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On January 05 2012 19:18 Forbidden17 wrote:
Sorry if this was discussed before, I ran through every post and didn't see a mention of this.
When do you recommend getting your 3rd/4th gas and do you immediately rally a second voidray to the first?
3rd and 4th gas immediately before twilight council, which should happen around 8 min. And yes, rally a 2nd void to the 1st, and then make a phoenix for scouting.
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Do you have a gut sense of if an MC style 1 gate expand into 3 gate stargate could transition smoothly into this endgame composition? The MC unit comp starts off fairly close using 3 voidrays and a Phoenix to deny / harass / delay the zergs third.
So you move into the midgame with toss on two bases and with a bunch of rays and Zerg either on 2 bases or more often on 3 bases but haveing spent a lot of resources on "not drones". Since the openings converge at this point it strikes me that they might both be able to lead to the same endgame. Any thoughts?
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On January 05 2012 11:07 kcdc wrote:
I'm not very good, so I don't have any replays where both parties play perfectly or even particularly well.
That's a lot of modesty from the guy who made a guide on 1-gate expanding in PvT more or less exactly like a lot of the pros do now back in an era when people thought you needed to go for Colossus off 1 base. I'm not saying you're going to the GSL anytime soon, but admit it - you at least play "well". 
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On January 06 2012 02:49 General_Winter wrote:
Do you have a gut sense of if an MC style 1 gate expand into 3 gate stargate could transition smoothly into this endgame composition? The MC unit comp starts off fairly close using 3 voidrays and a Phoenix to deny / harass / delay the zergs third.
So you move into the midgame with toss on two bases and with a bunch of rays and Zerg either on 2 bases or more often on 3 bases but haveing spent a lot of resources on "not drones". Since the openings converge at this point it strikes me that they might both be able to lead to the same endgame. Any thoughts?
I'm sure you could get to that comp off of a gate expand with sentries, but it'd be a totally different build, and I suspect you'd need to wait longer and do it off of more bases. I don't think I've seen a macro-oriented gate expand strategy that doesn't lean heavily on blink stalkers, so I don't see how you'd have the gas for a templar+air transition until late late game.
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We practiced this a bunch last night, it's a lost stronger than I initially assumed. I spoke with a few friends and I believe I have a counter to it. Testing shortly
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I can't help but feel that just relentless zerg aggression would beat this off of 3 base vs 2. You're getting SO much tech out in a short window.... I don't see how you survive a 12-13 minute roach/hydra timing from a good zerg. You won't have nearly enough storms to make hydras a non issue.
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Once this composition kicks in, there is no practical solution that the Zerg can deal with the maxed out deathball. No, no amounts of broodlord corrupter infester will be able to deal with this.
Those mid-game timings that the Zerg can do with either it be roach/hydra, roach/ling, banelings, drops, could be very dangerous though. I think it would be a good build to mix in your game if you don't favor aggressive playstyle, and are pretty good at reading when and what the Zerg is trying to hit you with.
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On January 06 2012 03:45 Flonomenalz wrote:
I can't help but feel that just relentless zerg aggression would beat this off of 3 base vs 2. You're getting SO much tech out in a short window.... I don't see how you survive a 12-13 minute roach/hydra timing from a good zerg. You won't have nearly enough storms to make hydras a non issue.
The problem is a zerg can't have enough stuff out to stop with the initial pressure or their tech is delayed. I keep losing my 3rd against him.
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I posted a topic like this a few days ago but yours is just better... I concede.
EDIT: I do it a bit differently though. I generally start with a double stargate opener to prevent mutalisks from happening and to do some damage. I prefer a midgame of zealot archon templar. It allows you to be far more aggressive and as long as you hit the transition timing correctly you are safe vs anything really even a faster blord timing as you get your mothership and carriers on 3 base while taking extra bases. I have gone for other compositions but immortals and voidrays are a little too expensive for my liking and delay your vital tech. The only time I really die is vs 2 base all in if I macro poorly, take a greedy third if I know they havent. Or If micro poorly while taking 4th.
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Here's a close one between Drone and I.
http://drop.sc/85237
Note that during his first big attack, he'd probably have been better off grouping his whole force together, but I'd have been better off using the 3 storms that I morphed into archons right at 75 energy.
Also, toward the end of the game, the worker kill count is 73 to 0 in his favor, but i win anyway which is pretty funny.
I've mostly had success against Drone (tho I did lose a couple to some obvious micro problems), but his friend Sky was able to bust me twice because I didn't have enough gates and I warped in only zealots during the fights which meant that I didn't have storms in time for Z's next attack.
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On January 06 2012 05:07 sofakng wrote:
I posted a topic like this a few days ago but yours is just better... I concede.
EDIT: I do it a bit differently though. I generally start with a double stargate opener to prevent mutalisks from happening and to do some damage. I prefer a midgame of zealot archon templar. It allows you to be far more aggressive and as long as you hit the transition timing correctly you are safe vs anything really even a faster blord timing as you get your mothership and carriers on 3 base while taking extra bases. I have gone for other compositions but immortals and voidrays are a little too expensive for my liking and delay your vital tech. The only time I really die is vs 2 base all in if I macro poorly, take a greedy third if I know they havent. Or If micro poorly while taking 4th.
