EPT[G] Stalkerless PvZ - Page 10
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On January 08 2012 05:11 kcdc wrote: If a map allows an FFE and a reasonably close third, you can do this build. A lot of people don't like FFE on Metal or XNC, so they probably won't be tempted by this build on those maps. I do think that in general, if you can FFE on a map, you don't need any sentries if you scout Zerg playing a standard double expand which you need to do on all maps before committing to this build. So while an open natural may be a determinant as to whether you want to FFE on a map, it shouldn't be a big factor as to whether you need to build sentries. You need sentries on just about any map if you think Z might all-in, and you don't need them on any map if you scout a third. Around what timing should alarm bells be ringing if I am not seeing a fast third? I tried this build and due to my failure to recognize the timing, I lost to roach-ling pushes and baneling busts. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
-Make sure Z actually builds a hatchery. This is obvious, but people miss it a lot. -You can usually rule out busts if Z hasn't taken gas before ~3:50. -If early gas, double your probe back into Z's natural before his lings pop. If more than 100 gas is mined, it's probably a bust. If exactly 100 gas is mined, it's probably not a bust, but he can put drones back on, so you can't rule it out. -Chronoboost out a zealot and if you're not sure what Z is doing, walk it as far as you can into Z's main. A zealot can kill 4 slow lings with stutter micro, but against fast gas, you need to send the zealot with a probe to help fight speedlings. -If you still don't know what Z is doing, it's probably because Z went gas into pool, got quick zergling speed and made more than 4 lings. At this point, tho you can't scout it, the likelihood of a bust attempt is pretty high, and you need to build 2-3 more cannons and a sentry depending on the map. If no bust hits within the next minute or so, you should spread some units to make sure he can't nydus. The worst-case scenario is that you made 3 extra cannons to defend against a bust that doesn't come, but Z cuts a decent amount of economy to get quick zergling speed and enough lings to deny your scouting, so you can afford to play a little more conservatively than you would normally. | ||
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Bertolt
United States75 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
But again, even if theoretically it is unbeatable in the endgame, I think the best bet would be a strong roach/hydra timing attack to exploit the vulnerability of P when he only has a couple storms, some zealot and a couple void rays. Or even better, defending the third and countering with a strong push right after that, while droning behind it, trading blows to keep P in check, preventing the 3rd or delaying it if possible. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
sure i have a advantage because i know what your going to do but i think this endgame army is totally beatable if zerg goes with a 3 wave attack first 20corrupters snipe the mothership before vortex can be cast (which is possible as toss i know morthership cannot cast vortex for about 3seconds if it moves, enough time for corrupters to snipe) then the rest of zergs food is 3/3 roach/ultralisk with a 15 baneling flank to kill the toss ground forces then a huge remaxx on hydras/queens to kill whatever air toss has thanks to the 2infestors you keep in your base during all this which lets you unload 4fungals which just destroy clumped air units my proposed counter requires much more resources, however i feel if zerg plays right he can secure a economy advantage and the mega archon/carrier/voidray/storm/mothership army by the protoss is his way of equalling the economy advantage of the zerg. i think its a pretty even game if the zerg fights that army properly | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
I don't think you can defend a roach-queen push without early, constant immortal production. Voids are good tactical units, but immortals provide more anti-roach DPS. Bleak: One of the best ways to beat this strategy is to deny the third with a strong timing. I think roach-queen is the strongest attack, but pure roaches to kill the ground and buildings can work too. How effective the attacks will be will depend on how well each side is playing and how the zealot-void pressure went. roymarthyup: That won't work. You might be able to trade 20 corruptors for a mothership, but losing a mothership isn't a big deal, and even accomplishing that trade will require you to catch P's army out of position. Also, roach ultra is crap. My ultimate lategame ground army is roughly 10 archons, 3 immortals and 6 templar with the rest of the supply in voids, carriers and mothership. Roach-ultra has no DPS to kill any of that stuff. You might trade your 200/200 for a couple archons and templar. