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On January 07 2012 17:00 Skyro wrote:
So I assume you don't do this build on maps with wide open naturals like metal and XNC? I didn't see a replay of this on that map and I'm assuming because it's not really possible to defend your natural w/o sentries when you can't wall-off your ramp.
If a map allows an FFE and a reasonably close third, you can do this build. A lot of people don't like FFE on Metal or XNC, so they probably won't be tempted by this build on those maps.
I do think that in general, if you can FFE on a map, you don't need any sentries if you scout Zerg playing a standard double expand which you need to do on all maps before committing to this build. So while an open natural may be a determinant as to whether you want to FFE on a map, it shouldn't be a big factor as to whether you need to build sentries. You need sentries on just about any map if you think Z might all-in, and you don't need them on any map if you scout a third.
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i've seen builds that share a lot of the same concepts, namely - saving gas for the ability to reach two tech paths while getting a third and being able to survive, by not making stalkers. i usually go into ht/chargelot/immo/vr like your guide does, but i never thought of carriers as a viable late game transition.
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Ok I watched the rep of frist game on Shakuras.
Army you get there seems more like protoss version of Mech. Immortals, VR, Zealots, Templars are not what you would call mobile units...
I think this game plan wont work against more mobile compositions like infestor/ling muta/ling. Stalkers give you ability to blink and chase someone. Problem is in the midgame. Cannon dont cut the defence from Muta, and if you leave templar on each base you better watch it as hard as you can. Also that game you dont get sentries in midgame and against smart surround and fungal it would be gg..
I would love to if you would prove me wrong because stalker is 125/50 and i want more cost efficiency, but for now i dont see other way to play. IMO you have to combat speed (muta/lings) with speed (blink stalker)
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University of Utah vs UCLA set 4.
I used this build earlier today in my CSL match against UCLA. I made a ton of mistakes and the build didn't go exactly to recipe, but I recommend checking this out. I'll have the replay posted here later.
The other games from the match are in the most recent VODs on "freakon"'s stream. Some rather epic TvZ's occurred.
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Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you.
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Been playing around with when to get my 2nd stargate, and I think it's a good idea to get it after your third but before your fourth. Edited OP deleting the paragraph about the option of double robo (it's good against roach hydra, but immortals don't hit mutas which I think will become the norm against this build), and added this in its place:
After I feel that I have enough storms banked up that I'm not in any immediate danger (maybe around 100 or 120 supply), I like to add my 2nd stargate. You can sometimes hit a point of diminishing return where more storms, zealots, and even immortals won't do much for you, but more voids is almost always a good thing, and having a second stargate can help against a late batch of mutas. If you're set on zealots and templar and feel like you can bring the fight to Z, you can also make round of stalkers and push, but be very careful about engaging on creep. Zealots and storms are both MUCH better off creep, so expect your army to feel a lot weaker when it's used offensively.
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I had a game go to carriers for the first time today... and promptly lost them to a billion corruptors, but hey. That's the first time I've ever seriously made them, and it felt goooood.
Actually I have to say, I've never enjoyed PvZ as much as when I started doing this style. It's at the point where I all but punch the air when I roll a zerg, just because it's so fun to do... even when I lose... which happens a lot.
Mostly I find myself losing to big 2 base plays that I'm taking too long to scout. What's your standard series of manoeuvres to confirm the third, kcdc?
I'm finding that if he's dilligent with lings/OL scouting he can kill my hidden probe quite quickly, and if he makes even a couple of extra rounds of lings and parks them outside my base, I have trouble getting anything to the third until I'm starting the timing attack in earnest. I find this to be a particular issue on maps where there's a number of possible locations for the third, like Tal'darim.
And, on a related note, assuming you discover there's no third at around the time your first vray is coming out... what do you normally do? My gut reaction is to chrono a phoenix after vray and scout his tech, but I feel like I'd be in danger of losing my nat to roach-ling without a second vray if it turns out to be that particular all-in...
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On January 08 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote:
Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you.
All of my teammates were asking each other, "Is this real life?" I made a mistake at every single opportunity I had to make one...but the composition was so efficient against his pushes that it was irrelevant.
Here's the replay so that my shame might be your entertainment.
