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NB:
There's a lot to break down here.
Cannons: I like to make just 1 or 2 cannons. I don't think it's good to build more because you wind up with too small an army.
Mobility: You're not as mobile as blink stalker, but you have flying units and chargelots, and you can plant HT in positions where you're worried about defense. And if you get to late game, you can spam cannons everywhere with excess minerals. It's not as bad a situation as you're making it out to be.
Base count: You really only need 4 to complete your deathball. After your 4th base, you just dump gas into your deathball and spam cannons and nexuses everywhere with whatever APM you can spare. I don't see why talking about how many bases a map supports should be a focus of this guide. The positions of the 3rd and 4th are the big factors to the viability of the build.
The ClashDrone game: That game was close. He made mistakes, but so did I. I had my third denied multiple times because I threw a void ray away for free, supply blocked myself, and didn't position my units well. Imagine if I'd had 3 void rays in the middle of the map at 11 minutes. My third would have been perfectly safe and I would have had a huge lead. I'm not very good, so I don't have any replays where both parties play perfectly or even particularly well.
Build weaknesses: I'm not trying to hide weaknesses of the build. I think this is a fairly stable strategy that's designed to be good against everything, but that it's biggest weakness is it's vulnerability as you take your third. It can get dicey there if Z sets up a strong timing. This is where most of my losses have been with the build, and you need really strong macro and control in order to defend.
Muta ling: I discussed this in the guide. You need a phoenix to scout his lair play. If he goes roach straight to spire, you can transition to blink stalker + storm on 3 base, or you can try phoenix + storm with lots of cannons on 3 base. You should be able to see it coming, and you have the infrastructure to react.
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On January 05 2012 10:56 Glon wrote:
How do you deal with muta harrass? Brood lord curropter infestor?
Read the spoilers in the OP.
Also to add to NB's points by the time you have your 200/200 army, fully upgraded and such, the zerg would (hopefully) have already scouted your army and bases. Say on Shakura's, a fairly macro heavy map, the zerg can send banelings along with lings to your bottom bases if you have expo'd there, or if you have expo'd to your close 3rd they can just pick you apart with nydus's (or nydi?).
I'm sure this build would work in a Bo7 where you are trying to fool your opponent with total change in builds but otherwise i doubt it.
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To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge.
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On January 05 2012 11:02 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 10:07 kcdc wrote:On January 05 2012 09:48 Markwerf wrote:
I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have.
Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
You can do a 5 zealot + void ray push with +1 off of 1 gate, but I think the way that is laid out in this guide is better. This way gets you 3 gates and the ability to reinforce at the point of your attack so that if there's an opening, you can win the game right there. It's sort of like a PvT FE where you delay units to set up your production and then have a production burst right after WG tech finishes. This gives you extra production capacity and flexibility. You're right that you can transition from this push into colossus, and that's a strong strategy as well. It's definitely easier to secure your third against roach-hydra, but it's not as good against a 3-base muta transition, and it puts you in a weaker position for the hive-tech phase of the game. I use both strategies, but they have different advantages. Hmm I don't think the way it's laid out in the guide is just better. I've checked most of your reps and compared with a couple of myself and I notice that I push with 4 zealots and a void at their third around 8:00 average while you tend to push around 8:45-9:00 albeit with maybe 1 or 2 zealots more. I think that timing difference is quite crucial because in that time between 8 and 9 mins it's often when they expect pressure and tend to get roaches up, get a queen at their third, make units etc. A minute earlier push with a few less zealots has more chance of doing damage imo then hitting a bit later. It is true that your version has the potency to keep on attacking with warpins but if you kill the third it's usually not an option to go for the natural anyways so that point is pretty moot, it's all about aggression towards the third and what it costs you to do so. Not relying on zealots through warpgate but making them the normal way has a few advantages: - you don't rely on a unscouted probe out the map or need to wait for a proxy pylon to finish, you simply walk (and fly) your units over. This is more reliable, faster and means you can just make a full wall for your FFE. I see your style is to leave a zealot hole gap but I find this much less economical and riskier then simply making a full wall and busting down a pylon later. - i don't need warpgate asap, makes it easier to get stargate faster which I tend to get up a fair bit faster. (i go +1 attack, stargate, warpgate) - I don't neccesarily need 3 gates that fast making it easier to probe harder in the meantime and transition effectively. - A proxy pylon has more risk of getting your zealots caught by roaches. I simply move them over and if I see roaches I retreat as roaches won't have speed at that time, while letting the voidray kill roaches or proceed with harass. With proxy pylon I've had a new batch of zealots being caught by roaches right away and killed. Either way both methods have their merits I guess. If you're initial probe got a good hiding spot and can make a proxy pylon unscathed it's a waste not to go for it but if it got killed (often happens to me when i need to confirm if he finished the natural), I find it simply easier to stream zealots then to hope i can sneak out another probe and make a proxy. Ofcourse it also depends on the way you make your wall when FFEing, with your style of leaving 1 gap it's easier to move out with a probe while I wall completely when easily possible (like on tal darim and shakuras for example).
