EPT[G] Stalkerless PvZ - Page 4
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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[AG]AggressionGaming
Canada43 Posts
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
When do you recommend getting your 3rd/4th gas and do you immediately rally a second voidray to the first? | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On January 05 2012 19:54 Garmer wrote: one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi A lot of players have been toying with VR and +1 zealots pressure out of FFE and it`s always fun to watch. The game goes full pendulum swing: Protoss start with a very strong pressure that is not designed to kill the Zerg, while Zerg has a very strong counter attack timing window. It`s so intense, haha. Micro and macro matter a lot so early on the game. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
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Patjuh
Netherlands20 Posts
Having sentries in it obviously makes it harder to keep producing immortals and bother HT + Storm tech, but I guess having 3-4 is essential in big engagements to split up Z army. I'm not sure, I will give it a try today, but I feel it requires too much scouting information than is usually possible, and the Z needs to be kinda passive in the game, and not getting ready for some crazy timing... I'll start with the replays ^^ | ||
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Matiz_pl
Poland163 Posts
Also Collosus+stalker+carrier is worth considering, i faced it once and was riddiculously hard to beat. carriers own infestors like no tommorrow and without infestors beating collo stalker is pretty hard, also carriers provide nice support vs Broodlords. But yeah, this build looks even stronger, protoss is finally using some more stuff than blind collo  . I'm actually very scared of this, the only way to beat it is to prevent 3rd base i think. Maybe roach hydra stream all the time might stop it as well because once u run out of storms, hydras are very scary here | ||
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GuoJing
France30 Posts
I think it is a really bad idea to "ignore" some units in a RTS game. I'm not talking about stalkers because if he goes mutas, you will maybe make stalkers to counter them, it's not the point. I was thinking about sentries : you can ff or use the guardian shield, both are very useful and good (even if you have a big dps army like that, guardian shield still useful) - ok i just saw that some posts above mine talk about that - 1 more idea : maybe do shields upgrades could be nice too | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
Sounds like a fun build but also a bit gimmiky and relises on the Zerg not attacking you | ||
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WarrickHunt
United Kingdom393 Posts
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
On January 05 2012 19:54 Garmer wrote: one thing that i have noticed immediately, is that the game, is actually much more fun to watch without colossi Actually not many high lvl protoss use colussi against zerg these days. Opening up with storms is waaaay better (very much now when mutas is so popular). Colussi usally comes very late game if at all. This is offtopic tho.. Thanks for the guide, checking out the replays now. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
first of all guardian shield is not really good against zerg. Hydra's do 12 damage and roaches 16 so guardian shield really doesn't decrease damage that much. I'm not saying it's bad it's just not a must reason to get at least 1 sentry. As for forcefield, forcefield is only useful if you have enough to actually make a wall which usually requires 2 to 3 sentries at least, especially if you make them. The gas cost for that is quite detrimental if you want to tech to some other tech quickly. Forcefield also get's bad if a large portion of your army is in zealots, the usual trick with ff against roaches is to wall of part of the zerg army so only a small portion of the roaches are doing damage. If you have many zealots then even the roaches behind the wall will tend to do damage and the whole effect of the ff is not as big anymore. Finally the gas is simply spent better here, if you are rushing to templar there really is no point in sentries as templar are just the better use of gas. | ||
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
On January 05 2012 21:45 Markwerf wrote: For those suggesting sentries, first of all guardian shield is not really good against zerg. Hydra's do 12 damage and roaches 16 so guardian shield really doesn't decrease damage that much. I'm not saying it's bad it's just not a must reason to get at least 1 sentry. As for forcefield, forcefield is only useful if you have enough to actually make a wall which usually requires 2 to 3 sentries at least, especially if you make them. The gas cost for that is quite detrimental if you want to tech to some other tech quickly. Forcefield also get's bad if a large portion of your army is in zealots, the usual trick with ff against roaches is to wall of part of the zerg army so only a small portion of the roaches are doing damage. If you have many zealots then even the roaches behind the wall will tend to do damage and the whole effect of the ff is not as big anymore. Finally the gas is simply spent better here, if you are rushing to templar there really is no point in sentries as templar are just the better use of gas. Yeah its pretty clear that it would be hard to invest in sentries in this build seeing how gas heavy it is. Also they cannot defend muta harass very well (hehe) and so its way better to spend those on getting up storm/archon | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 05 2012 21:42 aderum wrote: Actually not many high lvl protoss use colussi against zerg these days. Opening up with storms is waaaay better (very much now when mutas is so popular). Colussi usally comes very late game if at all. This is offtopic tho.. Thanks for the guide, checking out the replays now. Errr what? I see colossi way more often than i see storms in games i watch or play. | ||
