're absolutely forced to i.e. Mutas appeared and you have no cannons+storm or archons.
With a 3rd in place, by the time the Stephano Roach/ling comes you've got a bunch of FF, storm nearing completion or already done, 4-5 immortals, ~9 gateways and a decent amount of zealots. With good map structure and Sim City, it's a cakewalk to hold the push with immortal/sentry/zealot + storm. You also get a really really nice timing at ~14-20 mintues depending on the early-game when your templar and sentries both have full energy. You have like 170 supply, ~12 gateways, 6 immortals, 6-8 templar, like ~12-16 storms, 10-16 Forcefields and a warp prism. If Zerg does not have brood lords, with proper micro you'll just flat out win vs anything. If he has broods, rush a mothership and storm the vortex with a few archons in it.
On April 11 2012 01:51 DarkblueRH wrote: I've always wondered why PvZ has devolved into all of these 2base plays. It's rather frustrating for me because I've always thought that a Turtle-Toss is better than anything Protoss can do off 2 bases. I've personally been playing around with a standard FFE -> 4gate Robo then loading up 4 zealots in a warp prism and sniping queens with it. If you drop zealots while the warp prism is moving, you can surround the queen with the 4 zealots and gaurantee the kill unless the player notices and runs away at the right time. Kill 2-3 queens and you'll not have to worry about dying anytime soon.
Behind this warp prism harass, I'm building no stalkers, chrono'ing immortals, building a twilight and +2 attack while placing cannons at my 3rd and walling off. This happens at ~7-8 mintues. My only fear is that in the window that my warp prism is reaching the Zerg's 3rd, there are a swarm of lings killing the probe that is building the cannons at my 3rd BEFORE the cannons have completed. Once the cannons have completed, cannons are so good vs lings that the only thing that can force a cancel of the nexus is roaches (Because the cannons buy you time to move your army/warp in zealots). And if Z is going enough roaches early enough to cancel my nexus he must not have a lot of drones. And while chrono'ing immortals and having the 4 sentries that the standard FFE -> 4gate robo gets you roaches are often a non-issue. A Zealot/Immortal/Sentry composition will eat roaches alive when on defense.
Basically the idea is to not build stalkers unless you're planning on killing the Zerg RIGHT NOW! or if you're absolutely forced to i.e. Mutas appeared and you have no cannons+storm or archons.
With a 3rd in place, by the time the Stephano Roach/ling comes you've got a bunch of FF, storm nearing completion or already done, 4-5 immortals, ~9 gateways and a decent amount of zealots. With good map structure and Sim City, it's a cakewalk to hold the push with immortal/sentry/zealot + storm. You also get a really really nice timing at ~14-20 mintues depending on the early-game when your templar and sentries both have full energy. You have like 170 supply, ~12 gateways, 6 immortals, 6-8 templar, like ~12-16 storms, 10-16 Forcefields and a warp prism. If Zerg does not have brood lords, with proper micro you'll just flat out win vs anything. If he has broods, rush a mothership and storm the vortex with a few archons in it.
Definitely going to try this at some point, sounds pretty fun, getting to harass early game while macroing is something I enjoy when I can pull it off.
On April 10 2012 23:56 Treehead wrote: A lot of the posts above don't even really apply to the macro style of fast thirds in PvZ. Let's keep it on topic.
I wanted to bring a few points from the other thread over here. There are actually a number of fast builds which can be thought of as things we need to scout and have answers for - though the 3-base roach spam is by far the fastest.
On April 04 2012 07:32 Alejandrisha wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:21 Markwerf wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:09 Alejandrisha wrote:
On April 04 2012 07:04 Markwerf wrote:
On April 04 2012 06:45 TangSC wrote:
On April 04 2012 06:39 Markwerf wrote:
On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens:
standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish
~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e
10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though.
what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run
12:30 with hydra/roach/ling and even 4 spores is quite fast, makes you wonder what a perfectly executed pure roach maxout could be if done perfectly. 10:20?
I can't recall ever maxing out with Roaches before 11 Minutes...but I'm going to try right now!
In age of empires series there used to these perfect build order competitions from time to time and the winning time was always much faster then you expected. Of course you do have to play at super slow to manage the perfect time.
Fastest max out would probably be something like 3 queens 3 hatches, 45-50 ish drones and only lings not getting any tech but that's a bit lame. With the rules that you need to go pool before hatch, get 2 sets of lings when pool finishes, finish lair around 8:00 and go roaches + have an evo chamber the fastest time is probably going to be around 10 mins I think but you'll have to play really well.
ok let's see how fast we can get roach speed, +1 and max roach! 2 lings when pool is done is a requirement! no spores either, cause fuck'em that's why.
edit: use cloud kingdom i guess? got just over 11 minutes but i got gas starved pretty bad close to the end so will make an adjustment and see what happens
ye i think rules should be: cloud kingdom pool before hatch 2 lings when pool is done roach warren and evo before 7min, lair before 8min, +1 ranged attack and roach speed done before max out
I'm terrible at zerg but gave it a shot anyways and managed only 11:40 so i think something like 9:50 is probably doable if you're near flawless.
edit: perfect solution will probably include a macro hatch, with 3 hatches you need an extra overlord because otherwise you have 198/198 so 4th hatch will probably barely be worth it.
just got 198/198 10:54 with lair started at 7 mins warren and evo starting at 7:20, +1 and roach speed started as soon as those buildings finished. should go with standard gas first 2 gas timings at 40-45 food imo, but lately zergs have been delaying these a bit more so but we'll play by the book i don't think a macro hatch is necessary 10:50 was the best i could get. i think only way down from there is actually being a robot. i'm doing my best do be a robot but i'm not quite there yet tt
You're reading this right. He was more or less maxxed at 10:50 on +1 speed roaches. Looking back at the builds in the OP, doing this will require that you will need to play from a position of being down something like (at 11 minutes) 140 supply of roaches vs. 40 supply of protoss units from the above builds. You need to play this very, very well, but that isn't all you need to worry about.
On April 04 2012 03:42 Alejandrisha wrote: while this isn't pure roach i played hyun and he did a roach/ling hydra thing.. replicated it vs ai and here's what happens:
standard 14/16 3rd hatch at 21ish
~16 lings at 7:30 for safety 5-8 safety roaches shortly after made 4 spores to simulate sg w/e
10:00 - 8 roaches 30 speed lings are at P 3rd base +1 range finishes at 10:50 11:00 - 8 speed roaches 7 range hydras 60 speed lings at p 3rd base 12:00 - 8 speed roaches 19 range hydra 106 speed lings 12:30 maxed. 8 speed roaches 28 range hydra 124 speed lings (4 of the hydras and 12 of the lings haven't quite hatched, though.
what to do O_O edit: 2 gases standard timing then 2nd 2 are taken at about 60 food. 58 drones in this run
This build could potentially mean that your simcity and air units are in danger. Here again, you're looking at 50-70 supply of protoss units vs. 62 supply of lings, 56 supply of hydra, and 16 supply of roaches. If you rely only on FFs/Simcity, you will need to have colossi out if hydras are coming before this time - this is too much for a gateway/immortal army to withstand.
On March 28 2012 18:25 Nyast wrote:
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote: In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?
Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.
I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.
He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.
The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny
There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..
Provided you have contingency plans for the two above builds, here's another thing to react to. This probably isn't the type of thing you'll be able to 3-base timing push away (since timing pushes on spines/lings/infestors before 14 minutes seem difficult to make).
And of course we didn't mention 3-base muta, which hits somewhere in the 11 minute range.
I think you're getting the idea, though, fast 3-base builds are necessarily going to need to be able to scout and react to a ton of different builds getting rolling before 15 minutes.
On April 05 2012 09:26 NrGmonk wrote:
On April 05 2012 08:09 mumpfel wrote: Stop talking about PvP. This threat is about PvZ and even blue posters should stick to the topic.
puppies
Once again, though, let's keep it constructive and on topic. It's easy to be daunted by the obstructions to a build of this type, but let's not do that - and let's not let destructive thinking sidetrack us.
Good post. Roach spamming + drop tech should also be considered. I haven't yet seen 3-base roach spam + drop tech in a pro game, but I'm pretty sure that's just because P's haven't shown that they can defend 3-base roach spam w/o drop tech yet. If P's are eventually able to work out clever sim-cities with good forcefield micro at multiple positions simultaneously, Z's will start dropping the main while hitting the third, and the gosu forcefield micro won't be as helpful.
Just playing around with fast 3rd builds vs practice partners and I find it is far more effective to be active and aggressive after your 3-base econ really starts rolling because there are a myriad of options that zerg can do and it is much easier attacking with your whole army than defending multiple points of attacks against who knows what. And for this purpose I find just mass blink stalker to be the tech of choice if you were able to get your 3rd down fast enough (like b/w 6-7 mins). Blink stalkers also can defend well enough vs anything he throws at you with proper control except perhaps a straight 3-base tech into infestorling.
To me it appears there are really like 2 critical timings vs fast 3rd builds: ~7-8 mins where they power 20 drones, where any pressure here delays them considerably. I think the main thing here is you kind of need to force something to stay roughly even on econ, unless you are comfortable playing significantly behind on econ and playing super defensive with sentries. ~10-12 mins window where you have to hit them to keep their tech (i.e. straight tech into BLs, infestors) timings in check if you weren't able to do it earlier. Past this point and it seems like the point of no return because even if you have the econ you do not have the tech to defend, and the only unit you really have available to you during this window in enough quantities to make a difference is blink stalkers. People keep talking about BLs but I think a straight infestorling timing would wreck 3-base protoss. IT spam is pretty damn good at breaking down walls, sniping nexii, breaking defensive lines, etc.
On April 10 2012 14:37 JASONB0URNE wrote: Great piece, Monk! Thank you.
All points are very sensible, in my opinion. Do you still recommend opening FFE/Nexus first? In your post I think the assumed opening was FFE.
Can you please talk about upgrades. The roach spam style I have been seeing have double evo upgrades churning for their roaches. What do you recommend, from your experience?
Over the weekend I did so many 2 base all in timings and they all fell flat on their face. I would really like to get this three base+ style thought out!
FFE/Nexus first seems to be the mostly accepted opening. Zerg usually doesn't have double upgrades when doing the standard roach spam; it's too costly on the gas when you only have 4 gas doing spamming roaches. Upgrades are good and you should definitely have +1, getting +2 if you can. Armor/shields aren't as useful.
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
Small groups of blink stalkers are useless for harass and are easily killed by the spare lings the zerg will no redoubtably have. Warp prism certainly can be an option, though.
On April 10 2012 17:18 FGL wrote: I think we should start looking for the most efficient simcity for every third base/position/map similar to how important figuring out simcities for the natural was when forge fe first started becoming popular.
Something I'm having troubles with is simcitying the third on cloud kingdom. I think I have to simcity diagonally and use the nexus as apart of the wall since roaches can wrap around the large ramp. I also find it a lot easier to hold my third if I do a complete walloff of the first ramp with the destructible rocks. 2-3 Cannons and 2 sentries can stop potentially game-ending pronged attacks into my natural/surround my units at my third. This way I would only have to worry about full frontal attacks at my third.
