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This guide will describe a strong 4-base turtle-into-deathball style of PvZ that completely forgoes stalkers, sentries and colossi. It was inspired by watching rsvp dominate Zerg after Zerg on his stream with a very similar build.
Theory:
Weapons upgraded carriers with archon, void ray, mothership and psi storm support are close to unbeatable for any Zerg composition, regardless of the Zerg's economy. Zerg's only units that can hit carriers (hydras, corruptors, mutas) are killed quickly by storms and archons, and with vortex to cut Zerg's army into halves, Protoss can win maxed fights essentially without losses.
This sort of deathball is rarely seen in PvZ because it's extremely gas-intensive, and common PvZ strategies that lean heavily on blink stalkers and/or colossi are unable to spare the gas for a templar+mass air transition until the super-late game when they've cut the map in half and are on 6+ bases. But if you cut the stalkers and colossi out, you can craft this deathball on 4 bases at roughly ~20 min gametime depending how the game has gone to that point.
When to use this strategy:
This build can be used against Zerg's standard double-expand response to a FFE. If Zerg is doing something funky, don't use this strategy.
This build is also relatively vulnerable in the early lair phase of the game between 11 and 15 minutes while you're trying to defend your third. Because of this, it is best used on maps with an easily defended third.
Build Skeleton:
-FFE -+1 zealot and void ray timing -tech storm -11 minute third -defend with immortals, storms, void rays and zealots -take fourth -build mothership and carriers
Execution:
Phase 1:
+ Show Spoiler +Open with a forge fast expand. Confirm that Zerg is playing standard by either scouting a third base or scouting that Z is not mining gas beyond 100. If Z opens with a speedling expand, you have a narrow window before speed finishes where it will be possible to scout whether Z has continued to mine gas, so be sure that your probe gets in there before 5 minutes.
We want to execute a zealot+void timing at about 8 minutes, so our early game is geared around getting this attack out quickly. Start your gateway ASAP. Most often, you will place your gateway on 17/18 before your cannon or 2nd pylon, but depending on Z's pool timing, you may need to get a cannon first.
Build 2 assimilators after your 2nd pylon while your gateway warps in. Fill them with probes as soon as they finish. Build your cyber core at as the gate finishes, and begin WG tech as soon as the core finishes.
Spend your next 150 gas on a stargate, and the following 100 gas on +1 weapons. When you have 300 minerals, add 2 gateways. Depending how your macro has gone to this point, you may be able to start only 1 gateway before starting your first void ray. That's okay--the void ray is more important.
Spend your chronoboost on WG tech, +1 weapons and your first void ray. Make sure to use the chronoboost energy on your main nexus as it will hit 100 if you don't click it individually to spend its energy.
Use your first zealot and a probe to secure a proxy pylon as close to Z's third as possible. Hiding a probe on the map is a good idea, but good Zerg players are very active scouting for hidden probes, so it doesn't always work out.
If everything goes smoothly, you can have 5 +1 zealots (2 built from your gate, 3 warped in) and a void ray at Zerg's third by approximately 8 minutes. We don't need to do big damage with this push, but we do need to slow Zerg's droning. If you hit the 8 minute timing, Zerg can't have 45+ drones and an adequate defense, so you want to punish Z if they've over-droned. Be sure to target fire your void rays on roaches and spines, and don't let your zealots chase units in circles. Have them hit the hatchery rather than chase a microing queen.
If Z hasn't over-droned, try to preserve your units if you see roaches and queens in place. Pick off what you can what you can with the voids and use the zealots if you see a favorable situation.
Whether you do big damage or have to back off, this timing attack keeps your 2-base economy more or less even with Zerg's economy.
Phase 2:
+ Show Spoiler +While you're putting the finishing touches on preparing your timing attack, you need to begin setting up your transition to templar/void/immortal. With chronoboost on storm tech, it takes 3 minutes from the time that you start your twilight council to finish storm, and we need it by ~11 minutes, so at 8 minutes, invest in a twilight council. Add a robotics facility when resources (and micro) allow, and a templar archives as soon as the twilight finishes. Research storm and build 2 templar when the archives finishes. Build an observer out of your robotics facility and then constantly produce immortals more or less until lategame. This is one of the most difficult stages of the build because you need to be macroing efficiently toward templar while you're doing a micro-intensive zealot-void attack. After your second or third void ray (depending on the game state), build a phoenix to scout Z's chosen lair tech. Most often, it will be roach-hydra, but this build has little AA and cannot afford to be surprised by mutas. If you see a spire, you're in good position with storm, a twilight council, a stargate, and a timely third, but you need to scout the spire before muta production begins in order to adjust. This build leaves you with the infrastructure to deal with a muta transition. For information on how to play against muta from this point, see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788. As your zealot-void attack winds down and storm completes, take your third. This can be as early as 10:30 or as late as 12:00 depending on the game state. At this point, you should also know Z's chosen lair tech. If you see a hydralisk den, Z is going to be annoyed at your choice to take a fairly quick third while teching straight toward late-game, and will throw wave after wave of roach-hydra try to break you. An infestation pit signals roughly the same thing, except with less AA and quicker hive tech. This is the vulnerable stage of the build, but in my experience, you can reliably defend if you play well. Continue constant immortal and void ray production chronoboosting immortals, spend your gas on templar and your minerals on zealots, pylons and gateways. You're turtling, so massing cannons will be tempting, but Z will likely have a choice of multiple points to attack, so if you invest too much in cannons, you'll likely die at the spot that you had less cannons. After a couple cannons at strategic location near your third where they might also be useful against an attack against your natural, zealots are a better investment. Also, I don't recommend investing in charge too early. The zealots are there to tank damage, and they'll do that with or without charge. Research charge after you've defended an attack successfully and you feel that your third is safe. Target hydras first with your storms, and do your best to retain your void rays and immortals as these are the backbone of your army. If you can survive the first wave without having your immortals and voids cleaned out, you've probably won. Remember to always include at least 2 templar in your in-battle reinforcement round. It's tempting to warp in only zealots because they'll be able to fight immediately, but you'll have morphed your templar into archons during the fight and you'll need to start accruing storm energy ASAP in order to defend the next wave. Zerg is going to throw wave after wave at you until you break or you outproduce him, and if you're ever caught without storms, the game can quickly spiral out of control. Make a point to think about having storms to defend the next wave even if you're freaking out wondering how you will defend what's already at your door. After I feel that I have enough storms banked up that I'm not in any immediate danger (maybe around 100 or 120 supply), I like to add my 2nd stargate. You can sometimes hit a point of diminishing return where more storms, zealots, and even immortals won't do as much for you, but more voids is almost always a very good thing, and having a second stargate can help against a late batch of mutas. If you're set on zealots and templar and feel like you can bring the fight to Z, you can also make a round of stalkers and push, but be very careful about engaging on creep. Zealots and storms are both MUCH better off creep, so expect your army to feel a lot weaker when it's used offensively. If you find yourself dying at this stage, watch your replays to find out what you could have done better. Usually, if I die during this phase, I find that either my storm was late, my void/immortal production had big idle gaps, or I failed to punish an over-droning Z with my zealot-void timing.
Phase 3:
+ Show Spoiler +After you've stabilized on 3 bases with your immortal/void ray backbone in place, it's time to take a fourth. If you've defended the 3-base stage of the game successfully, your army will be much stronger than any lair tech Zerg army, and it shouldn't be too hard to move out into the middle of map for your fourth.
The only composition that can give you trouble at this point is infestor-broodlord, so you you want to be aware of Zerg's hive transition. Keep your scout phoenix alive to keep tabs on Zerg's base count and his hive timing. As soon as you see a hive, add a fleet beacon and begin your carrier transition. If the hive is late, you can start your carrier transition whenever you feel comfortable on 4 bases.
If you haven't been able to defend your third cleanly and Z is able to reach hive tech before you secure your fourth, you still need a fleet beacon and you can start your transition to your carrier deatbhall before you take your fourth, but you're definitely behind at this point.
When you decide to begin your carrier transition, you should get +1 air weapons, a fleet beacon, and 4-5 stargates. Carriers are there to provide range against broodlords and resilience against fungals, so after 5-6, you can switch back to void rays since they're better against corruptors.
As you max out, sacrifice your zealots to add more archons and carriers. Try to trade them for hatcheries at remote bases, but either way, you want the supply freed up.
Once your deathball is complete, attack and win. Vortex and archon toilet corruptors and storm everything in sight.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/99207 http://drop.sc/99206 http://drop.sc/85237 http://drop.sc/84705 http://drop.sc/84706 http://drop.sc/84708 http://drop.sc/84709 http://drop.sc/84711 http://drop.sc/84712 http://drop.sc/84713 -- loss where I get overwhelmed during the early lair phase of the game.
Build inventor's thoughts:
This guide describes rsvp's build (with some small modifications I've found helpful), and he's way better than I am, so I think it makes sense to add his thoughts--and his higher level replays--to the OP.
On January 06 2012 08:10 coL.rsvp wrote:Thanks for writing up this guide. I'm honored  Here are my comments on some of the things discussed, I only briefly read through everything so let me know if I missed something that's still under debate. Defending the 3rd: Yes this is the weakest point of this build, but it's far from impossible and if you play around a bit and get used to the timings it becomes easier. Pretty much it just revolves around having storm ready, otherwise you can't kill the hydras. Actually a lot of my games involve the the zerg killing my 3rd before I have enough to defend (i.e. storm 30 seconds from being done), then when storm finally finishes I can clean up his push, so effectively I'm trading my 3rd for his army. But this army composition is so strong that I can still win with that temporary eco disadvantage as long as I still have my core of tech units alive (voids/immortals/HTs/archons etc.). 2 stargate vs 1 stargate: Like kcdc mentioned, one thing I do differently from this guide is that I add a 2nd stargate instead of an earlier robo/immortals. It's personal preference really, and both should work, since the main goal of both is to counter roaches (I make extra voids to counter roaches, this guide goes for faster/more immortals to counter roaches). I like voids better because they are more mobile so I can also use them to deny the zerg's 4th and harass the main/expos. Chrono'ed gateway vs chrono'ed warpgate tech: Both styles will get you a nice force of +1 zeals at the 8:00 mark. The difference is that if you chrono your gateway (or even go dual gateway after FFE), you get those zealots earlier which help with 2 things: breaking down your rocks to get ready to expand to your 3rd, and also perhaps to have even better early game scouting/pressure. If you chrono your warpgate tech, reinforcements to keep the pressure on the zerg's 3rd become much easier especially if he's not really ready to defend against the zealots. I recommend chronoing gateway for maps like tal darim and shattered where you need to break down rocks for your 3rd, and chronoing warpgate tech for all other maps. HT vs colossus: Colossus is the more popular route and I've seen a lot of players go 2 stargate > 2 robo colo. Both styles are viable, I would just play around with both to see what you like better. Strategically, the main difference is that mass corruptor is a great counter to stargate > colo play, whereas mass corruptor will fail hard against stargate > HT play. That's another reason why I like to open 2 stargate - some zergs will see my mass air and respond with corruptors to both help counter my air and also to counter the colo that they are expecting to see me transition into. Then I win with HT. However, if you transition into colo it does become a bit easier to hold off those mid game roach/hydra attacks on your 3rd. Best zerg response? Hydras are the worst answer possible, and it falls into exactly what the Protoss wants the zerg to do. While a roach/hydra mid-game attack on the protoss's 3rd is really strong, if you fail to win the game at that timing you've lost the game. The ratio of roach:hydra is also very difficult, since you basically just want just enough hydra to defend against voids, because too many = you lose to mass zeal because not enough roaches, and not enough = lose to voids/storm. Infestors are ok, but the protoss already has a lot of HT so it's not the best response. Corruptors are bad too because since not only do they don't exactly counter voids, they're expensive and you just lose the ground battle if you overmake corruptors. Roach > muta is really good in my experience. Plain mass roach/ling while expanding is good too (think mondragon style roaches > voids) if you keep counter attacking and not letting the protoss get their 3rd, and then eventually you can switch to whatever and win because it's 4 or 5 base to 2. Queens are also great, if you get good creep spread then roach/queen/infestor is extremely powerful against this. Some replays for you (may be 1-2 month old, haven't played too much recently/holidays) http://drop.sc/63059http://drop.sc/63060http://drop.sc/58587http://drop.sc/58588
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So, read it through, and I might be rediculous, but; Mass Queen + Neural + Corruptor? Hell, even MASS Neural, as supply permits, though that miught be gimmicky
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Neural doesn't have much range, and you can just focus fire any infestors that do manage to get it off.
I've never seen a Z go mass queen in late game. It doesn't sound like it would work, but I know hydras don't work at all and corruptors don't work well, so maybe they should try queens.
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Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over. And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans. What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers.
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On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over.
read the guide? roach/hydra is what you want to face.
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I highly recommend this build. I've faced similar builds to it in the past, and it's incredibly powerful if you don't manage to bust it as the toss is taking his third.
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Finally! I was starting to feel kinda bad, always being in the driving seat in ZvP. It'll make a nice change to have to play reactively, with a deadline for ending the game before it becomes nigh unwinnable.

Nice guide. I look forward to getting crushed by it.
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On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over. And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans. What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers.
I bet you didnt watch some replays :D
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I think this style is interesting, but perhaps a bit vulnerable. How would you deal with the 3base aggressive roach/ling Stephano-style? I feel like with no sentries, you're pretty vulnerable to these types of counter-attacks. If they deny your 11minute third, you're in a bit of trouble and there aren't many ways to pressure zerg's 3rd/4th/5th without DTs, warp prism, or phoenix.
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Thank you for the guide.
In this thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288105), arcannefrost posts a similar BO also based on rsvp play, where he favors a second stargate instead of a robo (so more Void Rays instead of Immortals) and goes for fast charge tech and +2 attack (this also similar to what I`ve seen Kiwikaki doing). Any thoughts on pros and cons of both builds? Thanks!
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Doesn't Sage have a similar build except he uses mass phoenix? Either way cool build and nice guide. Always feel like Rsvp has a really strong PvZ.
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mutalisks?¨
edit: missed the spoiler that dealt with mutas
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On January 05 2012 08:27 RuneZerg wrote: mutalisks?
Reading skills ?
Great guide kcdc ! As many I'm still skeptical about that 11minute defense and whether or not you can take your third against good zergs, but I will go through the replays and try it out myself
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On January 05 2012 08:00 DontGiveUp wrote: Thank you for the guide.
In this thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288105), arcannefrost posts a similar BO also based on rsvp play, where he favors a second stargate instead of a robo (so more Void Rays instead of Immortals) and goes for fast charge tech and +2 attack (this also similar to what I`ve seen Kiwikaki doing). Any thoughts on pros and cons of both builds? Thanks!
This build was inspired by watching the same rsvp style that arcanefrost posted about. rsvp actually does (did? I haven't caught his stream much lately) get a robo and immortals at about the same time as I do, but he also gets a second stargate and +2 weapsons.
I've decided to cut the 2nd stargate and delay upgrades beyond +1 for my timing attack.
I find the most vulnerable timing is from 12 and 14 minutes after you take your third but before you stabilize your templar/void/immortal composition. I don't see how a second stargate and extra voids helps you at this timing more than the same resources in storms, immortals and zealots would. The way I play it already tends to be pretty thin against a good roach/hydra timing, and adding other stuff cuts more into your army size.
Also, if you can get past that 12-14 minute timing in good shape, you almost always win, so I don't see a reason not to invest as much as you can into surviving that timing.
If rsvp or anyone else with experience with this style want to comment on this, I'd love to hear their thoughts. This is just how I play it and there might be other, better ways to do it.
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On January 05 2012 07:58 TangSC wrote: I think this style is interesting, but perhaps a bit vulnerable. How would you deal with the 3base aggressive roach/ling Stephano-style? I feel like with no sentries, you're pretty vulnerable to these types of counter-attacks. If they deny your 11minute third, you're in a bit of trouble and there aren't many ways to pressure zerg's 3rd/4th/5th without DTs, warp prism, or phoenix.
The mobility of roach/ling can be annoying to deal with, but without anything that shoots up, void rays really shine. You also have +1 zealots, so lings aren't that great as long as P is careful about keeping his choke blocked off.
I think there's a replay in there where I'm forced to cancel my third a couple times and only get it started for good at 13 minutes, but in that replay, my 2-base economy kept pace with his 3-base economy because he went for units instead of drones after my zealot-void timing.
This build invests a lot in tech and economy and opens itself to attack at a point that Z's lair tech is strongest, so it takes a lot of practice to get your execution refined to the point that you can defend. But well-controlled immortal/void/storm can engage much larger roach/hydra forces off-creep, and if you're able to make it past this vulnerable stage, you've essentially won the game.
Also, you don't need to harass. Once this build has 75 probes on 4 bases, there's not much Z can do even if their economy is running full-blast.
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sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed
the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that
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On January 05 2012 08:53 Br3ezy wrote: sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed
the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that
When did lings become good against +1 zealots and storms?
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On January 05 2012 08:57 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:53 Br3ezy wrote: sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed
the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that When did lings become good against +1 zealots and storms? oh I didn't realize how much gas you actually had after getting stargate and voids and a robo bay with immortals. So you can get all these techs relatively faster than zerg can produce units?
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On January 05 2012 08:59 Br3ezy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:57 kcdc wrote:On January 05 2012 08:53 Br3ezy wrote: sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed
the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that When did lings become good against +1 zealots and storms? oh I didn't realize how much gas you actually had after getting stargate and voids and a robo bay with immortals. So you can get all these techs relatively faster than zerg can produce units?
See guide. Storm finishes at 11 min if you do everything right. Which I'm sure doesn't happen in any of the replays, but I might have gotten close.
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Not 100% sure, but I can see mass hydras beating this easily, storm is not that great against hydras and you can't stop creep spread making storm even worse. The hydras will kill all interceptors almost instantly and its over.
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On January 05 2012 09:24 Trumpstyle wrote: Not 100% sure, but I can see mass hydras beating this easily, storm is not that great against hydras and you can't stop creep spread making storm even worse. The hydras will kill all interceptors almost instantly and its over.
I actually think you are incorrect on storm not being that great vs Hydra's. Vs roaches I can agree but storm does very, very well vs Hydra's unless you just storm and don't hit any of them but storm is very effective vs hydra's trust me on that :D.
I can tell by reading this I hate the build because it has a mothership (by hate I mean I don't want to face it I hate motherships so annoying to face as a zerg player ^^).
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We all used to think the mothership is retarded, but there are builds with it now haha. I'm still skeptical that (zerglings+)blings or mutas might work vs this though. :/
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On January 05 2012 09:33 darkness wrote: We all used to think the mothership is retarded, but there are builds with it now haha. I'm still skeptical that (zerglings+)blings or mutas might work vs this though. :/
Good point, I don't think you mention it in the guide kcdc, how do you deal with ling/baneling without sentries ?
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i was hoping such a style could never kick in after facing various bad carrier builds in the past as carrier/templar should pretty much roll everything in a straight up (maxed) fight in pvz. what I'm wondering though... how do you deal with dropstyles like they were common before mutas became common? it sounds like without blink stalkers and already having a hard time at those timings around taking a third it should be one of the strongest builds to prevent this style from kicking in.
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On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over. And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans. What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers. why don't you watch the replays instead of theory-crafting?
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On January 05 2012 07:32 ToastieNL wrote: So, read it through, and I might be rediculous, but; Mass Queen + Neural + Corruptor? Hell, even MASS Neural, as supply permits, though that miught be gimmicky Mass neural? i dont really think thats a viable option anymore. I have seen this build used by a lot of chinese players, it looks really effective. Very hard to pull off though, gl hf!
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Stalker is such a bad unit imo 125/50 is too much. Me like like Will try this BO!
