EPT[G] ZvP Basic 3 Base Opening against FFE - Page 2
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
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xSuperflyTnT
United States55 Posts
On August 28 2011 16:36 Xequecal wrote: I don't think that's a great example, you won that game by literally 5-10 seconds. If that attack had been that much later he'd have had storm out to easily repel that attack and you would have been in a horrible position after losing your third. He also didn't Nexus first despite the fact that he easily could have after scouting your 14 pool. Do you normally skip ling speed too? I don't think you want to advise Zerg players to skip that. Yes that is something in starcraft that you might find to be an AMAZING new idea... it's called TIMING !! YES TIMING!!! LIke when the evil scary terran stim pushes you 15 seconds before your mutas pop and you are like WOW if he had waited 15 seconds This wouldve been totally different!!! Also All this " what if he did this" or "what if he did that" is just silly ... When you are playing starcraft you do this thing called scouting. When you scout you learn what your oppenent is doing and can adjust accordingly. This build is not for EVERY ZVP you play You Scout a FFE and you adjust into this build because the protoss isnt going to be able to do much of anything, and by reading the tells of his build and scouting properly you can basically tell what is coming and adjust. In most of these replays the protoss do a fairly standard FFE build Whitch is EXACTLY what flush is trying to show you. If you really want to know how he handles every possible situation outside of the limited scope of the average standard FFE type of macro style Then get to GM status and play zvp until you learn them all. He posted something that will definatively help alot of zerg players who are struggling against this type of play. If you think you know a great deal better than him then this thread isnt for you and you should be spending your energy elsewhere thanks on another note... These protoss are able to fight him well because... I MEAN JUST LOOK WHO THEY ARE! good lord I watched the series vs incontrol and it was 2-0... | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I have a couple questions: 1) You mention Nestea and Losira doing these builds against FFE (and I've been copying them as well with this). Someone did a nice analysis of each video that shows that each time they always get the evo between 6:45-6:55. Why do you recommend getting it at 6:30? It's something minor, but in my experience even the 6:45 time is INCREDIBLY worst-case-scenario. I find that +1 range lines up nicely with lair timing and gas consumption this way. 2) Have you found a good way to differentiate double from single Stargate play before the units are in your base? The best way I can find is if I can scout a stargate (off gas) and haven't been harassed immediately, but this is a shaky stop-gap solution, and I feel like there should be another tell I'm missing. 3) Although I've yet to encounter it in my own play, what spire timing would you look for against a robo play, and what can you find to give you that tell early on? How might gas timings differ from robo vs stargate. (I think the rarity of this would be more from the lack of harassment, but if it does happen, do I just laugh at it because I have 80 drones when he can push?) 4) How exactly do you control your lings for poking/scouting? For the probe contain ling, do you have him on a patrol route outside the natural ramp? Thanks again for posting. | ||
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
Its online under . | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
On August 28 2011 19:40 michaelhasanalias wrote: First, thanks for posting this. It's succinct and full of some great information. I have a couple questions: 1) You mention Nestea and Losira doing these builds against FFE (and I've been copying them as well with this). Someone did a nice analysis of each video that shows that each time they always get the evo between 6:45-6:55. Why do you recommend getting it at 6:30? It's something minor, but in my experience even the 6:45 time is INCREDIBLY worst-case-scenario. I find that +1 range lines up nicely with lair timing and gas consumption this way. 2) Have you found a good way to differentiate double from single Stargate play before the units are in your base? The best way I can find is if I can scout a stargate (off gas) and haven't been harassed immediately, but this is a shaky stop-gap solution, and I feel like there should be another tell I'm missing. 3) Although I've yet to encounter it in my own play, what spire timing would you look for against a robo play, and what can you find to give you that tell early on? How might gas timings differ from robo vs stargate. (I think the rarity of this would be more from the lack of harassment, but if it does happen, do I just laugh at it because I have 80 drones when he can push?) 4) How exactly do you control your lings for poking/scouting? For the probe contain ling, do you have him on a patrol route outside the natural ramp? Thanks again for posting. Thanks for the input 1) Evo chamber timing can be delayed till 6:45 mark you are right 2) I will add more about double stargate play later but as soon as u scout with your overseer you will have more than enough time to throw down extra spores and a safety hydra den in time you will be able to spot the strategy before its too late. and you can always pick up hints by looking at protoss' cybernetics core and forge and their chronoboost patterns 3) robo plays come and hit way later