Replay.
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Nice guide, I've been doing some similar PvZ with stargate opening into zealot immortal archon/HT. It really is a jack of all trades composition and works very well.
Replay number 2, units lost resources = LOL
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On January 08 2012 15:35 Belisarius wrote:
I had a game go to carriers for the first time today... and promptly lost them to a billion corruptors, but hey. That's the first time I've ever seriously made them, and it felt goooood.
Actually I have to say, I've never enjoyed PvZ as much as when I started doing this style. It's at the point where I all but punch the air when I roll a zerg, just because it's so fun to do... even when I lose... which happens a lot.
Mostly I find myself losing to big 2 base plays that I'm taking too long to scout. What's your standard series of manoeuvres to confirm the third, kcdc?
I'm finding that if he's dilligent with lings/OL scouting he can kill my hidden probe quite quickly, and if he makes even a couple of extra rounds of lings and parks them outside my base, I have trouble getting anything to the third until I'm starting the timing attack in earnest. I find this to be a particular issue on maps where there's a number of possible locations for the third, like Tal'darim.
And, on a related note, assuming you discover there's no third at around the time your first vray is coming out... what do you normally do? My gut reaction is to chrono a phoenix after vray and scout his tech, but I feel like I'd be in danger of losing my nat to roach-ling without a second vray if it turns out to be that particular all-in...
Glad you're enjoying the build. It's a little unorthodox and it's constantly challenging with a high skill ceiling, so it's a lot of fun to play.
About scouting, it sounds like you might be setting out a little late. If you have a replay, I can try to figure out what you might improve, but what I do is:
(1) scout whether gas before hatch
(2) plant pylon before lings come down (14/14 lings arrive at 3:45ish, so plant pylon before 3:40), and place probe outside natural and to the side a little
(3) after lings clear pylon, I give them a few seconds to run out into the map, and I loop my probe back into Z's base to check gas again--try to skirt around the edge of the creep as this will keep your probe alive longer against the queen and any chasing lings
(4) if no extractor is built or the drones are taken off gas after 100 mined, Z is most likely dropping third. Sometimes you'll see the drone going down the ramp on his way to become a third hatch as your probe is coming up the ramp.
(5) except against speedling expand, you can send a second probe out into the map, perhaps with a zealot escort to confirm the location of the third since only speedling expand will have speed early enough to kill the scouting probe at this timing
I try not to do this opening against 2-base play because it tends to die pretty hard against roach-ling, bling-ling and hydra all-ins. I suppose if you took a calculated risk and guessed wrong, you'd probably want to make as many cannons as you need to stay safe, make a phoenix to scout, patrol a probe to deny nydus, and rush for storm (or colossi if you know it's not 2-base muta) because a hydra bust will kill you if you don't have AoE out in time.
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On January 08 2012 15:41 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote:
Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you. All of my teammates were asking each other, "Is this real life?" I made a mistake at every single opportunity I had to make one...but the composition was so efficient against his pushes that it was irrelevant. Here's the replay so that my shame might be your entertainment. Replay.
Out of curiosity, were you expected to win in that match? It seemed like played a lot cleaner (besides having no idea what to do against your build), although your mistakes were probably because you were using a newer build. The spectators and commentators seemed shocked that your strategy was working.
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On January 09 2012 00:59 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 15:41 Chemist391 wrote:On January 08 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote:
Hahahahaa
That was hilarious, Chemist. Thanks for sharing.
I love the 5 probe sac opening, the sacrificial void rays sitting over creep (which I actually do way too often), and your near death to a dozen muta despite having 5 stargates and +2 air weapons, but mostly I love how you easily win fight after fight despite a 100 food deficit. Keep practicing and every Z in the league will learn to hate you. All of my teammates were asking each other, "Is this real life?" I made a mistake at every single opportunity I had to make one...but the composition was so efficient against his pushes that it was irrelevant. Here's the replay so that my shame might be your entertainment. Replay. Out of curiosity, were you expected to win in that match? It seemed like played a lot cleaner (besides having no idea what to do against your build), although your mistakes were probably because you were using a newer build. The spectators and commentators seemed shocked that your strategy was working.