Yea, this is a good point. Most of the time even pros have terrible sim cities. For example, compare the sim cities used by JYP and Squirtle used on Daybreak in the vods I suggested. Both use the same amount of buildings, but imo Squirtle's is superior. I also like diagonal sim city on Cloud Kingdom, like the kind White-ra used on that map which doesn't involve the nexus. I personally don't like cim cities that involve the nexus, as sometimes the zerg can just sac 10 roaches to get the nexus.
@Monk i thought you were also fiddling around with gate-nexus-core openings?
I'm working such a type of build, and with playing it absolutely safe ( ie gate-nexus-forge-cannon-core ) i can still get my first warp in cycle up at 7:40, and i bet once i get used to certain timings and scout how many lings he produces i can get it out at 7:30 with +1 done.
In essence what i'm saying is that with a earlier timing that you can hit, you can get up a faster third, or delay the roach max since the roach warren already needs to go down at 6 minutes instead of 7 to defend a 7:30 warp in cycle. This is a huge impact on a Z's econ
Nope, I haven't been doing gate nexus openings. I actually haven't been playing much lately cause of an accident I had.
On April 10 2012 19:56 Ryndika wrote: Isn't it better to get shields against roachspam? You'll be mostly taking shield damage anyway, youll get more beefy cannons and stronger simcity, not sure if shields better for immortals or not (hardened shield last longer). It's only 50/50 more expensive. (and you get +1 attack frirst yes)
+2 attack is more useful for immortals and in the long term.
On April 10 2012 22:08 Adonminus wrote: I completely agree that you need to make sim cities as best as you can, good sim cities can save you countless amount of times while bad sim sities or a complete lack of sim cities can cost you the game. On some maps you can even completly block an entrance to your 3rd with a sim city, some canons and some sentries.
I do not agree on army splitting though, it is already hard to deal with maxed roaches with a non split army. You just need to scout the enemy roaches and position your army accordingly.
That's pretty much exactly what I said.
On April 11 2012 00:35 daredpanda wrote: For faster thirds, you have to be aware of the things Zerg can do. I did fast third on Cloud Kingdom ~6min and got nydused...mistake on my part xD
You don't get fast 3rd bases unless you scout your opponent has a 4:30 third.
On April 11 2012 01:51 DarkblueRH wrote: I've always wondered why PvZ has devolved into all of these 2base plays. It's rather frustrating for me because I've always thought that a Turtle-Toss is better than anything Protoss can do off 2 bases. I've personally been playing around with a standard FFE -> 4gate Robo then loading up 4 zealots in a warp prism and sniping queens with it. If you drop zealots while the warp prism is moving, you can surround the queen with the 4 zealots and gaurantee the kill unless the player notices and runs away at the right time. Kill 2-3 queens and you'll not have to worry about dying anytime soon.
Behind this warp prism harass, I'm building no stalkers, chrono'ing immortals, building a twilight and +2 attack while placing cannons at my 3rd and walling off. This happens at ~7-8 mintues. My only fear is that in the window that my warp prism is reaching the Zerg's 3rd, there are a swarm of lings killing the probe that is building the cannons at my 3rd BEFORE the cannons have completed. Once the cannons have completed, cannons are so good vs lings that the only thing that can force a cancel of the nexus is roaches (Because the cannons buy you time to move your army/warp in zealots). And if Z is going enough roaches early enough to cancel my nexus he must not have a lot of drones. And while chrono'ing immortals and having the 4 sentries that the standard FFE -> 4gate robo gets you roaches are often a non-issue. A Zealot/Immortal/Sentry composition will eat roaches alive when on defense.
Basically the idea is to not build stalkers unless you're planning on killing the Zerg RIGHT NOW! or if you're absolutely forced to i.e. Mutas appeared and you have no cannons+storm or archons.
With a 3rd in place, by the time the Stephano Roach/ling comes you've got a bunch of FF, storm nearing completion or already done, 4-5 immortals, ~9 gateways and a decent amount of zealots. With good map structure and Sim City, it's a cakewalk to hold the push with immortal/sentry/zealot + storm. You also get a really really nice timing at ~14-20 mintues depending on the early-game when your templar and sentries both have full energy. You have like 170 supply, ~12 gateways, 6 immortals, 6-8 templar, like ~12-16 storms, 10-16 Forcefields and a warp prism. If Zerg does not have brood lords, with proper micro you'll just flat out win vs anything. If he has broods, rush a mothership and storm the vortex with a few archons in it.
Definitely going to try this at some point, sounds pretty fun, getting to harass early game while macroing is something I enjoy when I can pull it off.
Thanks dude.
Well this build itself is based around a gimmick, you have to pick off Queens with Warp Prism Zealots and if your opponent has extra Queens it seems very unsafe.
In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
On April 10 2012 11:19 Ncage wrote: An interesting style of play that hasn't been utilized in a large amount of pro matches is that of counter attacks/drops/harassment to keep the Zerg in base or split up when they would prefer to be attacking. I'd be interested if the match up heads in that direction with blinks into the main, warp prisim harass etc. I say this because if this can actually be pulled off then it would allow the protoss some spare time to bolster their defenses.
In reality though, it is a difficult thing to do: harass a maxed zerg into sending back a significant part of their army or holding off their attack while macroing up enough to hold off the eventual push.
I obviously agree with everything you put in the OP. I just think that we might see some protoss builds that force the zerg to divide their attention when when they would prefer to focus on their attack.
I agree with this. However, at lower leagues this crap is fucking difficult to pull off ... if i'm somehow playing godly for whatever reason i can get absurd multi pronged harassment done and then hold the counter. The problem is that i loose to mass unit influx at my door more times than i can pull this off. It literally does require you to out preform and be better than your zerg opponent. Not that it's not doable, but at the mid platinum level when Mass Mutas FTW were the standard, Protoss's at that level literally just dont' have the mechanics to pull off multi pronged attacks with mass units with extremely good map awareness for storms and blink positioning. That said i'm all for it if it works ... the mass harass / gosu dropping / multitasking style (actually like HerO's PvZ) is fun as hell if you can pull it off. I'm just skeptical of whether it's an "answer" kind of thing.
just keep in mind that at lower levels it works both ways. iv won soo many games from shenanigans offracing so dont get discouraged. Always assume you are the problem. i dont agree with the multi prong harass = out perform idealogy. terrans think they are too good and soo do zergs when it comes to playing vs other races. toss takes skill to play but complaing is just a way to make an excuse. If you play pro then maybe its a problem but dont accept race balance as a lower league player. if i did i would just be bitching about zvx. i may not be good with any race (im casual) but whenver i lose to a toss or terran the last thing i think it X race op i internalize the problem.
Dont ever accept the "i played so well and my opponent "a moved" or you will never improve. the grass can always be greener for another race
Sorry it came across that way, but that wasn't the argument i was making ^_^ I completely agree with you. But what i am saying is that there are certain strategies that are alot easier to execute than vs what is required to defend it. Muta ling in pvz, 1-1-1, 4gate ( not so much anymore, but back in the day ), colossus voidray deathball on 2base ( same deal ) are examples of this IMO. But the mutli pronged style DOES require you to have pretty good mechanics ... there isn't a way around that. You can do multi pronged crazy attacks all you want, but when your attack ends and you haven't macro'd at home, and the Zerg has a surplus of units ( which WILL happen ), then your just going to die to a counter. Not playing the OP card ... i don't think mass roach style is imba. Just needs to be worked out ... and for a while PvZ is gonna suck ... Just like it did vs Mass Muta not so long ago ^_^
i can agree with that especially since i know how that feels for protoss. it may be op now but lets see what comes up. i feel like you're the first person to approach balance rationally from what iv seen. i love it lol.
i really hope more people just learn to admit their mistakes. as a zerg why do people complain so much? as a zerg micro matters just as other races but why even complain? people wont see it your way. tosses and terrans are complaining but without people being at least in top master its hard to accept the QQ. every loss to me is attributable to my lack of skill but idk why people dont admit it.
im gonna keep playing zerg and win or lose fuck it. zerg is the race that i enjoy so screw win ratio's. from 5 rax reaper to now zerg is the best imo and i will stick with it agree or not, people need to love their own race
There has never been a replay that I've watched that I've honestly said "there's no way I can win vs that" unless I am versing someone with a much higher skill than me.
apperently u have never been 3 base vs 3 base pvz on taldarime alter after a scouted muta switch from mass roach and realize u can't defend your third base and your natural.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
If it's not a 2 base all in, it may find some love
PvZ, on the other hand, has been lagging behind the TvZ metagame for quite a bit as 2 base all-ins are still by far the most common strategy. Now, I could blame this on a variety of things such as:
The inflexibility of FFE and how Zerg can get a free 3rd.
The fact that Protoss units work better in balls and thus are less effective non all-in pressure. For example, marines, hellions and medivacs work much better individually than sentires/stalkers/immortals.
Nexii can't float like CCs.
The thing you're forgetting is that protoss has no reliable defense against mutalisks. Stimmed marines and missle turrets are both good and thors get the job done if your opponent commits fully to mutalisks. Cannons, blink stalkers, and storm are respectively pretty crappy compared to their terran counterparts. I'll bet if you compiled a whole bunch of replays vs mutas where the protoss tried to hold onto 3 bases the winrate would be abysmal vs if they just 2 based it.
Embrace the 2 base.
buuut all that being said I've had some success with a strat similar to the Stephano vs White-Ra game. I found it pretty safe to replicate the same opening you would use doing a 1/1 3 immortal push, but only get 4 gates total and drop the 3rd at 8 minutes. White-Ra's build seems to be a lot better than this though.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
i fully stand behind this style and frankly 2 base all ins were becoming too coin flip for my taste. Even though i knew i was better than my opponent i would lose. So i have been resorting to faster 10 min thirds behind a 4 gate zealot pressure with 1-1 and a warp prism to deal damage to two fronts. This style prevents the zerg droning from getting out of hand as it has pressure throughout the game and you can safely take a third with sentries and 2 immortals and blink stalkers off 6 gates, very similar to what is being described above.
Monk if you have anything you could add to this style i would greatly appreciate it, here are some of my replays from the mid master ladder. I am sorry i am only mid master but kiwikakki, attero, Noumena and even Oz play a very similar style which means barring my chobo-ness it should work :D . Note that it opens off 2 gate ways instead of 1. The inclusion of a sentry to wall off the main from reinforcements is something i have been meaning to implement.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game.
I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it.
Just out of curiosity, what is a reasonable timing to get hallucination off ffe? 9ish minutes? I think that might go a long way towards at least scouting what the zerg is doing and helping with army positioning.
You probably can't adjust your build in time if he is going hydra vs pure roach vs muta, but at least knowing how many units will hit and where might be immensly helpful on a lot of maps, especially with the sentry+immortal defensive builds.
On April 13 2012 01:19 Teoita wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is a reasonable timing to get hallucination off ffe? 9ish minutes? I think that might go a long way towards at least scouting what the zerg is doing and helping with army positioning.
You probably can't adjust your build in time if he is going hydra vs pure roach vs muta, but at least knowing how many units will hit and where might be immensly helpful on a lot of maps, especially with the sentry+immortal defensive builds.
What about never?
After FFE you rely on probe scouting for the third, harass him with any +1 zealot ( and extra unit ) combination and see what he defends with to pin him on at least a certain path. i.e. pure ling crawler defense is more likely muta or infestor play. Roach defense is at least roaches till around the 12-13 minute mark. And to be honest the zergs that go roach defense into muta are the least scary in my opinion.
