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I know you say in the OP that this build should only be used if zerg is opening with an early third, but can it be used versus 2-base play??
Watching the replays, you generally put down your stargate at 6mins, so does that imply that you must confirm they are not playing 2-base before this timing? If so, how??
I wanted to explore the idea of using that void to take an early third, but sometimes I dont know for sure if they are doing 2-base play before the 6min mark (which I am assuming is the time u commit to such a build since thats when you put the stargate down).
So my questions are, if you open 6min stargate, 3gates as you have in the OP, how do you react to:
1) Roach/ling all-in at 7:15mins
2) 2-base roach/hydra
3) 2-base muta at 10mins???
Would really like to hear your opinion on if this is possible! 
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Italy12248 Posts
On January 12 2012 18:21 bankai wrote:I know you say in the OP that this build should only be used if zerg is opening with an early third, but can it be used versus 2-base play?? Watching the replays, you generally put down your stargate at 6mins, so does that imply that you must confirm they are not playing 2-base before this timing? If so, how?? I wanted to explore the idea of using that void to take an early third, but sometimes I dont know for sure if they are doing 2-base play before the 6min mark (which I am assuming is the time u commit to such a build since thats when you put the stargate down). So my questions are, if you open 6min stargate, 3gates as you have in the OP, how do you react to: 1) Roach/ling all-in at 7:15mins 2) 2-base roach/hydra 3) 2-base muta at 10mins??? Would really like to hear your opinion on if this is possible!
You should see his third (reaction to your ffe) going down with a scouting probe, or with your first zealot(s) when you move out. If you don't see one you can assume 2base play and abandon the build.
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Z's third should be down before 6 min, and if you're able to check the gas geysers at 4:30, that's another big tell as to whether Z is playing macro or tech.
The timings for this build are all screwed up against a 2-base Z. I'm not saying that the general strategy can't work against 2-base Z, but you'd need to adjust it pretty significantly.
Considerations vs 2-base Z:
-Z can defend with spines, and there will be plenty of creep for queen mobility, so the zealot void timing should be much weaker
-Lair tech is online much faster, and Z doesn't need to dump gas on roaches, which means fast mutas, hydras and infestors are possible
rsvp has said that he doesn't do this strategy against 2-base Z because 2-base hydra timings are too difficult to defend, but my version of the build gets storm about 2 minutes faster than his. If you rush out storm by 11 min, you should be okay against 2-base hydra, particularly on large maps.
The problem with rushing out storm, however, is that you won't have AA in time for 2-base muta, so you need to scout faster. You'd probably want to skip the void timing entirely, make just 1 void for safety and then a phoenix to scout. If hydra, keep rushing out storm, and if spire, add a 2nd stargate or get blink stalkers.
Against 2-base infestor, you're probably okay doing the build as it's set out in the OP, but the zealot void timing should be pretty useless unless Z is excessively greedy.
I really don't know the timings against 2-base Z tho. If you want to force the strategy to work against 2-base Z, you can try, but it's definitely not anywhere close to optimized against fast lair strategies.
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Is it just me or can this be very weak if someone goes for an early roach push?
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I must say, as much as I'd love to bash this build for its countless weakness I'll refrain since you displayed it very well. Nicely written and well thought out too. I like it!
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kcdc, what do you think about double stargate aggression after the void ray +1 zealot timing instead of rushing for storm? A decent number of phoenix can cut down early hydra roach pushes better than void rays imo, and it shuts down muta play for a long time. I'm having a little difficulty at digesting how gas heavy this build is, it just doesn't seem possible that zergs let you get away with this, if they keep making small counter attacks and trading efficiently.
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I first witnessed this build on rsvp's stream (what a fantastic player and streamer btw!) and I was really impressed. My first impression was that this looked a bit gimmicky and probably wouldn't work a lot, but after watching it more, and reading this guide, I see that it is really solid. And such a refreshing and fun way to play PvZ!!
Thanks rsvp and kcdc <3
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I am convinced that this build is making me a better player in general, and giving me a deeper understanding of the PvZ matchup specifically. Because the timings are so thin, scouting and reacting correctly is much more important than with many stalker/collo based builds. The increased multitask necessary to execute a stargate-heavy build is also mechanically demanding. Every loss I take provides me with a replay where I can point to specific errors on my part that lost me the game, which is a fantastic learning tool.
Even if the metagame shifts against this build, I will try to stick with it for a while simply to get better.