than any other type of play whether it be a follow up off of a stargate play or a double robo play you will be able to scout it and prepare for it in time. Remember that this opener is really designed to defend properly against any sort of protoss ffe opener they can throw at you! After early-mid game you can adjust your build accordingly as this is a very flexible build. I will take all 6 gas and put down a spire immediately if i see that its a 2 base colossus voidray all in after a stargate play 4) you should have 1-2 lings sitting out side of protoss' base so 1 ling can chase a probe if it comes out and 1 for spotting important structures(forge Cybercore). It is very important that you pay attention to your minimap at all time for a possible probe sneakout and remember to have your lings on a hold position since your opponent will try to pull you lings into the cannon range! | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
On August 29 2011 02:22 kirdie wrote: I made a youtube video about your strategy for the german speaking viewership :-) Its online under http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OomqJNOl_E4&feature=feedlik. Thats awesome to see! thanks and the op has been updated! | ||
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[EMP]ArtOfWar
Germany69 Posts
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Pandepic
Australia219 Posts
Do you have any specific deviation in your build that can kill those rocks in time, or do you have any good guidelines about where to take the third on this map? | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:38 Pandepic wrote: Hey, one thing I have problems with when trying to punish a forge expand by taking a fast third, is on tal darim I always feel so risky taking a third base that fast because there are rocks blocking the safest expansion. Do you have any specific deviation in your build that can kill those rocks in time, or do you have any good guidelines about where to take the third on this map? On August 29 2011 03:35 [EMP]ArtOfWar wrote: Checked a few of the replays. Not all of them. Anything where a protoss goes stargate od DTs against this? Because this is where it get's tricky uh? Updates replays tags and added 1 more replay showing Taldarim and stargate play enjoy! | ||
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Evoh
United States9 Posts
edit: thanks for the guide! i myself am unsure on how to respond to ffe in terms of gas timings and amount of queens (i used to get the 3rd queen at my natural to start spreading creep and eventually heading to the 3rd" | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
Is it possible to use this fast 3rd idea to max out on hydras instead - i.e. if left alone to drone or if stargate play? the 2 base hydra is very strong, is there a 3 base max out option? regards stardroid | ||
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Melange
United States39 Posts
On August 29 2011 06:22 Stardroid wrote: Hi there, I wonder - since this strategy will be getting roaches in response to everything, and you can max out on them in 12-14mins (I think that's what I read in here somewhere), I have a question: Is it possible to use this fast 3rd idea to max out on hydras instead - i.e. if left alone to drone or if stargate play? the 2 base hydra is very strong, is there a 3 base max out option? regards stardroid There are a couple of problems with this, one of them being that hydras are the same supply as roaches but cost double the resources. It would take very long to max out on hydras. Furthermore, a maxed army of roaches is so strong because you can keep shoving them up your opponents ass and reinforce constantly because they cost so little. You're able to do this because roaches with speed and burrow can be hell for the opponent. Hydras are not nearly as fast and can't move while burrowed. Two base hydra is strong because you can hit a timing before your opponent has any colossi and beat him. However, doing a three base variation would allow your opponent to get out colossi, at which point hydras become terribly cost-ineffective. The idea behind mass roaches is just that you can eventually overwhelm your opponent. This idea worked in brood war as well because hydras were cheaper, but now it's not possible because of the cost/speed. Plus, they take longer to build than roaches, even though this isn't that big a deal. Roaches are just much better of a massing unit because they can survive for quite a long time and are very cheap. They seem to be the most "swarmy" unit that Zerg can muster. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
So I would like to know how you open vs. 3 gate given this same initial opening. I am debating between your build and Blade's Korean delayed Lair play. My problem is this: your build tops out under 120 food (given no harass) at the 10 minute mark. With his build, you can get 130+ if you stay on top of your Ovies and Injects, but without Burrow or Glial in time for the 6/7 gate push. So I'd like to know how adaptable the opening is on maps such as Tal'Darim where you can't be sure to scout forge vs gate core opening until possible after the ideal gas timing for Lingspeed for 4 gate. Furthermore, I saw you go Roach-Infestor-Ling, and I was wondering if you'd tried Roach-Hydra-Infestor with Neural for Colossi. Traditionall Colossi have been the problem with this build because Corrupters can't kill them fast enough. Infestors however are sneaky thieves. Cheers! | ||
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SwampZero
Greece350 Posts
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SwampZero