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On January 05 2012 09:03 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:59 Br3ezy wrote:On January 05 2012 08:57 kcdc wrote:On January 05 2012 08:53 Br3ezy wrote: sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed
the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that When did lings become good against +1 zealots and storms? oh I didn't realize how much gas you actually had after getting stargate and voids and a robo bay with immortals. So you can get all these techs relatively faster than zerg can produce units? See guide. Storm finishes at 11 min if you do everything right. Which I'm sure doesn't happen in any of the replays, but I might have gotten close. For the sake of making this guide better and to procrastinate homework, I downloaded the first replay. I was pleased coz it was on antiga shipyard which I had a feeling it would be. + Show Spoiler +Anyways moving onto the game, to be more specific, the zerg starts his third expansion after getting speed, which is delayed compared to a non-gas double expansion (by about 20-30 seconds).
Fast forward to where you have zealots out on the map, and I can see that the zerg is going for some sort of unorthodox economic build, where instead of making a roach warren to defend against zealot pressure, he chooses to make mass lings which sets him back economically. Anyways good job, you have the advantage now as you start your nexus at approximately 11 minutes. At the exact time that your nexus starts, the zerg is floating roughly 1.4k minerals. If somehow, you were matched up with a superior zerg player that could utilize his economy more effeciently, do you see a way to stop 1,000 minerals more worth of units (40 lings)
At this point, the zerg can only hope that he has the superior game knowledge and that he will be able to come back from a disadvantage, which is not the case. You don't make any major mistakes, and you take control of the game and win. I sort of stop watching halfway through because at this point, you have had a more superior economy and you now have been given the opportunity to make those gas expensive units and the zerg's best chance is to go for hive tech, but instead he maxes on lair units instead for unknown reasons. GG Anyways ignoring the first game and moving onto the second game, ZvP on Tal Darim (this will be good, I can just tell). + Show Spoiler + Moving onto the 2nd game, I see that this zerg has also chosen an inferior based strategy in which to play a ZvP on Tal Darim. At the 11:45 mark, where you take your third base, you are up by 10 supply and you are economically ahead by keeping him on 2 bases which is great! I guess a better way to put it is, if you can keep a zerg 2 base on 2 base, you have an advantage and with this advantage, you can choose to go for a stalkerless deathball. At this point, you still stay ahead of this zerg in supply and this zerg is just falling farther behind by the second now because he didn't set himself up for a strong mid game and choose to sacrifice economy to, well not even speed his tech up, but chooses to stay even bases with you. GG
Moving onto the third game, wait scratch that the fourth game (I don't like the map entombed valley so I don't want to wtach that game. I will watch it later if I need to support my post though.) I think Antiga is a great map for ZvP by the way. For future reference, if you see a depot outside of your ramp, the map is most likely MLG Antiga Shipyards which only spawns cross positions. + Show Spoiler + So no early aggression, great game so far. The only blunder I see is that this time, the zerg chooses to take his third expansion at 6:41. I have no authority when I say this, but why does he take his third expansion so late? My immediate thoughts are early game aggression, teching before taking a third, droning up harder then you could ever possibly drone up, pylon blocking third base. Unfortunately, none of these situations happens and all you did was forge FE.
Being in an economically inferior position, this cuts down the zerg's choice of strategy and how well they can control the game. Also on a side note, with no overlord to even scout your base and a roach warren that is done at 8:16, what exactly is the purpose of it? Maybe to fight off 9 minute +1 zealot pushes or something funky like that i guess? only my speculations
At the 10 minute mark, another anaylsis of what situation of the zerg is in is not too bright. The economy count is 50 probes to 53 drones, so you must have done almost unreal damage with those zealots and that void ray or the zerg became scared and made too many units, or just made the wrong units at the wrong time; no matter.
Disregarding that last little thought ^ it appears that this zerg chooses to choose a tech fast option opting for faster tech, at a price to his economy(drone count) for reasons that are not clear to me because his lair finishes at 11:40. Your third is on the way of going up, you have high templar out, and the zerg...just finished his lair.
The importance of a fast lair may not seem logical to the zerg player, but it appears very logical to me. If a protoss has void rays out on the field, wouldn't you want to get some sort of units (lair tech) that can fight the void rays off offensively?
I know this may seem crazy and is certainly going out on a lim here, if the zerg gets a really late lair, he won't really be able to pressure you as long as the void rays aren't microed into spores or excess queens. Also i'd like to point out that while your third base is buildling, the zerg player's macro slips somewhat. Some noticeable mistakes I see is that he is at 117/184 supply (thats at least 5 overlords or 500 minerals he doesn't need right away) and that he has let his macro slip but I assume he had a good reason for that like he was switching techs from lings to hydralisks or something of the likes. I am not going to watch the rest of this game, because already the zerg chose to use an inferior opening and as a result, lets develop such a powerful deathball.
After watching 3/7 of your replays (42.8% to be exact), I'd like to point out some similarities that I saw that these zergs were doing that makes your stalkerless pvz work. - The zerg player chooses an inferior build and as a result, falls behind economically - The zerg player might benefit from spending his money faster. They always get rid of their money, but I don't think they are spending it at critical moments (for example floating past 1k minerals at the 11 minute mark)
So after watching the replays and gathering information about how this kind of PvZ actaully works, some clarifications on actually making this style to work would be
-to delay the zerg's third base for no beneficial gain to the zerg player so that you can take an economic lead with a FFE. -to do enough damage and scare the zerg into making excess units so that he doesn't drone and as a result, falls behind economically
Thank you for reading this and I hope this helps to make your build easier to understand in case the guide did not make sense during some points when individuals were reading it.
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I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have. Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
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Re: banelings
Haven't played against them much, but they die instantly to storms, and they're not that good against zealots. If the zealots are spread-microed, banelings are actually terrible against them. If you see them coming, they should be much weaker than the same money in roaches would be.
Re: drops
Drops are pretty good against this. Usually, Z will go for a roach/hydra frontal bust, and if that fails, they'll transition to drops. In my experience, you can afford to take some damage in this window because the end-game comp is just so strong, but drops are definitely pretty good because zealot warp-ins and void rays aren't always enough to deal with drops cleanly.
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On January 05 2012 09:54 kcdc wrote: Re: banelings
Haven't played against them much, but they die instantly to storms, and they're not that good against zealots. If the zealots are spread-microed, banelings are actually terrible against them. If you see them coming, they should be much weaker than the same money in roaches would be.
Re: drops
Drops are pretty good against this. Usually, Z will go for a roach/hydra frontal bust, and if that fails, they'll transition to drops. In my experience, you can afford to take some damage in this window because the end-game comp is just so strong, but drops are definitely pretty good because zealot warp-ins and void rays aren't always enough to deal with drops cleanly.
I haven't played much against this style, so I'm willing to take anything you say for granted, but are storms really that good against the "baneling rain" strats ? ( overlord drops of baneling on your main army )
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On January 05 2012 09:48 Markwerf wrote: I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have. Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
You can do a 5 zealot + void ray push with +1 off of 1 gate, but I think the way that is laid out in this guide is better. This way gets you 3 gates and the ability to reinforce at the point of your attack so that if there's an opening, you can win the game right there. It's sort of like a PvT FE where you delay units to set up your production and then have a production burst right after WG tech finishes. This gives you extra production capacity and flexibility.
You're right that you can transition from this push into colossus, and that's a strong strategy as well. It's definitely easier to secure your third against roach-hydra, but it's not as good against a 3-base muta transition, and it puts you in a weaker position for the hive-tech phase of the game. I use both strategies, but they have different advantages.
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Geiko, I think VRay and Carriers are, combined with Archons.
I still think the best you can do vs this: - Spread yourself the fuck out. Multipronged attacks. the less bally the army is, the better. - Hydradefense on creep with fungal support, a lot of micro and a remax (you should afford that) - Mass Queen (+Corruptor Maybe) because of Transfuse Or, my favorite - ±20 Corruptors in Magic Boxed mode OVER the Protoss army. Reason: A) Vortex vortexes the Protoss too, allowing the Zerg army to get a good position with Hydra and Queen (as in, IN the vortex, so they are spread out under the air units; immune to most of splash, targeting, feedback and all in range) B) Protoss loses the power of Storm C) Corruptors are pretty good when microed to use their ability on Carries/Mommaship and focus fire.
I think those are the best options. Mass Ling/Hydra drops may be very good too.
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On January 05 2012 09:58 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:54 kcdc wrote: Re: banelings
Haven't played against them much, but they die instantly to storms, and they're not that good against zealots. If the zealots are spread-microed, banelings are actually terrible against them. If you see them coming, they should be much weaker than the same money in roaches would be.
Re: drops
Drops are pretty good against this. Usually, Z will go for a roach/hydra frontal bust, and if that fails, they'll transition to drops. In my experience, you can afford to take some damage in this window because the end-game comp is just so strong, but drops are definitely pretty good because zealot warp-ins and void rays aren't always enough to deal with drops cleanly. I haven't played much against this style, so I'm willing to take anything you say for granted, but are storms really that good against the "baneling rain" strats ? ( overlord drops of baneling on your main army )
No, storms aren't very good against overlords. I was responding to a question about playing vs banelings without sentries, so I was thinking of banelings on the ground.
I haven't played this against baneling bombing yet, but baneling bombs are mostly strong against sentries, and this build doesn't get sentries. Maybe there's a timing where it'd be good, but I haven't had a Z try it yet.
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i dont like the build in general. Overall you are building up a death ball with the most expensive units in the game and hoping for a roll over late game. The problem is if some where/when in your game plan go wrong, there is no room for a come back simply bc you cant replace your army as quick as stalkers based army.
think about it like this. you are slowly stacking all of your gas from the very beginning of the game by making them air so its really hard to lose them. Then you tech to immortal which is also hard to kill and finally go into storm which is a guarantee dmg even if you lose the HT. Yes late game it will be so strong and almost unstoppable. But imagine something like a 3 hatches speed roach all-in ignoring the DPS of VR and keep trading roaches for nexus (aka mondragon guide to ZvP) would simply crush this game plan from the root.
another problem i have that you forgot to mention is mineral dump. As protoss, there are only 2 reasonable mineral dumb: expand-cannon or zealot. "couple of cannons at strategic location" is a very misleading term bc it underestimate how IMPORTANT it is. What is 'over cannoning'? What is 'good location'? Not even counting the fact that if you are aiming for a late game army, you should have a different alternative version of each map. For example if i was playing on Shatter temple, in a split map situation, it would be 6 bases i could take in total while on taldarim its 8 and on xelnaga its 4.5(gold has less resources). This result different gas income and require different cannon placements for different base structure.
The 2nd flaw i saw i this build is the mobility of your army. Hydra drop, nydus... late game cracklings on taldarim, how could you possibly expand? Storm? The more you spread out, the smaller and the less concentrate your army is, the less effective it get. This simply show how important your cannon placement must be to fence off all the attack angle that zerg could possibly pull off.
3rd point: you simply didnt know the counter to the build yourself or you choose to hide it. Which ever the reason is, there is no 'perfect' build order in any point inside an RTS game. There are always window timings open left and right, accordingly to the level of the players. On top of my head right now some sort of defensive infestor play into mid game muta switch could overwhelm the build but thats not the point. I hope you could provide some replays that you play evenly with a zerg and i want to see how do you transition late game.
The longest replay among the one you post is vs Clashdrone. I do talk to the guy in a daily basis and did watch the replay. Now let take a look at the 11->12 min mark. He forced you to cancel you nexus twice. I was watching the game in your vision and thought that you were barely winning until the 14 mins mark to get the nexus up (after the 1st hydra wave) but then i pause the game and turn on everyone vision. Zerg has 2k mineral with all of his queens 90+ energy. imagine all those bunch put into units, you prob should not even stay alive. Infact, if he did a commit roach lings all in around 11 min mark after force cancel on your 3rd. it would totally been his game since he could ramke and rally them so fast compare to your. The general result would be you losing your nature and last with 4 VR which you cant counter attack with. You might storm the lings roach attack at max twice and thats it.
Now into the good point of the guide. I like the idea of getting early storm and has been toying with it a lot in the past. The problem is that each storm spent needed to be really cost/effective and to do that you need to be in a perfect place in a perfect time in every battle. Its like seigtank in a way but you only get 1 shot. I have been testing it with prism but my apm isnt that good to make it effective yet. Using this style i think instead of using cannon, you should make more than 1 prism to turn the option of instant counter attack on. This means that every time the roach hydra army move out, Zerg will have to face a chance of having +1 zealot in their main killing drones and tech while P could defend simply using storm and VR. I have tried this style since plexa shock and awe post but it really hard to tweak with vs the recent rise of muta lings.
oh yeah muta lings. Even though you said this build provide the road to phoenix, there is no freaking way you could counter the initial muta without preemptively building phoenix (which you are not simply bc of gas into muta and VR). Not even counting a roach switch from the initial muta will screw thing up bc it take much longer for a non-gateway-based army to react compare to zerg.
Overall: good build. not enough information in the guide to apply in high level. Extremely hard and fragile to execute without a perfect mechanic (see sair-reaver for more information). Risky.
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So, if I get it straight, you skip sentry/stalker to get voidray/immortals/storms faster on 2bases ? I can understand how it will work on map like shakuras with a small ramp, but on metalopolis or xelnaga, can you survive to a roach/lings all in ? Or even a roach/ling push at 9/10 min ? Because even if voidray are strong in large numbers, if you tech to immortals/storm you probably won't have more than 2voidrays right ?
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How do you deal with muta harrass? Brood lord curropter infestor?
User was warned for this post
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On January 05 2012 10:07 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:48 Markwerf wrote: I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have. Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
You can do a 5 zealot + void ray push with +1 off of 1 gate, but I think the way that is laid out in this guide is better. This way gets you 3 gates and the ability to reinforce at the point of your attack so that if there's an opening, you can win the game right there. It's sort of like a PvT FE where you delay units to set up your production and then have a production burst right after WG tech finishes. This gives you extra production capacity and flexibility. You're right that you can transition from this push into colossus, and that's a strong strategy as well. It's definitely easier to secure your third against roach-hydra, but it's not as good against a 3-base muta transition, and it puts you in a weaker position for the hive-tech phase of the game. I use both strategies, but they have different advantages.
Hmm I don't think the way it's laid out in the guide is just better. I've checked most of your reps and compared with a couple of myself and I notice that I push with 4 zealots and a void at their third around 8:00 average while you tend to push around 8:45-9:00 albeit with maybe 1 or 2 zealots more. I think that timing difference is quite crucial because in that time between 8 and 9 mins it's often when they expect pressure and tend to get roaches up, get a queen at their third, make units etc. A minute earlier push with a few less zealots has more chance of doing damage imo then hitting a bit later. It is true that your version has the potency to keep on attacking with warpins but if you kill the third it's usually not an option to go for the natural anyways so that point is pretty moot, it's all about aggression towards the third and what it costs you to do so. Not relying on zealots through warpgate but making them the normal way has a few advantages: - you don't rely on a unscouted probe out the map or need to wait for a proxy pylon to finish, you simply walk (and fly) your units over. This is more reliable, faster and means you can just make a full wall for your FFE. I see your style is to leave a zealot hole gap but I find this much less economical and riskier then simply making a full wall and busting down a pylon later. - i don't need warpgate asap, makes it easier to get stargate faster which I tend to get up a fair bit faster. (i go +1 attack, stargate, warpgate) - I don't neccesarily need 3 gates that fast making it easier to probe harder in the meantime and transition effectively. - A proxy pylon has more risk of getting your zealots caught by roaches. I simply move them over and if I see roaches I retreat as roaches won't have speed at that time, while letting the voidray kill roaches or proceed with harass. With proxy pylon I've had a new batch of zealots being caught by roaches right away and killed.
Either way both methods have their merits I guess. If you're initial probe got a good hiding spot and can make a proxy pylon unscathed it's a waste not to go for it but if it got killed (often happens to me when i need to confirm if he finished the natural), I find it simply easier to stream zealots then to hope i can sneak out another probe and make a proxy. Ofcourse it also depends on the way you make your wall when FFEing, with your style of leaving 1 gap it's easier to move out with a probe while I wall completely when easily possible (like on tal darim and shakuras for example).
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Think I saw Sheth hold this on his stream pretty easy by expanding all over the map...build timings might have been different.
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NB:
There's a lot to break down here.
Cannons: I like to make just 1 or 2 cannons. I don't think it's good to build more because you wind up with too small an army.
Mobility: You're not as mobile as blink stalker, but you have flying units and chargelots, and you can plant HT in positions where you're worried about defense. And if you get to late game, you can spam cannons everywhere with excess minerals. It's not as bad a situation as you're making it out to be.
Base count: You really only need 4 to complete your deathball. After your 4th base, you just dump gas into your deathball and spam cannons and nexuses everywhere with whatever APM you can spare. I don't see why talking about how many bases a map supports should be a focus of this guide. The positions of the 3rd and 4th are the big factors to the viability of the build.
The ClashDrone game: That game was close. He made mistakes, but so did I. I had my third denied multiple times because I threw a void ray away for free, supply blocked myself, and didn't position my units well. Imagine if I'd had 3 void rays in the middle of the map at 11 minutes. My third would have been perfectly safe and I would have had a huge lead. I'm not very good, so I don't have any replays where both parties play perfectly or even particularly well.
Build weaknesses: I'm not trying to hide weaknesses of the build. I think this is a fairly stable strategy that's designed to be good against everything, but that it's biggest weakness is it's vulnerability as you take your third. It can get dicey there if Z sets up a strong timing. This is where most of my losses have been with the build, and you need really strong macro and control in order to defend.
Muta ling: I discussed this in the guide. You need a phoenix to scout his lair play. If he goes roach straight to spire, you can transition to blink stalker + storm on 3 base, or you can try phoenix + storm with lots of cannons on 3 base. You should be able to see it coming, and you have the infrastructure to react.
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On January 05 2012 10:56 Glon wrote: How do you deal with muta harrass? Brood lord curropter infestor? Read the spoilers in the OP.
Also to add to NB's points by the time you have your 200/200 army, fully upgraded and such, the zerg would (hopefully) have already scouted your army and bases. Say on Shakura's, a fairly macro heavy map, the zerg can send banelings along with lings to your bottom bases if you have expo'd there, or if you have expo'd to your close 3rd they can just pick you apart with nydus's (or nydi?).
I'm sure this build would work in a Bo7 where you are trying to fool your opponent with total change in builds but otherwise i doubt it.
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To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge.
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On January 05 2012 11:02 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 10:07 kcdc wrote:On January 05 2012 09:48 Markwerf wrote: I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have. Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
You can do a 5 zealot + void ray push with +1 off of 1 gate, but I think the way that is laid out in this guide is better. This way gets you 3 gates and the ability to reinforce at the point of your attack so that if there's an opening, you can win the game right there. It's sort of like a PvT FE where you delay units to set up your production and then have a production burst right after WG tech finishes. This gives you extra production capacity and flexibility. You're right that you can transition from this push into colossus, and that's a strong strategy as well. It's definitely easier to secure your third against roach-hydra, but it's not as good against a 3-base muta transition, and it puts you in a weaker position for the hive-tech phase of the game. I use both strategies, but they have different advantages. Hmm I don't think the way it's laid out in the guide is just better. I've checked most of your reps and compared with a couple of myself and I notice that I push with 4 zealots and a void at their third around 8:00 average while you tend to push around 8:45-9:00 albeit with maybe 1 or 2 zealots more. I think that timing difference is quite crucial because in that time between 8 and 9 mins it's often when they expect pressure and tend to get roaches up, get a queen at their third, make units etc. A minute earlier push with a few less zealots has more chance of doing damage imo then hitting a bit later. It is true that your version has the potency to keep on attacking with warpins but if you kill the third it's usually not an option to go for the natural anyways so that point is pretty moot, it's all about aggression towards the third and what it costs you to do so. Not relying on zealots through warpgate but making them the normal way has a few advantages: - you don't rely on a unscouted probe out the map or need to wait for a proxy pylon to finish, you simply walk (and fly) your units over. This is more reliable, faster and means you can just make a full wall for your FFE. I see your style is to leave a zealot hole gap but I find this much less economical and riskier then simply making a full wall and busting down a pylon later. - i don't need warpgate asap, makes it easier to get stargate faster which I tend to get up a fair bit faster. (i go +1 attack, stargate, warpgate) - I don't neccesarily need 3 gates that fast making it easier to probe harder in the meantime and transition effectively. - A proxy pylon has more risk of getting your zealots caught by roaches. I simply move them over and if I see roaches I retreat as roaches won't have speed at that time, while letting the voidray kill roaches or proceed with harass. With proxy pylon I've had a new batch of zealots being caught by roaches right away and killed. Either way both methods have their merits I guess. If you're initial probe got a good hiding spot and can make a proxy pylon unscathed it's a waste not to go for it but if it got killed (often happens to me when i need to confirm if he finished the natural), I find it simply easier to stream zealots then to hope i can sneak out another probe and make a proxy. Ofcourse it also depends on the way you make your wall when FFEing, with your style of leaving 1 gap it's easier to move out with a probe while I wall completely when easily possible (like on tal darim and shakuras for example).