Once you harassed you get a robo up to get 2-3 observers ( at least that's what i like to get ) to spot for multi pronged attacks, and to scout out his base for tech path. my first observer normally pops at around 9 minutes
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game.
I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it.
You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming?
I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game.
I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it.
You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming?
I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week.
I don't see the advantages this build has over 1 stargate. Also, it seems really vulnerable to roach/hydra drops.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game.
I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it.
You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming?
I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week.
I don't see the advantages this build has over 1 stargate. Also, it seems really vulnerable to roach/hydra drops.
I'm on my phone at the moment, so it is difficult to list all of the advantages, but the main one is that it forces hydras, which you then crush wih fast collosus and sentry stalker, then you begin producing voids again for your death push.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game.
I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it.
You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming?
I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week.
I don't see the advantages this build has over 1 stargate. Also, it seems really vulnerable to roach/hydra drops.
I'm on my phone at the moment, so it is difficult to list all of the advantages, but the main one is that it forces hydras, which you then crush wih fast collosus and sentry stalker, then you begin producing voids again for your death push.
Let me see if I understand the idea. You get a fast 4 void rays to pressure, then pump all your gas into colossi. Once you've got a handful of colossi you go back to VRs for lategame. Somewhere in there you also get "mass sentries". Seems like a lot of gas. Doesn't seem like a bad gameplan, but then - as Monk pointed out - making just like 2 voids out of 1 stargate also forces hydra or mutas. I guess the reason you have two stargates (beyond forcing out another queen or two and probably more spores than he'd want to build) is that if he chooses muta you can still get away with not making blink stalkers?
Also, how do you not die if they just don't make hydras and swarm with roaches? 1 stargate makes big roach pushes hard enough. When (/if) you make the guide, be sure to include a 3-base roach spammer.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Cyrus- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Same here.
Also interested in seeing your guide to compare it with my current play style, I have a feeling we have a lot of similarities except I try to beat hydra timings with good micro and a mass of air, while you get a fast tech switch and pump colossus. I think our endgame composition is about the same though.
Just a small tip for maybe lower-league players to help deal with this. Instead of putting your spare stargate units in your army, you can just place them over attack paths to your natural and 3rd. This way, you can scout where he is coming from and prepare much better with forcefields etc.
If it's a hydra mix, this wouldn't work, but then zerg would also have a much lower mobility.
This also frees up robo facility build time, as you don't really need observers unless the zerg goes burrow.
you forgot THE BEST expand build titan and welmu and me (high master toss eu) are using it it s a 6.30 4 gate (NOT AGRESSIVE, just for safety and unit production),7 min robo,7.45 nexus expand build you hold every stephano mass roach or ling roach builds FOR SURE, if you can play at least
i could write a guide about it, maybe if some guys are interested in it
A thing the OP implies is that many zerg all ins have now been relegated to a minority in the zerg strategy pool, like roach ling, nydus and the like. The 12 min max is just so much more powerful than these all ins that a good zerg will prefer it to a gamble, since it will guarantee a level of damage. Besides the bane bust (which is map dependent) imo toss can afford to play much greedier ffe styles than they could before. We see a reflection of this in MC's play. He virtually never chronoboosts warpgate or +1 weapons, spending it all on probes.
The interesting thing is the extent of this greed. In terrans case, it is the fast third orbital and quick bio upgrades. I am skeptical of 1 gate double nexus builds in this match up, since there is virtually no way to deny the zerg from scouting this and reacting. The situation is similar to the PvT FFE when the terran takes a gas, you have no idea what he could be doing. However, it might be feasible to bring forward the 9-10 minute nexus timings to about 8 minutes or so. This is usually the time when the toss executes 4 gate pressure, so there is enough to hold against pure lings. MC and Hero both favoured fast stargate tech, which yields the void ray capable of fending off slow roaches. With constant production off 3 gates and a robo, the timing window to prepare for the zerg max is increased by a full minute or so. Imo it becomes v difficult to macro with a ten minute third against the roach max, since your full attention is required with ffs, sim city and runby's. By playing v greedily in the first 8 minutes, it might be possible to optimally saturate your third before the max hits and reap the benefits.
I have a question if FFE is so rigid and passive, why not do a gateway first style opening where a forge is still gotten and cannons still have a defensive purpose.
I've been adapting a gateway first on the low ground style that Attero uses and I've been seeing a lot of success recently in really slowing down Zerg macro. If you make a gateway before nexus or anything else and make zealots, you can oftentimes force a cancel on the third or a lot of unit production.
The only problem I've found is that tech is a little bit slow and stargate isn't a very viable follow up with regards to it being able to hold an all in or all in counter from zerg. It lends itself much much better to robo play.
You still take your third and turn it to a macro game. You take the third behind follow up pressure. You can frontload the minerals and go for a zealot 4 gate followup if the zerg doesn't lose their third, or go for warp prism drops to help secure the third base.
On May 06 2012 23:07 ZeromuS wrote: I have a question if FFE is so rigid and passive, why not do a gateway first style opening where a forge is still gotten and cannons still have a defensive purpose.
I've been adapting a gateway first on the low ground style that Attero uses and I've been seeing a lot of success recently in really slowing down Zerg macro. If you make a gateway before nexus or anything else and make zealots, you can oftentimes force a cancel on the third or a lot of unit production.
The only problem I've found is that tech is a little bit slow and stargate isn't a very viable follow up with regards to it being able to hold an all in or all in counter from zerg. It lends itself much much better to robo play.
You still take your third and turn it to a macro game. You take the third behind follow up pressure. You can frontload the minerals and go for a zealot 4 gate followup if the zerg doesn't lose their third, or go for warp prism drops to help secure the third base.
This is the titan build. See his games vs Stephano in a recent tournament to see how Stephano reacts to it. With the up coming queen change, zealot pressure is further weakened. The build may slow zerg macro a little, but it also slows your macro and tech.
If u remember that game of WhiteRa vs Stephano on IPL 4, when Ra got his third at 6:30 if I remember correctly, defended it perfectly, but lost anyway to inevitable infestor/broodlord comp. That I think is the main problem with fast 3rd PvZ - there is huge chance to face scenario that is even more coin-flippy than any 2 base allin.
On April 13 2012 00:58 Razultull wrote: i fully stand behind this style and frankly 2 base all ins were becoming too coin flip for my taste. Even though i knew i was better than my opponent i would lose. So i have been resorting to faster 10 min thirds behind a 4 gate zealot pressure with 1-1 and a warp prism to deal damage to two fronts. This style prevents the zerg droning from getting out of hand as it has pressure throughout the game and you can safely take a third with sentries and 2 immortals and blink stalkers off 6 gates, very similar to what is being described above.
Monk if you have anything you could add to this style i would greatly appreciate it, here are some of my replays from the mid master ladder. I am sorry i am only mid master but kiwikakki, attero, Noumena and even Oz play a very similar style which means barring my chobo-ness it should work :D . Note that it opens off 2 gate ways instead of 1. The inclusion of a sentry to wall off the main from reinforcements is something i have been meaning to implement.
Do you have replays where the zerg defends and the game continues into a macro battle?
I just watched the 5 replays and out of them only 1 opponent hit the 8:00 60-70 food benchmark. Additionally, only two players scouted the warp prism and one player scouted the two gateways at the front and had an answer for the early zealot pressure. One of the players (the zerg on antiga) completely stopped macroing for over a minute and focused solely on the zealot pressure. Every player lost their main. In other words, only one of them played a decent game and you could have probably flat-out won on two bases with the damage you dealt.
I have no doubt you could have expanded without the crippling damage to your opponent. However, the replays did not show the long-term effects of the fast third and how it aided against zerg's late game composition.
On April 12 2012 11:40 -Trippin- wrote: In about mid-high Master league (I finished top 8 last season), I have had extreme success with a double stargate build I made that gets 4 voids, mass sentrys, and safe third as well as fast collosus to combat inevitable hydra or roach attacks following the scouted stargates. I win most all of my PvZ with this build and it is insanely strong and refined to the point where I sincerely believe it has an answer to everything Zerg can throw at you. If there s enough interest, I'll post a guide.
Do you have any replays? In particular, this thread would be looking for times where you: 1. Are not able to snipe the third with voids (i.e. zerg is playing well). 2. Create a third of your own. 3. Have Colossi before the 13 minute mark. 4. Win the game.
I'm not sure I'm convinced it's possible, because all the units you describe "massing" cost so much gas - but at the same time, I guess it's not inconceivable that you could do it.
You handle mutas with pheonixes I'm assuming?
I actually have probably over 100 replays with everything you mentioned seeing as how I do this build every PvZ. I'll probably write a guide sometime late next week.
Willing to share the replays now? Or do we need to wait for the guide?
On May 06 2012 23:07 ZeromuS wrote: I have a question if FFE is so rigid and passive, why not do a gateway first style opening where a forge is still gotten and cannons still have a defensive purpose.
I've been adapting a gateway first on the low ground style that Attero uses and I've been seeing a lot of success recently in really slowing down Zerg macro. If you make a gateway before nexus or anything else and make zealots, you can oftentimes force a cancel on the third or a lot of unit production.
The only problem I've found is that tech is a little bit slow and stargate isn't a very viable follow up with regards to it being able to hold an all in or all in counter from zerg. It lends itself much much better to robo play.
You still take your third and turn it to a macro game. You take the third behind follow up pressure. You can frontload the minerals and go for a zealot 4 gate followup if the zerg doesn't lose their third, or go for warp prism drops to help secure the third base.
This is the titan build. See his games vs Stephano in a recent tournament to see how Stephano reacts to it. With the up coming queen change, zealot pressure is further weakened. The build may slow zerg macro a little, but it also slows your macro and tech.
No, I don't believe its the titan build. I don't do a four gate quickly, I send my initial zealots and rally more to the third. If I don't force a cancel I greatly lower its health to the point at which a four gate zealot follow up at 8 minutes to 9 minutes hits with the same power off an ffe but with a lower health hatch to kill. If they want to hold the hatch they need units the Zerg cannot make roaches as a response and deflect my zealots as is normal. whereas vs the usual timing they can save a hatch in the yellow or the red I start my attack on a red or yellow hatch. it makes the follow up more likely to kill the hatch.
Thank you so much man, i play zerg and i have been dealing with protosses crying forever now. My favoritie part is i tell them how to get a third and get past the roach max using your first method that is between White-Ra and Stephano.
They all flame me and say oh some random zerg guy knows where the metagame is going to shift and all of the protosses dont. Yeah Right.
It has been annoying but whatever i am finally glad to play macro games vs protosses because i have almost 0 late game experience. Every game they all in or take like an 11 minute third, which is pretty much when my whole army is out with roach and ling speed.
I believe the macro protoss is the scariest. If they have as much gas income as a late game zerg then they can afford anything and a mothership is good. I cant wait to play NSH_Seal's style.
On May 06 2012 22:50 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote: you forgot THE BEST expand build titan and welmu and me (high master toss eu) are using it it s a 6.30 4 gate (NOT AGRESSIVE, just for safety and unit production),7 min robo,7.45 nexus expand build you hold every stephano mass roach or ling roach builds FOR SURE, if you can play at least
i could write a guide about it, maybe if some guys are interested in it
If you can back up an in-depth guide for this with high level replays, I think every protoss who lurks or posts on this forum would read it and love you.