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On February 02 2012 06:19 kcdc wrote: Bertolt: I don't think you can defend a roach-queen push without early, constant immortal production. Voids are good tactical units, but immortals provide more anti-roach DPS. Bleak: One of the best ways to beat this strategy is to deny the third with a strong timing. I think roach-queen is the strongest attack, but pure roaches to kill the ground and buildings can work too. How effective the attacks will be will depend on how well each side is playing and how the zealot-void pressure went. roymarthyup: That won't work. You might be able to trade 20 corruptors for a mothership, but losing a mothership isn't a big deal, and even accomplishing that trade will require you to catch P's army out of position. Also, roach ultra is crap. My ultimate lategame ground army is roughly 10 archons, 3 immortals and 6 templar with the rest of the supply in voids, carriers and mothership. Roach-ultra has no DPS to kill any of that stuff. You might trade your 200/200 for a couple archons and templar. well would you like to play a game to see how things pan out? most tosses on the ladder dont really know how to do this strat so only you and maybe a couple other people are actually viable practice partners but i dont wanna practice against you alot or anything, just 1-2 games to experience the strategy all im saying is i dont contest yet that its unbeatable. i know lings and banelings do nothing to archons, the only counter is broodlord/roach/ultra some combination of that. i suggest using no broodlords because you need the corrupters to counter the mothership, but after the mothership dies then you want broodlords. but you have to defend during the morphing time. either way i would like to play a game against this style but if you dont wanna play oh well darnit hopefully a toss i run onto the ladder tries it. | ||
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
edit: actually I see this guide recommends getting voids not pheonix that could have been the problem. | ||
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
I know HT's counter muta, but my fear is they won't be in time and are easily snipe etc. Edit: Yeah ok I know read the whole guide before posting pointless statements, but one thing I still need to know, is the zealot void timing suicide vs muta or does it hit early enough? | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
My practice partner consistantly destroys me @ my 3rd. Infestor/roach. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Still like the build though, transitions well if you do damage with the initial push. The lack of early stalkers (and sentries, for the most part) lets you tech quite fast. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
I have noticed when I 1-gate FE a lot of zergs still often grab a relatively fast 3rd. It also appears to me a double stargate opening can be quite strong vs. any common 2-base opening such as mass roach (would need cannons for detection of course), muta (you have access to double star phoenix), and infestor (heavy zealot + void should be able to deal with the 2-base infestorling push with proper micro). Roach/hydra may be a problem, not sure. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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RRDjhonn
34 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 04 2012 02:52 citi.zen wrote: I found the build to be dependent on the +1 zealot void push. If the Z defends it well - ie reasonable amounts of queens and roaches (not too few or too many), they can hit hard before 12m with those roaches + whatever else. Hydras, mutas, infestors... all do well. Zealots die to roaches, voids and immortals to the "other" unit. Still like the build though, transitions well if you do damage with the initial push. The lack of early stalkers (and sentries, for the most part) lets you tech quite fast. This is a good point. If Z threads the needle getting just enough roaches and queens to prevent damage, but doesn't overproduce them, Z will be in a good economic position to try bust your third. But it is very easy to at least freak Z out and force him to overproduce defense. A lot of Z's will delay the roach warren too much which forces them to throw away a bunch of lings against +1 zealots. And even if Z does have roaches in time, your voids will kill them more or less for free if they come off creep. And if Z's bases aren't connected by creep (on most maps, they won't be), you can switch between bases to force roaches and queens to move off creep where they're easy targets. Then there's also the trick where you freak Z out defending his third and sneak a pylon on the low ground outside of his main and use a void to provide vision to warp zealots into the main for some drone kills or a tech snipe. | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