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On January 13 2012 06:37 chestnutcc wrote:
kcdc, what do you think about double stargate aggression after the void ray +1 zealot timing instead of rushing for storm? A decent number of phoenix can cut down early hydra roach pushes better than void rays imo, and it shuts down muta play for a long time. I'm having a little difficulty at digesting how gas heavy this build is, it just doesn't seem possible that zergs let you get away with this, if they keep making small counter attacks and trading efficiently.
rsvp does exactly that, although he keeps making mostly voids with only a couple phoenix. I think he makes the phoenix primarily for scouting and to be prepared for mutas, but he'll also work in some queen lifts if there's an opening.
I personally prefer getting storm quickly because you really can't defend until you have it, but rsvp makes it work by distracting the Z with his harass, pinning Z in a defensive position to buy time for the later storm.
Both styles can work--his is a little more offensive while mine is a little more defensive--but I personally prefer the quicker storm because it seems to leave Z with no timing window to break my defense.
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On January 13 2012 00:34 kcdc wrote:
Z's third should be down before 6 min, and if you're able to check the gas geysers at 4:30, that's another big tell as to whether Z is playing macro or tech.
The timings for this build are all screwed up against a 2-base Z. I'm not saying that the general strategy can't work against 2-base Z, but you'd need to adjust it pretty significantly.
Considerations vs 2-base Z:
-Z can defend with spines, and there will be plenty of creep for queen mobility, so the zealot void timing should be much weaker
-Lair tech is online much faster, and Z doesn't need to dump gas on roaches, which means fast mutas, hydras and infestors are possible
rsvp has said that he doesn't do this strategy against 2-base Z because 2-base hydra timings are too difficult to defend, but my version of the build gets storm about 2 minutes faster than his. If you rush out storm by 11 min, you should be okay against 2-base hydra, particularly on large maps.
The problem with rushing out storm, however, is that you won't have AA in time for 2-base muta, so you need to scout faster. You'd probably want to skip the void timing entirely, make just 1 void for safety and then a phoenix to scout. If hydra, keep rushing out storm, and if spire, add a 2nd stargate or get blink stalkers.
Against 2-base infestor, you're probably okay doing the build as it's set out in the OP, but the zealot void timing should be pretty useless unless Z is excessively greedy.
I really don't know the timings against 2-base Z tho. If you want to force the strategy to work against 2-base Z, you can try, but it's definitely not anywhere close to optimized against fast lair strategies.
Wow, thanks for such an in-depth answer!
So if I can confirm theres no third before 6min and check gas mined (below 2400 after 4:30min) then that means most likely 2-base play?
I noticed in your replay on Shattered Temple, the zerg went 2-base (plus an in-base hatch at his natural) and you still went for the zealot/void push...is there a reason why you still followed through on this build even though it was 2-base play? Because of long distances?
KCDC - just interested to know, what type of build would you suggest a plat player goes with if I confirm no third at 6mins? Perhaps throw down a robo instead of the stargate (at say 6-6:30min), then 4xGates (at 7:15min)?
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I can't watch the Shattered game again at the moment, but in general, if I see a delayed extractor or that Z isn't continuing to mine gas past 100, I go for this build even if I don't scout a third. This might have been what happened in the Shattered game.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good all-purpose build against 2-base Z. Builds that are good against 2-base hydra don't tend to be very good against 2-base muta and vice versa, so I'd recommend that you either pick a strong timing attack (maybe blink with +2 weapons) that will allow you to set the pace of the game, or work out a vanilla opening that leaves your options open until you scout what Z is doing. For example, after your FFE, you could get a quick robo, 4 or 5 gates, and a twilight council. When your obs gets to his base, you then have the infrastructure to get blink if muta or colossi if hydra or infestor.
For a plat player, your best bet might just be to pick a strong timing attack, and try to set the pace of the game yourself. The nice thing about playing 2-base P against 2-base Z is that you can afford to be aggressive without fear of falling behind in economy.
Alternatively, if you're like me and you just think void templar is way more fun, you could try to work out the build that I theorycrafted in that comment. Get a void, attack with 5 +1 zealots but pull back if there's spines, scout with a phoenix, rush out storm, and see what happens. I don't see any reason that it should be unworkable. Let us know how it works out.
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On January 13 2012 07:50 kcdc wrote:
I can't watch the Shattered game again at the moment, but in general, if I see a delayed extractor or that Z isn't continuing to mine gas past 100, I go for this build even if I don't scout a third. This might have been what happened in the Shattered game.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good all-purpose build against 2-base Z. Builds that are good against 2-base hydra don't tend to be very good against 2-base muta and vice versa, so I'd recommend that you either pick a strong timing attack (maybe blink with +2 weapons) that will allow you to set the pace of the game, or work out a vanilla opening that leaves your options open until you scout what Z is doing. For example, after your FFE, you could get a quick robo, 4 or 5 gates, and a twilight council. When your obs gets to his base, you then have the infrastructure to get blink if muta or colossi if hydra or infestor.