On April 10 2012 11:33 Salivanth wrote: Great thread already, awesome OP. I'm not at a level of play or understanding where I'm comfortable contributing, but I'm going to stop 2-base all-ining and start playing macro PvZ again.
You're a badass good sir. Admitting that you're not in Grandmaster or a pro and acknowledging that this conversation is over your head (mine too).
Love the post, and I too will stop my foolish 7 Gate +2 blink attacks.
IMO getting a fast third (before the 10:30 minute mark) is the only way to play PvZ at a high level right now. 2 base all ins only work if you REALLY metagame / trick the zerg or deny scouting incredibily well which is tough cause on most maps zergs can auto scout your natural gas's and then know what you're doing.
My favorite safe counter-all fast 3d builds in PvZ right now are: -a modified MvP Genius stargate opener. Quick void ray (4 additional gates while it's building and +1 attack)), followed up by 5+ hidden phoenix (will often surprise zergs after you deny scouting with your void ray. can supply block the zerg / force spores/ kill queens to delay any roach aggression a little bit.) > robo at ~8:40 > 3rd at 9:30-10:30 depending on how passive the zerg plays. Make a lot of sentries and immortals immediately. Important to get a twilight council after the 3rd to start +2 after +1 armor is done, and to get blink. This build is also amazing vs any muta builds, so hard for the zerg to do damage to 7+ well micro-d phoenix sitting over cannons in your mineral line. -SlayerSPuzzle style robo first. I think you've mentioned it before in some of your posts. He gets double obs, 5 gates, and immortals from the robo while expanding between 9:00-10:00. +1 armor right after +1 attack is done. A cool thing about this build is that he fakes a robo sentry all in (which you can probably do if the zerg is being greedy) and scares the zerg while he just takes a 3rd off of the super safe sentry immortal. Important to go robo first before gates, so you can get your 2 obs out quick as you need some way to scout the zergs rally point and outside ur 3rd base.
I also use a robo build that gets the 3rd at 7:50, but only on some maps. Either way, 2 base all ins are realllly bad vs good high master zergs who have practiced the 3 hatch no-gas build so much, so I suggest that everyone practice quick 3rd builds.
Hey TL, first post here! Thanks for having me, looking forward to a long and comfortable stay.
For the last few weeks I have been working on a 1/3 gate expo (depending on whether or not I sense pressure) into +1 attack and robo. go warp prism first for zealot warp ins to harass the third around 8:30.
Early defense covered by cannon/sentry/stalker/zealot as necessary with a good sim city. You go into heavy sentry + immortal play for defense and can add a third around 9-11 min. If you want to be really brave with gas do 4 sentries instead of 6 and go for a fast charge play to make the harassment super effective.
I find this build puts me in a good position against zergs going for 3 base roach plays.
On May 07 2012 11:41 -Exalt- wrote: IMO getting a fast third (before the 10:30 minute mark) is the only way to play PvZ at a high level right now. 2 base all ins only work if you REALLY metagame / trick the zerg or deny scouting incredibily well which is tough cause on most maps zergs can auto scout your natural gas's and then know what you're doing.
My favorite safe counter-all fast 3d builds in PvZ right now are: -a modified MvP Genius stargate opener. Quick void ray (4 additional gates while it's building and +1 attack)), followed up by 5+ hidden phoenix (will often surprise zergs after you deny scouting with your void ray. can supply block the zerg / force spores/ kill queens to delay any roach aggression a little bit.) > robo at ~8:40 > 3rd at 9:30-10:30 depending on how passive the zerg plays. Make a lot of sentries and immortals immediately. Important to get a twilight council after the 3rd to start +2 after +1 armor is done, and to get blink. This build is also amazing vs any muta builds, so hard for the zerg to do damage to 7+ well micro-d phoenix sitting over cannons in your mineral line. -SlayerSPuzzle style robo first. I think you've mentioned it before in some of your posts. He gets double obs, 5 gates, and immortals from the robo while expanding between 9:00-10:00. +1 armor right after +1 attack is done. A cool thing about this build is that he fakes a robo sentry all in (which you can probably do if the zerg is being greedy) and scares the zerg while he just takes a 3rd off of the super safe sentry immortal. Important to go robo first before gates, so you can get your 2 obs out quick as you need some way to scout the zergs rally point and outside ur 3rd base.
I also use a robo build that gets the 3rd at 7:50, but only on some maps. Either way, 2 base all ins are realllly bad vs good high master zergs who have practiced the 3 hatch no-gas build so much, so I suggest that everyone practice quick 3rd builds.
Yea, I like those 2 builds as well. But for Genius's stargate into robo build I prefer Hero's version which is 1-2 voidrays into pheonix into fast robo into 4 gates. It trades some sentry energy for faster robo and more immortals and might get another voidray to deter roaches. The 3rd build I've been looking at is one used by Squirtle and Puzzle which is a 4 gate sentry pressure into immortals into expand.
My problem with this build, in any variation, its clever zerg players.. are rare, but there are somewhere. If they see me expanding, they stop roaches and rush hive tech with broodlords at 15:00 or so with maybe some harass of a group of 10mutas or so. This put me in a defensive position, because i'vent got really nothing to deal about, and they simply bank for a 2\3 respawn of the same deathball. Statistically, 1 of this 3 remax of bl\if, you engage poorly, and you die. I wonder what will happen when all zerg learn to do it as a standard with a refined build..
On May 07 2012 21:38 InVerno wrote: My problem with this build, in any variation, its clever zerg players.. are rare, but there are somewhere. If they see me expanding, they stop roaches and rush hive tech with broodlords at 15:00 or so with maybe some harass of a group of 10mutas or so. This put me in a defensive position, because i'vent got really nothing to deal about, and they simply bank for a 2\3 respawn of the same deathball. Statistically, 1 of this 3 remax of bl\if, you engage poorly, and you die. I wonder what will happen when all zerg learn to do it as a standard with a refined build..
You can hit with a colossus timing before they get there generally. If they rush to broodlords without the proper amount of infestors you can just kill the broods with a blink in. You can also do a slightly weaker colossus push but combine it with a mothership at home. Ideally you kill a base then or at least force a huge load of spine crawlers while your mothership is finishing up.
On May 07 2012 21:38 InVerno wrote: My problem with this build, in any variation, its clever zerg players.. are rare, but there are somewhere. If they see me expanding, they stop roaches and rush hive tech with broodlords at 15:00 or so with maybe some harass of a group of 10mutas or so. This put me in a defensive position, because i'vent got really nothing to deal about, and they simply bank for a 2\3 respawn of the same deathball. Statistically, 1 of this 3 remax of bl\if, you engage poorly, and you die. I wonder what will happen when all zerg learn to do it as a standard with a refined build..
Don't know what "this build" is you're referring to, because I don't mention a specific build in the OP. However, usually with most macro based PvZs, you can't punish a fast broodlord tech at all which gets its first broodlords at 15:00. Colossi timings won't work, because you won't have colossi out fast enough with any known "safe" roach max build and they should only be gotten reactively by scouting no roach max. Ling/infestor/spine can stop any non-colossi based push and you can only usually have around 2 colossi max at your opponent's front door at 15:00. Thus, imo you have to either play a macro game vs broods or try to catch your opponent offguard and hit him in places his broods and spines aren't protecting.
I think it's important to fake an all-in if you want to take a third, or mess with the dronecycles somehow. Something I've been thinking about is that by going for an early zealot->stalker->stalker you force some early lings, after which you can go 4gate zealot or just fake it by building a proxy pylon in the zergs vision, forcing more stuff, then you can go for an immortal/sentry/stalker composition and clear a tower to force even more stuff. Another possibilty is going for a void ray instead of the robo to force spores which also reduce the dronecount. Basically it's all a bout messing with him so that he can't get to 200 roaches that fast.
On May 07 2012 11:41 -Exalt- wrote: IMO getting a fast third (before the 10:30 minute mark) is the only way to play PvZ at a high level right now. 2 base all ins only work if you REALLY metagame / trick the zerg or deny scouting incredibily well which is tough cause on most maps zergs can auto scout your natural gas's and then know what you're doing.
My favorite safe counter-all fast 3d builds in PvZ right now are: -a modified MvP Genius stargate opener. Quick void ray (4 additional gates while it's building and +1 attack)), followed up by 5+ hidden phoenix (will often surprise zergs after you deny scouting with your void ray. can supply block the zerg / force spores/ kill queens to delay any roach aggression a little bit.) > robo at ~8:40 > 3rd at 9:30-10:30 depending on how passive the zerg plays. Make a lot of sentries and immortals immediately. Important to get a twilight council after the 3rd to start +2 after +1 armor is done, and to get blink. This build is also amazing vs any muta builds, so hard for the zerg to do damage to 7+ well micro-d phoenix sitting over cannons in your mineral line. -SlayerSPuzzle style robo first. I think you've mentioned it before in some of your posts. He gets double obs, 5 gates, and immortals from the robo while expanding between 9:00-10:00. +1 armor right after +1 attack is done. A cool thing about this build is that he fakes a robo sentry all in (which you can probably do if the zerg is being greedy) and scares the zerg while he just takes a 3rd off of the super safe sentry immortal. Important to go robo first before gates, so you can get your 2 obs out quick as you need some way to scout the zergs rally point and outside ur 3rd base.
I also use a robo build that gets the 3rd at 7:50, but only on some maps. Either way, 2 base all ins are realllly bad vs good high master zergs who have practiced the 3 hatch no-gas build so much, so I suggest that everyone practice quick 3rd builds.
Yea, I like those 2 builds as well. But for Genius's stargate into robo build I prefer Hero's version which is 1-2 voidrays into pheonix into fast robo into 4 gates. It trades some sentry energy for faster robo and more immortals and might get another voidray to deter roaches. The 3rd build I've been looking at is one used by Squirtle and Puzzle which is a 4 gate sentry pressure into immortals into expand.
Would you happen to have a link to HerO's take on a quick third?
This is a style I've played for a while. What would you think about going in to 4 gate robo before third, and then getting your twilight council, more gates, blink, and HTs? Still viable?
I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote: I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote: I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
how du you defend baneling bust?
By engaging banelings head on with my zealots, 1by 1... Also reinforcing your wall with other buildings helps. Him wasting larvae on banelings means I can chrono probes.
Although I've lost to busts as well if I trade badly. You can also attack banelings with singular probes. It takes 2 banes to kill1probe.
On May 07 2012 23:49 Arcanefrost wrote: I think it's important to fake an all-in if you want to take a third, or mess with the dronecycles somehow. Something I've been thinking about is that by going for an early zealot->stalker->stalker you force some early lings, after which you can go 4gate zealot or just fake it by building a proxy pylon in the zergs vision, forcing more stuff, then you can go for an immortal/sentry/stalker composition and clear a tower to force even more stuff. Another possibilty is going for a void ray instead of the robo to force spores which also reduce the dronecount. Basically it's all a bout messing with him so that he can't get to 200 roaches that fast.
That's morrow's opinion as well. However, there have been very successful macro builds that don't involve faking an all-in such as Hero's or Puzzle's builds.
Would you happen to have a link to HerO's take on a quick third?
Look up Hero vs Stephano from EGMC from about a week ago. He does variations of the build in games 1 and 3.