You're definitely right that it can be hard to secure a good proxy pylon. If you get one, you hit at 8 min. Otherwise, it's later. In most of the replays, I was really trying to focus on my transition execution, so I wasn't pushing for the timing attack as hard as I could. I've won a lot of games with that attack at 8 minutes, but it's much less scary at 8:30 or 9:00. I have also tried the walking-the-zealots over style, but I didn't like that Z could see exactly how much was coming to attack him and without the 3 gates of warp-in reinforcements, the attack didn't feel nearly as strong.
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I think if I played against this build again, I could beat it. I held the VR and zealots no problem but should have instantly countered instead of sitting and droning. I didn't have enough units to stop you from taking your third and engaged in a poor position. The build has potential, but it relies more on your opponent not knowing what the hell is going on.
- ClashDrone
On January 05 2012 11:17 DarKFoRcE wrote: To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge. He relies on storming you and trapping you in chokes.
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I'm going to have to do this for every PvZ now. Sounds like fun, and I feel like stalkers are the least efficient unit that protoss has  Thanks a lot! The replays really help.
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ive been trying this sort of playstyle for about 1-2 months, and its literally the deathball ive been aiming for awhile now. My thought process was "stalkers are one of the worst dps units in the game for their cost" so id rather get immortals vs roaches, storm vs hydra, etc etc. Will try again, seeing as this build has better transitioning than the one i was using before (double stargate into zealot immortal mothership to take a 3rd at around 12-13 minutes).
And believe me guys, the only reason my build didnt work before was because i couldnt hold hydra roach timings. If you successfully hold it and can secure 3 bases, then the composition is nearly unbeatable.
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On January 05 2012 11:23 chadissilent wrote:I think if I played against this build again, I could beat it. I held the VR and zealots no problem but should have instantly countered instead of sitting and droning. I didn't have enough units to stop you from taking your third and engaged in a poor position. The build has potential, but it relies more on your opponent not knowing what the hell is going on. - ClashDrone Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:17 DarKFoRcE wrote: To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge. He relies on storming you and trapping you in chokes. kinda summarize my point.
Its not hard to take a 3rd, it is hard to KEEP it however. Recall TSL3 when cruncher just go air heavy style, Mondragon just hold down the R key and rally and BOOM, magicly protoss lost. Same apply here.
The build is turtle heavy which make 11 mins a very early point to take a 3rd. I could imagine you need several(5+) storm or at least a mothership to secure your 3rd and double expand to your 4th. On small map such as xnc this is a good thing bc zerg cant really out expand bc they will have to stay around 4-5 bases period. But on bigger maps such as taldarim, Pressure 3rd and triple expand is still possible vs such a late game army from toss.
I rather rush to carriers on 2 bases than doing such complicated build while taking a huge risk.
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On January 05 2012 11:23 chadissilent wrote:I think if I played against this build again, I could beat it. I held the VR and zealots no problem but should have instantly countered instead of sitting and droning. I didn't have enough units to stop you from taking your third and engaged in a poor position. The build has potential, but it relies more on your opponent not knowing what the hell is going on. - ClashDrone Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:17 DarKFoRcE wrote: To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge. He relies on storming you and trapping you in chokes.
Add me. I've played this build a lot, but frankly, it's a very difficult build to execute, and I'd like to practice it more. tqkcdc.274
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Noooo! this is so scary =(
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I am quite scared of the time when I take my third base. A good Zerg will make it hard for you to take your third and it is really hard to defend a good timing push with this "in between beginning and super high-tech"-phase. This is a good build if you are facing a generally passive Zerg player but that rarely happens imo.
I have to admit though that I haven't tried this yet. I will give it a shot in custom games. I love to mix it up against Zerg because alot of them seem to expect quite a narrow range of strategies from P. I recently started doing the warp prism into 9:30 attack build and it's just amazing how the pure fact that it hasn't been played to death yet makes it a very scary thing to face for your opponent.
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On January 05 2012 11:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:02 Markwerf wrote:On January 05 2012 10:07 kcdc wrote:On January 05 2012 09:48 Markwerf wrote: I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have. Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
You can do a 5 zealot + void ray push with +1 off of 1 gate, but I think the way that is laid out in this guide is better. This way gets you 3 gates and the ability to reinforce at the point of your attack so that if there's an opening, you can win the game right there. It's sort of like a PvT FE where you delay units to set up your production and then have a production burst right after WG tech finishes. This gives you extra production capacity and flexibility. You're right that you can transition from this push into colossus, and that's a strong strategy as well. It's definitely easier to secure your third against roach-hydra, but it's not as good against a 3-base muta transition, and it puts you in a weaker position for the hive-tech phase of the game. I use both strategies, but they have different advantages. Hmm I don't think the way it's laid out in the guide is just better. I've checked most of your reps and compared with a couple of myself and I notice that I push with 4 zealots and a void at their third around 8:00 average while you tend to push around 8:45-9:00 albeit with maybe 1 or 2 zealots more. I think that timing difference is quite crucial because in that time between 8 and 9 mins it's often when they expect pressure and tend to get roaches up, get a queen at their third, make units etc. A minute earlier push with a few less zealots has more chance of doing damage imo then hitting a bit later. It is true that your version has the potency to keep on attacking with warpins but if you kill the third it's usually not an option to go for the natural anyways so that point is pretty moot, it's all about aggression towards the third and what it costs you to do so. Not relying on zealots through warpgate but making them the normal way has a few advantages: - you don't rely on a unscouted probe out the map or need to wait for a proxy pylon to finish, you simply walk (and fly) your units over. This is more reliable, faster and means you can just make a full wall for your FFE. I see your style is to leave a zealot hole gap but I find this much less economical and riskier then simply making a full wall and busting down a pylon later. - i don't need warpgate asap, makes it easier to get stargate faster which I tend to get up a fair bit faster. (i go +1 attack, stargate, warpgate) - I don't neccesarily need 3 gates that fast making it easier to probe harder in the meantime and transition effectively. - A proxy pylon has more risk of getting your zealots caught by roaches. I simply move them over and if I see roaches I retreat as roaches won't have speed at that time, while letting the voidray kill roaches or proceed with harass. With proxy pylon I've had a new batch of zealots being caught by roaches right away and killed. Either way both methods have their merits I guess. If you're initial probe got a good hiding spot and can make a proxy pylon unscathed it's a waste not to go for it but if it got killed (often happens to me when i need to confirm if he finished the natural), I find it simply easier to stream zealots then to hope i can sneak out another probe and make a proxy. Ofcourse it also depends on the way you make your wall when FFEing, with your style of leaving 1 gap it's easier to move out with a probe while I wall completely when easily possible (like on tal darim and shakuras for example). You're definitely right that it can be hard to secure a good proxy pylon. If you get one, you hit at 8 min. Otherwise, it's later. In most of the replays, I was really trying to focus on my transition execution, so I wasn't pushing for the timing attack as hard as I could. I've won a lot of games with that attack at 8 minutes, but it's much less scary at 8:30 or 9:00. I have also tried the walking-the-zealots over style, but I didn't like that Z could see exactly how much was coming to attack him and without the 3 gates of warp-in reinforcements, the attack didn't feel nearly as strong.
Well, with warpgate it's virtually impossible to hit at 8min reliably with also a voidray present and +1 finished I think. One of the replays you got 8:10 but +1 and the void were heavily delayed. It makes sense that if you need to invest in 2 more gates and need to rely on proxy pylons it's just harder to pull off. The game against tunico somewhat reveals the problem I have with the proxy pylon strat, you get up a pylon in hidden corner and warp in zealots and then you get surprised by roaches, you lose the zealots and the proxy while doing no damage. Walking them over is so much less risk as the window to get caught is much smaller and you don't come from an angle that let's you get caught easily. Especially getting up 2 more gates before starting the void is just not possible I think, either you go just 2 gates and your push is not as strong for the timing it comes at or the void is delayed quite a bit.
Here's a replay where I open with streamed zealots in case you're wondering about the timings: http://drop.sc/84929
Also I think the game against Tunico is a nice example I think why going colossi first is probably a more reliable and sound tactic. Colossi add that ranged firepower that you need to stop roachkiting, without colossi you can not push the zerg at all (simply can't do with HT before carrier kinda) and colossi are also great to help against multipronged roach attacks. As it is multipronged roach attacks are probably unstoppable with this tactic, for example suppose they do a midgame roach drop or even a nydus. You basically can't stop it before you lose most of your stuff, all units are slow and except the few voids all your units have to navigate around your walls. Because you're so slow you can't counterattack either, especially as without proper ranged attacks you'll get mutilated on creep against good roach control.
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Wuuh a totally new way of approaching PvZ i will differently play around with this build the next cobble of days with hopes of getting the high master / grandmaster zergs to whine on eu server!! :D
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sounds like a sick build if managing zerg aggression well during the first phase of the game
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Would it be possible to delay taking your third long enough to get some HT's out to defend it? Silver league here, so let me know if that's a bit too unreasonable.
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How often do you confirm a speedling expand doesn't continue to mine gas? I've never tried it as I'd rather play safe.
Also why do you only get 3 gates to pressure with? With 4 gates I can have 7 zealots and guarantee a roach/spore/queen response, whereas with your build it looks possible for the zerg to defend without roaches. I just checked your first replay, and you have 7 zealots and a void ray pressuring at 9 minutes, whereas I have the same units and upgrades around 40 seconds earlier, and with more reinforcing power.
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The early game you are leaving yourself very open to aggression from roach and mutas. You will need pheonix to counter early mutas and voids or immortals to counter roaches, pref immortals. Your counter to hydras relies on storm. that's 3 tech paths. Yes its a good late game plan, but getting to that late game has srs issues
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I dunno this doesn't seem like something very easy to pull off for an average masters player. The defense vs a 3 base roach ling is going to be very micro intensive and my apm is just not enough to manage it. Cool build though.
Its funny how we keep seeing builds that for PvZ that incorporate a mothership so close to HotS launch. Hopefully blizz changes their mind?(i dunno archon toilet is still pretty lame for zerg)
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Can you elaborate on the differences between this and rsvp's build? I think he includes collosi too, why did you pull these out, and what advantages do you feel your build has over his?
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On January 05 2012 15:38 iamke55 wrote: How often do you confirm a speedling expand doesn't continue to mine gas? I've never tried it as I'd rather play safe.
Also why do you only get 3 gates to pressure with? With 4 gates I can have 7 zealots and guarantee a roach/spore/queen response, whereas with your build it looks possible for the zerg to defend without roaches. I just checked your first replay, and you have 7 zealots and a void ray pressuring at 9 minutes, whereas I have the same units and upgrades around 40 seconds earlier, and with more reinforcing power. you dont really need to click on the gas to actually tell. You could also scout the 3rd timing or alternatively sneak in their base (main) when the 1st queen moving down to nature and go around the creep reaching the gas. There are a ton of sign to scout an all-in zerg early on. Not even counting the fast that he is saving most of his chrono therefore his tech is pretty much fastest possible for a forge FE.
Again, he didnt spend chrono on probes therefore his econ is really gas heavy as oppose to most FFE follow up mineral heavy early on. Im surprised that he could even afford 3 gates zealot VR in that low econ. Noticed how he wanted to get the VR out very early on so he get Stargate b4 warp (correct me if im wrong).
The build is extremely fragile and doesnt have room to 'take' any damage. As you could see by his reply to my post, losing the first VR = cancel the 3rd TWICE.
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I can see this working on calm before the storm, but any other map it just seems you lose to mass roach. Zerg will max in 13 minutes or so and by that time, you'll still be on 4 gas. You are making void rays, immortals and high Templar off 2 base essentially, and you need a ton of immortals to defeat roaches without sentries and stalkers. Storm sucks vs burrow roaches, and is really easily dodged without forcefield support. Voidrays are also pretty bad vs roaches. Your 3rd base will be trashed before the vooid rays do anything.
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I am a zerg player, I am glad for "builds" like this. They aren't stupid little timing pushes, or all-ins or lucky build order wins. This has clean response, clean transitions and requires you to do certain things. We just need a build like this for terrans and SCII will start to look a lot like BW.
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Sorry if this was discussed before, I ran through every post and didn't see a mention of this.
When do you recommend getting your 3rd/4th gas and do you immediately rally a second voidray to the first?
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one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi
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On January 05 2012 19:54 Garmer wrote: one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi
A lot of players have been toying with VR and +1 zealots pressure out of FFE and it`s always fun to watch. The game goes full pendulum swing: Protoss start with a very strong pressure that is not designed to kill the Zerg, while Zerg has a very strong counter attack timing window. It`s so intense, haha. Micro and macro matter a lot so early on the game.
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Interesting. You don't add any sentries at all ? Even a max of 2 or 3 for GS/FF to prevent roaches from retreating ?
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I feel you kinda need Sentries in such an army mix to make sure Z doesn't just roll you over each wave they come in, because that's what Roach/Hydra/Ling most of the time does.
Having sentries in it obviously makes it harder to keep producing immortals and bother HT + Storm tech, but I guess having 3-4 is essential in big engagements to split up Z army.
I'm not sure, I will give it a try today, but I feel it requires too much scouting information than is usually possible, and the Z needs to be kinda passive in the game, and not getting ready for some crazy timing... I'll start with the replays ^^
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Really nice, finally someone is noticing that carriers are surprisingly strong vs zerg if used correctly. Also Collosus+stalker+carrier is worth considering, i faced it once and was riddiculously hard to beat. carriers own infestors like no tommorrow and without infestors beating collo stalker is pretty hard, also carriers provide nice support vs Broodlords.
But yeah, this build looks even stronger, protoss is finally using some more stuff than blind collo . I'm actually very scared of this, the only way to beat it is to prevent 3rd base i think. Maybe roach hydra stream all the time might stop it as well because once u run out of storms, hydras are very scary here
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everything seems good except i disagree with one thing... I think it is a really bad idea to "ignore" some units in a RTS game. I'm not talking about stalkers because if he goes mutas, you will maybe make stalkers to counter them, it's not the point. I was thinking about sentries : you can ff or use the guardian shield, both are very useful and good (even if you have a big dps army like that, guardian shield still useful)
- ok i just saw that some posts above mine talk about that - 1 more idea : maybe do shields upgrades could be nice too
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Just reading though the build it seems like there is a large window for Mutas to just out right crush you, especially with Mutas becoming more and more popular in ZvP. Also Mass Hydra at any point before Mothership seems viable, but I suppose that it would be easy to trasition into Collosus If you see that.
Sounds like a fun build but also a bit gimmiky and relises on the Zerg not attacking you
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As a masters zerg I see a big timing for mutas to outright win the game before you get storm, archons can be magic boxed rather easily and a zerg can unpower gateways with mutas and win game flat out relatively easily
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On January 05 2012 19:54 Garmer wrote: one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi
Actually not many high lvl protoss use colussi against zerg these days. Opening up with storms is waaaay better (very much now when mutas is so popular). Colussi usally comes very late game if at all. This is offtopic tho..
Thanks for the guide, checking out the replays now.
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For those suggesting sentries, first of all guardian shield is not really good against zerg. Hydra's do 12 damage and roaches 16 so guardian shield really doesn't decrease damage that much. I'm not saying it's bad it's just not a must reason to get at least 1 sentry. As for forcefield, forcefield is only useful if you have enough to actually make a wall which usually requires 2 to 3 sentries at least, especially if you make them. The gas cost for that is quite detrimental if you want to tech to some other tech quickly. Forcefield also get's bad if a large portion of your army is in zealots, the usual trick with ff against roaches is to wall of part of the zerg army so only a small portion of the roaches are doing damage. If you have many zealots then even the roaches behind the wall will tend to do damage and the whole effect of the ff is not as big anymore. Finally the gas is simply spent better here, if you are rushing to templar there really is no point in sentries as templar are just the better use of gas.
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On January 05 2012 21:45 Markwerf wrote: For those suggesting sentries, first of all guardian shield is not really good against zerg. Hydra's do 12 damage and roaches 16 so guardian shield really doesn't decrease damage that much. I'm not saying it's bad it's just not a must reason to get at least 1 sentry. As for forcefield, forcefield is only useful if you have enough to actually make a wall which usually requires 2 to 3 sentries at least, especially if you make them. The gas cost for that is quite detrimental if you want to tech to some other tech quickly. Forcefield also get's bad if a large portion of your army is in zealots, the usual trick with ff against roaches is to wall of part of the zerg army so only a small portion of the roaches are doing damage. If you have many zealots then even the roaches behind the wall will tend to do damage and the whole effect of the ff is not as big anymore. Finally the gas is simply spent better here, if you are rushing to templar there really is no point in sentries as templar are just the better use of gas.
Yeah its pretty clear that it would be hard to invest in sentries in this build seeing how gas heavy it is. Also they cannot defend muta harass very well (hehe) and so its way better to spend those on getting up storm/archon
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On January 05 2012 21:42 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 19:54 Garmer wrote: one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi Actually not many high lvl protoss use colussi against zerg these days. Opening up with storms is waaaay better (very much now when mutas is so popular). Colussi usally comes very late game if at all. This is offtopic tho.. Thanks for the guide, checking out the replays now.
Errr what? I see colossi way more often than i see storms in games i watch or play.
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On January 05 2012 21:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:42 aderum wrote:On January 05 2012 19:54 Garmer wrote: one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi Actually not many high lvl protoss use colussi against zerg these days. Opening up with storms is waaaay better (very much now when mutas is so popular). Colussi usally comes very late game if at all. This is offtopic tho.. Thanks for the guide, checking out the replays now. Errr what? I see colossi way more often than i see storms in games i watch or play.
okay maybe i have been unlycky when im watching.. i almost only see storms. Ignore what i said then.. =)
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
kcdc: I believe you have a typo in Phase 3 -
"If you haven't been able to defend your third cleanly and Z is able to reach hive tech before you secure your fourth, you still need a fleet beacon and you can start your transition to your carrier deatbhall before you take your third, but you're definitely behind at this point."
You mean fourth here as far as I can tell.
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I've been saying this for a long time... storms + archon + carriers + mothership is the late-game composition you want. Yes, it's gas intensive, but so is BL+infestor+corrupter. I like this way of getting there though, I might try using this in a few PvZs and see how I like it. I think the only problem is that if you get surprised by mutas while doing this you actually just straight up die, but very few Zergs are going to proxy spire so I think if you're diligent in scouting it shouldn't be an issue.
Honestly I think 99% of the reason people don't transition into that composition is because it used to be a lot weaker against the old NP. NP is actually REALLY bad against carriers now, and you can easily deal with hydras, infestors, and corrupters.