FFE, scout fast third, go ahead with the build. Zealot/stalker poke goes abnormally well so I know he has to make more defense ASAP instead of drones, plus I see a lot of morphing static defense at his third, so I back off without any offensive warpins. Twilight council is a little late, so is the robotics. Phoenix scouts roach warren researching something as well as morphing spire so I'm a little confused, but since quick third into roach/ling defense into mutas is so popular I guess that he's going mutas but still getting a roach upgrade for whatever reason. In response I continue with storm but get blink instead, and try to get my third ASAP so I can get it running and defended before the mutas start running wild. I usually try to do this when I scout 3-base muta transition, but it always seems like I don't have enough money to be teching/expanding at the same time and have enough units out to defend. Ling runby is hilarious ("zzzz not again"), good distraction for him to wreck my tiny army. I got supply blocked a few times, but it always seems like my army is very small when I try to tech templar/blink at the same time as getting a quick third in response to mutas. Is my macro THAT bad? Maybe delay templar tech for a while in favor of more stalkers/quicker expansion? I usually wouldn't get immortals against 3base muta but I saw his roach warren researching so I thought I should get a few immortals just in case, is that correct or no? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 05 2012 15:45 whistle wrote: Hi kcdc, wondering if you could take a look at this replay and let me know what went wrong. http://drop.sc/126909 FFE, scout fast third, go ahead with the build. Zealot/stalker poke goes abnormally well so I know he has to make more defense ASAP instead of drones, plus I see a lot of morphing static defense at his third, so I back off without any offensive warpins. Twilight council is a little late, so is the robotics. Phoenix scouts roach warren researching something as well as morphing spire so I'm a little confused, but since quick third into roach/ling defense into mutas is so popular I guess that he's going mutas but still getting a roach upgrade for whatever reason. In response I continue with storm but get blink instead, and try to get my third ASAP so I can get it running and defended before the mutas start running wild. I usually try to do this when I scout 3-base muta transition, but it always seems like I don't have enough money to be teching/expanding at the same time and have enough units out to defend. Ling runby is hilarious ("zzzz not again"), good distraction for him to wreck my tiny army. I got supply blocked a few times, but it always seems like my army is very small when I try to tech templar/blink at the same time as getting a quick third in response to mutas. Is my macro THAT bad? Maybe delay templar tech for a while in favor of more stalkers/quicker expansion? I usually wouldn't get immortals against 3base muta but I saw his roach warren researching so I thought I should get a few immortals just in case, is that correct or no? Like you mentioned, the ling run-by gave him a chance to snipe your templar for free while you were distracted, and that sealed the game, but his army was probably too much bigger than yours anyway. A couple strategic points--I think of this build as one of the natural transitions to zealot+void pressuring fast 3 base Z. The zealot+void pressure is, in my mind, the main reason to do the build. It's one of the few pressure options that you can 100% trade effectively or retreat, and the pressure investment flows efficiently into the midgame tech without any waste. Your build order wasn't set up to get the most out of the opening pressure, and then you wound up skipping the pressure entirely. I think you'll find that you can slow Z's economy more and expand earlier yourself if you attack with 5 +1 zealots and a void ray at 8:20 or earlier. You'll want to get your gate before your 2nd pylon to hit the early side of the timing, but I find that it's easily worth cutting probes for a few seconds here and there to hit a timing that you know is going to slow Z's economy much more. You'll also significantly delay any muta transition. Remember that there's basically no downside to going for the pressure unless you're walking far onto creep. Voids can always get away, zealots can get away against roaches off creep and trade well if Z throws lings at them, and if Z sends roaches and lings off creep to kill the zealots, you kill the roaches with your voids. Secondly, you're right that it's hard to get blink stalkers and enough army to defend your third. It's tough when you don't know whether Z is going roaches (against which you want zealots, voids and immortals) or mutas (against which you want stalkers, templar and phoenixes). I think the phoenix range patch helps tho. I'd suggest getting some cannons, a couple extra phoenixes, and skipping blink. If Z commits to mutas, warp in stalkers as needed to fend of damage while working your way toward phoenix range. 2 voids, a few phoenixes, a cannon and emergency stalker warp-ins should be able to hold off the initial wave of mutas, and by the time the muta ball gets scary, you can have phoenix range. I think if you'd put a little more pressure on, Z would have had a smaller army, you'd have been able to expand earlier, and the muta switch would have been later. A later muta switch would have let you get a proper anti-ground army before worrying about anti-air. Also, cutting blink and favoring phoenixes over stalkers for muta defense feels a little more efficient after the last patch. Phoenixes+range is costly, but once you have it, you know you can handle mutas, and you can focus on anti-ground instead of walking a wire where you're not sure how much of what to get. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
Thank god that Blizzard is removing like 1/3 of the units in that composition for hots. | ||
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