EPTRegarding ultras, you want zealots, immortals and archons to beat ultras which is exactly the composition that this build produces, so again, ultras should only give you trouble if you're way behind. Building ultras against this build seems like a flat-out bad decision for Z. Ultras are used in ZvP because they're good against stalkers, colossi and sentries, of which this build produces none.
[G] Stalkerless PvZ - Page 9
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Regarding ultras, you want zealots, immortals and archons to beat ultras which is exactly the composition that this build produces, so again, ultras should only give you trouble if you're way behind. Building ultras against this build seems like a flat-out bad decision for Z. Ultras are used in ZvP because they're good against stalkers, colossi and sentries, of which this build produces none. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:17 kcdc wrote: Ling/baneling should lose pretty hard to zealots with storm support, so I'm not sure what's giving you trouble. Dealing with corruptors is just about having enough voids and supporting them with storms. In my experience, voids+storm handles corruptors quite efficiently, so you should only lose air superiority if you've fallen well behind in macro. Maybe you're finding it difficult to storm both the banelings and the corruptors? Do you have a replay in mind? No, just curious =P. I do a similar style but I transition to colossi after versus ling baneling and don't make as many voidrays. Do you have a replay of this style versus ling/bane? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Eifer
United States138 Posts
The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20. From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts? | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On January 26 2012 08:34 Eifersuchtig wrote: Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20. From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts? Could you link a replay? My MMR isn't as high as yours, but Goswer did this to me at one point and I just reverse allind him to win. Granted that's not the best response. I think that you should consider getting ~5 or so phoenix to ward off muta harass while taking a quick third and teching to blink. Your stalker count should remain fairly healthy if you don't see him continually massing muta (in which case zealots and storm tech would be needed). The other alternative would be to do something like after scouting the spire, drop a second stargate, chrono phoenix almost exclusively and attack him before he has the gas for roaches while securing his third. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 26 2012 08:34 Eifersuchtig wrote: Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20. From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts? Can you post a replay? I've never seen 2-base mutas pop that fast and was curious about his BO. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 26 2012 08:34 Eifersuchtig wrote: Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20. From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts? The guide is written with the assumption that Z goes for a fast third, so it doesn't cover 2-base muta. Honestly, I suck against 2-base muta, so I might not be much help. As a general rule, against 2-base, you either need to start double phoenix production before the spire completes so that you can keep his muta count low or you need to get blink stalkers and a relatively fast third. I don't think a zealot-void opening is optimal against 2-base Z, but if you didn't get a fast 2nd stargate and scout the spire early, you're going to need a lot of stalkers. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
I have some questions about mutas though: Do you recommand going blink stalkers with storm or phoenix if you see mutas, or both? Should I start massing carriers after I secure my bases from mutalisk harassess or try to be offensive with the army I already have? Since if he builds a wall of spine crawlers and get broodlords and infestors behind the mutas, I can be pretty screwed without carriers. Since I'll probably make stalkers against mutas, I have less gas for carriers and archons, maybe I should use a more mineral heavy solution to mutas like lots of cannons to afford getting archons and carriers? | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
vortex has a 3 second slowdown time before it can cast. ive tested it a ton and if the mothership ever moves a slight amount it needs to stop and perform a slowdown before it can fire a vortex. never engage the mothership when its standing still, wait for it to move 20 corrupters can kill the mothership in about a second before it can fire the vortex. then run them away so they arent toasted by archons archons splash against air is insane. air units bunch up and archons do like full splash to a few air units thats already like 130 damage per attack the most powerful way to use the mothership in PvZ imo is to make the mothership practically the tosses only air unit, and the zerg is forced to make 20 corrupters to counter a single air unit, meaning his ground force is ahead of you by 32 supply since you needed 40 supply to counter a 8supply unit. the OP talks about using mothership with carriers which i will talk about later, however most zergs are already complaining that the mothership itself is overpowered when the above tactic is used. I will explain now how to counter the above tactic first then i will get into the carrier stuff after Assuming the toss is using the "mothership is only air unit" tactic, heres how you deal with that. after running away you need to buy time while some broodlords morph. pump out loads of roaches, a few ultralisks imo which help to buffer the attack while your broodlords morph because they are so tanky. also dont get more then 2-3 infestors because you need that gas for roaches/ultralisks since lings die so fast to storm (which is what makes the mothership only air unit strat so powerful, because the toss also has storm with his army and you need 40supply of corrupters to counter the 8food mothership) pretty much, as zerg you need to be able to hold off a 132food toss ground army (that has no collossi, but has storm) with a 100food zerg ground army. it is very hard, however if you mass only pure roach and ultralisk with your 20corrupters its totally possible to defend long enough to buy time for your broodlords to morph. just defend as well as you can with roaches and ultralisks and remember to keep your 2-3 infestors AT YOUR BASE ready for defense, and after the mothership dies when the toss attacks you should be able to use your 2-3 infestors to get off 4-6 fungals which should destroy tons of stalkers combined with roaches/ultralisks