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On March 05 2012 15:45 whistle wrote:Hi kcdc, wondering if you could take a look at this replay and let me know what went wrong. http://drop.sc/126909FFE, scout fast third, go ahead with the build. Zealot/stalker poke goes abnormally well so I know he has to make more defense ASAP instead of drones, plus I see a lot of morphing static defense at his third, so I back off without any offensive warpins. Twilight council is a little late, so is the robotics. Phoenix scouts roach warren researching something as well as morphing spire so I'm a little confused, but since quick third into roach/ling defense into mutas is so popular I guess that he's going mutas but still getting a roach upgrade for whatever reason. In response I continue with storm but get blink instead, and try to get my third ASAP so I can get it running and defended before the mutas start running wild. I usually try to do this when I scout 3-base muta transition, but it always seems like I don't have enough money to be teching/expanding at the same time and have enough units out to defend. Ling runby is hilarious ("zzzz not again"), good distraction for him to wreck my tiny army. I got supply blocked a few times, but it always seems like my army is very small when I try to tech templar/blink at the same time as getting a quick third in response to mutas. Is my macro THAT bad? Maybe delay templar tech for a while in favor of more stalkers/quicker expansion? I usually wouldn't get immortals against 3base muta but I saw his roach warren researching so I thought I should get a few immortals just in case, is that correct or no?
Day9 has a daily on defending mutas and Hero took his third at like 10 mins with templar tech finished around that time as well of a FFE, you dont need many stalkers 1 stalker for every 2 mutas is fine until muta numbers get in the 20s.
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woah, how did i let this thread slip by me? really glad it was bumped, will definetely give it a shot!
sigh, seems my attempt to resist going ffe in pvz has failed, no choice but to use it now T_T
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Corruptors with queens are the main way to deal with this effectively, along with roaches and zerglings (or even banelings or brood lords) to deal with zealots (and archon).
The argument about corruptors not being effective vs VRs doesn't matter, because no zerg unit aside from queens (and technically infestors, but that's only if the enemy is stupid and/or has bad control, so doesn't really count) are supply efficient vs VRs. That said, queens with corruptors should be even supply efficient. The only issue with it might be feedback on queens.
Overall this is just a protoss death ball though, so of course it will be very difficult to deal with. The fact that it's without stalkers or colossus doesn't necessarily make it any better, I'd say.
Essentially I would think zerg getting every unit except hydralisk (IMO crap unit) and ultralisk (only good vs stalker and colossus) should do reasonably well vs this composition of protoss getting every unit except colossus and stalker (with probably an emphasis on corruptors and queens). Due to skill imbalance(if it gets to the end game composition) zerg would certainly have to work harder for a win though.
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since my PvZ is my worst mu, i'll definitly try this
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The thing I love about this endgame comp is best illustrated when not using this comp. As stalker/sentry/Colossus, I feel torn when establishing a third base. If I sit out in the open, I'm worried about drop play, about flanks, about not being ready for direct engagements, and I feel like need to know what he's doing but I can't actually find out.
With this, I feel like I can sit in the open between my second and third bases (on maps where this is needed), keep an eye on him with zealot harassment/a scout phoenix or two, and since a lot of my units fly, I don't have to run around my own wall if he drops me or suddenly makes a few mutas.
Edit: In case this wasn't clear, it's because zealot/archon can be out in the open without worrying about being surrounded because they're good against lings, they don't need to rely on FF, and their backup (HTs/Voids) work well against hydras/roaches units trying to kite off creep, and Infestors trying to get a fungal on them can be feedbacked/fed back.
Now I just need to not suck so I can do all this reliably instead of losing HTs to lings, letting runbys through, and not scouting busts.
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What about 80drones, 30 corrupters, 120 banelings in 40overlords dropping on your army and remax on roaches w/e xD l
Ofc i dont have a build order to reach that, but banelings are pretty effective against HT when dropped from air cus HT cant rly run away from overlords.
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On March 08 2012 12:17 ruiyang wrote:
What about 80drones, 30 corrupters, 120 banelings in 40overlords dropping on your army and remax on roaches w/e xD l
Ofc i dont have a build order to reach that, but banelings are pretty effective against HT when dropped from air cus HT cant rly run away from overlords.
Haha, maybe. Or maybe the whole army would get 1-shotted in an archon toilet. I think you're probably better off with 30 corruptors and the rest of the supply in infestor+BL, but pure corruptor+baneling would be pretty funny.
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On March 08 2012 12:17 ruiyang wrote:
What about 80drones, 30 corrupters, 120 banelings in 40overlords dropping on your army and remax on roaches w/e xD l
Ofc i dont have a build order to reach that, but banelings are pretty effective against HT when dropped from air cus HT cant rly run away from overlords.
Not that I'd probably have the reactions necessary for this, but morphing to archons would always work - and also possible but more micro intensive is the concept of warp prisms (kind of like they're used in PvT for hiding from EMP).