You're definitely right that it can be hard to secure a good proxy pylon. If you get one, you hit at 8 min. Otherwise, it's later. In most of the replays, I was really trying to focus on my transition execution, so I wasn't pushing for the timing attack as hard as I could. I've won a lot of games with that attack at 8 minutes, but it's much less scary at 8:30 or 9:00. I have also tried the walking-the-zealots over style, but I didn't like that Z could see exactly how much was coming to attack him and without the 3 gates of warp-in reinforcements, the attack didn't feel nearly as strong.
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I think if I played against this build again, I could beat it. I held the VR and zealots no problem but should have instantly countered instead of sitting and droning. I didn't have enough units to stop you from taking your third and engaged in a poor position. The build has potential, but it relies more on your opponent not knowing what the hell is going on.
- ClashDrone
On January 05 2012 11:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge.
He relies on storming you and trapping you in chokes.
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I'm going to have to do this for every PvZ now. Sounds like fun, and I feel like stalkers are the least efficient unit that protoss has 
Thanks a lot! The replays really help.
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ive been trying this sort of playstyle for about 1-2 months, and its literally the deathball ive been aiming for awhile now. My thought process was "stalkers are one of the worst dps units in the game for their cost" so id rather get immortals vs roaches, storm vs hydra, etc etc. Will try again, seeing as this build has better transitioning than the one i was using before (double stargate into zealot immortal mothership to take a 3rd at around 12-13 minutes).
And believe me guys, the only reason my build didnt work before was because i couldnt hold hydra roach timings. If you successfully hold it and can secure 3 bases, then the composition is nearly unbeatable.
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On January 05 2012 11:23 chadissilent wrote:I think if I played against this build again, I could beat it. I held the VR and zealots no problem but should have instantly countered instead of sitting and droning. I didn't have enough units to stop you from taking your third and engaged in a poor position. The build has potential, but it relies more on your opponent not knowing what the hell is going on. - ClashDrone Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge. He relies on storming you and trapping you in chokes.
kinda summarize my point.
Its not hard to take a 3rd, it is hard to KEEP it however. Recall TSL3 when cruncher just go air heavy style, Mondragon just hold down the R key and rally and BOOM, magicly protoss lost. Same apply here.
The build is turtle heavy which make 11 mins a very early point to take a 3rd. I could imagine you need several(5+) storm or at least a mothership to secure your 3rd and double expand to your 4th. On small map such as xnc this is a good thing bc zerg cant really out expand bc they will have to stay around 4-5 bases period. But on bigger maps such as taldarim, Pressure 3rd and triple expand is still possible vs such a late game army from toss.
I rather rush to carriers on 2 bases than doing such complicated build while taking a huge risk.
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On January 05 2012 11:23 chadissilent wrote:I think if I played against this build again, I could beat it. I held the VR and zealots no problem but should have instantly countered instead of sitting and droning. I didn't have enough units to stop you from taking your third and engaged in a poor position. The build has potential, but it relies more on your opponent not knowing what the hell is going on. - ClashDrone Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
To me it seems kinda hard to believe that you can invest so much into tech and still be able to hold a third base at this point in the game. But i guess i'd have to play against the build to really judge. He relies on storming you and trapping you in chokes.
Add me. I've played this build a lot, but frankly, it's a very difficult build to execute, and I'd like to practice it more. tqkcdc.274
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Noooo! this is so scary =(
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I am quite scared of the time when I take my third base.
A good Zerg will make it hard for you to take your third and it is really hard to defend a good timing push with this "in between beginning and super high-tech"-phase. This is a good build if you are facing a generally passive Zerg player but that rarely happens imo.
I have to admit though that I haven't tried this yet. I will give it a shot in custom games. I love to mix it up against Zerg because alot of them seem to expect quite a narrow range of strategies from P. I recently started doing the warp prism into 9:30 attack build and it's just amazing how the pure fact that it hasn't been played to death yet makes it a very scary thing to face for your opponent.