I'd have to see it, but without immortals or voids, I'm not sure how you handle mass roach. Zealot-archon is fun, but it's bad vs roaches.
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to anyone saying "LOL WILL LOSE TO HYRDA ROACH CORRUPTOR ULTRA BANELING INFESTEDS"
no, it wont. Zerg has nothing that will beat a maxed carrier archon/strom army. No 200/200 zerg army can even take off more than 30 supply. of course getting a maxed archon carrier army is not easy for protoss, but it really forces the zerg to attack and deny a third and forth etc. This is a totally viable composition, if, at the very least you can put up with nearly every game being really long.
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On January 06 2012 05:51 navy wrote:
to anyone saying "LOL WILL LOSE TO HYRDA ROACH CORRUPTOR ULTRA BANELING INFESTEDS"
no, it wont. Zerg has nothing that will beat a maxed carrier archon/strom army. No 200/200 zerg army can even take off more than 30 supply. of course getting a maxed archon carrier army is not easy for protoss, but it really forces the zerg to attack and deny a third and forth etc. This is a totally viable composition, if, at the very least you can put up with nearly every game being really long.
Neural a probe and make blink stalkers.
Kidding aside, this statement probably takes more testing. I'm guessing that there is an army that can take at least 30 supply away - and keep in mind that the only reason storm and/or archons work so well against corruptors (which destroy carriers and motherships) is because they clump together. Imagine if you knew the attack was coming, you intentionally spread your corruptors out to random locations so that when they came to kill the mothership, they came at different angles. Or, imagine you had the APM/a trick which allowed you to keep your corruptors out of storm range of each other. If storm/archons don't work so well on corruptors anymore, the carriers and mothership die.
I'm not saying this is easy or even possible to do, but I am saying that no one is working on tricks like these because in most games is isn't relevant - and you certainly aren't usually expecting carriers.
Also, even if there isn't - except for the archons, this is one of the slowest armies out there - there may be ways to end the game that don't involve head-on engagements.
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@treehead
you may be correct. I havent done extensive testing, but ive seen this strategy a few times and played against it a few times and have yet to see any army come close to scratching it. Also nothing really comes to mind, just thinking about it from a theory crafting perspective.
Mainly due to the range of carriers combined with the strong defense to all zerg units which can oppose carriers provided by the archons/storm.
Furthermore, basetrades are made very hard by simply leaving the mothership at home and then recalling to crush the zerg army. Also, armies that are corruptor heavy are not good at killing bases.
I suppose with ENOUGH economy you might be able to wipe the entire ground force with mass baneling and then remax on corruptor hydra, but it is hard because the protoss can always attack themselves.
I think with this strategy the real fight takes place as the protoss is taking their third and fourth. That's when drop play/muta/ timing attacks are really the strongest.
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If P does make it to late game in good shape, the best composition for Z is lots and lots of corruptors with a little supply in BLs and infestors. If you spread micro your corruptors and storm dodge, you can do solid damage to the deathball. P is still heavily favored in any engagement, but it's way better for Z than having hydras or fewer corruptors.
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Thank you kcdc, I always see WhiteRa and HongUn do this (not the build order per se, but the composition) on their streams and have never really known how to get to that point safely. I'll try to practice it really hard in order to add it into my arsenal.
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This is an awesome write-up! I've been looking for a nice X ==into>> Carrier transition for 1v1s, and this should work nicely
Although, this thread breaks my heart as we have a "carrier build" (I use that term lightly) just in time for it to be removed in HotS
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A played a toss in mid masters doing this build just now. I had max hydra roach, and then remaxed on hydras roach again. Neither army even dented his. Maybe next time I will go queen corruptor infestor? Hmmm... Yeah... Maybe that would work if I have a ton of spines and manage to fungal all his zealots AND THEN make brood lords to finish everything. I'm gonna have a lot of trouble if this build gets popular.
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Yeah, I'm not looking forward to swapping the carrier for the tempest. I doubt tempests will have enough range to hit broodlords while being covered by archons, so they're going to need to be able to engage corruptors head-on in order to fight BL+infestor. And if they can engage corruptors head-on, the MU is broken.
Carriers are OP even losing badly to corruptors. Imagine a carrier that was actually good against corruptors.....
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On January 06 2012 07:29 DeltruS wrote:
A played a toss in mid masters doing this build just now. I had max hydra roach, and then remaxed on hydras roach again. Neither army even dented his. Maybe next time I will go queen corruptor infestor? Hmmm... Yeah... Maybe that would work if I have a ton of spines and manage to fungal all his zealots AND THEN make brood lords to finish everything. I'm gonna have a lot of trouble if this build gets popular.
Sounds like a good plan. Throw in some drops as well to force him to attack or have his economy slowly whittled away, but don't put too much supply into the drops. You need a LOT of corruptors.
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EPT