UofU is ranked significantly higher than UCLA in the CSL, though we are from different divisions, so it was a tough call. They have a deep roster of strong masters, and our GM ace was not yet back from S. Korea. At the time of the match (yesterday), I was 417 master and Tak was ~550 masters. I chose to use this build because my opponent was ranked higher than me and faces tougher opponents on ladder, and I figured that he would not have seen this before, which could give me an edge. I also felt that this build plays to my strengths.
I generally do not make nearly that many mistakes, but I was pretty nervous as my team was on the line...I barely managed my split because my hands were shaking. The poor scouting, probe management, and build hiccups are rather uncharacteristic. And yes, that was my 4th time attempting that build...so that contributed heavily to the silliness. I felt pretty lucky that he attempted a roach/hydra push 3 separate times.
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On January 09 2012 00:51 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 15:35 Belisarius wrote:
I had a game go to carriers for the first time today... and promptly lost them to a billion corruptors, but hey. That's the first time I've ever seriously made them, and it felt goooood.
Actually I have to say, I've never enjoyed PvZ as much as when I started doing this style. It's at the point where I all but punch the air when I roll a zerg, just because it's so fun to do... even when I lose... which happens a lot.
Mostly I find myself losing to big 2 base plays that I'm taking too long to scout. What's your standard series of manoeuvres to confirm the third, kcdc?
I'm finding that if he's dilligent with lings/OL scouting he can kill my hidden probe quite quickly, and if he makes even a couple of extra rounds of lings and parks them outside my base, I have trouble getting anything to the third until I'm starting the timing attack in earnest. I find this to be a particular issue on maps where there's a number of possible locations for the third, like Tal'darim.
And, on a related note, assuming you discover there's no third at around the time your first vray is coming out... what do you normally do? My gut reaction is to chrono a phoenix after vray and scout his tech, but I feel like I'd be in danger of losing my nat to roach-ling without a second vray if it turns out to be that particular all-in... Glad you're enjoying the build. It's a little unorthodox and it's constantly challenging with a high skill ceiling, so it's a lot of fun to play. About scouting, it sounds like you might be setting out a little late. If you have a replay, I can try to figure out what you might improve, but what I do is: (1) scout whether gas before hatch (2) plant pylon before lings come down (14/14 lings arrive at 3:45ish, so plant pylon before 3:40), and place probe outside natural and to the side a little (3) after lings clear pylon, I give them a few seconds to run out into the map, and I loop my probe back into Z's base to check gas again--try to skirt around the edge of the creep as this will keep your probe alive longer against the queen and any chasing lings (4) if no extractor is built or the drones are taken off gas after 100 mined, Z is most likely dropping third. Sometimes you'll see the drone going down the ramp on his way to become a third hatch as your probe is coming up the ramp. (5) except against speedling expand, you can send a second probe out into the map, perhaps with a zealot escort to confirm the location of the third since only speedling expand will have speed early enough to kill the scouting probe at this timing I try not to do this opening against 2-base play because it tends to die pretty hard against roach-ling, bling-ling and hydra all-ins. I suppose if you took a calculated risk and guessed wrong, you'd probably want to make as many cannons as you need to stay safe, make a phoenix to scout, patrol a probe to deny nydus, and rush for storm (or colossi if you know it's not 2-base muta) because a hydra bust will kill you if you don't have AoE out in time.
Thanks very much.
At work, can't post replay, etc etc, standard excuse, but I think frankly I'm just awful at hiding the probe. I always 9scout and block the hatch, and then go ferret the probe away in a hole somewhere, but at least 2 times out of three an overlord wanders over my chosen hole, one of the lings moving onto the map checks it and kills me before I get back in, or they leave a ling just out from the nat and then intercept me at the top of their ramp with a queen.
Initially I thought maybe Zergs were just getting used to these kinds of openings and so getting good at probe-hunting, but I think perhaps I'm severely overestimating both my own ninja skills and their ninja-detecting skills. I'll work on it.
And I really do need to find a backup build against 2base or tech-before-third plays. Ever since I started doing openings like this and Her0's FFE, I've felt a little lost if Z doesn't play the game I want him to.