On January 05 2012 21:26 GuoJing wrote: everything seems good except i disagree with one thing... I think it is a really bad idea to "ignore" some units in a RTS game. I'm not talking about stalkers because if he goes mutas, you will maybe make stalkers to counter them, it's not the point. I was thinking about sentries : you can ff or use the guardian shield, both are very useful and good (even if you have a big dps army like that, guardian shield still useful)
- ok i just saw that some posts above mine talk about that - 1 more idea : maybe do shields upgrades could be nice too
Sentries are actually REALLY good with this composition, the only problem is that you just don't have enough gas. Archons, HTs, carriers, etc. all cost A LOT of gas which makes sentries basically out of the question; 1-2 sentries are okay for blocking ramps and stuff, but any more than that and it eats into your gas count too much imo.
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awesome guide is awesome , thumbs up bro!
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On January 05 2012 15:38 iamke55 wrote: How often do you confirm a speedling expand doesn't continue to mine gas? I've never tried it as I'd rather play safe.
Also why do you only get 3 gates to pressure with? With 4 gates I can have 7 zealots and guarantee a roach/spore/queen response, whereas with your build it looks possible for the zerg to defend without roaches. I just checked your first replay, and you have 7 zealots and a void ray pressuring at 9 minutes, whereas I have the same units and upgrades around 40 seconds earlier, and with more reinforcing power.
I manage to see the gas pretty often. The trick is hiding a probe and timing it to run in just after the 4 lings clear your pylon block and leave the natural to take towers and watch your front. This gets the probe in there before speed finishes. If you don't scout a tip that Z is playing standard double expand, you can't do this build as it flat out dies to 2-base hydra, and there are better builds against 2-base muta or 2-base infestor.
Regarding the timing, if I do the build right and get a good proxy pylon, the attack is 5 zealots with +1 weapons and 1 void ray at Z's third at ~8 min. I was practicing the build against clashdrone last night and I think the fastest I actually hit was 8:04.
On January 05 2012 16:25 groms wrote: I dunno this doesn't seem like something very easy to pull off for an average masters player. The defense vs a 3 base roach ling is going to be very micro intensive and my apm is just not enough to manage it. Cool build though.
On January 05 2012 16:39 goswser wrote: Can you elaborate on the differences between this and rsvp's build? I think he includes collosi too, why did you pull these out, and what advantages do you feel your build has over his?
This is basically rsvp's build with a couple small tweaks that I think make it easier to defend roach/hydra busts after you take your third. rsvp chooses between a colossus and a storm transition after the zealot/void timing. I also use both transitions, and they're both good. Colossus tech is a little better for defending your third early on, I think, but I prefer storm because colossus/void is a little too counter-able by corruptor IMO. The end-game composition is stronger and more efficient after storm tech, but the colossus tech route (which involves blink stalkers) is more able to do a mid-game timing attack.
As for the differences between the build I posted and rsvp's build: he gets (or used to get, haven't seen him play it lately) a second stargate, faster charge, and faster +2 weapons. I cut the 2nd stargate and delay charge and +2 weapons to have a little more stuff during the vulnerable phase where it's hard to stay alive against roach/hydra. But the concept of the build is all rsvp.
On January 05 2012 16:53 NB wrote: Again, he didnt spend chrono on probes therefore his econ is really gas heavy as oppose to most FFE follow up mineral heavy early on. Im surprised that he could even afford 3 gates zealot VR in that low econ. Noticed how he wanted to get the VR out very early on so he get Stargate b4 warp (correct me if im wrong).
The build is extremely fragile and doesnt have room to 'take' any damage. As you could see by his reply to my post, losing the first VR = cancel the 3rd TWICE.
WG before stargate. And yes, the build is fragile. You can't afford to throw your voids away for sure.
On January 05 2012 20:09 Nyast wrote: Interesting. You don't add any sentries at all ? Even a max of 2 or 3 for GS/FF to prevent roaches from retreating ?
There's no gas for sentries. I'd much rather have an extra storm than a guardian shield.
On January 05 2012 22:23 marvellosity wrote: kcdc: I believe you have a typo in Phase 3 -
Yep. I'll fix it.
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On January 05 2012 19:18 Forbidden17 wrote: Sorry if this was discussed before, I ran through every post and didn't see a mention of this.
When do you recommend getting your 3rd/4th gas and do you immediately rally a second voidray to the first?
3rd and 4th gas immediately before twilight council, which should happen around 8 min. And yes, rally a 2nd void to the 1st, and then make a phoenix for scouting.
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Do you have a gut sense of if an MC style 1 gate expand into 3 gate stargate could transition smoothly into this endgame composition? The MC unit comp starts off fairly close using 3 voidrays and a Phoenix to deny / harass / delay the zergs third.
So you move into the midgame with toss on two bases and with a bunch of rays and Zerg either on 2 bases or more often on 3 bases but haveing spent a lot of resources on "not drones". Since the openings converge at this point it strikes me that they might both be able to lead to the same endgame. Any thoughts?
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On January 05 2012 11:07 kcdc wrote: I'm not very good, so I don't have any replays where both parties play perfectly or even particularly well.
That's a lot of modesty from the guy who made a guide on 1-gate expanding in PvT more or less exactly like a lot of the pros do now back in an era when people thought you needed to go for Colossus off 1 base. I'm not saying you're going to the GSL anytime soon, but admit it - you at least play "well".
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On January 06 2012 02:49 General_Winter wrote: Do you have a gut sense of if an MC style 1 gate expand into 3 gate stargate could transition smoothly into this endgame composition? The MC unit comp starts off fairly close using 3 voidrays and a Phoenix to deny / harass / delay the zergs third.
So you move into the midgame with toss on two bases and with a bunch of rays and Zerg either on 2 bases or more often on 3 bases but haveing spent a lot of resources on "not drones". Since the openings converge at this point it strikes me that they might both be able to lead to the same endgame. Any thoughts?
I'm sure you could get to that comp off of a gate expand with sentries, but it'd be a totally different build, and I suspect you'd need to wait longer and do it off of more bases. I don't think I've seen a macro-oriented gate expand strategy that doesn't lean heavily on blink stalkers, so I don't see how you'd have the gas for a templar+air transition until late late game.
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We practiced this a bunch last night, it's a lost stronger than I initially assumed. I spoke with a few friends and I believe I have a counter to it. Testing shortly
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I can't help but feel that just relentless zerg aggression would beat this off of 3 base vs 2. You're getting SO much tech out in a short window.... I don't see how you survive a 12-13 minute roach/hydra timing from a good zerg. You won't have nearly enough storms to make hydras a non issue.
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Once this composition kicks in, there is no practical solution that the Zerg can deal with the maxed out deathball. No, no amounts of broodlord corrupter infester will be able to deal with this.
Those mid-game timings that the Zerg can do with either it be roach/hydra, roach/ling, banelings, drops, could be very dangerous though. I think it would be a good build to mix in your game if you don't favor aggressive playstyle, and are pretty good at reading when and what the Zerg is trying to hit you with.
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On January 06 2012 03:45 Flonomenalz wrote: I can't help but feel that just relentless zerg aggression would beat this off of 3 base vs 2. You're getting SO much tech out in a short window.... I don't see how you survive a 12-13 minute roach/hydra timing from a good zerg. You won't have nearly enough storms to make hydras a non issue.
The problem is a zerg can't have enough stuff out to stop with the initial pressure or their tech is delayed. I keep losing my 3rd against him.
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I posted a topic like this a few days ago but yours is just better... I concede.
EDIT: I do it a bit differently though. I generally start with a double stargate opener to prevent mutalisks from happening and to do some damage. I prefer a midgame of zealot archon templar. It allows you to be far more aggressive and as long as you hit the transition timing correctly you are safe vs anything really even a faster blord timing as you get your mothership and carriers on 3 base while taking extra bases. I have gone for other compositions but immortals and voidrays are a little too expensive for my liking and delay your vital tech. The only time I really die is vs 2 base all in if I macro poorly, take a greedy third if I know they havent. Or If micro poorly while taking 4th.
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Here's a close one between Drone and I.
http://drop.sc/85237
Note that during his first big attack, he'd probably have been better off grouping his whole force together, but I'd have been better off using the 3 storms that I morphed into archons right at 75 energy.
Also, toward the end of the game, the worker kill count is 73 to 0 in his favor, but i win anyway which is pretty funny.
I've mostly had success against Drone (tho I did lose a couple to some obvious micro problems), but his friend Sky was able to bust me twice because I didn't have enough gates and I warped in only zealots during the fights which meant that I didn't have storms in time for Z's next attack.
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On January 06 2012 05:07 sofakng wrote: I posted a topic like this a few days ago but yours is just better... I concede.
EDIT: I do it a bit differently though. I generally start with a double stargate opener to prevent mutalisks from happening and to do some damage. I prefer a midgame of zealot archon templar. It allows you to be far more aggressive and as long as you hit the transition timing correctly you are safe vs anything really even a faster blord timing as you get your mothership and carriers on 3 base while taking extra bases. I have gone for other compositions but immortals and voidrays are a little too expensive for my liking and delay your vital tech. The only time I really die is vs 2 base all in if I macro poorly, take a greedy third if I know they havent. Or If micro poorly while taking 4th.
I'd have to see it, but without immortals or voids, I'm not sure how you handle mass roach. Zealot-archon is fun, but it's bad vs roaches.
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to anyone saying "LOL WILL LOSE TO HYRDA ROACH CORRUPTOR ULTRA BANELING INFESTEDS"
no, it wont. Zerg has nothing that will beat a maxed carrier archon/strom army. No 200/200 zerg army can even take off more than 30 supply. of course getting a maxed archon carrier army is not easy for protoss, but it really forces the zerg to attack and deny a third and forth etc. This is a totally viable composition, if, at the very least you can put up with nearly every game being really long.
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On January 06 2012 05:51 navy wrote: to anyone saying "LOL WILL LOSE TO HYRDA ROACH CORRUPTOR ULTRA BANELING INFESTEDS"
no, it wont. Zerg has nothing that will beat a maxed carrier archon/strom army. No 200/200 zerg army can even take off more than 30 supply. of course getting a maxed archon carrier army is not easy for protoss, but it really forces the zerg to attack and deny a third and forth etc. This is a totally viable composition, if, at the very least you can put up with nearly every game being really long.
Neural a probe and make blink stalkers.
Kidding aside, this statement probably takes more testing. I'm guessing that there is an army that can take at least 30 supply away - and keep in mind that the only reason storm and/or archons work so well against corruptors (which destroy carriers and motherships) is because they clump together. Imagine if you knew the attack was coming, you intentionally spread your corruptors out to random locations so that when they came to kill the mothership, they came at different angles. Or, imagine you had the APM/a trick which allowed you to keep your corruptors out of storm range of each other. If storm/archons don't work so well on corruptors anymore, the carriers and mothership die.
I'm not saying this is easy or even possible to do, but I am saying that no one is working on tricks like these because in most games is isn't relevant - and you certainly aren't usually expecting carriers.
Also, even if there isn't - except for the archons, this is one of the slowest armies out there - there may be ways to end the game that don't involve head-on engagements.
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@treehead
you may be correct. I havent done extensive testing, but ive seen this strategy a few times and played against it a few times and have yet to see any army come close to scratching it. Also nothing really comes to mind, just thinking about it from a theory crafting perspective.
Mainly due to the range of carriers combined with the strong defense to all zerg units which can oppose carriers provided by the archons/storm.
Furthermore, basetrades are made very hard by simply leaving the mothership at home and then recalling to crush the zerg army. Also, armies that are corruptor heavy are not good at killing bases.
I suppose with ENOUGH economy you might be able to wipe the entire ground force with mass baneling and then remax on corruptor hydra, but it is hard because the protoss can always attack themselves.
I think with this strategy the real fight takes place as the protoss is taking their third and fourth. That's when drop play/muta/ timing attacks are really the strongest.
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If P does make it to late game in good shape, the best composition for Z is lots and lots of corruptors with a little supply in BLs and infestors. If you spread micro your corruptors and storm dodge, you can do solid damage to the deathball. P is still heavily favored in any engagement, but it's way better for Z than having hydras or fewer corruptors.
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Thank you kcdc, I always see WhiteRa and HongUn do this (not the build order per se, but the composition) on their streams and have never really known how to get to that point safely. I'll try to practice it really hard in order to add it into my arsenal.
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This is an awesome write-up! I've been looking for a nice X ==into>> Carrier transition for 1v1s, and this should work nicely 
Although, this thread breaks my heart as we have a "carrier build" (I use that term lightly) just in time for it to be removed in HotS
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A played a toss in mid masters doing this build just now. I had max hydra roach, and then remaxed on hydras roach again. Neither army even dented his. Maybe next time I will go queen corruptor infestor? Hmmm... Yeah... Maybe that would work if I have a ton of spines and manage to fungal all his zealots AND THEN make brood lords to finish everything. I'm gonna have a lot of trouble if this build gets popular.
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Yeah, I'm not looking forward to swapping the carrier for the tempest. I doubt tempests will have enough range to hit broodlords while being covered by archons, so they're going to need to be able to engage corruptors head-on in order to fight BL+infestor. And if they can engage corruptors head-on, the MU is broken.
Carriers are OP even losing badly to corruptors. Imagine a carrier that was actually good against corruptors.....
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On January 06 2012 07:29 DeltruS wrote: A played a toss in mid masters doing this build just now. I had max hydra roach, and then remaxed on hydras roach again. Neither army even dented his. Maybe next time I will go queen corruptor infestor? Hmmm... Yeah... Maybe that would work if I have a ton of spines and manage to fungal all his zealots AND THEN make brood lords to finish everything. I'm gonna have a lot of trouble if this build gets popular.
Sounds like a good plan. Throw in some drops as well to force him to attack or have his economy slowly whittled away, but don't put too much supply into the drops. You need a LOT of corruptors.
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Ive seen zerg GM fitzyhere use mass queens mixed in extensively to beat compositions similar to this, zergs really should look into it
edit:
specifically, queen/broodlord/infestor, sometimes with corruptor/ling/roach mixed in
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Thanks for writing up this guide. I'm honored Here are my comments on some of the things discussed, I only briefly read through everything so let me know if I missed something that's still under debate.
Defending the 3rd: Yes this is the weakest point of this build, but it's far from impossible and if you play around a bit and get used to the timings it becomes easier. Pretty much it just revolves around having storm ready, otherwise you can't kill the hydras. Actually a lot of my games involve the the zerg killing my 3rd before I have enough to defend (i.e. storm 30 seconds from being done), then when storm finally finishes I can clean up his push, so effectively I'm trading my 3rd for his army. But this army composition is so strong that I can still win with that temporary eco disadvantage as long as I still have my core of tech units alive (voids/immortals/HTs/archons etc.).
2 stargate vs 1 stargate: Like kcdc mentioned, one thing I do differently from this guide is that I add a 2nd stargate instead of an earlier robo/immortals. It's personal preference really, and both should work, since the main goal of both is to counter roaches (I make extra voids to counter roaches, this guide goes for faster/more immortals to counter roaches). I like voids better because they are more mobile so I can also use them to deny the zerg's 4th and harass the main/expos.
Chrono'ed gateway vs chrono'ed warpgate tech: Both styles will get you a nice force of +1 zeals at the 8:00 mark. The difference is that if you chrono your gateway (or even go dual gateway after FFE), you get those zealots earlier which help with 2 things: breaking down your rocks to get ready to expand to your 3rd, and also perhaps to have even better early game scouting/pressure. If you chrono your warpgate tech, reinforcements to keep the pressure on the zerg's 3rd become much easier especially if he's not really ready to defend against the zealots. I recommend chronoing gateway for maps like tal darim and shattered where you need to break down rocks for your 3rd, and chronoing warpgate tech for all other maps.
HT vs colossus: Colossus is the more popular route and I've seen a lot of players go 2 stargate > 2 robo colo. Both styles are viable, I would just play around with both to see what you like better. Strategically, the main difference is that mass corruptor is a great counter to stargate > colo play, whereas mass corruptor will fail hard against stargate > HT play. That's another reason why I like to open 2 stargate - some zergs will see my mass air and respond with corruptors to both help counter my air and also to counter the colo that they are expecting to see me transition into. Then I win with HT. However, if you transition into colo it does become a bit easier to hold off those mid game roach/hydra attacks on your 3rd.
Best zerg response? Hydras are the worst answer possible, and it falls into exactly what the Protoss wants the zerg to do. While a roach/hydra mid-game attack on the protoss's 3rd is really strong, if you fail to win the game at that timing you've lost the game. The ratio of roach:hydra is also very difficult, since you basically just want just enough hydra to defend against voids, because too many = you lose to mass zeal because not enough roaches, and not enough = lose to voids/storm. Infestors are ok, but the protoss already has a lot of HT so it's not the best response. Corruptors are bad too because since not only do they don't exactly counter voids, they're expensive and you just lose the ground battle if you overmake corruptors.
Roach > muta is really good in my experience. Plain mass roach/ling while expanding is good too (think mondragon style roaches > voids) if you keep counter attacking and not letting the protoss get their 3rd, and then eventually you can switch to whatever and win because it's 4 or 5 base to 2. Queens are also great, if you get good creep spread then roach/queen/infestor is extremely powerful against this.
Some replays for you (may be 1-2 month old, haven't played too much recently/holidays) http://drop.sc/63059 http://drop.sc/63060 http://drop.sc/58587 http://drop.sc/58588
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Thanks for the comments rsvp. I'll add it to the OP if you don't mind since this guide is really about your build, and the OP could use some higher level replays than what I can provide.
In response to:
2 stargate vs 1 stargate: Like kcdc mentioned, one thing I do differently from this guide is that I add a 2nd stargate instead of an earlier robo/immortals. It's personal preference really, and both should work, since the main goal of both is to counter roaches (I make extra voids to counter roaches, this guide goes for faster/more immortals to counter roaches). I like voids better because they are more mobile so I can also use them to deny the zerg's 4th and harass the main/expos.
and
Plain mass roach/ling while expanding is good too (think mondragon style roaches > voids) if you keep counter attacking and not letting the protoss get their 3rd, and then eventually you can switch to whatever and win because it's 4 or 5 base to 2.
Mondragon style roaches are the primary reason that I favor a 9 minute robo with chronoboosted immortal production. I found that while voids are critical to the build since they punish roach kiting and encourage Z to bring hydras off creep, voids don't always DPS roaches down fast enough to preserve your economy. Delaying the 2nd stargate and cutting a void or 2 for more immortals, in my experience, can help save your third.
But you're 100% right that voids are much more mobile, and they're more helpful if Z does anything besides trying to bust your front.
I've seen you defend the front-busting style of roach-hydra pushes with basically just storms and voids tho, and it's pretty sick.
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On January 06 2012 05:48 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 05:07 sofakng wrote: I posted a topic like this a few days ago but yours is just better... I concede.
EDIT: I do it a bit differently though. I generally start with a double stargate opener to prevent mutalisks from happening and to do some damage. I prefer a midgame of zealot archon templar. It allows you to be far more aggressive and as long as you hit the transition timing correctly you are safe vs anything really even a faster blord timing as you get your mothership and carriers on 3 base while taking extra bases. I have gone for other compositions but immortals and voidrays are a little too expensive for my liking and delay your vital tech. The only time I really die is vs 2 base all in if I macro poorly, take a greedy third if I know they havent. Or If micro poorly while taking 4th. I'd have to see it, but without immortals or voids, I'm not sure how you handle mass roach. Zealot-archon is fun, but it's bad vs roaches.
You have faster carriers and mothership. You basically are delaying your late game while i rush to it and use excess zealots and storms to defend while building up carrier supply. I have a guide in this forum as well. Not as good as yours but includes some of my recent replays.
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On January 06 2012 07:31 kcdc wrote: Yeah, I'm not looking forward to swapping the carrier for the tempest. I doubt tempests will have enough range to hit broodlords while being covered by archons, so they're going to need to be able to engage corruptors head-on in order to fight BL+infestor. And if they can engage corruptors head-on, the MU is broken.
Carriers are OP even losing badly to corruptors. Imagine a carrier that was actually good against corruptors.....