For a plat player, your best bet might just be to pick a strong timing attack, and try to set the pace of the game yourself. The nice thing about playing 2-base P against 2-base Z is that you can afford to be aggressive without fear of falling behind in economy.
Alternatively, if you're like me and you just think void templar is way more fun, you could try to work out the build that I theorycrafted in that comment. Get a void, attack with 5 +1 zealots but pull back if there's spines, scout with a phoenix, rush out storm, and see what happens. I don't see any reason that it should be unworkable. Let us know how it works out.
Yes totally agree that void templar sounds way more fun...theres something about storming and seeing those little zerg explode that is so satisfying  I will certainly try it out to adapt to 2-base play, getting a faster phoenix after the 1st void, then adapting. Let you know!
On your first paragraph, by "delayed extractor", what do you mean?
As for other good all-purpose builds against 2-base Z, I was thinking of swapping the early stargate in your OP for an early robo. If the robo is down at 6:30min, then I could scout their base by 8:30min which should be plenty of time to react to most 2-base play which I believe is around 9-10mins mark. Aiming for something like Alej's "Heroic FFE" where you end up with 4Gates, 1 Robo, 1 TC at about 9mins, only in his build he goes for earlier gates whereas I prefer the early robo for faster tech and obs scouting. What do you think?
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This build works great! =)
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Hello kdcd, this build is amazing and i'm using it quite a bit ( it happens to make a lot of people rage for some reason). My question is that with this build i'm finding it hard to keep count of zergs bases with this buid, i try to make warprisms and observers to scout for them but, as the robo is so busy, it seems that i scout them kind of late. I tried builiding a phoenix but again it doesn't feel just quite right. How do you scout for hidden bases and tech switches with this build? (i know the deathball basically destroys everything, but some witches may proof hard to stop in beetwen transition to carrier/mothership).
Thank you very much !
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goddamnit I hate deathballs...
meh roach hydra is total shit against a normal build already, so I won't be using it either way.
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On January 15 2012 06:21 SeriouR wrote:
Hello kdcd, this build is amazing and i'm using it quite a bit ( it happens to make a lot of people rage for some reason). My question is that with this build i'm finding it hard to keep count of zergs bases with this buid, i try to make warprisms and observers to scout for them but, as the robo is so busy, it seems that i scout them kind of late. I tried builiding a phoenix but again it doesn't feel just quite right. How do you scout for hidden bases and tech switches with this build? (i know the deathball basically destroys everything, but some witches may proof hard to stop in beetwen transition to carrier/mothership).
Thank you very much !
just keep the first phoenix that you build for scouting the zerg's tech alive (which you build after ~2 void rays).
that shouldn't be too hard.
then you don't have to build a phoenix just for scouting expos, but still have one for that purpose
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On January 13 2012 01:28 soapyy. wrote:
Is it just me or can this be very weak if someone goes for an early roach push?
It's just you. This build gets the earliest possible stargate transitioning from a ffe. Stargate openers in pvz are extremely strong against roach pressure as all you do is chrono out two voidrays and win. You don't really have to even invest in cannons because roaches cannot shoot up.
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United States8477 Posts
What do you do versus ling/baneling/corruptor with/without drops and eventually ling/baneling/ultra? In my experience, you need both colossi and templar to deal with this composition.
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Ling/baneling should lose pretty hard to zealots with storm support, so I'm not sure what's giving you trouble. Dealing with corruptors is just about having enough voids and supporting them with storms. In my experience, voids+storm handles corruptors quite efficiently, so you should only lose air superiority if you've fallen well behind in macro.
Maybe you're finding it difficult to storm both the banelings and the corruptors? Do you have a replay in mind?
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On January 25 2012 01:17 kcdc wrote:
Ling/baneling should lose pretty hard to zealots with storm support, so I'm not sure what's giving you trouble. Dealing with corruptors is just about having enough voids and supporting them with storms. In my experience, voids+storm handles corruptors quite efficiently, so you should only lose air superiority if you've fallen well behind in macro.
Maybe you're finding it difficult to storm both the banelings and the corruptors? Do you have a replay in mind?
He's asking about baneling drops if I'm not mistaken.
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EPT