On May 07 2012 23:52 Nuclease wrote: This is a style I've played for a while. What would you think about going in to 4 gate robo before third, and then getting your twilight council, more gates, blink, and HTs? Still viable?
Sure, this sounds like a build that Squirtle and Puzzle have both used in the past. However, you can't really get templar until you either stabilize vs the roach max or you know a roach max isn't coming.
On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote: I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
The thing that I'm worried about is that there needs to be more pressure on the Zerg. Seems impossible to me to keep up with their drone count if you don't put pressure on. I like to go 4 gate robo before the third (but still get the third up around 10 minutes). It seems to me though, that if the Zerg is smart and can read that I'm not going for a push, they will drone up like CRAZY, and then by the time they get to Brood Lords, I can't hope to engage with their army. What are your thoughts on that, Monk? Any favorite ways to put some pressure on? And do you think that's it's okay to avoid pressure of they are going for a roach push? I feel like the roach push, if defended, can damage them enough, if it's held well, that the worker disparity can be made up for. But if they go straight to BLs with TONS of drones, I don't feel like this fast third style is aggressive enough, necessarily. Thoughts?
I get a fast 3rd, at about the 10 minute mark. Involves my typical Warp Prism play and some early aggression overall. We stay even in income until about the 8minute mark, and even then once my harass hits I kill 13 drones evening it once again.
On May 08 2012 00:13 Xaldarian wrote: I'm having success with 2 gate after forge into 4 gate pressure into fast third and once established and guarded by cannons and my army I go double robo double stargate and pum immortals and voidrays 2 at a time. If zerg attacks I panick warp in and otherwise max out on Vr immortal gateway units. I push when I defend an attack or want a 4th. I put proxies all over the map so I can instantly reinforce once I lose supply. Any thoughts on this style?
So you feel that you have to hide the gate. Which can be done quite easily on some maps... I wall with forge gate pylon reinforcing the pylon with my cybercore later on. The other gate can only be seen if they bust my wall.
What is the general consensus on double robo double stargate? I feel that it allows for the flexibility we all long for. I overproduce gates like you say, purely for simcity, which allows me to warp in a lot of units mid fight. More production than I can support so that I can build what I require when I need it.
I've been tearing up the ladder with a build I've been using lately. This is high master gm players im playing. It starts with a nexus first. you then go straight into stargate while building 2 zealots and a stalker. The most important thing is the first 150 gas goes directly into stargate not upgrades or the stalker. you attack with the first void a phoenix being chronoed and the first 3 units. These also clear watchtowers and make it so the zerg doesnt know what you are doing. This is followed by 3 more gates while taking your third and constantly producing phoenix to help with harass. Ive gone as high as 7 and just dont lose them all game. They are ridiculously cost effective if controlled properly. you set up 2-5 cannons depending on how you multitask at your third while getting a robo and 3 more gates. Upgrade weapons throughout and add a second forge twilight and a 2nd robo when possible. dont add a second robo if muta but he should not be going muta vs upwards of 7 phoenix and you should scout it with your air units. With this build I've supply blocked zergs ridiculously taken a fast third killed all the queens drones free roaches, etc. It is a solid macro build vs mass roach you as you are able to entirely scout the zerg while macroing and making him produce units or spores. If he plays passively and goes fast hive just harass go for a 16 minute push with collosus stalker and usually 2/2-3/3 ups and you should be able to kill him outright. I have a million replays if anyone is interested.
I usually turtle on 2 bases and max out with a gateway unit/colossus ball and win the majority of my pvz's. It's like I am stuck on Cruncher style from 8 months ago, but hey it still works in diamond so im happy with it lol.
From a random player perspective it's clear there is something wrong with PvZ if the Protoss are struggling to come up strategies to counter a 3 base Zerg whose economy and army is off the chart by the 10+ min mark. I find it very easy when I play Zerg in this match up but when I play Protoss I struggle. Just my opinion
On May 08 2012 02:30 jackalope1234 wrote: I've been tearing up the ladder with a build I've been using lately. This is high master gm players im playing. It starts with a nexus first. you then go straight into stargate while building 2 zealots and a stalker. The most important thing is the first 150 gas goes directly into stargate not upgrades or the stalker. you attack with the first void a phoenix being chronoed and the first 3 units. These also clear watchtowers and make it so the zerg doesnt know what you are doing. This is followed by 3 more gates while taking your third and constantly producing phoenix to help with harass. Ive gone as high as 7 and just dont lose them all game. They are ridiculously cost effective if controlled properly. you set up 2-5 cannons depending on how you multitask at your third while getting a robo and 3 more gates. Upgrade weapons throughout and add a second forge twilight and a 2nd robo when possible. dont add a second robo if muta but he should not be going muta vs upwards of 7 phoenix and you should scout it with your air units. With this build I've supply blocked zergs ridiculously taken a fast third killed all the queens drones free roaches, etc. It is a solid macro build vs mass roach you as you are able to entirely scout the zerg while macroing and making him produce units or spores. If he plays passively and goes fast hive just harass go for a 16 minute push with collosus stalker and usually 2/2-3/3 ups and you should be able to kill him outright. I have a million replays if anyone is interested.
I am also very interested, but in my opinion, the solution is faking pression and warp prison ! Yes warp prison are just amazing pvz, since most of the time there only anti air are queens you can keep the malive for ridiculously long.
Heres a replay of Grubby against someone I know, a high masters on EU. The zerg in this game wasn't going for a pure roach bust, he played a little greedier, going for double evo and more drones, but nevertheless hit a max timing at 12:50 or so.
Grubby's build is geared towards taking a fast third and has several interesting features:
He doesn't exclusively chrono probes, spending a lot of it on warp gates and +1, constantly makes sentries Goes 2 gates before robo, for a total of 3 gates and a robo Warp gates are done around 8:00, warps in sentries and takes third, researches hallucination Efficient probe count of 46 or so before the third Obs first, followed by immortals Interesting sim city for antiga Follows with twilight, constant chronos on upgrades and blink
The third timing is a good 3 minutes before the beginning of the roach max. Faster warp gates threaten pressure and allow you to take a quicker third than builds that chrono probes (this doesn't include the 6 min 1 gate white ra third).
On April 10 2012 08:38 NrGmonk wrote: [*]Cannons: Especially behind sim city, roaches cannot focus fire cannons well. Cannons+ sentries is also a more efficient use of minerals/gas for defense than stalkers
While Cannons and Sentries are really good at dealing with Roaches, they are not so good against Mutalisks (Cannons in combination with Stalkers are effective, but Mutalisks will be able to find sweet spots between Cannons to do significant damage, especially if you don't have a lot of Stalkers prior to the Mutalisks showing up. Furthermore, the Zerg can be ultra greedy and simply not attack, and if you don't have a good core army of Stalkers, you won't be able to punish them for it.
I'm not entirely convinced that a faster third is the solution here, especially one that depends on the creation of wall to survive. That obviously gives the Zerg player a timing in which they can hit (prior to the wall going up or as it is building). Sure it does well vs Stephano's max Roach build, but if the Zerg just adjusts their timings, they can punish you since you really don't have that many units when your taking you're third. And then we'll be delaying taking our third and Zerg can go back to the 11-12 minute max Roach pushes.
i have recently started experimenting with 3 bases instead of my particular 2 base timing ive been using
however i dont find the roach max to be an issue, there hasnt been a single game out of the many ive played recently where i took an extremely fast 3rd and the zerg used max roach
this is probably because i use every single building i have to make my wall as well as get stargate tech first(before robo) so the zergs know its probably not going to work if they maxed roach for the 12 minute timing
instead the zergs do numerous other strategies..everything besides max roach 1. hydra/roach/ling/corruptor timing attack that comes a bit later than the max roach when hes around 180 food and im at 120 assuming nothing special happens mid game....zerg has around 65 drones 2. the quick hive for broods 3. muta play
these strategies are seriously godly for the zerg compared to the max 200 roach ive been HOPING to face
1. hydras, unlike roaches, actually has high dps and range that can take out gateway buildings easily that are on the same ground level and they become the main problem in the attack....at this point if u opened the way i did with very quick 3rd, and stargate tech before robo tech, you only really have 1 collosus before timing comes(i usually have 0 cause i mess up my macro and make robo late osmetimes)...so u are really just defending with sentry/1-2 voids/stalkers/maybe 1 immortal or so and it just overwhelms a protoss with sim city that opens the way i open
2.the straight up macro style play is probably the hardest to deal with, and if i was a zerg and see these quick 3rds it would be the choice id choose, they basically get hive tech at around the 10:30 to 12 minute mark and have broods by around 15 or something and theres really no way to punish them playing a standard macro up on 3 base toss game(at least i dont think so) and because of this lack of aggression, u are forced to play the ultimate macro game as well and tech to mothership, etc...but in my experience games like this favor the zerg, whos been playing super greedy macro already with a 4th base, his brood tech up, and his desired max drone count he wants for the game....he then goes on to basically get all infestorss/ corruptors/broods/spines while u are getting a composition that is inferior to his, with worse economy
3. if u go for these super robo techy stuff and realize that the zerg is not raoch aggressing at all and rushing to mass mutas off 3 bases, u are fighting an uphill battle, ull need mass cannons/few stalkers in each base/tech to high temp to defend with storm...even if u manage to hold off the zerg's mass muta play....unless the zerg messes up severely at some point by losing a lot of mutas attempting to hold off your perfect defense, u will find yourself playing a game where after holding off the mutas and securing your 3rd, or even maybe finding yourself taking a 4th or so....that the zerg has managed to get hive tech and is on the process or already has broods while on 4/5 bases....with a core 3 bases and maybe 4th and 5th bases being accross sides of the map with 1 spore and few spines...while u probably are not ready to handle it and have yet to get a mothership
this is why i have have only now recently ventured into trying to play a macro game vs 3rd with the styles everyone here is suggesting and using as opposed to my 2 base timing attack, and similar to everyone's experience, 2 base timing attacks are only as good as your opponent's capabilities....in my case, crushing or the less experienced masters/low gm zergs...but seemingly crushed in every way vs the top tier zergs who truly grasps how to hold off builds that are at their mercy
Added a ton of content and renamed/reframed the thread. Now it's worthy of a guide with new builds, suggestions, and discussion. Discussion on the guide starts here. Ignore mostly everything before this.
On May 19 2012 05:42 Teoita wrote: Thanks a lot for the edit, definitely helps a lot! I think this should go in the recommended threads since it's how modern macro pvz is played.
I would, but I've been really lazy with updating it recently. It's a lot more work than it seems plus it's extremely boring. I've got a lot of other, more exciting, projects in the works.
I personally like doing the old kiwikaki build... but with one gate.... just chrono 3 zealots (you can go up to 4 if you want) and go to his 3rd... should be around 7 minutes when you start attacking it. He can't have roaches since you normally throw put down a warren at 7 minutes. It doesn't even have to do any real damage, the zerg has to make lings or something to defend and that's enough, any damage done is just a bonus. Just what I do, and I'm not that good so take it with a grain of salt.
a tip though... go to the watch towers with only one zealot and the others slightly behind so he doesn't know you have multiple zlots, and try to avoid going near areas that zergs like to keep their ovies, such as those little blue boxes on daybreak.
here's something I've been wondering though... is there difference between early pressure and later in terms of damage done to zerg economically? What I mean is if you force a zerg to make something other than drones earlier when he has fewer drones does it hurt his eco more then if you do say a +1 4gate later, when he already has more drones? I'd really like to know how it works.