I still think carriers suck though. All the games I seen I think you would have won more easily if you went with colossi instead of carriers. Carriers just have an abysmal damage output for their cost compared to colossi and die to the same units basically. The big plus for colossi is that they share your zealot/archon attack upgrades while carriers need their own, and carriers without attack upgrades are even more crap. A carrier with 8 interceptors does 21 dps vs roaches, and only 16 vs corruptors given no upgrades on either side. That's just terrible for it's cost. It's practically the same as 2 stalkers vs armored units..
The lategame part of this strategy is very good because of the power of storm/archon + mothership imo, carriers serve no important role imo and might as well be replaced with stalkers and colossi in my opinion. The only thing the carrier has going for it I think is that it forces AA, comes from an otherwise idle building and is better against muta then colossi but all those points are pretty moot when it's lategame. Zerg will be making corruptors anyway, buidling efficiency is of minimal importance and the window for muta has generally passed already.
When i see these carrier strats I wonder why you don't go earlier for them? If you have the stargate anyways relatively quick carriers actually becomes quite feasible, the fleet beacon isn't much more expensive then a robo for example and you could get them early where there might be a window for them to be used when zerg isn't making much AA yet. If you're plan is to use them anyway because you think it's a good combat unit I don't see a reason not to get them a little earlier, I could see for example getting carrier before ht or something like that (as carriers are actually quite decent against hydra's).
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youre missing one critical point: colossi cant attack air. the one unit zerg can muster endgame to destroy a protoss army are the broodlords. carriers with these support units are untouchable and they have an incredible range. once you get to the critical mass of carrier no one can stop them. and if you intent to go mass air, you should ofc upgrade air as well. interceptors have 2 attacks so they will scale better with upgrades than corruptors (armor at least).
just read the op again and i really dont understand why you cant see the purpose of the carriers. they just wont die and to terrible terrible damage ^^
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Plus with carriers you can outrange infestors and prevent the zerg from mass fungaling your army, which is pretty good if you don't have enough energy on your HTs to feedback infestors and storm everything.
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Arent carriers like really bad with MS because interceptors get caugth really easily on the vortex.
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why should that matter? who cares? when the units are in the vortex, there is no need for them anyway. as long as the archons get in...
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On January 06 2012 16:03 Feos wrote: youre missing one critical point: colossi cant attack air. the one unit zerg can muster endgame to destroy a protoss army are the broodlords. carriers with these support units are untouchable and they have an incredible range. once you get to the critical mass of carrier no one can stop them. and if you intent to go mass air, you should ofc upgrade air as well. interceptors have 2 attacks so they will scale better with upgrades than corruptors (armor at least).
just read the op again and i really dont understand why you cant see the purpose of the carriers. they just wont die and to terrible terrible damage ^^
Yes colossi not being able to attack air is a major weakness but their low gast cost also makes them easy to pair with some stalkers. Carriers or colossi both die to corruptors so the flying aspect of the carrier is surprisingly often not really relevant. It is true the traditional colossus army has a big problem approaching the broodlord/infestor army but the mothership solves this. There is no 'critical mass' for carriers, they die super hard to corruptors unless you're using the archon toilet...
Also why do people keep saying this nonsense that units with two attacks scale better with upgrades. It's the most retarded statement there is. First of all it does not matter AT ALL if it's two attacks or 1 attack, it matters what the base damage is. Yes carriers have low base damage hence a high increase per attack upgrade, however the reverse is also true: armor upgrades are super effective against carriers. It is often unlikely that you'll be ahead in air upgrades to zergs armor upgrades as you start off with a mostly ground based army.
I don't know as I'm still testing different styles a lot but I think it's clear in PvZ nowadays that you just want to end up with a 200/200 army with mothership and archons. I don't even think the rest matters a lot as long as you force corruptors and have some good AA to abuse the archontoilet. I just think that using some colossi and stalkers for the midgame is a safer route to get there then rushing templar. As mentioned before in other threads, colossi are usually just a smoother transition as you gradually pay for them and 1 colossus already helps tremendously. With templar you pay so much up front just to get 1 storm at the critical moment, when they push your third. I'll gladly trade a slightly weaker endgame for more easy defending the third. I also find the quick HT strat to be actually a bit weaker against muta. Perhaps you'll be quicker with getting HT + blink stalkers eventually but in the window where you have no stalkers and teching to HT you're tremendously vulnerable. With colossus play you at least have a good amount of stalkers so not too hard to get blink soon.
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On January 06 2012 22:54 Markwerf wrote:
Yes colossi not being able to attack air is a major weakness but their low gast cost also makes them easy to pair with some stalkers. Carriers or colossi both die to corruptors so the flying aspect of the carrier is surprisingly often not really relevant. It is true the traditional colossus army has a big problem approaching the broodlord/infestor army but the mothership solves this. There is no 'critical mass' for carriers, they die super hard to corruptors unless you're using the archon toilet...
Also why do people keep saying this nonsense that units with two attacks scale better with upgrades. It's the most retarded statement there is. First of all it does not matter AT ALL if it's two attacks or 1 attack, it matters what the base damage is. Yes carriers have low base damage hence a high increase per attack upgrade, however the reverse is also true: armor upgrades are super effective against carriers. It is often unlikely that you'll be ahead in air upgrades to zergs armor upgrades as you start off with a mostly ground based army.
The flying aspect is totally relevant as it rules out baneling drops and roach flanks as an ability to take out your power unit, as is the ability to continue attacking while running away, as is the fact that only carriers can attack broodlords while being at a safe distance from the corruptors.
An interceptor does 10 damage base, but because it's in two attacks, when you get +1 attack, it increases to 12 damage base. If they did 10 damage in one attack, it would only increase to 11 when you got +1 (assuming they scaled like every other unit in the game). This is why people say that. It doesn't take the enemy's armor upgrades into account, but that's the rationale and it's situationally correct (the situation being "as long as you stay ahead in upgrades"). If your point is that multuiple attacks scale better with your upgrades, but also scale horibly with their upgrades, I don't think anyone will disagree - but if they don't know your endgame goal is carriers, they can't prematurely go for armor upgrades, whereas you can prematurely go for attack upgrades. Sure, that doesn't mean multiple attacks are better the singular ones - but it does mean that the statement is far from "the most retarded statement there is".
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I've played against a build very simular to this, however the guy I played relighed on mass phenoix and zelots till carriers poped out. Once a protoss gets 3-4 carriers out, its OVER for the zerg. The zerg has 0 units that are cost effective vs carriers. And carriers + pheonix = by by corruptors and hydra. I played it 2 or 3 times and never found a good counter to it aside from all-in attempts the second I spotted dual stargates, even then most of the all-in's just failed
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Merkwerf, nobody is forcing you to play this style of templar into carriers, so if you like stalker, archon, colossus, you can keep using it. It's a viable style.
But it seems silly to me to pretend that carriers don't have a role in lategame PvZ.
Sure, carriers don't have good damage for cost, but broodlord+infestor poses tactical challenges that any Protoss composition without carriers will have trouble solving. Broodlord+infestor deals massive anti-ground damage at siege range, and fungals lock your army in place and out of range. Stalkers and void rays can't reliably get in range of the BL's, and they die very quickly against BL+infestor.
Vortex helps, but good Zergs don't let you hit more than a third of their army, and they're getting better at dealing with vortex every day since it's become much more common. And archon+mothership loses to 2/3 of a BL+infestor army because the archons are essentially melee range and they're immobile against broodlings and fungals.
But if a big chunk of your army supply is in carriers, you can respond to the siege range AtG BL's with siege range AtA carriers which is a big win. Against carriers, Zerg's two scariest units, broodlords and infestors, are more or less useless. It forces Z to fight with crappy units like corruptors or hydras. Moreover, it forces Z to bring his units to you where your archons, stalkers, and storms can reliably deal big damage.
To summarize, you don't make carriers for their DPS. You make them for their AA range, their tankiness, and their invulnerability against BL's and infestors.
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On January 07 2012 01:11 rustypipe wrote: I've played against a build very simular to this, however the guy I played relighed on mass phenoix and zelots till carriers poped out. Once a protoss gets 3-4 carriers out, its OVER for the zerg. The zerg has 0 units that are cost effective vs carriers. And carriers + pheonix = by by corruptors and hydra. I played it 2 or 3 times and never found a good counter to it aside from all-in attempts the second I spotted dual stargates, even then most of the all-in's just failed
Neither Phoenix nor Carriers are cost effective against Corruptors without storm. They both have too much damage mitigated by the Corruptor's armor. Next time, just make a big pile of corruptors and +1 armor if you have time and morph some to broods after you kill his army.
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From my experiences the real benefit of carriers is that they allow you to actually attack into a well defended zerg location in the late game. Once the dreaded BL/Infestor combo is out in full force and they spam spine crawlers on their side of the map there is really no way for you attack in to that position if they properly spread out their forces so it isn't all insta-gibbed by a single vortex. Motherships are much better at defending than attacking into late game zerg armies. Of course another option is to try to circumvent the entrenched zerg defenses with blink and recalls and drops and what not but carriers remain the only truly viable way to break a well setup zerg defense at this stage of the game.
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Ugh...it sounds appealing, but I honestly can't get myself to build Carriers. If it involves a lot of Stargates, I don't want to do it. It just never seems to work.
But I like the philosophy...maybe I'll give it a try we'll see.
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just won another game by trading my late game army for carriers archons templar and a mothership. zerg just ended up leaving.
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hey kcdc immortal high templar voidray combo is the most powerfull death ball i ever withness.
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Just tried this on Shakuras. Trying to get a third made me cry... :S
Waiting till tomorrow to try it on another map. It's fun to play though, I like it!
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So I assume you don't do this build on maps with wide open naturals like metal and XNC? I didn't see a replay of this on that map and I'm assuming because it's not really possible to defend your natural w/o sentries when you can't wall-off your ramp.
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On January 07 2012 17:00 Skyro wrote: So I assume you don't do this build on maps with wide open naturals like metal and XNC? I didn't see a replay of this on that map and I'm assuming because it's not really possible to defend your natural w/o sentries when you can't wall-off your ramp.
If a map allows an FFE and a reasonably close third, you can do this build. A lot of people don't like FFE on Metal or XNC, so they probably won't be tempted by this build on those maps.
I do think that in general, if you can FFE on a map, you don't need any sentries if you scout Zerg playing a standard double expand which you need to do on all maps before committing to this build. So while an open natural may be a determinant as to whether you want to FFE on a map, it shouldn't be a big factor as to whether you need to build sentries. You need sentries on just about any map if you think Z might all-in, and you don't need them on any map if you scout a third.
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i've seen builds that share a lot of the same concepts, namely - saving gas for the ability to reach two tech paths while getting a third and being able to survive, by not making stalkers. i usually go into ht/chargelot/immo/vr like your guide does, but i never thought of carriers as a viable late game transition.
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Ok I watched the rep of frist game on Shakuras.
Army you get there seems more like protoss version of Mech. Immortals, VR, Zealots, Templars are not what you would call mobile units...
I think this game plan wont work against more mobile compositions like infestor/ling muta/ling. Stalkers give you ability to blink and chase someone. Problem is in the midgame. Cannon dont cut the defence from Muta, and if you leave templar on each base you better watch it as hard as you can. Also that game you dont get sentries in midgame and against smart surround and fungal it would be gg..
I would love to if you would prove me wrong because stalker is 125/50 and i want more cost efficiency, but for now i dont see other way to play. IMO you have to combat speed (muta/lings) with speed (blink stalker)
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University of Utah vs UCLA set 4.
I used this build earlier today in my CSL match against UCLA. I made a ton of mistakes and the build didn't go exactly to recipe, but I recommend checking this out. I'll have the replay posted here later.
The other games from the match are in the most recent VODs on "freakon"'s stream. Some rather epic TvZ's occurred.
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Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you.
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Been playing around with when to get my 2nd stargate, and I think it's a good idea to get it after your third but before your fourth. Edited OP deleting the paragraph about the option of double robo (it's good against roach hydra, but immortals don't hit mutas which I think will become the norm against this build), and added this in its place:
After I feel that I have enough storms banked up that I'm not in any immediate danger (maybe around 100 or 120 supply), I like to add my 2nd stargate. You can sometimes hit a point of diminishing return where more storms, zealots, and even immortals won't do much for you, but more voids is almost always a good thing, and having a second stargate can help against a late batch of mutas. If you're set on zealots and templar and feel like you can bring the fight to Z, you can also make round of stalkers and push, but be very careful about engaging on creep. Zealots and storms are both MUCH better off creep, so expect your army to feel a lot weaker when it's used offensively.
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I had a game go to carriers for the first time today... and promptly lost them to a billion corruptors, but hey. That's the first time I've ever seriously made them, and it felt goooood.
Actually I have to say, I've never enjoyed PvZ as much as when I started doing this style. It's at the point where I all but punch the air when I roll a zerg, just because it's so fun to do... even when I lose... which happens a lot.
Mostly I find myself losing to big 2 base plays that I'm taking too long to scout. What's your standard series of manoeuvres to confirm the third, kcdc?
I'm finding that if he's dilligent with lings/OL scouting he can kill my hidden probe quite quickly, and if he makes even a couple of extra rounds of lings and parks them outside my base, I have trouble getting anything to the third until I'm starting the timing attack in earnest. I find this to be a particular issue on maps where there's a number of possible locations for the third, like Tal'darim.
And, on a related note, assuming you discover there's no third at around the time your first vray is coming out... what do you normally do? My gut reaction is to chrono a phoenix after vray and scout his tech, but I feel like I'd be in danger of losing my nat to roach-ling without a second vray if it turns out to be that particular all-in...
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On January 08 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote: Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you.
All of my teammates were asking each other, "Is this real life?" I made a mistake at every single opportunity I had to make one...but the composition was so efficient against his pushes that it was irrelevant.
Here's the replay so that my shame might be your entertainment.
Replay.
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Nice guide, I've been doing some similar PvZ with stargate opening into zealot immortal archon/HT. It really is a jack of all trades composition and works very well.
Replay number 2, units lost resources = LOL
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On January 08 2012 15:35 Belisarius wrote: I had a game go to carriers for the first time today... and promptly lost them to a billion corruptors, but hey. That's the first time I've ever seriously made them, and it felt goooood.
Actually I have to say, I've never enjoyed PvZ as much as when I started doing this style. It's at the point where I all but punch the air when I roll a zerg, just because it's so fun to do... even when I lose... which happens a lot.
Mostly I find myself losing to big 2 base plays that I'm taking too long to scout. What's your standard series of manoeuvres to confirm the third, kcdc?
I'm finding that if he's dilligent with lings/OL scouting he can kill my hidden probe quite quickly, and if he makes even a couple of extra rounds of lings and parks them outside my base, I have trouble getting anything to the third until I'm starting the timing attack in earnest. I find this to be a particular issue on maps where there's a number of possible locations for the third, like Tal'darim.
And, on a related note, assuming you discover there's no third at around the time your first vray is coming out... what do you normally do? My gut reaction is to chrono a phoenix after vray and scout his tech, but I feel like I'd be in danger of losing my nat to roach-ling without a second vray if it turns out to be that particular all-in...
Glad you're enjoying the build. It's a little unorthodox and it's constantly challenging with a high skill ceiling, so it's a lot of fun to play.
About scouting, it sounds like you might be setting out a little late. If you have a replay, I can try to figure out what you might improve, but what I do is:
(1) scout whether gas before hatch (2) plant pylon before lings come down (14/14 lings arrive at 3:45ish, so plant pylon before 3:40), and place probe outside natural and to the side a little (3) after lings clear pylon, I give them a few seconds to run out into the map, and I loop my probe back into Z's base to check gas again--try to skirt around the edge of the creep as this will keep your probe alive longer against the queen and any chasing lings (4) if no extractor is built or the drones are taken off gas after 100 mined, Z is most likely dropping third. Sometimes you'll see the drone going down the ramp on his way to become a third hatch as your probe is coming up the ramp. (5) except against speedling expand, you can send a second probe out into the map, perhaps with a zealot escort to confirm the location of the third since only speedling expand will have speed early enough to kill the scouting probe at this timing
I try not to do this opening against 2-base play because it tends to die pretty hard against roach-ling, bling-ling and hydra all-ins. I suppose if you took a calculated risk and guessed wrong, you'd probably want to make as many cannons as you need to stay safe, make a phoenix to scout, patrol a probe to deny nydus, and rush for storm (or colossi if you know it's not 2-base muta) because a hydra bust will kill you if you don't have AoE out in time.
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On January 08 2012 15:41 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote: Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you. All of my teammates were asking each other, "Is this real life?" I made a mistake at every single opportunity I had to make one...but the composition was so efficient against his pushes that it was irrelevant. Here's the replay so that my shame might be your entertainment. Replay.
Out of curiosity, were you expected to win in that match? It seemed like played a lot cleaner (besides having no idea what to do against your build), although your mistakes were probably because you were using a newer build. The spectators and commentators seemed shocked that your strategy was working.
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On January 09 2012 00:59 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 15:41 Chemist391 wrote:On January 08 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote: Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you. All of my teammates were asking each other, "Is this real life?" I made a mistake at every single opportunity I had to make one...but the composition was so efficient against his pushes that it was irrelevant. Here's the replay so that my shame might be your entertainment. Replay. Out of curiosity, were you expected to win in that match? It seemed like played a lot cleaner (besides having no idea what to do against your build), although your mistakes were probably because you were using a newer build. The spectators and commentators seemed shocked that your strategy was working.
UofU is ranked significantly higher than UCLA in the CSL, though we are from different divisions, so it was a tough call. They have a deep roster of strong masters, and our GM ace was not yet back from S. Korea. At the time of the match (yesterday), I was 417 master and Tak was ~550 masters. I chose to use this build because my opponent was ranked higher than me and faces tougher opponents on ladder, and I figured that he would not have seen this before, which could give me an edge. I also felt that this build plays to my strengths.
I generally do not make nearly that many mistakes, but I was pretty nervous as my team was on the line...I barely managed my split because my hands were shaking. The poor scouting, probe management, and build hiccups are rather uncharacteristic. And yes, that was my 4th time attempting that build...so that contributed heavily to the silliness. I felt pretty lucky that he attempted a roach/hydra push 3 separate times.
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On January 09 2012 00:51 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 15:35 Belisarius wrote: I had a game go to carriers for the first time today... and promptly lost them to a billion corruptors, but hey. That's the first time I've ever seriously made them, and it felt goooood.
Actually I have to say, I've never enjoyed PvZ as much as when I started doing this style. It's at the point where I all but punch the air when I roll a zerg, just because it's so fun to do... even when I lose... which happens a lot.
Mostly I find myself losing to big 2 base plays that I'm taking too long to scout. What's your standard series of manoeuvres to confirm the third, kcdc?
I'm finding that if he's dilligent with lings/OL scouting he can kill my hidden probe quite quickly, and if he makes even a couple of extra rounds of lings and parks them outside my base, I have trouble getting anything to the third until I'm starting the timing attack in earnest. I find this to be a particular issue on maps where there's a number of possible locations for the third, like Tal'darim.
And, on a related note, assuming you discover there's no third at around the time your first vray is coming out... what do you normally do? My gut reaction is to chrono a phoenix after vray and scout his tech, but I feel like I'd be in danger of losing my nat to roach-ling without a second vray if it turns out to be that particular all-in... Glad you're enjoying the build. It's a little unorthodox and it's constantly challenging with a high skill ceiling, so it's a lot of fun to play. About scouting, it sounds like you might be setting out a little late. If you have a replay, I can try to figure out what you might improve, but what I do is: (1) scout whether gas before hatch (2) plant pylon before lings come down (14/14 lings arrive at 3:45ish, so plant pylon before 3:40), and place probe outside natural and to the side a little (3) after lings clear pylon, I give them a few seconds to run out into the map, and I loop my probe back into Z's base to check gas again--try to skirt around the edge of the creep as this will keep your probe alive longer against the queen and any chasing lings (4) if no extractor is built or the drones are taken off gas after 100 mined, Z is most likely dropping third. Sometimes you'll see the drone going down the ramp on his way to become a third hatch as your probe is coming up the ramp. (5) except against speedling expand, you can send a second probe out into the map, perhaps with a zealot escort to confirm the location of the third since only speedling expand will have speed early enough to kill the scouting probe at this timing I try not to do this opening against 2-base play because it tends to die pretty hard against roach-ling, bling-ling and hydra all-ins. I suppose if you took a calculated risk and guessed wrong, you'd probably want to make as many cannons as you need to stay safe, make a phoenix to scout, patrol a probe to deny nydus, and rush for storm (or colossi if you know it's not 2-base muta) because a hydra bust will kill you if you don't have AoE out in time.