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On January 05 2012 11:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:02 Markwerf wrote:On January 05 2012 10:07 kcdc wrote:On January 05 2012 09:48 Markwerf wrote:
I really like this sentryless style with an emphasis on zealots and upgrades.
I do this zealot + voidray push in all my games but I just chrono the zealots itself instead of the upgrade. You only need to push with around 5 zealots and a void and you can achieve that far quicker without warpgate but just chronoing from 1 gate. This way you save yourself the trouble of getting a proxy pylon up which can be very hard agianst zergs patrolling their lings correctly. The pylon is also just lost if the zerg responds correctly, ie. making roaches. Relying on 1 or 2 zealots, that won't have +1 yet, to secure a proxy pylon is very unreliable. If zerg micro's correctly he can kill them with just 6-8 lings which he might have.
Not having to need warpgate super fast also has the benefit that you don't need wg tech super fast. You can start +1 weapons before the cyber finishes and put stargate down after cyber and THEN get warpgate, it's faster that way.
As for the quick templar's i'm not so sure if I like that. Templar tech is simply much harder to fight attrition wars with then colossi. I'd rather just go colossi first and then proceed to the other techs.
You can do a 5 zealot + void ray push with +1 off of 1 gate, but I think the way that is laid out in this guide is better. This way gets you 3 gates and the ability to reinforce at the point of your attack so that if there's an opening, you can win the game right there. It's sort of like a PvT FE where you delay units to set up your production and then have a production burst right after WG tech finishes. This gives you extra production capacity and flexibility. You're right that you can transition from this push into colossus, and that's a strong strategy as well. It's definitely easier to secure your third against roach-hydra, but it's not as good against a 3-base muta transition, and it puts you in a weaker position for the hive-tech phase of the game. I use both strategies, but they have different advantages. Hmm I don't think the way it's laid out in the guide is just better. I've checked most of your reps and compared with a couple of myself and I notice that I push with 4 zealots and a void at their third around 8:00 average while you tend to push around 8:45-9:00 albeit with maybe 1 or 2 zealots more. I think that timing difference is quite crucial because in that time between 8 and 9 mins it's often when they expect pressure and tend to get roaches up, get a queen at their third, make units etc. A minute earlier push with a few less zealots has more chance of doing damage imo then hitting a bit later. It is true that your version has the potency to keep on attacking with warpins but if you kill the third it's usually not an option to go for the natural anyways so that point is pretty moot, it's all about aggression towards the third and what it costs you to do so. Not relying on zealots through warpgate but making them the normal way has a few advantages: - you don't rely on a unscouted probe out the map or need to wait for a proxy pylon to finish, you simply walk (and fly) your units over. This is more reliable, faster and means you can just make a full wall for your FFE. I see your style is to leave a zealot hole gap but I find this much less economical and riskier then simply making a full wall and busting down a pylon later. - i don't need warpgate asap, makes it easier to get stargate faster which I tend to get up a fair bit faster. (i go +1 attack, stargate, warpgate) - I don't neccesarily need 3 gates that fast making it easier to probe harder in the meantime and transition effectively. - A proxy pylon has more risk of getting your zealots caught by roaches. I simply move them over and if I see roaches I retreat as roaches won't have speed at that time, while letting the voidray kill roaches or proceed with harass. With proxy pylon I've had a new batch of zealots being caught by roaches right away and killed. Either way both methods have their merits I guess. If you're initial probe got a good hiding spot and can make a proxy pylon unscathed it's a waste not to go for it but if it got killed (often happens to me when i need to confirm if he finished the natural), I find it simply easier to stream zealots then to hope i can sneak out another probe and make a proxy. Ofcourse it also depends on the way you make your wall when FFEing, with your style of leaving 1 gap it's easier to move out with a probe while I wall completely when easily possible (like on tal darim and shakuras for example). You're definitely right that it can be hard to secure a good proxy pylon. If you get one, you hit at 8 min. Otherwise, it's later. In most of the replays, I was really trying to focus on my transition execution, so I wasn't pushing for the timing attack as hard as I could. I've won a lot of games with that attack at 8 minutes, but it's much less scary at 8:30 or 9:00. I have also tried the walking-the-zealots over style, but I didn't like that Z could see exactly how much was coming to attack him and without the 3 gates of warp-in reinforcements, the attack didn't feel nearly as strong.