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so, how should this build deal with a big 3 base muta switch after some roach pressure on the third?
i guess there's no other answer than warping in lots of stalkers and getting blink + cannons, but that still feels kind of weak after already building lots of zealot/immortal and void rays that do nothing vs mutas :/
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What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons
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On January 12 2012 05:19 uLysSeS1 wrote:
so, how should this build deal with a big 3 base muta switch after some roach pressure on the third?
i guess there's no other answer than warping in lots of stalkers and getting blink + cannons, but that still feels kind of weak after already building lots of zealot/immortal and void rays that do nothing vs mutas :/
You must scout and guess if a posible switch is coming. I personally use a phoenix to do the scout for the spire. If i see it, and no heavy gas usage, i know its muta, then i have time to prepare.
On January 12 2012 05:36 XRaDiiX wrote:
What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons
If Z went directly to mutas, you can make damage with the zealot push, delaying, scouting and preparing for the mutas.
If mutas catch you totally unprepared and with this build, you're prolly dead. And due to this, you must always check for the muta posibility (number of geisers, gas spending, and so) and prepare before hand.
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On January 12 2012 06:05 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:19 uLysSeS1 wrote:
so, how should this build deal with a big 3 base muta switch after some roach pressure on the third?
i guess there's no other answer than warping in lots of stalkers and getting blink + cannons, but that still feels kind of weak after already building lots of zealot/immortal and void rays that do nothing vs mutas :/ You must scout and guess if a posible switch is coming. I personally use a phoenix to do the scout for the spire. If i see it, and no heavy gas usage, i know its muta, then i have time to prepare. Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:36 XRaDiiX wrote:
What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons If Z went directly to mutas, you can make damage with the zealot push, delaying, scouting and preparing for the mutas. If mutas catch you totally unprepared and with this build, you're prolly dead. And due to this, you must always check for the muta posibility (number of geisers, gas spending, and so) and prepare before hand.
yeah, i know that i can scout incoming mutas - i'm just asking what the best way to counter them is if i just secured my third against roaches and sit there with a bunch of chargelots, immortals, void rays and HT - those (with the exception of HT) are pretty bad vs mutas so if he commits heavily to mutas i don't know if such a late stalker switch can cut it
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On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote:
Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive.
It is gas intensive, but you don't get it all at once?
On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over.
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Against HT/Immortal? Umm.............no?
On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote: And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans.
Again just...no? You have Immortals to tank the roaches and storms to counter both infested marines and hydras. Did you even read the post or are you just trying to troll?
On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote:What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers.
So do your infestors have infinite energy or what? You would need SO many infestors to make what you said viable and even if you did you would have to target fire each unit to avoid hitting interceptors and even if you did that you can't stop storms or feedbacks.
I don't think you've thought through what you have posted.
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Regarding 3-base muta, the zealot-void push should force roaches or do a ton of damage, so the muta transition should be relatively slow. I've actually been favoring double stargate phoenixes with storm support, but it's very micro-intensive and it requires a lot of practice. Needless to say, I'm not very good at it yet, but I think it has potential to be better than the more standard blink stalker route.
My current iteration of this strategy adds a 2nd SG after I have my third set up and a few storms banked, and if I scout a quick muta transition, I'll get the 2nd SG sooner.
Also, voids aren't bad vs mutas. 4 voids and 2 phoenix can usually deal with the first batch of mutas to buy time until you can build your phoenix count up.
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On January 12 2012 05:36 XRaDiiX wrote:
What do you do when Mutas hit you at 10 minutes
I can split my mutas pretty well with hold position micro and storm can't do much against them. Either can Archons
I've been trying this strat PvZ for awhile, so far what I realized is that if zergs were going for 10 min mutas, they are very vulnerable to the ~8min voidray zealot +1 timing. If i scout the spire with the phoenix i make 1-2 canons per mineral line and place an archon (when possible, starting with the most likely to be harassed area first). This is more than enough to take out small groups of mutas while waiting for more support.
Plus, if they are MASSING mutas, no one is stopping you form switching back into some stalkers with HT and Archon support. Stopping VR production gives you the gas to do so
Thats just my opinion though, mine and my opponents bad execution of strats might be allowing all these to happen though lol.
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EPT