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
On January 05 2012 21:50 DarKFoRcE wrote: Errr what? I see colossi way more often than i see storms in games i watch or play. okay maybe i have been unlycky when im watching.. i almost only see storms. Ignore what i said then.. =) | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
"If you haven't been able to defend your third cleanly and Z is able to reach hive tech before you secure your fourth, you still need a fleet beacon and you can start your transition to your carrier deatbhall before you take your third, but you're definitely behind at this point." You mean fourth here as far as I can tell. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
Honestly I think 99% of the reason people don't transition into that composition is because it used to be a lot weaker against the old NP. NP is actually REALLY bad against carriers now, and you can easily deal with hydras, infestors, and corrupters. On January 05 2012 21:26 GuoJing wrote: everything seems good except i disagree with one thing... I think it is a really bad idea to "ignore" some units in a RTS game. I'm not talking about stalkers because if he goes mutas, you will maybe make stalkers to counter them, it's not the point. I was thinking about sentries : you can ff or use the guardian shield, both are very useful and good (even if you have a big dps army like that, guardian shield still useful) - ok i just saw that some posts above mine talk about that - 1 more idea : maybe do shields upgrades could be nice too Sentries are actually REALLY good with this composition, the only problem is that you just don't have enough gas. Archons, HTs, carriers, etc. all cost A LOT of gas which makes sentries basically out of the question; 1-2 sentries are okay for blocking ramps and stuff, but any more than that and it eats into your gas count too much imo. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
 , thumbs up bro! | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 05 2012 15:38 iamke55 wrote: How often do you confirm a speedling expand doesn't continue to mine gas? I've never tried it as I'd rather play safe. Also why do you only get 3 gates to pressure with? With 4 gates I can have 7 zealots and guarantee a roach/spore/queen response, whereas with your build it looks possible for the zerg to defend without roaches. I just checked your first replay, and you have 7 zealots and a void ray pressuring at 9 minutes, whereas I have the same units and upgrades around 40 seconds earlier, and with more reinforcing power. I manage to see the gas pretty often. The trick is hiding a probe and timing it to run in just after the 4 lings clear your pylon block and leave the natural to take towers and watch your front. This gets the probe in there before speed finishes. If you don't scout a tip that Z is playing standard double expand, you can't do this build as it flat out dies to 2-base hydra, and there are better builds against 2-base muta or 2-base infestor. Regarding the timing, if I do the build right and get a good proxy pylon, the attack is 5 zealots with +1 weapons and 1 void ray at Z's third at ~8 min. I was practicing the build against clashdrone last night and I think the fastest I actually hit was 8:04. On January 05 2012 16:25 groms wrote: I dunno this doesn't seem like something very easy to pull off for an average masters player. The defense vs a 3 base roach ling is going to be very micro intensive and my apm is just not enough to manage it. Cool build though. On January 05 2012 16:39 goswser wrote: Can you elaborate on the differences between this and rsvp's build? I think he includes collosi too, why did you pull these out, and what advantages do you feel your build has over his? This is basically rsvp's build with a couple small tweaks that I think make it easier to defend roach/hydra busts after you take your third. rsvp chooses between a colossus and a storm transition after the zealot/void timing. I also use both transitions, and they're both good. Colossus tech is a little better for defending your third early on, I think, but I prefer storm because colossus/void is a little too counter-able by corruptor IMO. The end-game composition is stronger and more efficient after storm tech, but the colossus tech route (which involves blink stalkers) is more able to do a mid-game timing attack. As for the differences between the build I posted and rsvp's build: he gets (or used to get, haven't seen him play it lately) a second stargate, faster charge, and faster +2 weapons. I cut the 2nd stargate and delay charge and +2 weapons to have a little more stuff during the vulnerable phase where it's hard to stay alive against roach/hydra. But the concept of the build is all rsvp. On January 05 2012 16:53 NB wrote: Again, he didnt spend chrono on probes therefore his econ is really gas heavy as oppose to most FFE follow up mineral heavy early on. Im surprised that he could even afford 3 gates zealot VR in that low econ. Noticed how he wanted to get the VR out very early on so he get Stargate b4 warp (correct me if im wrong). The build is extremely fragile and doesnt have room to 'take' any damage. As you could see by his reply to my post, losing the first VR = cancel the 3rd TWICE. WG before stargate. And yes, the build is fragile. You can't afford to throw your voids away for sure. On January 05 2012 20:09 Nyast wrote: Interesting. You don't add any sentries at all ? Even a max of 2 or 3 for GS/FF to prevent roaches from retreating ? There's no gas for sentries. I'd much rather have an extra storm than a guardian shield. On January 05 2012 22:23 marvellosity wrote: kcdc: I believe you have a typo in Phase 3 - Yep. I'll fix it. | ||
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