On April 10 2012 08:46 thrawn2112 wrote: are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc?
some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example)
The matchup doesn't need any huge changes in my opinion. Sim city and army position is the key .
On April 10 2012 08:46 thrawn2112 wrote: are you basically trying to say (in a nice way) that protoss have been playing very lazily and not putting enough thought into their build/simcity/etc?
some people would argue that the problem goes way beyond that and that a complete overhaul in pvz is needed... but history has shown that improving mechanics can solve balance issues. (bw for example)
The matchup doesn't need any huge changes in my opinion. Sim city and army position is the key .
You are correct. Sim City and army position are certainly key. You didn't mention what league you're in..
NrGmonk - I want to kiss you. This was a great read. I feel like I sorta kinda understand the game, but reading someone such as yourself on topics such as these allow me to get a taste of all the nuances that I would never find myself. Thank you thank you thank you!
I've been using this style for quite a while(i'm only diamond though) relatively succesful. I'm able to stop the roach max ~70% of the time, losing only when making some crucial mistakes (getting supply blocked/army out of position). However, I can't handle 3 hatch into muta/ling. Its easy to hold on two bases, as ur stalkers can get pretty fast to defend main or base. But when u are stretched to 3 base and muta flock gets big, it becomes almost impossible to do anything. I can't move out, any mutas i manage to snipe get reproduced, lings try to runby every few seconds all while Zerg expands everywhere on the map. When I finally manage to get rid of mutas, I find myself being on 3 bases compared to Z's 5-6, with finishing/finished GSpire and Blords on the way.
On May 19 2012 23:24 Tommyth wrote: I've been using this style for quite a while(i'm only diamond though) relatively succesful. I'm able to stop the roach max ~70% of the time, losing only when making some crucial mistakes (getting supply blocked/army out of position). However, I can't handle 3 hatch into muta/ling. Its easy to hold on two bases, as ur stalkers can get pretty fast to defend main or base. But when u are stretched to 3 base and muta flock gets big, it becomes almost impossible to do anything. I can't move out, any mutas i manage to snipe get reproduced, lings try to runby every few seconds all while Zerg expands everywhere on the map. When I finally manage to get rid of mutas, I find myself being on 3 bases compared to Z's 5-6, with finishing/finished GSpire and Blords on the way.
Any advice?
What's "this style"? If you're using one of the immortal builds, you rely on pressure to force units as you threaten an all-in push. This delays the mutas. Then blink into templar for muta defense. If you're using a phoenix build, get fleet beacon and anion pulse crystals.
Regarding simicities at the third, i really liked Trap's setup against Soulkey for Cloud Kingdom (and something similar could be done on Daybreak):
He simply walls off the side of his nexus with a couple of gates and a cannon behind, similarly to what one would do at his natural off a sentry expand. It's also interesting to notice how at around the 11 minute mark he throws down 3 extra gates that could wall the ramp to the natural instead, making it extremely hard for roaches to break.
edit: also for anyone that's interested, the nestea vs squirtle replay is included in the ipl4 pack, should probably add that to the op.
On May 21 2012 17:06 Teoita wrote: Regarding simicities at the third, i really liked Trap's setup against Soulkey for Cloud Kingdom (and something similar could be done on Daybreak):
He simply walls off the side of his nexus with a couple of gates and a cannon behind, similarly to what one would do at his natural off a sentry expand. It's also interesting to notice how at around the 11 minute mark he throws down 3 extra gates that could wall the ramp to the natural instead, making it extremely hard for roaches to break.
edit: also for anyone that's interested, the nestea vs squirtle replay is included in the ipl4 pack, should probably add that to the op.
I've tried walls like this and I have to say I don't like them. The problem is that roaches can easily snipe those gateways and the exposed gas and there's little you can do about it, because you're you'll be attacking from a choke into a concave. And in general, I don't like exposed walls unless they're at the top of a ramp.
On May 22 2012 07:30 Teoita wrote: How would you simcity on Cloud Kingdom then?
Like how Huk did vs Sleep in the NA MLG Spring Arena II Qualifier and how Killer did vs Ret MLG Spring Arena II. I mentioned this in the OP as well. I'd only sim the natural ramp and keep the majority of my army at my 3rd without any sim.
How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend.
What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural.
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it.
If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else.
On May 22 2012 08:30 -MoOsE- wrote: How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend.
The robo based builds don't do too well versus the 1011-12 minute mutas. These builds are based on the assumption that zergs will fear 2 base all-ins and need to make roaches to defend them. Previously, 3 base muta was considered a very risky coin flip build in that it would 100% die to any allins. However, if Nestea has indeed found a way to make it be safe and solid, which definitely remains to be seen, then imo PvZ as a whole will need to change. The stargate build can do dandy though.
On May 22 2012 08:36 Xequecal wrote: What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural.
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it.
If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else.
The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build.
Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies.
On May 22 2012 08:30 -MoOsE- wrote: How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend.
The robo based builds don't do too well versus the 1011-12 minute mutas. These builds are based on the assumption that zergs will fear 2 base all-ins and need to make roaches to defend them. Previously, 3 base muta was considered a very risky coin flip build in that it would 100% die to any allins. However, if Nestea has indeed found a way to make it be safe and solid, which definitely remains to be seen, then imo PvZ as a whole will need to change. The stargate build can do dandy though.
On May 22 2012 08:36 Xequecal wrote: What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural.
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it.
If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else.
The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build.
Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies.
Just want to point out that this Nestea build people are talking about (I assume it's the one from UnDs against JYP) relied on JYP not scouting at all and assuming mass roach. Nestea completely skipped a RW. It's not that safe at all... was just a mind game build, really.
This guide basically reminds me of what alot of gm protoss on korea like to do very often. For a long time their ability to land FF properly and be greedy at the right times has pushed me as the zerg away from maxing on roaches and towards later game play, specifically because I know that on a map like antiga or daybreak I will not be able to break them.
Absolutely a lot of refinement is needed for many Protoss players to reinvigorate this matchup. Whenever I watch liquidhero play I feel he's unstoppable and that other players just need to catch up.
On May 22 2012 08:30 -MoOsE- wrote: How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend.
The robo based builds don't do too well versus the 1011-12 minute mutas. These builds are based on the assumption that zergs will fear 2 base all-ins and need to make roaches to defend them. Previously, 3 base muta was considered a very risky coin flip build in that it would 100% die to any allins. However, if Nestea has indeed found a way to make it be safe and solid, which definitely remains to be seen, then imo PvZ as a whole will need to change. The stargate build can do dandy though.
On May 22 2012 08:36 Xequecal wrote: What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural.
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it.
If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else.
The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build.
Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies.
Just want to point out that this Nestea build people are talking about (I assume it's the one from UnDs against JYP) relied on JYP not scouting at all and assuming mass roach. Nestea completely skipped a RW. It's not that safe at all... was just a mind game build, really.
Yeah, I also foresee nestea losing his third to a well executed 4 gate zealot timing since there won't be any roaches, or if he does hold he needs to be really larva inefficient with lings to simply not lose the third base.
Though, in all honesty, its probably all based on how much he does or doesnt scout such as the gas taken at the natural etc etc.
On May 23 2012 11:20 Xaeldaren wrote: How do you feel about rushing to Colossi while taking your third base?
It feels like so much of a supply disparity is perhaps too difficult to overcome without splash damage.
If you rush colossi, you won't have as many because of the robo bay requirement, the robo bay cost, and their large build time. You also won't have as many sentries due to gas restrictions. Immortals are just as good dps vs roaches, are more beefy, cost much less gas, build faster, and have less tech requirements.
On May 23 2012 11:20 Xaeldaren wrote: How do you feel about rushing to Colossi while taking your third base?
It feels like so much of a supply disparity is perhaps too difficult to overcome without splash damage.
If you rush colossi, you won't have as many because of the robo bay requirement, the robo bay cost, and their large build time. You also won't have as many sentries due to gas restrictions. Immortals are just as good dps vs roaches, are more beefy, cost much less gas, build faster, and have less tech requirements.
I've been having huge difficulties in dealing with the Roaches despite taking an early (7:00 usually) third and massing Immortals, but my forcefields are incredibly poor and I find myself losing outright to multi-pronged Roach attacks or barely surviving and dying to a subsequent Muta-switch.
It felt like trying to combat so much without AOE was too hard, but you make great points and it's likely just how bad my forcefields are that are losing me games.
On May 22 2012 08:30 -MoOsE- wrote: How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend.
The robo based builds don't do too well versus the 1011-12 minute mutas. These builds are based on the assumption that zergs will fear 2 base all-ins and need to make roaches to defend them. Previously, 3 base muta was considered a very risky coin flip build in that it would 100% die to any allins. However, if Nestea has indeed found a way to make it be safe and solid, which definitely remains to be seen, then imo PvZ as a whole will need to change. The stargate build can do dandy though.
On May 22 2012 08:36 Xequecal wrote: What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural.
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it.
If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else.
The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build.
Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies.
Assuming you go for quick 3rd builds in PvZ most of the time, what map veto's do you prefer?
I veto Tal'darim and Metal for pretty obvious reasons, but I can't decide on whether to veto Antiga, Shak, or Korhal as my 3rd. Antiga has a pretty easy 3rd in PvZ, but it's tough against early eco-pools pvz (and PvT issues). Shakuras and Korhal both have very awkward thirds but doable lategame unlike Antiga IMO.
On May 22 2012 08:30 -MoOsE- wrote: How do these builds work against the new build that nestea did with the 10 minute mutas. I feel like you don't have enough to defend the mutas, and if he got drop I feel like it would then become impossible to defend.
The robo based builds don't do too well versus the 1011-12 minute mutas. These builds are based on the assumption that zergs will fear 2 base all-ins and need to make roaches to defend them. Previously, 3 base muta was considered a very risky coin flip build in that it would 100% die to any allins. However, if Nestea has indeed found a way to make it be safe and solid, which definitely remains to be seen, then imo PvZ as a whole will need to change. The stargate build can do dandy though.
On May 22 2012 08:36 Xequecal wrote: What I don't understand is how you can possibly use this style of play on maps where it is not possible to simcity such that there are always buildings between your army and the Zerg's roach ball. It works great on TDA, Daybreak, CK, Ohana, and Entombed, but what about Shakuras Plateau, Korhal Compound, or Antiga Shipyard? It's impossible to simcity such that the Zerg has to attack through buildings to reach you. If your army is at your third in any of these maps, he can just attack your natural.
Even backstabbing the roach ball with a perfect line of FFs that allows you to slaughter half the roaches with minimal losses still allows the other half of the roach ball to walk into your natural and completely destroy your economy, and probably make it up into your main to kill more stuff before you can handle it.
If you instead sit in your natural, he will just attack your third. Again a perfect FF wall will just let the other half of the trapped roach ball move forward and kill the expo nexus, and Zerg loves it when they can trade 40 cheap roaches for a nexus even if they kill almost nothing else.
The short answer is that you kind of can't. Especially Korhal and Dual Sight, imo you need to do some 2 base aggression, because hold 3 bases is incredibly hard on those maps. Shak and Antiga are hard to take a 3rd on as well, but much easier than the previously 2 mentioned maps. One nice thing is on all of these maps, Protoss aggression is better than on the standard "macro maps", so consider that when picking your build.