Thanks very much.
At work, can't post replay, etc etc, standard excuse, but I think frankly I'm just awful at hiding the probe. I always 9scout and block the hatch, and then go ferret the probe away in a hole somewhere, but at least 2 times out of three an overlord wanders over my chosen hole, one of the lings moving onto the map checks it and kills me before I get back in, or they leave a ling just out from the nat and then intercept me at the top of their ramp with a queen.
Initially I thought maybe Zergs were just getting used to these kinds of openings and so getting good at probe-hunting, but I think perhaps I'm severely overestimating both my own ninja skills and their ninja-detecting skills. I'll work on it.
And I really do need to find a backup build against 2base or tech-before-third plays. Ever since I started doing openings like this and Her0's FFE, I've felt a little lost if Z doesn't play the game I want him to.
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so, how should this build deal with a big 3 base muta switch after some roach pressure on the third? i guess there's no other answer than warping in lots of stalkers and getting blink + cannons, but that still feels kind of weak after already building lots of zealot/immortal and void rays that do nothing vs mutas :/
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What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons
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On January 12 2012 05:19 uLysSeS1 wrote: so, how should this build deal with a big 3 base muta switch after some roach pressure on the third? i guess there's no other answer than warping in lots of stalkers and getting blink + cannons, but that still feels kind of weak after already building lots of zealot/immortal and void rays that do nothing vs mutas :/
You must scout and guess if a posible switch is coming. I personally use a phoenix to do the scout for the spire. If i see it, and no heavy gas usage, i know its muta, then i have time to prepare.
On January 12 2012 05:36 XRaDiiX wrote: What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons
If Z went directly to mutas, you can make damage with the zealot push, delaying, scouting and preparing for the mutas. If mutas catch you totally unprepared and with this build, you're prolly dead. And due to this, you must always check for the muta posibility (number of geisers, gas spending, and so) and prepare before hand.
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On January 12 2012 06:05 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:19 uLysSeS1 wrote: so, how should this build deal with a big 3 base muta switch after some roach pressure on the third? i guess there's no other answer than warping in lots of stalkers and getting blink + cannons, but that still feels kind of weak after already building lots of zealot/immortal and void rays that do nothing vs mutas :/ You must scout and guess if a posible switch is coming. I personally use a phoenix to do the scout for the spire. If i see it, and no heavy gas usage, i know its muta, then i have time to prepare. Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:36 XRaDiiX wrote: What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons If Z went directly to mutas, you can make damage with the zealot push, delaying, scouting and preparing for the mutas. If mutas catch you totally unprepared and with this build, you're prolly dead. And due to this, you must always check for the muta posibility (number of geisers, gas spending, and so) and prepare before hand.
yeah, i know that i can scout incoming mutas - i'm just asking what the best way to counter them is if i just secured my third against roaches and sit there with a bunch of chargelots, immortals, void rays and HT - those (with the exception of HT) are pretty bad vs mutas so if he commits heavily to mutas i don't know if such a late stalker switch can cut it
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On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive.
It is gas intensive, but you don't get it all at once?
On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over. .
Against HT/Immortal? Umm.............no?
On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans.
Again just...no? You have Immortals to tank the roaches and storms to counter both infested marines and hydras. Did you even read the post or are you just trying to troll?
On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote:What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers.
So do your infestors have infinite energy or what? You would need SO many infestors to make what you said viable and even if you did you would have to target fire each unit to avoid hitting interceptors and even if you did that you can't stop storms or feedbacks.
I don't think you've thought through what you have posted.
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Regarding 3-base muta, the zealot-void push should force roaches or do a ton of damage, so the muta transition should be relatively slow. I've actually been favoring double stargate phoenixes with storm support, but it's very micro-intensive and it requires a lot of practice. Needless to say, I'm not very good at it yet, but I think it has potential to be better than the more standard blink stalker route.
My current iteration of this strategy adds a 2nd SG after I have my third set up and a few storms banked, and if I scout a quick muta transition, I'll get the 2nd SG sooner.
Also, voids aren't bad vs mutas. 4 voids and 2 phoenix can usually deal with the first batch of mutas to buy time until you can build your phoenix count up.
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On January 12 2012 05:36 XRaDiiX wrote: What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons
I've been trying this strat PvZ for awhile, so far what I realized is that if zergs were going for 10 min mutas, they are very vulnerable to the ~8min voidray zealot +1 timing. If i scout the spire with the phoenix i make 1-2 canons per mineral line and place an archon (when possible, starting with the most likely to be harassed area first). This is more than enough to take out small groups of mutas while waiting for more support.
Plus, if they are MASSING mutas, no one is stopping you form switching back into some stalkers with HT and Archon support. Stopping VR production gives you the gas to do so
Thats just my opinion though, mine and my opponents bad execution of strats might be allowing all these to happen though lol.
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I know you say in the OP that this build should only be used if zerg is opening with an early third, but can it be used versus 2-base play??
Watching the replays, you generally put down your stargate at 6mins, so does that imply that you must confirm they are not playing 2-base before this timing? If so, how??
I wanted to explore the idea of using that void to take an early third, but sometimes I dont know for sure if they are doing 2-base play before the 6min mark (which I am assuming is the time u commit to such a build since thats when you put the stargate down).
So my questions are, if you open 6min stargate, 3gates as you have in the OP, how do you react to: 1) Roach/ling all-in at 7:15mins 2) 2-base roach/hydra 3) 2-base muta at 10mins???
Would really like to hear your opinion on if this is possible!
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 12 2012 18:21 bankai wrote:I know you say in the OP that this build should only be used if zerg is opening with an early third, but can it be used versus 2-base play?? Watching the replays, you generally put down your stargate at 6mins, so does that imply that you must confirm they are not playing 2-base before this timing? If so, how?? I wanted to explore the idea of using that void to take an early third, but sometimes I dont know for sure if they are doing 2-base play before the 6min mark (which I am assuming is the time u commit to such a build since thats when you put the stargate down). So my questions are, if you open 6min stargate, 3gates as you have in the OP, how do you react to: 1) Roach/ling all-in at 7:15mins 2) 2-base roach/hydra 3) 2-base muta at 10mins??? Would really like to hear your opinion on if this is possible! 
You should see his third (reaction to your ffe) going down with a scouting probe, or with your first zealot(s) when you move out. If you don't see one you can assume 2base play and abandon the build.
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Z's third should be down before 6 min, and if you're able to check the gas geysers at 4:30, that's another big tell as to whether Z is playing macro or tech.
The timings for this build are all screwed up against a 2-base Z. I'm not saying that the general strategy can't work against 2-base Z, but you'd need to adjust it pretty significantly.
Considerations vs 2-base Z:
-Z can defend with spines, and there will be plenty of creep for queen mobility, so the zealot void timing should be much weaker -Lair tech is online much faster, and Z doesn't need to dump gas on roaches, which means fast mutas, hydras and infestors are possible
rsvp has said that he doesn't do this strategy against 2-base Z because 2-base hydra timings are too difficult to defend, but my version of the build gets storm about 2 minutes faster than his. If you rush out storm by 11 min, you should be okay against 2-base hydra, particularly on large maps.
The problem with rushing out storm, however, is that you won't have AA in time for 2-base muta, so you need to scout faster. You'd probably want to skip the void timing entirely, make just 1 void for safety and then a phoenix to scout. If hydra, keep rushing out storm, and if spire, add a 2nd stargate or get blink stalkers.
Against 2-base infestor, you're probably okay doing the build as it's set out in the OP, but the zealot void timing should be pretty useless unless Z is excessively greedy.
I really don't know the timings against 2-base Z tho. If you want to force the strategy to work against 2-base Z, you can try, but it's definitely not anywhere close to optimized against fast lair strategies.
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Is it just me or can this be very weak if someone goes for an early roach push?
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I must say, as much as I'd love to bash this build for its countless weakness I'll refrain since you displayed it very well. Nicely written and well thought out too. I like it!
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kcdc, what do you think about double stargate aggression after the void ray +1 zealot timing instead of rushing for storm? A decent number of phoenix can cut down early hydra roach pushes better than void rays imo, and it shuts down muta play for a long time. I'm having a little difficulty at digesting how gas heavy this build is, it just doesn't seem possible that zergs let you get away with this, if they keep making small counter attacks and trading efficiently.
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I first witnessed this build on rsvp's stream (what a fantastic player and streamer btw!) and I was really impressed. My first impression was that this looked a bit gimmicky and probably wouldn't work a lot, but after watching it more, and reading this guide, I see that it is really solid. And such a refreshing and fun way to play PvZ!!
Thanks rsvp and kcdc <3
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I am convinced that this build is making me a better player in general, and giving me a deeper understanding of the PvZ matchup specifically. Because the timings are so thin, scouting and reacting correctly is much more important than with many stalker/collo based builds. The increased multitask necessary to execute a stargate-heavy build is also mechanically demanding. Every loss I take provides me with a replay where I can point to specific errors on my part that lost me the game, which is a fantastic learning tool.
Even if the metagame shifts against this build, I will try to stick with it for a while simply to get better.
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On January 13 2012 06:37 chestnutcc wrote: kcdc, what do you think about double stargate aggression after the void ray +1 zealot timing instead of rushing for storm? A decent number of phoenix can cut down early hydra roach pushes better than void rays imo, and it shuts down muta play for a long time. I'm having a little difficulty at digesting how gas heavy this build is, it just doesn't seem possible that zergs let you get away with this, if they keep making small counter attacks and trading efficiently.
rsvp does exactly that, although he keeps making mostly voids with only a couple phoenix. I think he makes the phoenix primarily for scouting and to be prepared for mutas, but he'll also work in some queen lifts if there's an opening.
I personally prefer getting storm quickly because you really can't defend until you have it, but rsvp makes it work by distracting the Z with his harass, pinning Z in a defensive position to buy time for the later storm.
Both styles can work--his is a little more offensive while mine is a little more defensive--but I personally prefer the quicker storm because it seems to leave Z with no timing window to break my defense.
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On January 13 2012 00:34 kcdc wrote: Z's third should be down before 6 min, and if you're able to check the gas geysers at 4:30, that's another big tell as to whether Z is playing macro or tech.
The timings for this build are all screwed up against a 2-base Z. I'm not saying that the general strategy can't work against 2-base Z, but you'd need to adjust it pretty significantly.
Considerations vs 2-base Z:
-Z can defend with spines, and there will be plenty of creep for queen mobility, so the zealot void timing should be much weaker -Lair tech is online much faster, and Z doesn't need to dump gas on roaches, which means fast mutas, hydras and infestors are possible
rsvp has said that he doesn't do this strategy against 2-base Z because 2-base hydra timings are too difficult to defend, but my version of the build gets storm about 2 minutes faster than his. If you rush out storm by 11 min, you should be okay against 2-base hydra, particularly on large maps.
The problem with rushing out storm, however, is that you won't have AA in time for 2-base muta, so you need to scout faster. You'd probably want to skip the void timing entirely, make just 1 void for safety and then a phoenix to scout. If hydra, keep rushing out storm, and if spire, add a 2nd stargate or get blink stalkers.
Against 2-base infestor, you're probably okay doing the build as it's set out in the OP, but the zealot void timing should be pretty useless unless Z is excessively greedy.
I really don't know the timings against 2-base Z tho. If you want to force the strategy to work against 2-base Z, you can try, but it's definitely not anywhere close to optimized against fast lair strategies.
Wow, thanks for such an in-depth answer!
So if I can confirm theres no third before 6min and check gas mined (below 2400 after 4:30min) then that means most likely 2-base play?
I noticed in your replay on Shattered Temple, the zerg went 2-base (plus an in-base hatch at his natural) and you still went for the zealot/void push...is there a reason why you still followed through on this build even though it was 2-base play? Because of long distances?
KCDC - just interested to know, what type of build would you suggest a plat player goes with if I confirm no third at 6mins? Perhaps throw down a robo instead of the stargate (at say 6-6:30min), then 4xGates (at 7:15min)?
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I can't watch the Shattered game again at the moment, but in general, if I see a delayed extractor or that Z isn't continuing to mine gas past 100, I go for this build even if I don't scout a third. This might have been what happened in the Shattered game.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good all-purpose build against 2-base Z. Builds that are good against 2-base hydra don't tend to be very good against 2-base muta and vice versa, so I'd recommend that you either pick a strong timing attack (maybe blink with +2 weapons) that will allow you to set the pace of the game, or work out a vanilla opening that leaves your options open until you scout what Z is doing. For example, after your FFE, you could get a quick robo, 4 or 5 gates, and a twilight council. When your obs gets to his base, you then have the infrastructure to get blink if muta or colossi if hydra or infestor.
For a plat player, your best bet might just be to pick a strong timing attack, and try to set the pace of the game yourself. The nice thing about playing 2-base P against 2-base Z is that you can afford to be aggressive without fear of falling behind in economy.
Alternatively, if you're like me and you just think void templar is way more fun, you could try to work out the build that I theorycrafted in that comment. Get a void, attack with 5 +1 zealots but pull back if there's spines, scout with a phoenix, rush out storm, and see what happens. I don't see any reason that it should be unworkable. Let us know how it works out.
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On January 13 2012 07:50 kcdc wrote: I can't watch the Shattered game again at the moment, but in general, if I see a delayed extractor or that Z isn't continuing to mine gas past 100, I go for this build even if I don't scout a third. This might have been what happened in the Shattered game.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good all-purpose build against 2-base Z. Builds that are good against 2-base hydra don't tend to be very good against 2-base muta and vice versa, so I'd recommend that you either pick a strong timing attack (maybe blink with +2 weapons) that will allow you to set the pace of the game, or work out a vanilla opening that leaves your options open until you scout what Z is doing. For example, after your FFE, you could get a quick robo, 4 or 5 gates, and a twilight council. When your obs gets to his base, you then have the infrastructure to get blink if muta or colossi if hydra or infestor.
For a plat player, your best bet might just be to pick a strong timing attack, and try to set the pace of the game yourself. The nice thing about playing 2-base P against 2-base Z is that you can afford to be aggressive without fear of falling behind in economy.
Alternatively, if you're like me and you just think void templar is way more fun, you could try to work out the build that I theorycrafted in that comment. Get a void, attack with 5 +1 zealots but pull back if there's spines, scout with a phoenix, rush out storm, and see what happens. I don't see any reason that it should be unworkable. Let us know how it works out.
Yes totally agree that void templar sounds way more fun...theres something about storming and seeing those little zerg explode that is so satisfying I will certainly try it out to adapt to 2-base play, getting a faster phoenix after the 1st void, then adapting. Let you know!
On your first paragraph, by "delayed extractor", what do you mean?
As for other good all-purpose builds against 2-base Z, I was thinking of swapping the early stargate in your OP for an early robo. If the robo is down at 6:30min, then I could scout their base by 8:30min which should be plenty of time to react to most 2-base play which I believe is around 9-10mins mark. Aiming for something like Alej's "Heroic FFE" where you end up with 4Gates, 1 Robo, 1 TC at about 9mins, only in his build he goes for earlier gates whereas I prefer the early robo for faster tech and obs scouting. What do you think?
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This build works great! =)
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Hello kdcd, this build is amazing and i'm using it quite a bit ( it happens to make a lot of people rage for some reason). My question is that with this build i'm finding it hard to keep count of zergs bases with this buid, i try to make warprisms and observers to scout for them but, as the robo is so busy, it seems that i scout them kind of late. I tried builiding a phoenix but again it doesn't feel just quite right. How do you scout for hidden bases and tech switches with this build? (i know the deathball basically destroys everything, but some witches may proof hard to stop in beetwen transition to carrier/mothership).
Thank you very much !
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goddamnit I hate deathballs...
meh roach hydra is total shit against a normal build already, so I won't be using it either way.
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On January 15 2012 06:21 SeriouR wrote: Hello kdcd, this build is amazing and i'm using it quite a bit ( it happens to make a lot of people rage for some reason). My question is that with this build i'm finding it hard to keep count of zergs bases with this buid, i try to make warprisms and observers to scout for them but, as the robo is so busy, it seems that i scout them kind of late. I tried builiding a phoenix but again it doesn't feel just quite right. How do you scout for hidden bases and tech switches with this build? (i know the deathball basically destroys everything, but some witches may proof hard to stop in beetwen transition to carrier/mothership).
Thank you very much !
just keep the first phoenix that you build for scouting the zerg's tech alive (which you build after ~2 void rays). that shouldn't be too hard. then you don't have to build a phoenix just for scouting expos, but still have one for that purpose
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On January 13 2012 01:28 soapyy. wrote: Is it just me or can this be very weak if someone goes for an early roach push? It's just you. This build gets the earliest possible stargate transitioning from a ffe. Stargate openers in pvz are extremely strong against roach pressure as all you do is chrono out two voidrays and win. You don't really have to even invest in cannons because roaches cannot shoot up.
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United States8476 Posts
What do you do versus ling/baneling/corruptor with/without drops and eventually ling/baneling/ultra? In my experience, you need both colossi and templar to deal with this composition.
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Ling/baneling should lose pretty hard to zealots with storm support, so I'm not sure what's giving you trouble. Dealing with corruptors is just about having enough voids and supporting them with storms. In my experience, voids+storm handles corruptors quite efficiently, so you should only lose air superiority if you've fallen well behind in macro.
Maybe you're finding it difficult to storm both the banelings and the corruptors? Do you have a replay in mind?
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On January 25 2012 01:17 kcdc wrote: Ling/baneling should lose pretty hard to zealots with storm support, so I'm not sure what's giving you trouble. Dealing with corruptors is just about having enough voids and supporting them with storms. In my experience, voids+storm handles corruptors quite efficiently, so you should only lose air superiority if you've fallen well behind in macro.
Maybe you're finding it difficult to storm both the banelings and the corruptors? Do you have a replay in mind?
He's asking about baneling drops if I'm not mistaken.
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Against baneling drops, just try to spread your zealots as much as you can (if you have charge, they spread a good amount on their own) and launch your storms and merge to templar to archons before they die. Ling/baneling just isn't very good against upgraded zealots, and it's awful against storms (tho overlords are good vs storms), so if you're losing to ling/baneling, you're probably too far behind in economy. You might try getting faster +2 weapons and charge with more emphasis on zealots, but it seems like it would be pretty game-specific. Z usually can't get his 3-base economy working without roaches against this build.
Regarding ultras, you want zealots, immortals and archons to beat ultras which is exactly the composition that this build produces, so again, ultras should only give you trouble if you're way behind. Building ultras against this build seems like a flat-out bad decision for Z. Ultras are used in ZvP because they're good against stalkers, colossi and sentries, of which this build produces none.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:17 kcdc wrote: Ling/baneling should lose pretty hard to zealots with storm support, so I'm not sure what's giving you trouble. Dealing with corruptors is just about having enough voids and supporting them with storms. In my experience, voids+storm handles corruptors quite efficiently, so you should only lose air superiority if you've fallen well behind in macro.
Maybe you're finding it difficult to storm both the banelings and the corruptors? Do you have a replay in mind? No, just curious =P. I do a similar style but I transition to colossi after versus ling baneling and don't make as many voidrays. Do you have a replay of this style versus ling/bane?