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What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00
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On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00
What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then?
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses and holds charitable balls and donates the proceeds to Hamas? What happens then?
Holy shit, oh noes! Zerg OP 
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On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then?
Personally, I'm more worried about the BROODLORDINFESTOR, the 6 food broodlord that fungals all of the things, but I think this is a really good point. I think your build clearly wasn't designed well enough for the charitable ball rush - think a bit more before posting guides next time, k?
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On March 09 2012 02:48 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then? Personally, I'm more worried about the BROODLORDINFESTOR, the 6 food broodlord that fungals all of the things, but I think this is a really good point. I think your build clearly wasn't designed well enough for the charitable ball rush - think a bit more before posting guides next time, k?
Yeah, my bad. This guide also makes a critical error in that it produces pacifists--high templar--which only serves to embolden then enemy. Further, in allowing the Zerg to take a third and fourth base, the build also pursues a strategy of appeasement, and we all know how well that worked for Western Europe in the 1930's.
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I Have a question about scouting the zergs lair tech after the +1 zeal void timing. Normally i'll make the phoenix after my second void, after i've been pushed back or seen roaches to defend. Is it worth it to make a second phoenix if the first gets killed before seeing anything? Usually i'll run into a wall of spores or queens after the zerg's seen air. I could most likely micro better but I feel like that scout is one of the most important parts of the build, so I feel obligated to almost sac the phoenix searching for a spire.
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On March 09 2012 03:37 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:48 Treehead wrote:On March 09 2012 02:08 kcdc wrote:On March 09 2012 01:04 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
What happens with a huge bane drop around like 12-14 minutes and it kills most of your ground army, mass ling to kill third/roaches -- meanwhile making corruptor/infestor to deal with the air units left?
if zerg recognizes he can go to 5 base by like 15:00 What happens when Z makes the HYDRAROACH with the hydra parachute upgrade and infests all your nexuses to hold charitable balls with the proceeds donated to Hamas? What happens then? Personally, I'm more worried about the BROODLORDINFESTOR, the 6 food broodlord that fungals all of the things, but I think this is a really good point. I think your build clearly wasn't designed well enough for the charitable ball rush - think a bit more before posting guides next time, k? Yeah, my bad. This guide also makes a critical error in that it produces pacifists--high templar--which only serves to embolden then enemy. Further, in allowing the Zerg to take a third and fourth base, the build also pursues a strategy of appeasement, and we all know how well that worked for Western Europe in the 1930's.
Right! And just like historically, you can't build pacifists and not expect to get caught in the crossfire, like by an aerial strike - by mutalisks - on your civilian workers... except that your pacifists are actually good against mutali- bad example. I think the important part to note is that after the game, your third and fourth base need to declare war and stockpile forces until one of them has a meltdown... ok, ok, meltdown is a poor choise of words - I mean dissolution... like the carriers and zealots all decide, er.... well... maybe something is like the holocaust... alright, this metaphor thing sucks. I quit.
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On March 09 2012 03:50 Apollo89 wrote:
I Have a question about scouting the zergs lair tech after the +1 zeal void timing. Normally i'll make the phoenix after my second void, after i've been pushed back or seen roaches to defend. Is it worth it to make a second phoenix if the first gets killed before seeing anything? Usually i'll run into a wall of spores or queens after the zerg's seen air. I could most likely micro better but I feel like that scout is one of the most important parts of the build, so I feel obligated to almost sac the phoenix searching for a spire.
Yeah, the phoenix scout can be pretty important, so you should try not to run the phoenix into a wall of spore crawlers. Spore crawlers are kinda bullshit because unlike cannons, they can move, but if you really work on your phoenix micro, you should be able to get away from the chasing spore crawlers.
Seriously tho, just rally your phoenix near Z's base and then micro it through Z's base to scout. If you screw up and it dies, building a 2nd phoenix would probably get you too late of a scout to do much with, but you can try it. Or you can make a guess and prepare for whatever you think is most likely. I don't know. Spore crawlers aren't fast and they take 6 seconds to burrow. Why did you lose your phoenix to spore crawlers?
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Im not losing the phoenix to just one spore. There is usuallu 2 spores by his main with 2 queens so ive got to tank them a bit to search for the spire.
in going over the replay i had in mind it seems like the guy was just aweful and didnt start any tech for like 2min after lair. So i was flying the phoenix between bases hunting ghosts
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Just wanted to say thanks for posting this. Been using this all the time recently, and it makes zerg players FURIOUS. Haha :D
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any new replays from this build? the old ones are broken cause of patch.
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Carriers are really good against the "zerg deathball" of infestors and broodlords. However I'm not sure you will have enough units in time to stop the 3 base roach pressures zerg use nowadays. Perhaps an early stargate pressure but using those 4 gates to warp units defensively and get a slightly earlier 3rd.
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EPT