Another thing to note is that on all the newly released maps, "macro pvz" is very possible. Shak is very old, Antiga and Dual Sight is old, and Korhal is made by blizzard and doesn't get use from many tournies.
Assuming you go for quick 3rd builds in PvZ most of the time, what map veto's do you prefer?
I veto Tal'darim and Metal for pretty obvious reasons, but I can't decide on whether to veto Antiga, Shak, or Korhal as my 3rd. Antiga has a pretty easy 3rd in PvZ, but it's tough against early eco-pools pvz (and PvT issues). Shakuras and Korhal both have very awkward thirds but doable lategame unlike Antiga IMO.
If you're adamant on macro play, Korhal is the worst map for it. It's not a bad map for all-ins though, which probably explains the insane PvZ win rate on it.
On May 08 2012 02:30 jackalope1234 wrote: I've been tearing up the ladder with a build I've been using lately. This is high master gm players im playing. It starts with a nexus first. you then go straight into stargate while building 2 zealots and a stalker. The most important thing is the first 150 gas goes directly into stargate not upgrades or the stalker. you attack with the first void a phoenix being chronoed and the first 3 units. These also clear watchtowers and make it so the zerg doesnt know what you are doing. This is followed by 3 more gates while taking your third and constantly producing phoenix to help with harass. Ive gone as high as 7 and just dont lose them all game. They are ridiculously cost effective if controlled properly. you set up 2-5 cannons depending on how you multitask at your third while getting a robo and 3 more gates. Upgrade weapons throughout and add a second forge twilight and a 2nd robo when possible. dont add a second robo if muta but he should not be going muta vs upwards of 7 phoenix and you should scout it with your air units. With this build I've supply blocked zergs ridiculously taken a fast third killed all the queens drones free roaches, etc. It is a solid macro build vs mass roach you as you are able to entirely scout the zerg while macroing and making him produce units or spores. If he plays passively and goes fast hive just harass go for a 16 minute push with collosus stalker and usually 2/2-3/3 ups and you should be able to kill him outright. I have a million replays if anyone is interested.
Hey NrGMonk, have you had a chance to look at the build that Stardust/M18M showed in his Proleague appearance vs Roro recently? It was a 2 gate +1 zealot pressure into air build that takes a quick third around the 10 minute mark. What do you think about the viability of the build opposed to what has already been outlined in this thread? I've used it on the KR ladder with a moderate amount of success (Admittedly, only diamond level) and it seems to force the Zerg into such a position that a 12 minute max just isn't possible.
On May 24 2012 03:17 las91 wrote: Hey NrGMonk, have you had a chance to look at the build that Stardust/M18M showed in his Proleague appearance vs Roro recently? It was a 2 gate +1 zealot pressure into air build that takes a quick third around the 10 minute mark. What do you think about the viability of the build opposed to what has already been outlined in this thread? I've used it on the KR ladder with a moderate amount of success (Admittedly, only diamond level) and it seems to force the Zerg into such a position that a 12 minute max just isn't possible.
On May 24 2012 03:17 las91 wrote: Hey NrGMonk, have you had a chance to look at the build that Stardust/M18M showed in his Proleague appearance vs Roro recently? It was a 2 gate +1 zealot pressure into air build that takes a quick third around the 10 minute mark. What do you think about the viability of the build opposed to what has already been outlined in this thread? I've used it on the KR ladder with a moderate amount of success (Admittedly, only diamond level) and it seems to force the Zerg into such a position that a 12 minute max just isn't possible.
I've been doing this exact build for the last year. I think it holds close to everything with proper execution. I made a thread about it before that game even took place and I was so happy to see the dedicated macro stargate + cannons used in the proleague. I wish the zerg had put up a reasonable defense instead of sort of crumbling to the weird look that hes probably never seen before.
As he said, it's not explored enough to be proven as viable, but its sure as hell never been proven unviable.
Check out this thread for more discussion about that strategy.
Just tried the Stardust build a couple of times, and i have to say that is really fun and very good for Ohana (friendly path to 3rd plus kinda choked mid paths)
@Forgetaboutit: I'm not familiar with your build, does it have some form of pressure?
What i like from the Stardust build is that it get a pretty solid ~7:40 +1 pressure (kinda micro dependant but still, can be really good). Then once the pressure ends, you already have 2 voids out, and maybe the z don't know your tech yet. Timings are pretty tight tho, and in open maps can be harder to go out without a critical mass of air. Still, as most builds in the match up, if you play vs a Z that knows the build, he can easily rip apart it with the proper reactions.
On May 24 2012 14:36 Belha wrote: Just tried the Stardust build a couple of times, and i have to say that is really fun and very good for Ohana (friendly path to 3rd plus kinda choked mid paths)
@Forgetaboutit: I'm not familiar with your build, does it have some form of pressure?
What i like from the Stardust build is that it get a pretty solid ~7:40 +1 pressure (kinda micro dependant but still, can be really good). Then once the pressure ends, you already have 2 voids out, and maybe the z don't know your tech yet. Timings are pretty tight tho, and in open maps can be harder to go out without a critical mass of air. Still, as most builds in the match up, if you play vs a Z that knows the build, he can easily rip apart it with the proper reactions.
The opening doesn't really matter, the main theory is the midgame composition, expansion timing, and the allocation of resources. You can get to this point using a few different openings, and there is plenty of room for refinement. I've been doing a 7-8 zeal pressure from 2 gates with no gas, and no upgrades, it hits faster and is really good for scouting, I've also tried the slightly later and lower econ +1 timing, I've also gotten a few zeals to poke off 1 gate and teched a lot harder. It's hard to say whats best.
Also, I disagree with your last sentence. I have never been hard countered.
Hi all. Low master protoss here. Im strugglin' a lot against 12mins maxed roaches. What Im doing on PvZ is simple: I go either for a really greedy 3rd - 1 gate - +1 attack - robo right after cybernetics - zealot, sentry, sentry - 2~3 fast observers~ and then I get my 3rd (around 7~8ish) making simcity with 3 more gates (on the 3rd) and cannons to hold any early agression. I clear watch towers with the initial zealot and sentries to avoid scout on my 3rd. After observers are done I spam immortals like crazy. I have success holding that 12min max roches when i properly forcefield, since i'll have something like 7~8 sentries or even more when the push comes out.
OR I do the same but with fast 3 more gates on my main and a fast warpprism, dropping zealots on zerg base while getting my 3rd and again spamming immortals. I have success with both builds the huge problem is the follow up.
Zerg either try to push and trade whatever they have or go insane macro mode. That's where the problem starts: If I hold the pressure without big losses I win by counter attacking. If zerg just don't attack me I got scared of attacking (because their army is huge) and i try to catch up the army and push, which is usually too late as they get broodlords and infestors faster than I get MS + Archons. Im stuck and this is my PvZ experience nowadays.
Excellent guide and discussion so far. Nice job guys.
On May 24 2012 19:15 alexisonfire wrote: Hi all. Low master protoss here. Im strugglin' a lot against 12mins maxed roaches. What Im doing on PvZ is simple: I go either for a really greedy 3rd - 1 gate - +1 attack - robo right after cybernetics - zealot, sentry, sentry - 2~3 fast observers~ and then I get my 3rd (around 7~8ish) making simcity with 3 more gates (on the 3rd) and cannons to hold any early agression. I clear watch towers with the initial zealot and sentries to avoid scout on my 3rd. After observers are done I spam immortals like crazy. I have success holding that 12min max roches when i properly forcefield, since i'll have something like 7~8 sentries or even more when the push comes out.
OR I do the same but with fast 3 more gates on my main and a fast warpprism, dropping zealots on zerg base while getting my 3rd and again spamming immortals. I have success with both builds the huge problem is the follow up.
Zerg either try to push and trade whatever they have or go insane macro mode. That's where the problem starts: If I hold the pressure without big losses I win by counter attacking. If zerg just don't attack me I got scared of attacking (because their army is huge) and i try to catch up the army and push, which is usually too late as they get broodlords and infestors faster than I get MS + Archons. Im stuck and this is my PvZ experience nowadays.
Excellent guide and discussion so far. Nice job guys.
I like the fast warp prism into a 3rd, it's similar to the build TT1 uses. What he does is push out early with a Zealot/Stalker to trick Zerg into making a few extra lings, and also to get a pylon closer to the 3rd so he can warp a few zealots. After the warp-ins force Zerg to make roaches earlier than they want, he drops 4 sentries into the main mineral line (delay mining, kill a few workers) while he takes a 3rd base and moves into Immortal/Sentry and eventually colossus. My build was so thrown off by the pressure that my max out roach style arrived late, only to be mutilated by 3base Sentry/Immortal/Colossus:
On May 24 2012 14:36 Belha wrote: Just tried the Stardust build a couple of times, and i have to say that is really fun and very good for Ohana (friendly path to 3rd plus kinda choked mid paths)
@Forgetaboutit: I'm not familiar with your build, does it have some form of pressure?
What i like from the Stardust build is that it get a pretty solid ~7:40 +1 pressure (kinda micro dependant but still, can be really good). Then once the pressure ends, you already have 2 voids out, and maybe the z don't know your tech yet. Timings are pretty tight tho, and in open maps can be harder to go out without a critical mass of air. Still, as most builds in the match up, if you play vs a Z that knows the build, he can easily rip apart it with the proper reactions.
The opening doesn't really matter, the main theory is the midgame composition, expansion timing, and the allocation of resources. You can get to this point using a few different openings, and there is plenty of room for refinement. I've been doing a 7-8 zeal pressure from 2 gates with no gas, and no upgrades, it hits faster and is really good for scouting, I've also tried the slightly later and lower econ +1 timing, I've also gotten a few zeals to poke off 1 gate and teched a lot harder. It's hard to say whats best.
Imo, the match up is kinda a race, where z starts slowly and got a sick boost from minute 7:30 and on. I don't agree with "the opening doesn't really matter". If you want whatever mid game plan is to success, you must have certain and an acording early game plan. I've seen pretty good mid-game ideas, but withouth a solid and smart earlygame base pressure, is just dust. I love your build idea, but if we want it to be mainstream class, the most efficient press must be identified. I agree that you need more that one early game plan tho, to mislead the z.
In the case of the Stardust build, the main steps connect so nicely, that makes it pretty easy to learn and very smooth. And i guess that if it have the korean seal, it should be efficient ^^
@Tang: Thx a lot for the idea/replay. I remember watching a squirtle vs stephano game with a pretty similar build, but i totally forgot to "study" the build (classic when watching reps -.-"). Edit: Nvm, checked the rep, Squirtle went zealot-stalker then void pressure, then robo-prism/sentry, then 3rd.
well of course the opening technically matters, I mean you can't cut probes on 8 or do something stupid. You have to be efficient, but I figured we were assuming this.
For example, if I'm talking about Mech TvP midgame, I could say, the opening doesn't matter. This doesn't mean you throw up buildings at random, it means select from something with a reasonable transition. 1-1-1, 1rax FE, CC first, Proxy Helions, whatever.
I've been trying out something like what NrGMonk has been talking about...fast robo, slightly delayed 3rd compared to some of the ultrafast 3rd builds that were discussed in kcdc's thread on Stephano-roach-max.