that was the explanation of how to beat the "mothership is the only air unit, and the toss has archons" strategy many toss are using against zerg lategame and most zergs are actually complaining about when it comes to PvZ. the OP talks about a carrier strategy and honestly Id say the solution to that is get lots of corrupters and queens added to your army. Im sure its powerful, but as long as zerg can take out the mothership before a archon toilet then he should be able to win. Pretty much, if a protoss GETS OFF one archon toilet, he should win the game. However, archon toilet is easy to counter using the 20 corrupter method, so against a good zerg who knows the counter the protoss should never be able to get off an archon toilet. Zerg should never make more than 13 broodlords against toss, and if the toss gets a mothership the zerg better start killing units or drones in order to increase his corrupter count to 20. If the zerg has LESS THAN 20 corrupters, and his 13 broodlords get archon toileted, the zerg has only himself to blame. The zerg needs to kill off his roaches/workers/whatever and do whatever he can to increase his corrupter count to 20 in order to counter the mothership, and if the zerg doesnt do that then the mothership will kill all his broodlords instantly like it should | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Against mutas, I recommend getting blink and playing standard anti-muta. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788 Basically, get a lot of warpgates, good upgrades, storm, and keep expanding with lots of cannons and plenty of observers to let you know where to position your stalkers. When Z switches to broodlords, it's time to for you to transition to void/carrier/mothership. Use your mobility advantage to force the broodlords to play defense if you need to buy time. roymarthyup: Yes, it's possible to kill a mothership, but the vulnerability of the mothership is precisely the reason that Protoss gets carriers since the range of the carrier allows P to deal with infestor+broodlord even without vortex. Honestly, it sounds like you've never played against void/carrier with storm, so I'm not sure why you typed up an explanation for how to beat it. Mass corruptor with splitting and storm-dodging micro is Zerg's best response to void+carrier+archon+storm, but honestly, it's not that good. The other options (hydras, mutas) are just worse. Queens are a good addition to the corruptor force as they don't die to storms, they have decent AA damage, and transfuse is really good. But if Protoss has time to max out with almost pure archon/carrier/void/HT, there's not much Z can do even if the mothership is dead. Corruptors are only okay against void/carrier, and with storms and archons adding a ton of splash damage, you'd be surprised how little corruptors actually accomplish before dying. | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
Something so cool about seeing a Protoss army composed purely of power units. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
http://drop.sc/99207 http://drop.sc/99206 The replay vs hippopotamus is a good template for what the game can look like if P doesn't make big mistakes. Z never develops an econ lead, loses 3x as much in each fight, and ragequits after his 2nd maxed broodlord army dies for free. The replay vs dakkon is a lot less clean. My zealot+void timing is a minute late because he went gas into pool and I was worried about a baneling bust, but his opening sacrificed econ, so even tho my timing was weaker, it still kept me on even economy with Z. After that, he got a late jump scouting my third and his attack failed miserably. From there, it should have been an easy win, but I took some silly map awareness damage to hydras and lings (pretty embarrassing when I had 10 storms) and then in the first late-game fight, I got my templars fungaled to death before I stormed, so I lost all my air to hydras. I still came back and won tho because that lategame comp is imba. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Stuff like this getting more and more viable is a result of the (IMO unnecessary and unjustified) nerf to neural parasite. The Mothership being the big problem oddly enough. Theoretically, Zerg should just be able to charge toward a 5 base endgame once P takes his 3rd, but there is no way to realistically deal with the Mothership outside of Corruptors (which have been bad since day 1) and neural Parasite (which now requires Infestors to be basically in the middle of the Protoss army before it can be cast) so it doesn't really matter what kind of income you have when nothing can shoot the thing making the entire protoss army invisible and slamming down vortex when needed. Good build. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On January 29 2012 02:37 Jermstuddog wrote: Very nice build... very annoying. Stuff like this getting more and more viable is a result of the (IMO unnecessary and unjustified) nerf to neural parasite. The Mothership being the big problem oddly enough. Theoretically, Zerg should just be able to charge toward a 5 base endgame once P takes his 3rd, but there is no way to realistically deal with the Mothership outside of Corruptors (which have been bad since day 1) and neural Parasite (which now requires Infestors to be basically in the middle of the Protoss army before it can be cast) so it doesn't really matter what kind of income you have when nothing can shoot the thing making the entire protoss army invisible and slamming down vortex when needed. Good build. Mothership is underpowered, look at some dimaga replays. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 29 2012 03:23 Lebzetu wrote: Mothership is underpowered, look at some dimaga replays. Like the one where JYP archon toilets 3/4 dimaga's Broodlords and wins right there? I'm not saying it's imba, just pointing out that I think the Mothership is actually a rather large part of the build. As far as Carrier/Voidray/Archon/storm, I think you could BL/corruptor your way through that pretty easily in a late game scenario. Vortex & archon toilet is the play-maker, don't try to underplay it. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
-siege Zerg buildings from range with ~4 carriers to make Z bring his army to me -storm corruptors if they're ahead of the pack -FEEDBACK INFESTORS (most important in-battle micro) -blanket Z in storms -vortex -target fire void rays on corruptors, then broodlords -put archons in vortex if I have any left Archon toilet is great when Z lets you vortex a ton of his army, but it's a win-harder move that's unreliable and unnecessary. I find that my army performs almost as well without the mothership. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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