Greece350 Posts
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[uci] Fizik
United States263 Posts
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Supert0fu
United States499 Posts
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
Got a question , not really just for this strategy tho:p In the couple of zvp's i lost using this build the following would happen: He moves out with blink stalker or 6/7gate push, sees my army and retreats. At this point I feel way ahead because I got my third up and he doesn't, however, he responds by taking his own third and cannon'ing up. I take a fourth and get hive+spire to get infestors/bl out. At this point I got sooo many roaches and on a map like antiga shipyard I can't trade armies because I can't walk into the protoss nat/third. So what happens is, he gets collosus/voidray/gateway out while im maxed and at like 8k/3k. He demolishes me, and walks to my main, I can remax instantly but the unit comp doesnt even matter because everything gets picked off as they stream out of the hatches. How do you prevent a scenario like this from happening? This might be way too general and/or me getting simply outplayed, I dont know>< Thanks in advance tho <3 | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
On August 30 2011 05:14 Sleight wrote: Dear Oh Highest of Poker Hands, So I would like to know how you open vs. 3 gate given this same initial opening. I am debating between your build and Blade's Korean delayed Lair play. My problem is this: your build tops out under 120 food (given no harass) at the 10 minute mark. With his build, you can get 130+ if you stay on top of your Ovies and Injects, but without Burrow or Glial in time for the 6/7 gate push. So I'd like to know how adaptable the opening is on maps such as Tal'Darim where you can't be sure to scout forge vs gate core opening until possible after the ideal gas timing for Lingspeed for 4 gate. Furthermore, I saw you go Roach-Infestor-Ling, and I was wondering if you'd tried Roach-Hydra-Infestor with Neural for Colossi. Traditionall Colossi have been the problem with this build because Corrupters can't kill them fast enough. Infestors however are sneaky thieves. Cheers! This opener can adapt to 4 gate or just standard gate opening as well. You need to scout it and as soon as you do you should put down spines. Since you will have higher influx of mineral income than your gas opening u will be able to put down more spines and make more lings against 4 gate pressure while you start mining gas immediately I find lings are better than hydras generally they are way more mobile(good for counter attacks) and spend the influx of gas on teching up and getting more upgrades On August 30 2011 05:19 SwampZero wrote: Do you ever drone scout vs Protoss? I do drone scout occasionally There are several openings protoss can do such as 2gate opening into forge expansion or just a standard gate/core opening to harass zerg easy may that turn into a stargate expo/3gate expo or 4 gate is up for you to scout. On August 30 2011 05:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: Been trying this the last couple of days and its great, I get amazed by how well speed +1 roaches hold off even mass blinker stalker pushes. Got a question , not really just for this strategy tho:p In the couple of zvp's i lost using this build the following would happen: He moves out with blink stalker or 6/7gate push, sees my army and retreats. At this point I feel way ahead because I got my third up and he doesn't, however, he responds by taking his own third and cannon'ing up. I take a fourth and get hive+spire to get infestors/bl out. At this point I got sooo many roaches and on a map like antiga shipyard I can't trade armies because I can't walk into the protoss nat/third. So what happens is, he gets collosus/voidray/gateway out while im maxed and at like 8k/3k. He demolishes me, and walks to my main, I can remax instantly but the unit comp doesnt even matter because everything gets picked off as they stream out of the hatches. How do you prevent a scenario like this from happening? This might be way too general and/or me getting simply outplayed, I dont know>< Thanks in advance tho <3 You should have been trading your army with protoss the whole time while you are teching up and taking more bases. An effective way to do this is to do multi pronged attacks and you might wanna get drop upgrades to be more effective at army trading/harassing | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On August 30 2011 07:06 RoyalFlush wrote: This opener can adapt to 4 gate or just standard gate opening as well. You need to scout it and as soon as you do you should put down spines. Since you will have higher influx of mineral income than your gas opening u will be able to put down more spines and make more lings against 4 gate pressure while you start mining gas immediately I find lings are better than hydras generally they are way more mobile(good for counter attacks) and spend the influx of gas on teching up and getting more upgrades You should have been trading your army with protoss the whole time while you are teching up and taking more bases. An effective way to do this is to do multi pronged attacks and you might wanna get drop upgrades to be more effective at army trading/harassing Not exactly what I was asking with the first part of the question. Obviously a Zerg must scout the 4 gate. I assume you don't lay down your third against a non-FFE until they take their natural. So your plan is to use Spines and Slowlings to take out a 4gate? Thanks for the reply! | ||
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