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I don't have one saved, and I've only played against it once or twice. It's pretty rare that Z goes ling/bling against this--if they're able to defend their third without roaches (which is quite a challenge on most maps), they almost always burn their gas on mutas instead of banelings and drop tech. Mutas seem like a better choice IMO.
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Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20.
From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts?
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On January 26 2012 08:34 Eifersuchtig wrote: Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20.
From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts? Could you link a replay? My MMR isn't as high as yours, but Goswer did this to me at one point and I just reverse allind him to win. Granted that's not the best response.
I think that you should consider getting ~5 or so phoenix to ward off muta harass while taking a quick third and teching to blink. Your stalker count should remain fairly healthy if you don't see him continually massing muta (in which case zealots and storm tech would be needed).
The other alternative would be to do something like after scouting the spire, drop a second stargate, chrono phoenix almost exclusively and attack him before he has the gas for roaches while securing his third.
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On January 26 2012 08:34 Eifersuchtig wrote: Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20.
From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts?
Can you post a replay? I've never seen 2-base mutas pop that fast and was curious about his BO.
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On January 26 2012 08:34 Eifersuchtig wrote: Hi, I was trying this against coLRyze today and he went blind two base muta on metalopolis. The initial push to kill 3rd was shut down easily by a flock of mutas that popped around 8:20.
From then on, storm wasn't fast enough, stalkers couldn't be produced in large enough numbers, even though a twilight council has already been built, blink would finish too slowly to allow for a decently timed 3rd, Phoenixes aren't viable against a muta flock already 12-15+, colossi/immortal pushes would be immediately shut down, 8gate would fail against the combination of muta+roach, Archons are ridiculously bad against well handled mutas - read magic boxing, splitting, etc. There doesn't seem to be a unit comp that can be reached that late after the muta flock begins being built that can counter this kind of play. To prevent my third going down he got two armies: One large muta flock harassing main, one large roach army preventing third. Even if I had gone blink stalkers originally this would pose a huge problem (discussed earlier). Also, I found that roaches can eat ~3 storms no problem and still rip through zealots, given that the void rays allowed for in this build were already easily decimated by mutas. As you can tell, my mmr is fairly high, and i've been wrestling with this issue (stalkerless pvz vs 2base muta) as well as how to deal with a blind 2 base muta in any way excluding a blind counter designed solely for that purpose. Thoughts?
The guide is written with the assumption that Z goes for a fast third, so it doesn't cover 2-base muta. Honestly, I suck against 2-base muta, so I might not be much help.
As a general rule, against 2-base, you either need to start double phoenix production before the spire completes so that you can keep his muta count low or you need to get blink stalkers and a relatively fast third. I don't think a zealot-void opening is optimal against 2-base Z, but if you didn't get a fast 2nd stargate and scout the spire early, you're going to need a lot of stalkers.
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Very interesting strategy. I played with storms and archons a lot lately, and I do know how good they are against hydras, so I assume pretty much it will work pretty well vs roach hydra plays if done properly.
I have some questions about mutas though: Do you recommand going blink stalkers with storm or phoenix if you see mutas, or both? Should I start massing carriers after I secure my bases from mutalisk harassess or try to be offensive with the army I already have? Since if he builds a wall of spine crawlers and get broodlords and infestors behind the mutas, I can be pretty screwed without carriers. Since I'll probably make stalkers against mutas, I have less gas for carriers and archons, maybe I should use a more mineral heavy solution to mutas like lots of cannons to afford getting archons and carriers?
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zerg counters this by getting like 20 spread corrupters in 2-3 groups
vortex has a 3 second slowdown time before it can cast. ive tested it a ton and if the mothership ever moves a slight amount it needs to stop and perform a slowdown before it can fire a vortex. never engage the mothership when its standing still, wait for it to move
20 corrupters can kill the mothership in about a second before it can fire the vortex. then run them away so they arent toasted by archons
archons splash against air is insane. air units bunch up and archons do like full splash to a few air units thats already like 130 damage per attack
the most powerful way to use the mothership in PvZ imo is to make the mothership practically the tosses only air unit, and the zerg is forced to make 20 corrupters to counter a single air unit, meaning his ground force is ahead of you by 32 supply since you needed 40 supply to counter a 8supply unit.
the OP talks about using mothership with carriers which i will talk about later, however most zergs are already complaining that the mothership itself is overpowered when the above tactic is used. I will explain now how to counter the above tactic first then i will get into the carrier stuff after
Assuming the toss is using the "mothership is only air unit" tactic, heres how you deal with that. after running away you need to buy time while some broodlords morph. pump out loads of roaches, a few ultralisks imo which help to buffer the attack while your broodlords morph because they are so tanky. also dont get more then 2-3 infestors because you need that gas for roaches/ultralisks since lings die so fast to storm (which is what makes the mothership only air unit strat so powerful, because the toss also has storm with his army and you need 40supply of corrupters to counter the 8food mothership)
pretty much, as zerg you need to be able to hold off a 132food toss ground army (that has no collossi, but has storm) with a 100food zerg ground army. it is very hard, however if you mass only pure roach and ultralisk with your 20corrupters its totally possible to defend long enough to buy time for your broodlords to morph. just defend as well as you can with roaches and ultralisks and remember to keep your 2-3 infestors AT YOUR BASE ready for defense, and after the mothership dies when the toss attacks you should be able to use your 2-3 infestors to get off 4-6 fungals which should destroy tons of stalkers combined with roaches/ultralisks
that was the explanation of how to beat the "mothership is the only air unit, and the toss has archons" strategy many toss are using against zerg lategame and most zergs are actually complaining about when it comes to PvZ.
the OP talks about a carrier strategy and honestly Id say the solution to that is get lots of corrupters and queens added to your army. Im sure its powerful, but as long as zerg can take out the mothership before a archon toilet then he should be able to win.
Pretty much, if a protoss GETS OFF one archon toilet, he should win the game. However, archon toilet is easy to counter using the 20 corrupter method, so against a good zerg who knows the counter the protoss should never be able to get off an archon toilet.
Zerg should never make more than 13 broodlords against toss, and if the toss gets a mothership the zerg better start killing units or drones in order to increase his corrupter count to 20. If the zerg has LESS THAN 20 corrupters, and his 13 broodlords get archon toileted, the zerg has only himself to blame. The zerg needs to kill off his roaches/workers/whatever and do whatever he can to increase his corrupter count to 20 in order to counter the mothership, and if the zerg doesnt do that then the mothership will kill all his broodlords instantly like it should
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Adonminus:
Against mutas, I recommend getting blink and playing standard anti-muta.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788
Basically, get a lot of warpgates, good upgrades, storm, and keep expanding with lots of cannons and plenty of observers to let you know where to position your stalkers. When Z switches to broodlords, it's time to for you to transition to void/carrier/mothership. Use your mobility advantage to force the broodlords to play defense if you need to buy time.
roymarthyup:
Yes, it's possible to kill a mothership, but the vulnerability of the mothership is precisely the reason that Protoss gets carriers since the range of the carrier allows P to deal with infestor+broodlord even without vortex. Honestly, it sounds like you've never played against void/carrier with storm, so I'm not sure why you typed up an explanation for how to beat it.
Mass corruptor with splitting and storm-dodging micro is Zerg's best response to void+carrier+archon+storm, but honestly, it's not that good. The other options (hydras, mutas) are just worse. Queens are a good addition to the corruptor force as they don't die to storms, they have decent AA damage, and transfuse is really good.
But if Protoss has time to max out with almost pure archon/carrier/void/HT, there's not much Z can do even if the mothership is dead. Corruptors are only okay against void/carrier, and with storms and archons adding a ton of splash damage, you'd be surprised how little corruptors actually accomplish before dying.
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[EDIT] nothing i am stupid
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Watched a couple of replays last night. I really enjoyed them. Thanks.
Something so cool about seeing a Protoss army composed purely of power units.
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I'd feel so naked if I didn't have any stalkers :/
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Couple more replays:
http://drop.sc/99207 http://drop.sc/99206
The replay vs hippopotamus is a good template for what the game can look like if P doesn't make big mistakes. Z never develops an econ lead, loses 3x as much in each fight, and ragequits after his 2nd maxed broodlord army dies for free.
The replay vs dakkon is a lot less clean. My zealot+void timing is a minute late because he went gas into pool and I was worried about a baneling bust, but his opening sacrificed econ, so even tho my timing was weaker, it still kept me on even economy with Z. After that, he got a late jump scouting my third and his attack failed miserably. From there, it should have been an easy win, but I took some silly map awareness damage to hydras and lings (pretty embarrassing when I had 10 storms) and then in the first late-game fight, I got my templars fungaled to death before I stormed, so I lost all my air to hydras. I still came back and won tho because that lategame comp is imba.
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Very nice build... very annoying.
Stuff like this getting more and more viable is a result of the (IMO unnecessary and unjustified) nerf to neural parasite.
The Mothership being the big problem oddly enough.
Theoretically, Zerg should just be able to charge toward a 5 base endgame once P takes his 3rd, but there is no way to realistically deal with the Mothership outside of Corruptors (which have been bad since day 1) and neural Parasite (which now requires Infestors to be basically in the middle of the Protoss army before it can be cast) so it doesn't really matter what kind of income you have when nothing can shoot the thing making the entire protoss army invisible and slamming down vortex when needed.
Good build.
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The mothership isn't a very important part of the composition. It'd work the same with just carrier/void/archon/storm, but the cloaking and vortex make it that much stronger. If the mothership were removed from the game, the strategy would still be strong.
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On January 29 2012 02:37 Jermstuddog wrote: Very nice build... very annoying.
Stuff like this getting more and more viable is a result of the (IMO unnecessary and unjustified) nerf to neural parasite.
The Mothership being the big problem oddly enough.
Theoretically, Zerg should just be able to charge toward a 5 base endgame once P takes his 3rd, but there is no way to realistically deal with the Mothership outside of Corruptors (which have been bad since day 1) and neural Parasite (which now requires Infestors to be basically in the middle of the Protoss army before it can be cast) so it doesn't really matter what kind of income you have when nothing can shoot the thing making the entire protoss army invisible and slamming down vortex when needed.
Good build. Mothership is underpowered, look at some dimaga replays.
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On January 29 2012 03:23 Lebzetu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 02:37 Jermstuddog wrote: Very nice build... very annoying.
Stuff like this getting more and more viable is a result of the (IMO unnecessary and unjustified) nerf to neural parasite.
The Mothership being the big problem oddly enough.
Theoretically, Zerg should just be able to charge toward a 5 base endgame once P takes his 3rd, but there is no way to realistically deal with the Mothership outside of Corruptors (which have been bad since day 1) and neural Parasite (which now requires Infestors to be basically in the middle of the Protoss army before it can be cast) so it doesn't really matter what kind of income you have when nothing can shoot the thing making the entire protoss army invisible and slamming down vortex when needed.
Good build. Mothership is underpowered, look at some dimaga replays.
Like the one where JYP archon toilets 3/4 dimaga's Broodlords and wins right there?
I'm not saying it's imba, just pointing out that I think the Mothership is actually a rather large part of the build.
As far as Carrier/Voidray/Archon/storm, I think you could BL/corruptor your way through that pretty easily in a late game scenario.
Vortex & archon toilet is the play-maker, don't try to underplay it.
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Jermstuddog, I don't know how much experience you have with this build, but I rarely wind up using an archon toilet with this build because Zerg players don't tend to clump their units, a moving mothership has a long casting delay, and I find other micro techniques more reliable. My micro priorities in max fights tend to go something like this:
-siege Zerg buildings from range with ~4 carriers to make Z bring his army to me -storm corruptors if they're ahead of the pack -FEEDBACK INFESTORS (most important in-battle micro) -blanket Z in storms -vortex -target fire void rays on corruptors, then broodlords -put archons in vortex if I have any left
Archon toilet is great when Z lets you vortex a ton of his army, but it's a win-harder move that's unreliable and unnecessary. I find that my army performs almost as well without the mothership.
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Very fun build, now my go-to in pvz when z does not go for 2 base play. One thing I stopped doing is building carriers though. They are too slow and take a huge amount of resources. Spending that money (and psi) in void rays seems to work out better for me.
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This build is definitely a lot more fun to play than conventional stalker+colossus+sentry. There are more ways to transition into it than ffe and +1zeal/vr timing. I think the Kiwikaki/Sage method is pretty damn effective. Basically, you can do either 4wg or ffe->2gate pressure then transition into 2 star phoenix with 1-2 voidrays. It works really well in this metagame since half of zergs automatically transition into mutas once they have 3 base secured and fended off your zealot pressure. Even if they don't you're usually in a pretty good spot and can buy at least enough time to get charge and a few immortals at worst, and charge, immortals, and storm at best.
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That deathball has been the holy grail of protoss for freaking ever. Thanks a ton for releasing a guide, and thanks to rsvp for developing the strat!
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On January 08 2012 05:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 17:00 Skyro wrote: So I assume you don't do this build on maps with wide open naturals like metal and XNC? I didn't see a replay of this on that map and I'm assuming because it's not really possible to defend your natural w/o sentries when you can't wall-off your ramp. If a map allows an FFE and a reasonably close third, you can do this build. A lot of people don't like FFE on Metal or XNC, so they probably won't be tempted by this build on those maps. I do think that in general, if you can FFE on a map, you don't need any sentries if you scout Zerg playing a standard double expand which you need to do on all maps before committing to this build. So while an open natural may be a determinant as to whether you want to FFE on a map, it shouldn't be a big factor as to whether you need to build sentries. You need sentries on just about any map if you think Z might all-in, and you don't need them on any map if you scout a third.
Around what timing should alarm bells be ringing if I am not seeing a fast third? I tried this build and due to my failure to recognize the timing, I lost to roach-ling pushes and baneling busts.
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Regarding scouting, if Z's hatch isn't down by 6 min, he's either trying to bust your FFE or he's going fast lair. Unfortunately, a 6 min scouting cue is too late to respond to busts, so you need some additional scouting tools in your belt.
-Make sure Z actually builds a hatchery. This is obvious, but people miss it a lot.
-You can usually rule out busts if Z hasn't taken gas before ~3:50.
-If early gas, double your probe back into Z's natural before his lings pop. If more than 100 gas is mined, it's probably a bust. If exactly 100 gas is mined, it's probably not a bust, but he can put drones back on, so you can't rule it out.
-Chronoboost out a zealot and if you're not sure what Z is doing, walk it as far as you can into Z's main. A zealot can kill 4 slow lings with stutter micro, but against fast gas, you need to send the zealot with a probe to help fight speedlings.
-If you still don't know what Z is doing, it's probably because Z went gas into pool, got quick zergling speed and made more than 4 lings. At this point, tho you can't scout it, the likelihood of a bust attempt is pretty high, and you need to build 2-3 more cannons and a sentry depending on the map. If no bust hits within the next minute or so, you should spread some units to make sure he can't nydus.
The worst-case scenario is that you made 3 extra cannons to defend against a bust that doesn't come, but Z cuts a decent amount of economy to get quick zergling speed and enough lings to deny your scouting, so you can afford to play a little more conservatively than you would normally.
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It says in your skeleton that you should defend your third with storm, voids, zealots, and immortals. Aren't the immortals a bit redundant? The voids should fend off any pure roach and a roach hydra composition is countered by the combo of voids and storms not to mention the zealot meat shield.
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I think spine crawlers to slow down the relatively few ground units (so that they don't just pass by and wreak havoc on your bases) and well spread, well upgraded corrupters in high numbers with some infestor support might be the best way to beat this (with good control of course)
But again, even if theoretically it is unbeatable in the endgame, I think the best bet would be a strong roach/hydra timing attack to exploit the vulnerability of P when he only has a couple storms, some zealot and a couple void rays. Or even better, defending the third and countering with a strong push right after that, while droning behind it, trading blows to keep P in check, preventing the 3rd or delaying it if possible.
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hey KCDC i would like to play my zerg against this strat of yours i will PM you tomorrow or sometimes later if you wanna play a game
sure i have a advantage because i know what your going to do but i think this endgame army is totally beatable if zerg goes with a 3 wave attack first 20corrupters snipe the mothership before vortex can be cast (which is possible as toss i know morthership cannot cast vortex for about 3seconds if it moves, enough time for corrupters to snipe) then the rest of zergs food is 3/3 roach/ultralisk with a 15 baneling flank to kill the toss ground forces then a huge remaxx on hydras/queens to kill whatever air toss has thanks to the 2infestors you keep in your base during all this which lets you unload 4fungals which just destroy clumped air units
my proposed counter requires much more resources, however i feel if zerg plays right he can secure a economy advantage and the mega archon/carrier/voidray/storm/mothership army by the protoss is his way of equalling the economy advantage of the zerg. i think its a pretty even game if the zerg fights that army properly
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Bertolt:
I don't think you can defend a roach-queen push without early, constant immortal production. Voids are good tactical units, but immortals provide more anti-roach DPS.
Bleak:
One of the best ways to beat this strategy is to deny the third with a strong timing. I think roach-queen is the strongest attack, but pure roaches to kill the ground and buildings can work too. How effective the attacks will be will depend on how well each side is playing and how the zealot-void pressure went.
roymarthyup:
That won't work. You might be able to trade 20 corruptors for a mothership, but losing a mothership isn't a big deal, and even accomplishing that trade will require you to catch P's army out of position. Also, roach ultra is crap. My ultimate lategame ground army is roughly 10 archons, 3 immortals and 6 templar with the rest of the supply in voids, carriers and mothership. Roach-ultra has no DPS to kill any of that stuff. You might trade your 200/200 for a couple archons and templar.
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On February 02 2012 06:19 kcdc wrote: Bertolt:
I don't think you can defend a roach-queen push without early, constant immortal production. Voids are good tactical units, but immortals provide more anti-roach DPS.
Bleak:
One of the best ways to beat this strategy is to deny the third with a strong timing. I think roach-queen is the strongest attack, but pure roaches to kill the ground and buildings can work too. How effective the attacks will be will depend on how well each side is playing and how the zealot-void pressure went.
roymarthyup:
That won't work. You might be able to trade 20 corruptors for a mothership, but losing a mothership isn't a big deal, and even accomplishing that trade will require you to catch P's army out of position. Also, roach ultra is crap. My ultimate lategame ground army is roughly 10 archons, 3 immortals and 6 templar with the rest of the supply in voids, carriers and mothership. Roach-ultra has no DPS to kill any of that stuff. You might trade your 200/200 for a couple archons and templar.
well would you like to play a game to see how things pan out?
most tosses on the ladder dont really know how to do this strat so only you and maybe a couple other people are actually viable practice partners
but i dont wanna practice against you alot or anything, just 1-2 games to experience the strategy
all im saying is i dont contest yet that its unbeatable. i know lings and banelings do nothing to archons, the only counter is broodlord/roach/ultra some combination of that. i suggest using no broodlords because you need the corrupters to counter the mothership, but after the mothership dies then you want broodlords. but you have to defend during the morphing time.
either way i would like to play a game against this style but if you dont wanna play oh well darnit hopefully a toss i run onto the ladder tries it.
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I just watched BabyK's stream and he got crushed by mass roaches as he tried to secure his third. Storms and zealots seem pretty useless vs roach burrow...
edit: actually I see this guide recommends getting voids not pheonix that could have been the problem.
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Im curious do any of the replays involve defence vs early muta, as in my experience muta > voids, is it neccessary to switch to pheonix in this situation?
I know HT's counter muta, but my fear is they won't be in time and are easily snipe etc.
Edit: Yeah ok I know read the whole guide before posting pointless statements, but one thing I still need to know, is the zealot void timing suicide vs muta or does it hit early enough?
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Do you have any replays of you vs infesters with this build? Everything in the OP is vs hydra or roach/ling in the mid game.
My practice partner consistantly destroys me @ my 3rd. Infestor/roach.
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I found the build to be dependent on the +1 zealot void push. If the Z defends it well - ie reasonable amounts of queens and roaches (not too few or too many), they can hit hard before 12m with those roaches + whatever else. Hydras, mutas, infestors... all do well. Zealots die to roaches, voids and immortals to the "other" unit.