Well, with warpgate it's virtually impossible to hit at 8min reliably with also a voidray present and +1 finished I think. One of the replays you got 8:10 but +1 and the void were heavily delayed. It makes sense that if you need to invest in 2 more gates and need to rely on proxy pylons it's just harder to pull off. The game against tunico somewhat reveals the problem I have with the proxy pylon strat, you get up a pylon in hidden corner and warp in zealots and then you get surprised by roaches, you lose the zealots and the proxy while doing no damage. Walking them over is so much less risk as the window to get caught is much smaller and you don't come from an angle that let's you get caught easily. Especially getting up 2 more gates before starting the void is just not possible I think, either you go just 2 gates and your push is not as strong for the timing it comes at or the void is delayed quite a bit.
Here's a replay where I open with streamed zealots in case you're wondering about the timings:
http://drop.sc/84929
Also I think the game against Tunico is a nice example I think why going colossi first is probably a more reliable and sound tactic. Colossi add that ranged firepower that you need to stop roachkiting, without colossi you can not push the zerg at all (simply can't do with HT before carrier kinda) and colossi are also great to help against multipronged roach attacks. As it is multipronged roach attacks are probably unstoppable with this tactic, for example suppose they do a midgame roach drop or even a nydus. You basically can't stop it before you lose most of your stuff, all units are slow and except the few voids all your units have to navigate around your walls. Because you're so slow you can't counterattack either, especially as without proper ranged attacks you'll get mutilated on creep against good roach control.
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Wuuh a totally new way of approaching PvZ i will differently play around with this build the next cobble of days with hopes of getting the high master / grandmaster zergs to whine on eu server!! :D
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sounds like a sick build if managing zerg aggression well during the first phase of the game
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Would it be possible to delay taking your third long enough to get some HT's out to defend it? Silver league here, so let me know if that's a bit too unreasonable.
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How often do you confirm a speedling expand doesn't continue to mine gas? I've never tried it as I'd rather play safe.
Also why do you only get 3 gates to pressure with? With 4 gates I can have 7 zealots and guarantee a roach/spore/queen response, whereas with your build it looks possible for the zerg to defend without roaches. I just checked your first replay, and you have 7 zealots and a void ray pressuring at 9 minutes, whereas I have the same units and upgrades around 40 seconds earlier, and with more reinforcing power.
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The early game you are leaving yourself very open to aggression from roach and mutas. You will need pheonix to counter early mutas and voids or immortals to counter roaches, pref immortals. Your counter to hydras relies on storm. that's 3 tech paths. Yes its a good late game plan, but getting to that late game has srs issues
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I dunno this doesn't seem like something very easy to pull off for an average masters player. The defense vs a 3 base roach ling is going to be very micro intensive and my apm is just not enough to manage it. Cool build though.
Its funny how we keep seeing builds that for PvZ that incorporate a mothership so close to HotS launch. Hopefully blizz changes their mind?(i dunno archon toilet is still pretty lame for zerg)
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Can you elaborate on the differences between this and rsvp's build? I think he includes collosi too, why did you pull these out, and what advantages do you feel your build has over his?
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On January 05 2012 15:38 iamke55 wrote:
How often do you confirm a speedling expand doesn't continue to mine gas? I've never tried it as I'd rather play safe.
Also why do you only get 3 gates to pressure with? With 4 gates I can have 7 zealots and guarantee a roach/spore/queen response, whereas with your build it looks possible for the zerg to defend without roaches. I just checked your first replay, and you have 7 zealots and a void ray pressuring at 9 minutes, whereas I have the same units and upgrades around 40 seconds earlier, and with more reinforcing power.
you dont really need to click on the gas to actually tell. You could also scout the 3rd timing or alternatively sneak in their base (main) when the 1st queen moving down to nature and go around the creep reaching the gas. There are a ton of sign to scout an all-in zerg early on. Not even counting the fast that he is saving most of his chrono therefore his tech is pretty much fastest possible for a forge FE.
Again, he didnt spend chrono on probes therefore his econ is really gas heavy as oppose to most FFE follow up mineral heavy early on. Im surprised that he could even afford 3 gates zealot VR in that low econ. Noticed how he wanted to get the VR out very early on so he get Stargate b4 warp (correct me if im wrong).
The build is extremely fragile and doesnt have room to 'take' any damage. As you could see by his reply to my post, losing the first VR = cancel the 3rd TWICE.
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EPT