Here are two representative reps. Bear in mind that I'm a mid/high-masters player, so these aren't going to be high-master/GM quality and may not be indicative of what works there/is ideal.
On May 24 2012 19:15 alexisonfire wrote: Hi all. Low master protoss here. Im strugglin' a lot against 12mins maxed roaches. What Im doing on PvZ is simple: I go either for a really greedy 3rd - 1 gate - +1 attack - robo right after cybernetics - zealot, sentry, sentry - 2~3 fast observers~ and then I get my 3rd (around 7~8ish) making simcity with 3 more gates (on the 3rd) and cannons to hold any early agression. I clear watch towers with the initial zealot and sentries to avoid scout on my 3rd. After observers are done I spam immortals like crazy. I have success holding that 12min max roches when i properly forcefield, since i'll have something like 7~8 sentries or even more when the push comes out.
OR I do the same but with fast 3 more gates on my main and a fast warpprism, dropping zealots on zerg base while getting my 3rd and again spamming immortals. I have success with both builds the huge problem is the follow up.
Zerg either try to push and trade whatever they have or go insane macro mode. That's where the problem starts: If I hold the pressure without big losses I win by counter attacking. If zerg just don't attack me I got scared of attacking (because their army is huge) and i try to catch up the army and push, which is usually too late as they get broodlords and infestors faster than I get MS + Archons. Im stuck and this is my PvZ experience nowadays.
Excellent guide and discussion so far. Nice job guys.
If he's going for the mass roach style, you don't need MS + Archons. The only reason 200/200 mass roach works is because you're down so much in supply when he hits. You are ridiculously cost effective, it's just his production and supply advantage. Build up for another minute or two with Immortal/Stalker/Sentry and then go kill him at like 160-180 supply or something. They'll be screwed. Making 200/200 roaches and not attacking with them is like you Immortal/Sentry all-ining and then deciding not to attack. It's just bad.
At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
He saw the roach/ling moving out much earlier than you would for a max timing and with no roach speed with his stargate units.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
I watched the replay, and Stephano was actually going for his trademark roach play into MC's 3rd, but he realized he forgot roach speed and abandoned this strategy. This is why MC was so easily able to kill him later on. Stephano's build needs to do some damage or it will die to pushes like those.
I'm also fairly sure that MC knew that Stephano would go for his roach push, because he scouted Stephano's gas count and roaches rallying to his 3rd. Seeing slow roaches doesn't preclude this push, because roach speed could potentially finish at any time. I wouldn't say MC definitely would have lost to the push, but that build that MC used seems very hard to defend. Keep in mind, however, that the map is rather good for defending and MC holds these pushes better than anyone else.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote:I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
I'm high masters and routinely hold off aggression with no Robo (double Stargate)
I've been trying out Puzzle's fast robo build and I like the style of play and it feels very safe, however, I find myself floating tons of gas early on in the game. I'm just not sure what to spend it on. I find myself making 12+sentries by the 12 min mark and still floating around 400 gas. Is there some sort of tech I should be getting earlier? I'm currently a platinum player so my macro is not the best, but I'm still astonished at the amount of gas I always seem to have leftover.
On May 29 2012 03:19 xDnDx wrote: I've been trying out Puzzle's fast robo build and I like the style of play and it feels very safe, however, I find myself floating tons of gas early on in the game. I'm just not sure what to spend it on. I find myself making 12+sentries by the 12 min mark and still floating around 400 gas. Is there some sort of tech I should be getting earlier? I'm currently a platinum player so my macro is not the best, but I'm still astonished at the amount of gas I always seem to have leftover.
A replay would be nice but it sounds like you are taking the gasses at your nat and third a bit too fast; try comparing your timings with the vods in the op.
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote: At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals.
I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight?
The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
I watched the replay, and Stephano was actually going for his trademark roach play into MC's 3rd, but he realized he forgot roach speed and abandoned this strategy. This is why MC was so easily able to kill him later on. Stephano's build needs to do some damage or it will die to pushes like those.
I'm also fairly sure that MC knew that Stephano would go for his roach push, because he scouted Stephano's gas count and roaches rallying to his 3rd. Seeing slow roaches doesn't preclude this push, because roach speed could potentially finish at any time. I wouldn't say MC definitely would have lost to the push, but that build that MC used seems very hard to defend. Keep in mind, however, that the map is rather good for defending and MC holds these pushes better than anyone else.
thanks for the analysis. I've been getting killed in my PvZs when I come up against the 12 min max, but then again, my mechanics are shit. Guess I'm just gonna have to keep grinding out games until I can hold it.
On May 29 2012 03:19 xDnDx wrote: I've been trying out Puzzle's fast robo build and I like the style of play and it feels very safe, however, I find myself floating tons of gas early on in the game. I'm just not sure what to spend it on. I find myself making 12+sentries by the 12 min mark and still floating around 400 gas. Is there some sort of tech I should be getting earlier? I'm currently a platinum player so my macro is not the best, but I'm still astonished at the amount of gas I always seem to have leftover.
One of the strengths of that build is not getting too many sentries, because you get them so early to build up energy. Puzzle never makes more than 6 and 12 is way too much. You do float a bit of gas with the Puzzle build though, but not enough for 6 extra sentries. Consider taking your natural gas later or your 3rd gas later. I also suspect that you have some macro problems if this indeed happens. But yea you need a replay.
Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro?
On May 29 2012 10:23 xDnDx wrote: Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro?
It's by far mostly poor macro. I watched the game and noticed that you have lots of skips in probe production and have very high chronoboost energy, which you should be heavily used on probes in this build. As a reference, you have 64 supply at 9 minutes while Puzzle has 77 supply. At 11 minutes, you have 83 supply with 750/700 in the bank while Puzzle has 111 supply. With poor probe production, your mineral income will hurt, while your gas income remains unaffected, because you always have 12 probes in gas. This is why you float so much gas when you attempt this build.
On May 29 2012 10:23 xDnDx wrote: Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro?
It's by far mostly poor macro. I watched the game and noticed that you have lots of skips in probe production and have very high chronoboost energy, which you should be heavily used on probes in this build. As a reference, you have 64 supply at 9 minutes while Puzzle has 77 supply. At 11 minutes, you have 83 supply with 750/700 in the bank while Puzzle has 111 supply. With poor probe production, your mineral income will hurt, while your gas income remains unaffected, because you always have 12 probes in gas. This is why you float so much gas when you attempt this build.
Thanks for the help. I've been trying to improve my probe production in the past few days and had this happen. http://drop.sc/188937 In a game like this when would I want to get tech and a 4th base? I just kind of guessed the colossi timing and ended up not using them at all. Should I be getting them earlier? Also it seems like I'm getting an extra immortal rather than 2 stalkers by the 12 min mark, is that still okay or should I be favoring army size? Lastly, is it safe to have your army positioned the way i had it? I felt somewhat exposed and wasted a lot of FF on lings. Again, thanks for the guide(s)/build(s) and the feedback, really helps a lot.
MC uses a variation of Puzzle's Robo centric macro build all through MLG Spring Arena 2 and Red Bull Arena. His games against DRG are good case studies of this build. The variation is that he spends his first trickle of gas on +1, warp gates and sentries before getting a robo, and adds the twilight quite late. In the games vs DRG, he gets a fast robo bay, which might be in response to seeing DRG get an infestation pit.
That being said, there needs to be some sort of pressure earlier than the one mentioned since its quite hard to punish zergs who drone straight to 90-100 drones and spine their bases v heavily. I've tried hitting an earlier timing with archons instead of colossi since I can move out and warp in 3-4 archons at the front, hitting about a minute or so before a colossi based push does. However, this sort of push has trouble against spine walls. Either way, heavy spining can delay the push long enough for broods to be out. Maybe take a quick fourth and keep chronos on probes? Speed prism dt zealot drops?
On May 29 2012 10:23 xDnDx wrote: Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro?
It's by far mostly poor macro. I watched the game and noticed that you have lots of skips in probe production and have very high chronoboost energy, which you should be heavily used on probes in this build. As a reference, you have 64 supply at 9 minutes while Puzzle has 77 supply. At 11 minutes, you have 83 supply with 750/700 in the bank while Puzzle has 111 supply. With poor probe production, your mineral income will hurt, while your gas income remains unaffected, because you always have 12 probes in gas. This is why you float so much gas when you attempt this build.
Thanks for the help. I've been trying to improve my probe production in the past few days and had this happen. http://drop.sc/188937 In a game like this when would I want to get tech and a 4th base? I just kind of guessed the colossi timing and ended up not using them at all. Should I be getting them earlier? Also it seems like I'm getting an extra immortal rather than 2 stalkers by the 12 min mark, is that still okay or should I be favoring army size? Lastly, is it safe to have your army positioned the way i had it? I felt somewhat exposed and wasted a lot of FF on lings. Again, thanks for the guide(s)/build(s) and the feedback, really helps a lot.
I can't really say, because your opponent played very badly and because you had a relatively clean build, anything you would have done would have won. Get your transition tech(robo bay, templar archives) or prepare for a push(add gateways) as soon as you deem it's safe to, that is as soon as you know that dedicated roach push won't be coming. You should have known way in advance from scouting double evo and 6 gas. You definitely don't want your army in the position it was in at that timing, even if your opponent isn't going for the roach spam. Any pressure will cause you to lose more units than you would want.
First of all, GREAT job Monk. Simply put, awesome. Thank you :3
I've been looking for a guide on stargate openings and this is exactly what i needed! Could you be able to provide some replays of the build? I find vod's extremely hard to study. I know that with the benchmarks I really have all I need, but it's always nice to see a player's PoV, so that you really get their reactions and stuff.
Glad someone ressurrected this, it's a great overview.
Monk: Since you said you've looked at a lot of variations including earlier thirds, I have a question for you, given the current state of PvZ.
Assuming the following:
1. You know zerg is going gasless 4:00 third 2. You are able to shoo away his few lings with zealots and take a third between 5:00 - 6:00
What is the best follow up tech path to hold the expected 7:00 roach warren and large scale roach aggression by 9:00? Do you think it's possible to hold, assuming you can fend off light ling pressure until the third finishes?
On June 28 2012 05:07 Daimai wrote: Anyone has any idea how to deal with muta/ling/roach aggression with these builds?
Both macro pressure (pressure while taking a 4th and teching BL infestor) and allinish pressure where zerg stays on 3 base.
Don't really understand this question. You have to be way more specific.
On June 30 2012 04:04 quillian wrote: Glad someone ressurrected this, it's a great overview.
Monk: Since you said you've looked at a lot of variations including earlier thirds, I have a question for you, given the current state of PvZ.
Assuming the following:
1. You know zerg is going gasless 4:00 third 2. You are able to shoo away his few lings with zealots and take a third between 5:00 - 6:00
What is the best follow up tech path to hold the expected 7:00 roach warren and large scale roach aggression by 9:00? Do you think it's possible to hold, assuming you can fend off light ling pressure until the third finishes?
I think it depends on the map way more than anything. For example, on Antiga, any build you do will be vulnerable to a roach max, while on Entombed, you can get away with mostly anything. I think the best follow-up to a fast 3rd is definitely a very fast robo for immortals. Then, you can decide if you want an early twilight or a later twilight. I personally like robo expands better, as they offer you more immortals, more sentry energy, better scouting, and don't die to fast speedling aggression.