Still like the build though, transitions well if you do damage with the initial push. The lack of early stalkers (and sentries, for the most part) lets you tech quite fast.
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Have you ever tried this with a gate opening? Currently messing around with 1-gate -> FE -> Stargate + gate x2 opening vs. gasless expands and currently trying to figure out a nice stargate follow-up. While obviously your econ is less overall you have a much higher intial gas intake and can afford an earlier stargates (and tech overall, i.e earlier templar). Of course the downside is you don't have the early forge so your zealots will not have +1.
I have noticed when I 1-gate FE a lot of zergs still often grab a relatively fast 3rd. It also appears to me a double stargate opening can be quite strong vs. any common 2-base opening such as mass roach (would need cannons for detection of course), muta (you have access to double star phoenix), and infestor (heavy zealot + void should be able to deal with the 2-base infestorling push with proper micro). Roach/hydra may be a problem, not sure.
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Have you ever tried taking your third at like the 8 min mark, covered by your pressure? It's working pretty well for me so far, but I need some more time to test it vs all the different styles.
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i saw white ra doing very similar build in shakuras crushing so badly all of zergs, he usually open with 2 SG , and early mothership for keep safe 3rd.
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On February 04 2012 02:52 citi.zen wrote: I found the build to be dependent on the +1 zealot void push. If the Z defends it well - ie reasonable amounts of queens and roaches (not too few or too many), they can hit hard before 12m with those roaches + whatever else. Hydras, mutas, infestors... all do well. Zealots die to roaches, voids and immortals to the "other" unit.
Still like the build though, transitions well if you do damage with the initial push. The lack of early stalkers (and sentries, for the most part) lets you tech quite fast.
This is a good point. If Z threads the needle getting just enough roaches and queens to prevent damage, but doesn't overproduce them, Z will be in a good economic position to try bust your third.
But it is very easy to at least freak Z out and force him to overproduce defense. A lot of Z's will delay the roach warren too much which forces them to throw away a bunch of lings against +1 zealots. And even if Z does have roaches in time, your voids will kill them more or less for free if they come off creep. And if Z's bases aren't connected by creep (on most maps, they won't be), you can switch between bases to force roaches and queens to move off creep where they're easy targets. Then there's also the trick where you freak Z out defending his third and sneak a pylon on the low ground outside of his main and use a void to provide vision to warp zealots into the main for some drone kills or a tech snipe.
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Hi kcdc, wondering if you could take a look at this replay and let me know what went wrong. http://drop.sc/126909
FFE, scout fast third, go ahead with the build. Zealot/stalker poke goes abnormally well so I know he has to make more defense ASAP instead of drones, plus I see a lot of morphing static defense at his third, so I back off without any offensive warpins.
Twilight council is a little late, so is the robotics.
Phoenix scouts roach warren researching something as well as morphing spire so I'm a little confused, but since quick third into roach/ling defense into mutas is so popular I guess that he's going mutas but still getting a roach upgrade for whatever reason. In response I continue with storm but get blink instead, and try to get my third ASAP so I can get it running and defended before the mutas start running wild. I usually try to do this when I scout 3-base muta transition, but it always seems like I don't have enough money to be teching/expanding at the same time and have enough units out to defend.
Ling runby is hilarious ("zzzz not again"), good distraction for him to wreck my tiny army.
I got supply blocked a few times, but it always seems like my army is very small when I try to tech templar/blink at the same time as getting a quick third in response to mutas. Is my macro THAT bad? Maybe delay templar tech for a while in favor of more stalkers/quicker expansion? I usually wouldn't get immortals against 3base muta but I saw his roach warren researching so I thought I should get a few immortals just in case, is that correct or no?
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On March 05 2012 15:45 whistle wrote:Hi kcdc, wondering if you could take a look at this replay and let me know what went wrong. http://drop.sc/126909FFE, scout fast third, go ahead with the build. Zealot/stalker poke goes abnormally well so I know he has to make more defense ASAP instead of drones, plus I see a lot of morphing static defense at his third, so I back off without any offensive warpins. Twilight council is a little late, so is the robotics. Phoenix scouts roach warren researching something as well as morphing spire so I'm a little confused, but since quick third into roach/ling defense into mutas is so popular I guess that he's going mutas but still getting a roach upgrade for whatever reason. In response I continue with storm but get blink instead, and try to get my third ASAP so I can get it running and defended before the mutas start running wild. I usually try to do this when I scout 3-base muta transition, but it always seems like I don't have enough money to be teching/expanding at the same time and have enough units out to defend. Ling runby is hilarious ("zzzz not again"), good distraction for him to wreck my tiny army. I got supply blocked a few times, but it always seems like my army is very small when I try to tech templar/blink at the same time as getting a quick third in response to mutas. Is my macro THAT bad? Maybe delay templar tech for a while in favor of more stalkers/quicker expansion? I usually wouldn't get immortals against 3base muta but I saw his roach warren researching so I thought I should get a few immortals just in case, is that correct or no?
Like you mentioned, the ling run-by gave him a chance to snipe your templar for free while you were distracted, and that sealed the game, but his army was probably too much bigger than yours anyway.
A couple strategic points--I think of this build as one of the natural transitions to zealot+void pressuring fast 3 base Z. The zealot+void pressure is, in my mind, the main reason to do the build. It's one of the few pressure options that you can 100% trade effectively or retreat, and the pressure investment flows efficiently into the midgame tech without any waste.
Your build order wasn't set up to get the most out of the opening pressure, and then you wound up skipping the pressure entirely. I think you'll find that you can slow Z's economy more and expand earlier yourself if you attack with 5 +1 zealots and a void ray at 8:20 or earlier. You'll want to get your gate before your 2nd pylon to hit the early side of the timing, but I find that it's easily worth cutting probes for a few seconds here and there to hit a timing that you know is going to slow Z's economy much more. You'll also significantly delay any muta transition. Remember that there's basically no downside to going for the pressure unless you're walking far onto creep. Voids can always get away, zealots can get away against roaches off creep and trade well if Z throws lings at them, and if Z sends roaches and lings off creep to kill the zealots, you kill the roaches with your voids.
Secondly, you're right that it's hard to get blink stalkers and enough army to defend your third. It's tough when you don't know whether Z is going roaches (against which you want zealots, voids and immortals) or mutas (against which you want stalkers, templar and phoenixes). I think the phoenix range patch helps tho. I'd suggest getting some cannons, a couple extra phoenixes, and skipping blink. If Z commits to mutas, warp in stalkers as needed to fend of damage while working your way toward phoenix range. 2 voids, a few phoenixes, a cannon and emergency stalker warp-ins should be able to hold off the initial wave of mutas, and by the time the muta ball gets scary, you can have phoenix range.
I think if you'd put a little more pressure on, Z would have had a smaller army, you'd have been able to expand earlier, and the muta switch would have been later. A later muta switch would have let you get a proper anti-ground army before worrying about anti-air. Also, cutting blink and favoring phoenixes over stalkers for muta defense feels a little more efficient after the last patch. Phoenixes+range is costly, but once you have it, you know you can handle mutas, and you can focus on anti-ground instead of walking a wire where you're not sure how much of what to get.
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How is this really any different that Huarggs pvz build? His seems better since his third is so easy to defend cause he gets the moship earlier than you do, you can do the same 4 gate +1 timing that ever toss does vs fast third while making a stargate into a fast mothership, or you could do the stargate first pressure into a few phoenix with a mothership to hold off any big attacks that happen early, then you get archons and just start making carriers, seems pretty straight forward to just do his build and end with your composition.
Thank god that Blizzard is removing like 1/3 of the units in that composition for hots.
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On March 05 2012 15:45 whistle wrote:Hi kcdc, wondering if you could take a look at this replay and let me know what went wrong. http://drop.sc/126909FFE, scout fast third, go ahead with the build. Zealot/stalker poke goes abnormally well so I know he has to make more defense ASAP instead of drones, plus I see a lot of morphing static defense at his third, so I back off without any offensive warpins. Twilight council is a little late, so is the robotics. Phoenix scouts roach warren researching something as well as morphing spire so I'm a little confused, but since quick third into roach/ling defense into mutas is so popular I guess that he's going mutas but still getting a roach upgrade for whatever reason. In response I continue with storm but get blink instead, and try to get my third ASAP so I can get it running and defended before the mutas start running wild. I usually try to do this when I scout 3-base muta transition, but it always seems like I don't have enough money to be teching/expanding at the same time and have enough units out to defend. Ling runby is hilarious ("zzzz not again"), good distraction for him to wreck my tiny army. I got supply blocked a few times, but it always seems like my army is very small when I try to tech templar/blink at the same time as getting a quick third in response to mutas. Is my macro THAT bad? Maybe delay templar tech for a while in favor of more stalkers/quicker expansion? I usually wouldn't get immortals against 3base muta but I saw his roach warren researching so I thought I should get a few immortals just in case, is that correct or no?
Day9 has a daily on defending mutas and Hero took his third at like 10 mins with templar tech finished around that time as well of a FFE, you dont need many stalkers 1 stalker for every 2 mutas is fine until muta numbers get in the 20s.
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woah, how did i let this thread slip by me? really glad it was bumped, will definetely give it a shot!
sigh, seems my attempt to resist going ffe in pvz has failed, no choice but to use it now T_T
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Corruptors with queens are the main way to deal with this effectively, along with roaches and zerglings (or even banelings or brood lords) to deal with zealots (and archon).
The argument about corruptors not being effective vs VRs doesn't matter, because no zerg unit aside from queens (and technically infestors, but that's only if the enemy is stupid and/or has bad control, so doesn't really count) are supply efficient vs VRs. That said, queens with corruptors should be even supply efficient. The only issue with it might be feedback on queens.
Overall this is just a protoss death ball though, so of course it will be very difficult to deal with. The fact that it's without stalkers or colossus doesn't necessarily make it any better, I'd say.
Essentially I would think zerg getting every unit except hydralisk (IMO crap unit) and ultralisk (only good vs stalker and colossus) should do reasonably well vs this composition of protoss getting every unit except colossus and stalker (with probably an emphasis on corruptors and queens). Due to skill imbalance(if it gets to the end game composition) zerg would certainly have to work harder for a win though.
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since my PvZ is my worst mu, i'll definitly try this
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The thing I love about this endgame comp is best illustrated when not using this comp. As stalker/sentry/Colossus, I feel torn when establishing a third base. If I sit out in the open, I'm worried about drop play, about flanks, about not being ready for direct engagements, and I feel like need to know what he's doing but I can't actually find out.
With this, I feel like I can sit in the open between my second and third bases (on maps where this is needed), keep an eye on him with zealot harassment/a scout phoenix or two, and since a lot of my units fly, I don't have to run around my own wall if he drops me or suddenly makes a few mutas.
Edit: In case this wasn't clear, it's because zealot/archon can be out in the open without worrying about being surrounded because they're good against lings, they don't need to rely on FF, and their backup (HTs/Voids) work well against hydras/roaches units trying to kite off creep, and Infestors trying to get a fungal on them can be feedbacked/fed back.
Now I just need to not suck so I can do all this reliably instead of losing HTs to lings, letting runbys through, and not scouting busts.
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What about 80drones, 30 corrupters, 120 banelings in 40overlords dropping on your army and remax on roaches w/e xD l
Ofc i dont have a build order to reach that, but banelings are pretty effective against HT when dropped from air cus HT cant rly run away from overlords.
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On March 08 2012 12:17 ruiyang wrote: What about 80drones, 30 corrupters, 120 banelings in 40overlords dropping on your army and remax on roaches w/e xD l
Ofc i dont have a build order to reach that, but banelings are pretty effective against HT when dropped from air cus HT cant rly run away from overlords.
Haha, maybe. Or maybe the whole army would get 1-shotted in an archon toilet. I think you're probably better off with 30 corruptors and the rest of the supply in infestor+BL, but pure corruptor+baneling would be pretty funny.
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On March 08 2012 12:17 ruiyang wrote: What about 80drones, 30 corrupters, 120 banelings in 40overlords dropping on your army and remax on roaches w/e xD l
Ofc i dont have a build order to reach that, but banelings are pretty effective against HT when dropped from air cus HT cant rly run away from overlords.
Not that I'd probably have the reactions necessary for this, but morphing to archons would always work - and also possible but more micro intensive is the concept of warp prisms (kind of like they're used in PvT for hiding from EMP).
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What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00
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On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00
What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses and holds charitable balls and donates the proceeds to Hamas? What happens then?
Holy shit, oh noes! Zerg OP 
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On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then?
Personally, I'm more worried about the BROODLORDINFESTOR, the 6 food broodlord that fungals all of the things, but I think this is a really good point. I think your build clearly wasn't designed well enough for the charitable ball rush - think a bit more before posting guides next time, k?
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On March 09 2012 02:48 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then? Personally, I'm more worried about the BROODLORDINFESTOR, the 6 food broodlord that fungals all of the things, but I think this is a really good point. I think your build clearly wasn't designed well enough for the charitable ball rush - think a bit more before posting guides next time, k?
Yeah, my bad. This guide also makes a critical error in that it produces pacifists--high templar--which only serves to embolden then enemy. Further, in allowing the Zerg to take a third and fourth base, the build also pursues a strategy of appeasement, and we all know how well that worked for Western Europe in the 1930's.
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I Have a question about scouting the zergs lair tech after the +1 zeal void timing. Normally i'll make the phoenix after my second void, after i've been pushed back or seen roaches to defend. Is it worth it to make a second phoenix if the first gets killed before seeing anything? Usually i'll run into a wall of spores or queens after the zerg's seen air. I could most likely micro better but I feel like that scout is one of the most important parts of the build, so I feel obligated to almost sac the phoenix searching for a spire.
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On March 09 2012 03:37 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:48 Treehead wrote:On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then? Personally, I'm more worried about the BROODLORDINFESTOR, the 6 food broodlord that fungals all of the things, but I think this is a really good point. I think your build clearly wasn't designed well enough for the charitable ball rush - think a bit more before posting guides next time, k? Yeah, my bad. This guide also makes a critical error in that it produces pacifists--high templar--which only serves to embolden then enemy. Further, in allowing the Zerg to take a third and fourth base, the build also pursues a strategy of appeasement, and we all know how well that worked for Western Europe in the 1930's.
Right! And just like historically, you can't build pacifists and not expect to get caught in the crossfire, like by an aerial strike - by mutalisks - on your civilian workers... except that your pacifists are actually good against mutali- bad example. I think the important part to note is that after the game, your third and fourth base need to declare war and stockpile forces until one of them has a meltdown... ok, ok, meltdown is a poor choise of words - I mean dissolution... like the carriers and zealots all decide, er.... well... maybe something is like the holocaust... alright, this metaphor thing sucks. I quit.
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On March 09 2012 03:50 Apollo89 wrote: I Have a question about scouting the zergs lair tech after the +1 zeal void timing. Normally i'll make the phoenix after my second void, after i've been pushed back or seen roaches to defend. Is it worth it to make a second phoenix if the first gets killed before seeing anything? Usually i'll run into a wall of spores or queens after the zerg's seen air. I could most likely micro better but I feel like that scout is one of the most important parts of the build, so I feel obligated to almost sac the phoenix searching for a spire.
Yeah, the phoenix scout can be pretty important, so you should try not to run the phoenix into a wall of spore crawlers. Spore crawlers are kinda bullshit because unlike cannons, they can move, but if you really work on your phoenix micro, you should be able to get away from the chasing spore crawlers.
Seriously tho, just rally your phoenix near Z's base and then micro it through Z's base to scout. If you screw up and it dies, building a 2nd phoenix would probably get you too late of a scout to do much with, but you can try it. Or you can make a guess and prepare for whatever you think is most likely. I don't know. Spore crawlers aren't fast and they take 6 seconds to burrow. Why did you lose your phoenix to spore crawlers?
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Im not losing the phoenix to just one spore. There is usuallu 2 spores by his main with 2 queens so ive got to tank them a bit to search for the spire.
in going over the replay i had in mind it seems like the guy was just aweful and didnt start any tech for like 2min after lair. So i was flying the phoenix between bases hunting ghosts
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Just wanted to say thanks for posting this. Been using this all the time recently, and it makes zerg players FURIOUS. Haha :D
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any new replays from this build? the old ones are broken cause of patch.
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Carriers are really good against the "zerg deathball" of infestors and broodlords. However I'm not sure you will have enough units in time to stop the 3 base roach pressures zerg use nowadays. Perhaps an early stargate pressure but using those 4 gates to warp units defensively and get a slightly earlier 3rd.
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On March 23 2012 14:17 Adonminus wrote: Carriers are really good against the "zerg deathball" of infestors and broodlords. However I'm not sure you will have enough units in time to stop the 3 base roach pressures zerg use nowadays. Perhaps an early stargate pressure but using those 4 gates to warp units defensively and get a slightly earlier 3rd.
This build was being worked on before 3 base roach pressure (from a super early third) became common. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894.
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thats the same guy, silly
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Yeah, the metagame has shifted in the last 3+ months, and I don't think this build is well-suited to how Z's are playing right now. It can still work, but there are more stable ways to take a third base and hit carrier/archon/HT.
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On March 27 2012 03:43 kcdc wrote: Yeah, the metagame has shifted in the last 3+ months, and I don't think this build is well-suited to how Z's are playing right now. It can still work, but there are more stable ways to take a third base and hit carrier/archon/HT.
When I saw this bumped and re-read the "phase 1" part of the build, I thought, "I'll have way more than 45 drones safely by 8:00". Then i make roach and if you expanded, you die.
Could still work depending on the map, but 3base roach aggression is pretty strong atm. Probably a great entombed valley build, especially with the nearby rock for the void ray to abuse if you're lucky.
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Eh, if you do the zealot-void harass really well, you can still punish Z's for going over 50 drones. They need some roaches and lings, early creep spread and an extra queen or 2. The pressure does limit Z's economy even if Z plays perfectly--it just doesn't limit Z's economy to allow P to tech all 3 tech paths at once with an 11 minute third.
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Why not just go stalker/Collosus/Voidray. The unbeatable composition. Until they have the brood death ball of course. just kill them before that though =P
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As you mentioned it seems a bit fragile now. How about starting a thread on the best ways to get to a late game of carrier/archon/templar and working on shield and air upgrades.
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 27 2012 07:48 -Switch- wrote: Why not just go stalker/Collosus/Voidray. The unbeatable composition. Until they have the brood death ball of course. just kill them before that though =P
Because since the infestor buff void rays actually suck to fight almost anything straight up in pvz.
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why not skip storm tech till you have a 3rd up, it semms you went every tech path you wanted before the 3rd and 4th, this way you can pump more immortals and be safer to roaches
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On March 27 2012 03:43 kcdc wrote: Yeah, the metagame has shifted in the last 3+ months, and I don't think this build is well-suited to how Z's are playing right now. It can still work, but there are more stable ways to take a third base and hit carrier/archon/HT.
Do you have any suggestions on this for the current metagame?
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On March 27 2012 08:37 Startyr wrote: As you mentioned it seems a bit fragile now. How about starting a thread on the best ways to get to a late game of carrier/archon/templar and working on shield and air upgrades.
On May 02 2012 07:13 WolfBro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:43 kcdc wrote: Yeah, the metagame has shifted in the last 3+ months, and I don't think this build is well-suited to how Z's are playing right now. It can still work, but there are more stable ways to take a third base and hit carrier/archon/HT. Do you have any suggestions on this for the current metagame?
check out my thread, it advocates a rush to mothership and just dumping all of your 2 base gas into void rays, and all your minerals into cannons, this allows you to secure the third and get air upgrades rolling. After the third is secure you can do a lot of different things but normally I just add 2 more SG and a second core.
After 4 base i normally add lots of tech, but doing it on 3 base is probably fine.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
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Why was this bumped? The metagame these days makes this guide actually kinda obsolete and misleading.
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